Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

Fair and Up air, down tilt and up tilt are pretty fast and pop the opponent upwards. Jab isn't great, but Corrin's got hilarious range in both the sword and the stabby dragon moves, and especially the stabby dragon moves. Neutral B is amazing, Side B is nice for mixups, Corrin's got a kill throw, Up air is completely ridiculous, being quick and killing at around 110, and a lot of corrin's tools are designed to get you above them. They're characters that require optimization and perfect spacing to play well, and reward you with lots of powerful vertical follow-ups and finishers. Corrin's top 25 at least, probably more.

I'm well aware... Nitpick though, Uair only kills at 110% at like the peak of his double jump.

Top 25 is a stretch too. Like, 'sides from Luigi, maybe Rosalina, I don't see a lot of mid-tier matchups in his favor. More like bottom 20.

Understatement of the year.

Corrin isn't spectacular, period. If you're trying to be impressed, move on.

Didn't sound so dumb in my head... lol

Just trying to be hopeful, I guess. Corrin so far seems like the most boring and soulless character I've seen in Smash. Kinda want some sort of justification for him being there. Meh, at least they probably won't be so attached to him come next game.

Doesn't Corrin's sideB kill move come out on frame 4 from the ground and 10 in the air? You can also kill confirm the paralyzer neutral B (you can charge the bite and launch an uncharged paralyzer) and it stalls in the air.

I think Corrin definitely has enough to compete.

Last I checked you very absolutely need the tipper. Like... How do you convince your opponent to stand there? Corrin's tippers are just unwieldy to the point where if for some reason you're in range of them you can basically do anything (shield, roll, etc.) and completely avoid whatever kill power Corrin has. Some kill confirms but they're risky. DFS is still really slow point blank (f16 IIRC?), and literally nobody's standing in absolute point blank further delaying it. Heck, people would just get used to vectoring it down to cut down the stun time and keep him from charging the bite all the way.

 

[TDK]

I'm well aware... Nitpick though, Uair only kills at 110% at like the peak of his double jump.

DK's Up air only kills at 70 at like, the peak of his double jump, and that hasn't really stopped it, no?

Just trying to be hopeful, I guess. Corrin so far seems like the most boring and soulless character I've seen in Smash. Kinda want some sort of justification for him being there. Meh, at least they probably won't be so attached to him come next game.

You say this, yet you use Dark Pit? Dark Pit has literally 0 reason to even be in this game. They could have just made his Side B and Neutral B customs for pit and called it a day. The pits have always felt simple and boring in this game as it is to me, but to each their own. And the FE characters all just seem to be from the most recent game at the time [except the veterans].

Last I checked you very absolutely need the tipper. Like... How do you convince your opponent to stand there? Corrin's tippers are just unwieldy to the point where if for some reason you're in range of them you can basically do anything (shield, roll, etc.) and completely avoid whatever kill power Corrin has. Some kill confirms but they're risky. DFS is still really slow point blank (f16 IIRC?), and literally nobody's standing in absolute point blank further delaying it. Heck, people would just get used to vectoring it down to cut down the stun time and keep him from charging the bite all the way.

It's got the jumping movement, and the forward kick seems to kill at around 135. DFS is unwieldy, but it does a decent job at controlling the space and the fully charged bite [if you manage to get your opponent there] does break Shields while the charged projectiles does a lot of shield damage as well from what I've seen.

Not going to post here for a while as I feel like I'm starting to get into a hostile territory.

 

[Kofu]

Bayonetta's grounded side-b has a surprisingly high hitbox, Game & Watch's USmash will beat it every time.

Witch Time seems to be ended if she's hit while it's in effect. Most notable from multi-hit moves.

Her DAir's landing hitbox is kind of... dumb? Kills super early.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

This is interesting. Does this mean Witch Time is ineffective versus multi-hits?

Yep. If she gets hit during Witch Time, it gets cancelled out, including if it's by the second hit of a multihit move. Witch Time is 100% useless against multihits.

 

[LancerStaff]

DK's Up air only kills at 70 at like, the peak of his double jump, and that hasn't really stopped it, no?


You say this, yet you use Dark Pit? Dark Pit has literally 0 reason to even be in this game. They could have just made his Side B and Neutral B customs for pit and called it a day. The pits have always felt simple and boring in this game as it is to me, but to each their own. And the FE characters all just seem to be from the most recent game at the time [except the veterans].


It's got the jumping movement, and the forward kick seems to kill at around 135. DFS is unwieldy, but it does a decent job at controlling the space and the fully charged bite [if you manage to get your opponent there] does break Shields while the charged projectiles does a lot of shield damage as well from what I've seen.

Not going to post here for a while as I feel like I'm starting to get into a hostile territory.

Actually not sure about DK Uair... But it would probably not be effected as much by vertical position.

You need to chill... Dark Pit took like ten seconds to make, Corrin's a completely new thing. This isn't exactly the place for discussing who should or shouldn't be playable but I think anybody can see that much and we can leave it at that.

Forwards kick is hella telegraphed, and most likely is giving you no space on the opposite side of the stage if you're not being punished for it. Charged projectile doesn't really do much shield damage and is easily perfect shielded (75% less shield damage?) due to the startup.

It's just... Dunno, "funny" I guess that you call Pit boring. The more and more I look at Corrin the more I think he's basically "should've picked Pit" the character. Pit's got better mobility, better grab game, better disadvantage, better recovery, better offstage game, better ability to get people offstage, better juggling ability, and similar safety on relevant neutral tools. Corrin's got... The ability to kill people at specific distances away from him. Probably takes less effort for Pit to just throw out a f10 Fsmash then for Corrin to land a tipper on a decent opponent.

Corrin's design is very dry and just doesn't seem to have any major thing going for him. Even if Bayo's bottom 5 she's at least incredibly fun to play as. Between the shear disparity between these two characters and the fact that they were apparently planning more since the names below the portraits disappear if you add enough slots it just feels like something went wrong in there, and I can't help but feel depressed about the whole thing.

 

[thehard]

Bayo's grab range is seemingly sub-Robin levels

 

[UberMadman]

Yep. If she gets hit during Witch Time, it gets cancelled out, including if it's by the second hit of a multihit move. Witch Time is 100% useless against multihits.

Not 100% useless, Bayo can get hit by one, jump over/roll over to the other side of the opponent, and smack them. Or just wait it out if she gets hit toward the end of the multihit.

 

[Gawain]

Yep. If she gets hit during Witch Time, it gets cancelled out, including if it's by the second hit of a multihit move. Witch Time is 100% useless against multihits.

Not true even remotely lol. Literally all it takes is clanking with the multi hit with a quick down tilt and then punishing like normal. It also moves you back so that you are less likely to get hit.

Saying it's useless vs multihits is not very smart.

And on the subject of Corrin, I think he's high mid tier. Probably in the same realm as Ike and Roy or at least not far behind. He will do well in matchups where his rising fair will connect comfortably, but I think he might struggle against anyone really short and or fast.

Corrins throws plain suck, there's no way around it. He can never do any useful followups and all they do is give him position, which combos generally do anyways. This means he's gonna struggle against shields in a similar way that Marth does. If the opponent isn't jumping around a lot and giving him chances to use his forward air into up air combos, he might have problems getting kills without reads since his speed is just not great and hurts his juggling and aerial approach game.

But we will just have to see. The side b is a pretty cool and unique move and his fair is honestly good despite not having the speed to use it to its full potential, and his up b can kill with the right setups.

 

[Aninymouse]

Normally I'd just keep my mouth shut and be about my business, but for better or worse, I wanna bring something up. I'm not going to read all 18 pages, so if this was already discussed, just link me to a reply and I'll be on my way.

Anyway.

Can anyone defend Roy's place on the tier list? What results does Roy have? Your group put him above a ton of characters that have won tournaments or placed in top 8 several times, and yet, what does Roy have to show?

I subscribe to and watch a great variety of local tournaments all over the USA, and some international ones as well. I've seen Roy do some cool things from time to time, but I've never seen anything that makes me believe he deserved that high of a spot.

 

[UberMadman]

Corrins throws plain suck, there's no way around it. He can never do any useful followups and all they do is give him position, which combos generally do anyways. This means he's gonna struggle against shields in a similar way that Marth does. If the opponent isn't jumping around a lot and giving him chances to use his forward air into up air combos, he might have problems getting kills without reads since his speed is just not great and hurts his juggling and aerial approach game.

Correction: Corrin's throw followups suck, but his/her Up-Throw is a surprisingly good kill throw. Kills at 150 WITHOUT rage from the bottom of the stage. With rage on a platform, you can kill a shielding opponent quite easily.

 

[TDK]

Even if Bayo's bottom 5 she's at least incredibly fun to play as. Between the shear disparity between these two characters and the fact that they were apparently planning more since the names below the portraits disappear if you add enough slots it just feels like something went wrong in there, and I can't help but feel depressed about the whole thing.

I've actually got the exact opposite thing here. After playing Marth for a while, Corrin felt like a huge breath of fresh air and just all-around fun to play as. Bayo to me just feels bizarre and awkward to play as with all the moves to do and the act that you're not really playing smash when you pick Bayonetta. She's just too different for me to play at all and feels clunky and slow.

Bayo's grab range is seemingly sub-Robin levels

This. She also somehow gets less off of it than Zelda.

It's just... Dunno, "funny" I guess that you call Pit boring. The more and more I look at Corrin the more I think he's basically "should've picked Pit" the character. Pit's got better mobility, better grab game, better disadvantage, better recovery, better offstage game, better ability to get people offstage, better juggling ability, and similar safety on relevant neutral tools. Corrin's got... The ability to kill people at specific distances away from him. Probably takes less effort for Pit to just throw out a f10 Fsmash then for Corrin to land a tipper on a decent opponent.

I feel like you're biased against Corrin in the same way I'm admittedly biased against both the pits due to the fact that we both seem to find each other's characters boring and lifeless. I don't think Corrin's the "should have picked Pit" character though. Better range plus better ability to get opponents above them to set up said juggling + solid kill throw. Even if you think those distances are specific, Up air doesn't require a specific distance away. It just requires you to be in sword range, which hasn't exactly stopped other sword characters.

I'm going to drop this at this point though. I don't want to detract from the point of the thread [character discussion] when it's begun to feel like we're specifically attacking characters. If you don't like Corrin, that's cool, and I'll have to respect it. You can develop your character, and I'll develop mine.

Corrins throws plain suck, there's no way around it. He can never do any useful followups and all they do is give him position, which combos generally do anyways. This means he's gonna struggle against shields in a similar way that Marth does. If the opponent isn't jumping around a lot and giving him chances to use his forward air into up air combos, he might have problems getting kills without reads since his speed is just not great and hurts his juggling and aerial approach game.

Corrin's up and down throw both kill fairly early. It basically means if you try shielding corrin at 140, you're liable to dying off the top, though trying to get around shields until then for corrin is an issue similar to Marth's. Landing Fair doesn't have much lag though, so if you can catch your opponent with that you can start your combos off of that.

 

[Gawain]

I've actually got the exact opposite thing here. After playing Marth for a while, Corrin felt like a huge breath of fresh air and just all-around fun to play as. Bayo to me just feels bizarre and awkward to play as with all the moves to do and the act that you're not really playing smash when you pick Bayonetta. She's just too different for me to play at all and feels clunky and slow.


This. She also somehow gets less off of it than Zelda.


I feel like you're biased against Corrin in the same way I'm admittedly biased against both the pits due to the fact that we both seem to find each other's characters boring and lifeless. I don't think Corrin's the "should have picked Pit" character though. Better range plus better ability to get opponents above them to set up said juggling + solid kill throw. Even if you think those distances are specific, Up air doesn't require a specific distance away. It just requires you to be in sword range, which hasn't exactly stopped other sword characters.

I'm going to drop this at this point though. I don't want to detract from the point of the thread [character discussion] when it's begun to feel like we're specifically attacking characters. If you don't like Corrin, that's cool, and I'll have to respect it. You can develop your character, and I'll develop mine.


Corrin's up and down throw both kill fairly early. It basically means if you try shielding corrin at 140, you're liable to dying off the top, though trying to get around shields until then for corrin is an issue similar to Marth's. Landing Fair doesn't have much lag though, so if you can catch your opponent with that you can start your combos off of that.

Except that's not true at all. The throw won't kill at 140 with DI unless we're talking low ceilings, and even then it's not that amazing at it: Mewtwos is way better and look how much good that does him.

Also lol at people saying that Bayonetta is possibly bad. This is literally early Ryu discussion 2.0. I'm not going to get involved in it this time, I'll just let history repeat itself again.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Even though Corrin's mobility isn't good, his movement options from Dragon Lunge and the ludicrous reach of a majority of his attacks make up for this (similar to Ike). Also, while his throws are generally underwhelming, his actual dash grab is not that bad unlike other characters with bad grab followups such as Marth. His U-Throw also has pretty decent followups into moves like up air at low to mid percents (its not a true combo, but since corrin is pretty effective at frame trapping opponents with his aerials its very reliable for damage) and becomes a kill throw at high percents, so he doesn't actually struggle that much with shield as one might think.

 

[Gawain]

Even though Corrin's mobility isn't good, his movement options from Dragon Lunge and the ludicrous reach of a majority of his attacks make up for this (similar to Ike). Also, while his throws are generally underwhelming, his actual dash grab is not that bad unlike other characters with bad grab followups such as Marth. His U-Throw also has pretty decent followups into moves like up air at low to mid percents (its not a true combo, but since corrin is pretty effective at frame trapping opponents with his aerials its very reliable for damage) and becomes a kill throw at high percents, so he doesn't actually struggle that much with shield as one might think.

Except Ike has very safe and high range aerials AND tilts as well as throws which reliably combo up to kill percents, and also has the air and ground speed that compliment his reach. Corrins reach (and air speed i believe) are both noticeably smaller and it really shows when Corrin has to fight at mid-close range or is made to approach.

 

[Vipermoon]

I really like Corrin. IMO a contender with Ike for most viable FE character (not using the word best, Marth is best cuz he's Marth lol).

However, Corrin sucks super hard against short characters. Fspecial, which otherwise seems like a super over-tuned/broken move is almost useless against tiny characters. Fsmash is really hard to hit. Utilt won't hit at all. Dash Attack is less reliable. Usmash is NOT reliable. Rising Fair doesn't work (THIS ONE IS A BIG DEAL). Any kind of Uair doesn't work. Bair doesn't work. Nair works but still. Dair does less damage and is more likely to miss (I LOVE Dair though). You have to go for grabs more often which do good damage but that's all they do (until they kill). Of course, this list assumes the small character (I picture Pikachu) stays grounded which they absolutely should in this MU.

One other big issue that Corrin has is out of shield options. I don't have to explain this one, just think for yourself. Does he have an OoS game? Other than Fair OoS (which doesn't work if you're small) the answer is no. I mean there's Nair but rising Nair sucks.

 

[TDK]

However, Corrin sucks super hard against short characters. Fspecial, which otherwise seems like a super over-tuned/broken move is almost useless against tiny characters. Fsmash is really hard to hit. Utilt won't hit at all. Dash Attack is less reliable. Usmash is NOT reliable. Rising Fair doesn't work (THIS ONE IS A BIG DEAL). Any kind of Uair doesn't work. Bair doesn't work. Nair works but still. Dair does less damage and is more likely to miss (I LOVE Dair though). You have to go for grabs more often which do good damage but that's all they do (until they kill). Of course, this list assumes the small character (I picture Pikachu) stays grounded which they absolutely should in this MU.

This. Down Tilt combos don't work to an extent, and landing fair into combos is decent but it's a good thing for corrin the only super viable short character is Pikachu.[Unless you count Diddy as short].

I've also heard tale of a combo that involves Grab Release -> Instant side B for tipper, but I can't get it to work. [probably because I'm on a 3DS and the 3DS is awkward with the buttons and all]

 

[Vipermoon]

This. Down Tilt combos don't work to an extent, and landing fair into combos is decent but it's a good thing for corrin the only super viable short character is Pikachu.[Unless you count Diddy as short].

I've also heard tale of a combo that involves Grab Release -> Instant side B for tipper, but I can't get it to work. [probably because I'm on a 3DS and the 3DS is awkward with the buttons and all]

ESAM recently released a video showing that you can air dodge right before the Fspecial. But maybe it can work on some characters we'll see (I don't see how though since the frame advantage is still 10 frames against all characters) . I miss the custom days when Marth had a grab release to Crescent Slash. I miss CS so much. Those hitboxes were HUGE, even the sourspot had great BKB for on-stage defense/off-stage gimping, and CS was invincible forever. Sorry got off on a tangent.

 

[bc1910]

Corrin's Uthrow isn't his primary kill move, it's a fallback kill option. Comparing it to Mewtwo's isn't fair. Corrin's Uthrow is basically a way of ensuring your opponent never lives past a certain percent (around 150 on midweights) because it's easy to hit with and safe to attempt. This is a valuable asset that few characters have. Ness and Mewtwo are actually the only characters whose throws kill at "good" percents without rage, with Mewtwo's killing at around 130 and Ness' killing earlier or later depending on position.

Olimar (blue pikmin), ROB, Lucas, Corrin, Link and Greninja have "fallback" Uthrows with kill ranges from 140-160% assuming optimal DI. Toon Link and Villager have Bthrows that can kill in this range midscreen, thus their throws aren't too reliant on positioning. Kirby and Charizard can use their Uthrows as primary kill options if there are platforms above them, otherwise they join the fallback group. Zard's seems very strong but is significantly weakened by optimal DI and the animation is hardly difficult to react to.

Everyone else's Uthrows don't kill until well over 170% and aren't really viable kill options. Some characters have Bthrows and Fthrows that kill decently, but these are highly dependent on positioning and Bthrows in particular are telegraphed. You can see how Corrin is actually well above average in this area, he just shouldn't be relying on Uthrow as his main kill option.

Worth noting that Wii Fit's deep breathing Uthrow kills at around the same percents as Corrin's, but is obviously hampered by having to get the deep breathing charge and then hit someone with it. If you're playing a character with good mobility it's not too hard to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[DunnoBro]

ESAM recently released a video showing that you can air dodge right before the Fspecial. But maybe it can work on some characters we'll see (I don't see how though since the frame advantage is still 10 frames against all characters) . I miss the custom days when Marth had a grab release to Crescent Slash. I miss CS so much. Those hitboxes were HUGE, even the sourspot had great BKB for on-stage defense/off-stage gimping, and CS was invincible forever. Sorry got off on a tangent.

The grab release is still a 50/50, they have to buffer to the airdodge and do it in the ground. It seems pretty intentional to me.

Also, I take back what I said about Bayo's smashes. The hitboxes getting disabled on hit makes them significantly less effective for punishing dragon punches. They do work vs traditional nairs but landing or lingering aerials beat them. This also seems obviously intended since she has witch time to challenge those moves with.

Currently the only thing holding bayo back is her neutral. She'll never crack top 5 due to it, no matter how consistent she gets at killing, she's still a big slow target with poor anti-rushdown options against characters just looking for grabs/projectile pokes anyway.

Her actual recovery is only high tier, about mario tier. Not really directly challengeable and there's almost always a correct, safe way to recover but still can be put into bad spots.

Her LEDGE options though are top tier. She can't easily be ledge trumped and has a flip kick to return to neutral with.

I haven't done any in-depth analysis, but it seems likely she'll lose hard to sheik, diddy, pikachu, and villager is likely among her worst. (Fsmash easily snipes her recovery options)

She likely does well vs rosa due to full sideb/dash attack/fthrow uprooting luma. Fox gets edgeguarded to hell and can't really deal with witch time effectively. Mario probably loses due to damage output hindered by witch time, and her better killing ability. Ness gets gutted by bullet arts, and dsmash/dair.

Meta's still young and these are just initial observations, but I'd place her at minimum B tier. Highest is right below Ryu. Even if she becomes as good at kill confirming as him, her neutral isn't that much better and he boasts a much better sheik MU.

 

[bc1910]

I agree that her neutral is far from top tier. She's going to be relying on her advantage and disadvantage states to get stuff done. Fortunately both are probably top 3 in the game.

I think her worst MUs will be Pikachu, Diddy and Greninja. She'll lose to Sheik but I don't think Sheik will be her worst, Bayo's sheer damage output off one good read vs Sheik's low damage output should keep the MU decent. Greninja is looking like her worst MU; he thoroughly out-neutrals her (he can stand below bullet climax and fire shurikens which go under the bullets, unlike Pika's Tjolts which jump up and clank the bullets) and nullifies her advantage state. He can make more mistakes than any other character against her.

 

[Ghostbone]

Corrins throws plain suck, there's no way around it. He can never do any useful followups and all they do is give him position, which combos generally do anyways. This means he's gonna struggle against shields in a similar way that Marth does. If the opponent isn't jumping around a lot and giving him chances to use his forward air into up air combos, he might have problems getting kills without reads since his speed is just not great and hurts his juggling and aerial approach game.

Corrin's grabs are really good for positioning, while u-throw and d-throw both kill lol. Corrin has no trouble killing when tipper f-smash kills around 70 (and is safe on shield anyway so it's safe to space with), tipper side-b around 80, and grab around 120.

D-tilt also sets up for uair at kill %s (around 100), and when it isn't true, it's a 50-50 (they can air-dodge but not jump out).

Sword characters don't really struggle against shield in general anyway, corrin can easily space fair/bair/cross-up nair and be safe on your shield while landing.

 

[san.]

Last I checked you very absolutely need the tipper. Like... How do you convince your opponent to stand there? Corrin's tippers are just unwieldy to the point where if for some reason you're in range of them you can basically do anything (shield, roll, etc.) and completely avoid whatever kill power Corrin has. Some kill confirms but they're risky. DFS is still really slow point blank (f16 IIRC?), and literally nobody's standing in absolute point blank further delaying it. Heck, people would just get used to vectoring it down to cut down the stun time and keep him from charging the bite all the way.

Tipper for sideB? You can impale them + forward kick and they'll die around 100-110%, and that doesn't need to be spaced much. If they shield, you can mix up your escape options. The tipper is good against recovering opponents or out of a full hop sideB, since the endlag is surprisingly low.

Dragon fang shot is frame 15, but you don't have to use it point blank. You use it at a similar range you'd use a tilt since the bite has good range. You can get kills with it at 90-100 fairly easily for the uncharged paralyzer into bite. Frame 15 isn't so bad for a projectile either.

 

[Nobie]

It should be noted that Corrin seems to have the walling potential that old Marth players want, but without Marth's mobility.

Almost as if the Smash team didn't want one character to have all of that power at once...

 

[Mr. Johan]

Corrin can instantly throw the pin out by sliding your finger from B to A, and is faster for it, as you don't have to wait for B to release and then press it again. The DL hop is frame 4, and the pin itself is 2 frames, if not instant. That's a Frame 6 pin that can be done from pivot and reverse with a kill confirm from the kick at 100-125 depending on stage position. And if he whiffs, he can just stand there motionless until you make a move and then react, or if you're gonna try and stare him down, he can back kick to safety with little time to react to that.

Forget about hitting only opponents that just stand there, that's a move that forces an RPS that Corrin should not lose at the very worst.

 

[jespoke]

ESAM recently released a video showing that you can air dodge right before the Fspecial. But maybe it can work on some characters we'll see (I don't see how though since the frame advantage is still 10 frames against all characters) . I miss the custom days when Marth had a grab release to Crescent Slash. I miss CS so much. Those hitboxes were HUGE, even the sourspot had great BKB for on-stage defense/off-stage gimping, and CS was invincible forever. Sorry got off on a tangent.

This is even another nail in Corrin's horrible matchup against shorties. Keep in mind that ESAM's video uses Lucas, a character that Corrin air releases, while Sheik, ZSS and many more are ground released so they don't have the airdodge option. The first thing I'm doing when i get Corrin this evening is binding down the shield button on training mode Sheik and trying to get grab release > Side-B

 

[teluoborg]

Can anyone defend Roy's place on the tier list? What results does Roy have? Your group put him above a ton of characters that have won tournaments or placed in top 8 several times, and yet, what does Roy have to show?

I subscribe to and watch a great variety of local tournaments all over the USA, and some international ones as well. I've seen Roy do some cool things from time to time, but I've never seen anything that makes me believe he deserved that high of a spot.

I'm not part of the BR but if a character doesn't have results to back his placement then it probably is about potential. A few Roys do well in tournaments too.

 

[Smog Frog]

so lets talk about

apparently the uthrow adjustment changed the % window for uthrow->uair(it kills earlier, but the window is shorter overall)

does this affect his viability in a major way?

also universal buffs to landing lag are likely not as significant as . i dont think any of his moves became safer on shield as a result of the buffs.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Corrin can instantly throw the pin out by sliding your finger from B to A, and is faster for it, as you don't have to wait for B to release and then press it again. The DL hop is frame 4, and the pin itself is 2 frames, if not instant. That's a Frame 6 pin that can be done from pivot and reverse with a kill confirm from the kick at 100-125 depending on stage position. And if he whiffs, he can just stand there motionless until you make a move and then react, or if you're gonna try and stare him down, he can back kick to safety with little time to react to that.

Forget about hitting only opponents that just stand there, that's a move that forces an RPS that Corrin should not lose at the very worst.

This. It can also be buffered out of the endlag of other moves / dodges

 

[bc1910]

so lets talk about

apparently the uthrow adjustment changed the % window for uthrow->uair(it kills earlier, but the window is shorter overall)

does this affect his viability in a major way?

also universal buffs to landing lag are likely not as significant as . i dont think any of his moves became safer on shield as a result of the buffs.

I can understand why the Bowser nerf happened because the previous % window for Uthrow Uair was massive and Bowser's online win rate probably skyrocketed to unhealthy levels. For mid level play, it sort of makes sense.

For high level play, this is pretty short-sighted and a bad change IMO. It's a hotfix for something that would probably have resolved itself. I can't imagine people would have kept letting themselves get grabbed by Bowser when they've managed to adjust to DK's ding dong.

The window isn't really earlier, you still need to get enough percent on them for Uair to have significant enough knockback to kill. The window is simply much tighter. No sooner does Bowser gain a premier kill option than he loses it again. Whether the window is too tight remains to be seen but combos with 10% windows are rarely viable, especially on a character like Bowser who tends to do more than 10% per hit. It's gonna be easy to miss the window.

I think it affects his viability on a theoretical level but in practice he didn't make much of a splash after the original buff anyway, so it probably won't affect his tier position if that makes sense.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It should be noted that Corrin seems to have the walling potential that old Marth players want, but without Marth's mobility.

Almost as if the Smash team didn't want one character to have all of that power at once...

See the blonde haired dude as my avatar?

He says hi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bayonetta's strongest selling point seems to be her good disadvantaged state. I fail to see how she's supposed to outneutral the better characters in this game though. My first guesstimate would be that she'll lose to characters with god-tier neutral games [Sheik, Diddy] and characters with murderous advantaged states that are strong enough to bypass even some of the most powerful defensive options [ZSS, Fox, MK]. Unless Witch Time turns out to be a somewhat reliable tool in neutral I don't think she'll be among the better characters in the game.

Corrin doesn't seem to be particularly good. I agree that she's competing with Ike as the best FE representant as Vipermoon said. Her overall toolkit is just ... OK but she has a very good projectile and her fsmash could turn out to be a bit problematic. I see her as a potentially amazing doubles character though, like Cloud.

 

[Nobie]

See the blonde haired dude as my avatar?

He says hi.

At the very least Blonde Sword Man's giant fair isn't frame 6.

 

[Radical Larry]

If an attack can lead up into two powerful attacks, the character who has it is powerful.
Witch Time > U-Smash > U-Smash is very potent...

But I smell a broken doubles character in the game. Now in PvP, Bayonetta's alright, but in Doubles, if Bayonetta pairs with Ganondorf, Link, Ike, Little Mac or Bowser, for example, the opponents they're going against are going to be KO'd by the time Witch Time is over! Bayonetta can get 2 Smash Attacks already, and if Ganondorf can hit the opponent with a Warlock Punch leading up after Bayonetta's U-Smash, that spells instant death.

You guys might not believe me at first, but a team with Bayonetta, I guarantee you, is going to be broken beyond belief in doubles thanks to Witch Time and the right partner.

 

[bc1910]

At the very least Blonde Sword Man's giant fair isn't frame 6.

His giant Nair is frame 5.

Yes I know it starts behind him

 

[Radical Larry]

His giant Nair is frame 5.

Yes I know it starts behind him

(And it can still be safely blocked and/or punished by a character of equivalent disjoint and attack speed)

 

[HoSmash4]

His giant Nair is frame 5.

Yes I know it starts behind him

Lets not forget his giant uair.

Cloud plays vertically, not horizontally anyways, its in the name

 

[bc1910]

(And it can still be safely blocked and/or punished by a character of equivalent disjoint and attack speed)

A character like, let me guess... Link?

EDIT: I don't wish to over-post but just wanted to mention, in response to the below, that neither Falcon nor Sheik have equivalent disjoint to Cloud.

If an attack can lead up into two powerful attacks, the character who has it is powerful.
Witch Time > U-Smash > U-Smash is very potent...

But I smell a broken doubles character in the game. Now in PvP, Bayonetta's alright, but in Doubles, if Bayonetta pairs with Ganondorf, Link, Ike, Little Mac or Bowser, for example, the opponents they're going against are going to be KO'd by the time Witch Time is over! Bayonetta can get 2 Smash Attacks already, and if Ganondorf can hit the opponent with a Warlock Punch leading up after Bayonetta's U-Smash, that spells instant death.

You guys might not believe me at first, but a team with Bayonetta, I guarantee you, is going to be broken beyond belief in doubles thanks to Witch Time and the right partner.

I don't think anyone is doubting that Bayonetta looks like an extremely potent doubles character. What I and probably others will find harder to believe is that Link will be a particularly good character to pair with Bayo when there are so many other, more effective options. Even the Ganondorf example makes more sense since Witch Time + (Aerial/Reverse) Warlock Punch is brutal. You don't need to drop Link into every post.

 

[Radical Larry]

A character like, let me guess... Link?



I don't think anyone is doubting that Bayonetta is looking like an extremely potent doubles character. What I and probably others will find harder to believe is that Link will be a particularly good character to pair with Bayo when there are so many other, more effective options. Even the Ganondorf example makes more sense since Witch Time + (Aerial/Reverse) Warlock Punch is brutal. You don't need to drop Link into every post.

I was going to say Captain Falcon or Sheik, actually.

...

As for the second one, I'm actually serious about Link being an example. His F-Air deals 24% damage, has impressive range and can be used on an opponent again before Bayonetta gets the time to hit with her second U-Smash. That's either the equivalent of around 80% damage or a death combo in doubles. If not that, Link still has a plethora of somewhat fast attacks that aid Bayonetta's Witch Time out, but Link's F-Air (thanks to how slow down physics work) would be a great option and Link could be one of Bayonetta's better partners.

Ganondorf on the other hand, if Bayonetta uses Witch Time and any combo that leads to the opponent getting around 10% damage, yes, a reverse Warlock Punch is doom for the opponent.

A partner that can't kill with their attacks or rack up as much damage, like Diddy or Sheik, or even Sonic, won't be effective to use alongside Bayonetta in doubles. Witch Time + characters with low damage/bad kill moves will not work out well, so a character like a heavy or super heavy would work out wonders for Bayonetta, as primary examples. Characters with high damaging attacks, like Marth, Roy (he's pretty good with Bayo, IMO) or Toon Link, or characters with deadly attacks that have some high damage, like Falco or Palutena, are also good.

It's just my opinion and we'd have to see what happens, but I swear the heavies + Bayonetta will be a deadly combo in doubles matches.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can understand why the Bowser nerf happened because the previous % window for Uthrow Uair was massive and Bowser's online win rate probably skyrocketed to unhealthy levels. For mid level play, it sort of makes sense.

For high level play, this is pretty short-sighted and a bad change IMO. It's a hotfix for something that would probably have resolved itself. I can't imagine people would have kept letting themselves get grabbed by Bowser when they've managed to adjust to DK's ding dong.

The window isn't really earlier, you still need to get enough percent on them for Uair to have significant enough knockback to kill. The window is simply much tighter. No sooner does Bowser gain a premier kill option than he loses it again. Whether the window is too tight remains to be seen but combos with 10% windows are rarely viable, especially on a character like Bowser who tends to do more than 10% per hit. It's gonna be easy to miss the window.

I think it affects his viability on a theoretical level but in practice he didn't make much of a splash after the original buff anyway, so it probably won't affect his tier position if that makes sense.

Bowser has 2 kill throws and Side-B. He won't have issues ending stocks at higher %s. Uthrow mattered more for damage racking, though of course it is a negative since Side-B hitbox is small and F/Bthrows don't kill as fast and depend on stage position. He won't go back into bottom tier, no worse than low mid, since his glaring inability to combo and build damage quickly at low %s in tandem with how easily the opposite was done to him was the main issue. Bowser didn't need the nerf and shouldn't have gotten it, but the kill confirm was never the most important part of the buff, as he still now gets 20-30% off a grab + favorable position instead of 12%.

 

[Radical Larry]

Bowser has 2 kill throws and Side-B. He won't have issues ending stocks at higher %s. Uthrow mattered more for damage racking, though of course it is a negative since Side-B hitbox is small and F/Bthrows don't kill as fast and depend on stage position. He won't go back into bottom tier, no worse than low mid, since his glaring inability to combo and build damage quickly at low %s in tandem with how easily the opposite was done to him was the main issue. Bowser didn't need the nerf and shouldn't have gotten it, but the kill confirm was never the most important part of the buff, as he still now gets 20-30% off a grab + favorable position instead of 12%.

You do know he can still get 42% off a U-Throw > aerial Whirling Fortress, right? Bowser will have no trouble getting his damage racking up, and as for the nerf, Bowser having a tighter window isn't bad...since the window isn't even significant! Most opponents will die before they get too far away anyways, so the window being tightened has no effect; the 'nerf' doesn't matter even in competitive play.

Can you still kill? Yes. Can you still rack up hefty damage? Yes. Can you still do the same thing you could? Yes.
Does the nerf matter? No.
Will the nerf make him worse as a character? No.

What's the big deal of having one insignificant nerf?