Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

R.O.B. seems good against bayo

 

[ligersandtigons]

I think the main reason why Ally switched to ROB was because ROB has a better grab reward rather than Mario and Ally was getting a lot of grabs on Tyroy, he was just wasn't able to close out.

But who knows, maybe Ally does believe ROB has a good matchup against Bayo

 

[Thinkaman]

I promised I'd post a bit about why people are underrating the Cloud LB charge speed nerf.

Please note that I'm not saying it is a huge change, just that it is bigger than most people are writing it off as. (It's also exactly what I wanted nerfed on Cloud, alongside uair and LB CS KBG; so they managed to hit all three, albeit in small magnitudes.)


So Cloud's charge time was nerfed from around 6.0 to 6.7 seconds. That admittedly doesn't look like much.

The key though, is that Cloud often gets 2.0-4.0 seconds of charge for free:

• ~1.0-4.0 seconds after a non-lethal successful LB hit
  
• ~2.0 seconds during respawn invincibility
• ~2.5 seconds after killing someone off the side
• ~3.0 seconds after killing someone via inability to recover
• ~4.0 seconds after killing someone off the top

Let's use 3.0 seconds of free charge as a base case example. In this case, Cloud real combat charge time increased from 3.0 to 3.7 seconds. That's a much more significant difference, literally about twice as much.


But wait, there's more! This doesn't just mean that Cloud gets fewer offensive LB uses to throw out. It also means that the window in which Cloud does not have access to LB up-b is almost 25% bigger.

Cloud isn't just hitting you with LB CS less, he's also potentially getting gimped more.


Again, not a huge change, but definitely non-trivial and definitely Cloud's biggest nerf. Maybe if people stop taking Cloud to Smashville, it would actually matter.

 

[C0rvus]

You only get 1 ban, and I want to ban Battlefield. You just can't beat ol' Cloud.

 

[Megamang]

As megaman, I don't mind the battlefield so much vs Cloud, and prefer it to 1) him getting free limit charge 2) him being saved by the platform. This is especially true since you can't use the platform on stage vs him, or you'll die to 1000 upairs.

Also, since he is going to explode you to death, but might be killed by edgeguards, I like big blastzones. If you send him so far horizontally that he would have died on other stages, you have a decent chance of ending him there anyways, whereas you get to survive those hits. This isn't worth it as a lighter character, but as megaman... I at least prefer it to smashville.

 

[Nobie]

Thinkaman I recall you mentioning way back that Meta Knight is Little Mac's nightmare matchup, and that was actually BEFORE players discovered the ladder combo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman I recall you mentioning way back that Meta Knight is Little Mac's nightmare matchup, and that was actually BEFORE players discovered the ladder combo.

Yup!

We're now back to nightmare status, down from DEFCON Armageddon.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yup!

We're now back to nightmare status, down from DEFCON Armageddon.

DEFCON Armageddon? That's....pretty bad. You mind explaining why?

 

[sedrf]

Ally beat mr 3-1.
the shei k nerfs are real

 

[Thinkaman]

DEFCON Armageddon? That's....pretty bad. You mind explaining why?

I may have been exaggerating a tad. Especially because the ladder combo was sort of overkill in the matchup, where LM being in disadvantage was already practically a lost stock, so what else is new.

LM still has dominant frame data and the ability to punish mistakes in disgusting ways. It's just that his normal weakness of having a poor disadvantage is cranked to 11 in this matchup, and MK copes with his tools quite well.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ally beat mr 3-1.
the shei k nerfs are real

with which character? Mario right?

 

[Djent]

Thinkaman Don't forget about all the limit Cloud gets from hitting people and getting hit. That's even more "free" charge.

 

[Kofu]

Don't even get me started on the magical sliding up smash! Sometimes it's great but other times...

It's great to snag people trying to be cautious with their aerial approaches.

Not totally sure why they buffed Mewtwo's ground speed again but I'll take it, especially since his grounded footsies are much better than his aerial ones.

 

[Megamang]

Bayonetta looks way too safe vs toon link. Maybe more projectile heavy camping might help, but when you get 7% from a grab she shields sooo much, and the risk/reward is tilted towards her while you zone with projectiles.

I think Ally has the right idea. I feel the same, while megaman is alright at zoning bayo, I prefer characters that play around grabs a lot more.

 

[Macchiato]

Let's talk about Zelda. I know for a fact that she isn't the worst character, especially with these buffs. Nayru's was a huge change. Now, if she doesn't get hit in the first 5 frames, it will beat out every single move in the game due to the intangibility and hitbox overlapping. This will help her take off pressure, something she really used to struggle with. Her grab ranges have improved, now the high endlag is tolerable due to the great range. Damage buffs to Jab, Uair, and Nair were very nice. Ftilt is a special case. It's now a decent punish due to it's speed. It used to be her most ranged move prepatch and it was even granted with more range this patch. It has the same range as Marth's Fsmash.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I may have been exaggerating a tad. Especially because the ladder combo was sort of overkill in the matchup, where LM being in disadvantage was already practically a lost stock, so what else is new.

LM still has dominant frame data and the ability to punish mistakes in disgusting ways. It's just that his normal weakness of having a poor disadvantage is cranked to 11 in this matchup, and MK copes with his tools quite well.

Speaking of Mac's frame data, are his smashes safe on shield? I had a hell of a time trying to punish them earlier today, but it was online so I can't rule out latency issues.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Ally wins over Mr. R in the Grand Finals 2-1 after Ramin reset the bracket with a 3-0

But jesus christ that disrespect at the end by Ally

http://oddshot.tv/shot/events2compete-2016032053717838

lmao no chill at all smh

 

[Y2Kay]

get dunked on!!!!!

 

[sedrf]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/events2compete-2016032053717838
so that happened.
is ally's theory about sheik loising to mario true?
I'm not sure as in mr stomped ally in the the 1st set but got destroyed in winners/2nd set.
The mu itself seems more even/volatile do to how disgusting rage mario is and how snowbally sheik is.

 

[Halifax?]

Where do you take Cloud, Battlefield?

 

[Megamang]

Nayru's will beat out any move that also has the user's hurtbox collide with the invincible part. Which is a lot less than any move that takes more than 5 frames, since moves more than 5 frames are often spacing moves used from a safe distance. Can zelda threaten the area around her well? I always found that was the biggest issue, was really slow respectul play meant she never got many good hits in.

 

[thehard]

I think Ally has a winning record over Mr. R in this game, js.

Those were some pretty refreshing matches... I saw jab jab fair-to-catch-the-jump kill confirm from Mr. R and a lot more liberal BF usage and offstage presence. Sheiks will legitimately have to get comfortable going off-stage to end stocks now I think.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Speaking of Mac's frame data, are his smashes safe on shield? I had a hell of a time trying to punish them earlier today, but it was online so I can't rule out latency issues.

When spaced well, yes. That was part of the damage buff from last patch.

 

[NairWizard]

I promised I'd post a bit about why people are underrating the Cloud LB charge speed nerf.

Please note that I'm not saying it is a huge change, just that it is bigger than most people are writing it off as. (It's also exactly what I wanted nerfed on Cloud, alongside uair and LB CS KBG; so they managed to hit all three, albeit in small magnitudes.)


So Cloud's charge time was nerfed from around 6.0 to 6.7 seconds. That admittedly doesn't look like much.

The key though, is that Cloud often gets 2.0-4.0 seconds of charge for free:

• ~1.0-4.0 seconds after a non-lethal successful LB hit
  
• ~2.0 seconds during respawn invincibility
• ~2.5 seconds after killing someone off the side
• ~3.0 seconds after killing someone via inability to recover
• ~4.0 seconds after killing someone off the top

Let's use 3.0 seconds of free charge as a base case example. In this case, Cloud real combat charge time increased from 3.0 to 3.7 seconds. That's a much more significant difference, literally about twice as much.


But wait, there's more! This doesn't just mean that Cloud gets fewer offensive LB uses to throw out. It also means that the window in which Cloud does not have access to LB up-b is almost 25% bigger.

Cloud isn't just hitting you with LB CS less, he's also potentially getting gimped more.


Again, not a huge change, but definitely non-trivial and definitely Cloud's biggest nerf. Maybe if people stop taking Cloud to Smashville, it would actually matter.

This is only true if Cloud needed all 3 seconds (on average) of charge time to actually get full Limit. Remember that Cloud's Limit charge requirement didn't change for damage taken and received--if Cloud has already been hit/hit people enough to get half or more of his meter when he gets his free charge time, then 3 seconds charges the rest no matter what, meaning that the charge time nerf actually increased his combat charge time from 0.0 to 0.0 seconds, i.e. 0% or not at all.

For Cloud to actually feel the full extent of the nerf he needs to be missing at least 3.7 seconds of Limit when he charges it. If he's only missing 3.3, for instance then he's feeling it only half as much (about the same as 6.0 to 6.7).

(and then if he charges first and then has to get hit to fill the rest this means that he's taking an extra hit before he gets his limit, which is indeed a real nerf)

 

[Big-Cat]

Nayru's will beat out any move that also has the user's hurtbox collide with the invincible part. Which is a lot less than any move that takes more than 5 frames, since moves more than 5 frames are often spacing moves used from a safe distance. Can zelda threaten the area around her well? I always found that was the biggest issue, was really slow respectul play meant she never got many good hits in.

I think the issue is that most moves will beat out that five frame startup for the invincibility. Just bringing to frame 3 could be a game changer for her.

 

[Zelder]

Top 8 of Midwest Mayhem

1) Ally:

2) LLL | Mr. R:

3) E2C | Tyroy :

4) Smashfactor Hyuga:

5) Pulse | Zinoto:

5) GGA. Nite:

7) UR | Greenbeast:

7) MJG:


That's a sexy top 8, right there.

Edit: if anyone wants to suss out the top 32, go nuts: http://e2c.challonge.com/MM1Top32

 

[Megamang]

Yea, or simply just outspace it and be safe. For me, it also comes down to risk/reward. If you manage to interrupt their attack using Nayru's love, you get a mediocre hit with almost zero follow up potential, at least in most situations. On the other hand, someone with a decently ranged smash attack (almost all of the cast...) can charge up a punish and let her have it. Basically, it can do less than 10 damage if it stops an attack, and has the punishability of most smashes (FAF 60). Often the smash itself makes it safer, but if you fail to connect the hitbox of Nayru's if offers almost no protection, so 'recovery' isn't as relevant as, say, a f-smash that covers your front.


That said, the reflect frames are generous. It certainly demands respect wrt shadow ball, and most of megaman's projectiles. Lemons are always nice since double lemon is self-protecting from reflectors, but you basically can't do fsmash traps. As mewtwo it isn't a free landing punish. So, the interrupting stuff is just a nice ish bonus for a reflector, rather than a main purpose tool. Of course, with mediocre tools, you start to look for usage when there may not be some. I've always maintained that Zelda would be much better with Palutena's fair. She wouldn't have to work so hard to use aerials to zone, and they wouldn't just randomly fail. At the same time, when you really needed a huge power hit for shield pressure or for an early kill/ledgeguard situation, you could RAR it. Its not like zelda is mixing it up/pressuring with landing jabs or grabs. Though, she could with Palutena's fair. Really well. That fair -> jab works pretty well, and Zelda's jab is stronger, less mixups, but safer. It'd be interesting. Certainly more interesting than the move demanding respect, but giving you almost nothing if your opponent does respect it.

 

[FullMoon]

So if you ever needed proof that SSHC is pretty silly against Bayo

 

[Big-Cat]

It's so weird to hear Atsuko Tanaka instead of Helena Taylor.

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Hirosuma 3 Info Dump

Bracket (translated by juddy96 ): http://challonge.com/Hirosuma3T

Spoiler: Upsets

FILIP 2-0 Kie
This one wasn't such a shock, as FILIP has won this matchup before (though Kie has also beaten Ron). FILIP outplayed his opponent game 1 and was aided by a very early SD game 2.

Depuzo 2-0 Atelier
I hadn't realized just how badly D3 bodies Luma; bair literally sends her flying, and Gordos also seem annoying. Having multiple jumps also helps vs. uair traps even with his garbage air speed.

Nasubi 2-0 Ron
People used to talk about how Wario won this matchup back when Luigi was seen everywhere. Waft turned out to be critical in sealing Nasubi game 1, and game 2 ended with some impressive edgeguarding.

Ri-ma 2-1 9B
Ri-ma just lost to another Bayo player at Shulla-bra VI last night, and Hyuga just got double-eliminated by Tyroy earlier today. Just when this matchup was appearing hopeless, Ri-ma upped the patience, taking one match within seconds of a timeout. It's good to know that TL can still win this so long as he can hold a lead.

ikep 2-0 Ri-ma
OK, maybe I called this one too soon. 9B lost to TL when he played Ryu as well. Could this wind up being an atrocious matchup masked by a specific player weakness? Definitely keep an eye on Bayo vs. TL going forward. As one final piece of data, Ri-ma lost the rematch vs. 9B 0-2; I'm not sure what that means.

ikep 2-0 9B
This one was less exciting than it sounds. 9B was winning game 1 soundly when he SD'd at 0% on his final stock. Game 2 was as $5.99 as anything you've ever seen. A disappointing finish for one of Japan's best players.

Spoiler: Results

1) ikep
2) Nasubi
3) 9B
4) Ri-ma
5) FILIP
5) Lagnel
7) Mizero
7) Ron

EDIT: I'm updating this post as the night moves on. All VODs should be on SHI-Gaming's channel tomorrow.

 

[Megamang]

I feel like SSHC is obviously a mistake at this point, it looks so silly and is a totally unique function. I mean, its logical that hitstun isn't an escapable situation. Of course, you can airdodge before you can leave hitstun with other actions, but they did this (quite intelligently in my opinion) to create lots of 50/50 situations, and to make strings more fluid (Without having to choose to try and airdodge to risk punishment or try a different option, every combo escape would be a jab or shield on the ground, and a jump away airdodge in the air. Now, dodging is faster but if you have time to jump you consider retaliation. I like it)... but besides those exception, nothing that I know of can escape hitstun. So this is a glitch, right?

It doesn't matter for morality purposes, since smashers should use whatever tool they have the opportunity to use, but in a game that is being patched... I think its really up to the developers to find a way to do it without changing something fundamental about Shadow Sneak, whatever is causing this to happen. If they find a way, I'd consider SSHC gone ASAP. However, the more it is used and abused, the more they care to try and do this. If its everywhere on vine, or happens in the finals of a japanese major, i'd consider it mega gone. I kinda liked the slippery water ninja having a way to escape combos no one else can, it fits in... and it'd be fine, if it didn't outright kill you so early and instead just escaped. I kinda rambled on there about nothing, but I guess what im saying is, enjoy your SSHC while you can, I don't think its gonna be in the final build unless it is really hard to remove, or (extremely unlikely) the developers don't know about it, and it slides under the radar. I guess there is a possibility it is on purpose, but meh... It doesn't add an interesting situation in its most problematic uses, where it can be baited sometimes, it just outright kills bayo and MK for trying their normal stuff.


Djent I don't follow the japanese scene too closely, but those upsets sound insane! Is there a way I can see a VOD of those matches soon? Thanks for the updates. Wario beating Luigi doesn't surprise me that much, while Luigi hits harder, Wario dances around him... and mobility always, always becomes more important as a game matures. Its one of the reasons I believe m2 is underrated right now.

As for the penguin beating Rosa, I don't even have ideas on this. I'd imagine weight played a role as well? DDD is a rather hard character to kill off the top.

 

[FallofBrawl]

SSHC has stood the test of time, the dev team has removed far more obscure exploits, it's not hard to patch up if they didn't like it. I think it's intentional.

 

[ReroRero]

ayy lmao

The video has been deleted what does it show ?

Yes Roy is low tier, if you ask me and many others.
Poor design + lack of results = low tier in my book

Spoiler

Hehehehe

 

[HoSmash4]

At this point, Sheiks design of 'not being able to kill at all' is a really big weaknesses because of rage. Sheik has to outplay the opponent 8/10 times now just for the game to be even. Her design just isn't optimal for smash 4 anymore.

Light, can't kill off grab, no kill moves to space safely in neutral, horrible smash attacks. Rage is going to end sheik.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's talk about Zelda. I know for a fact that she isn't the worst character, especially with these buffs. Nayru's was a huge change. Now, if she doesn't get hit in the first 5 frames, it will beat out every single move in the game due to the intangibility and hitbox overlapping. This will help her take off pressure, something she really used to struggle with. Her grab ranges have improved, now the high endlag is tolerable due to the great range. Damage buffs to Jab, Uair, and Nair were very nice. Ftilt is a special case. It's now a decent punish due to it's speed. It used to be her most ranged move prepatch and it was even granted with more range this patch. It has the same range as Marth's Fsmash.

What Zelda got were nice quality of life buffs, but far from ones that actually helped to solve or counterbalance her issues.

Even with the new intangibility Nayru's still is very unsafe on shield and punishable in general thanks to the move's endlag. Forward tilt is better than it was before, I'll give you that. Damage buffs were nice... but she had high damage output already. It's weird how the balance team kept doing this change over numerous patches for characters or despite them having way more prevalent issues at hand, though the recent patch was nice for Ganon overall.

If you ask me, Zelda isn't the absolute worst but she's definitely going to be still staying low throughout the meta for an almost complete lack of rep in majors and a rather small playerbase (she's bottom 10 on Smashboards' tournament rankings). Her flaws are just way too detrimental to her as a character to compete consistently at top level, and it can be attributed to her moveset staying the same throughout all the Smash games even when it's rather poorly conceived.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

is ally's theory about sheik loising to mario true?
I'm not sure as in mr stomped ally in the the 1st set but got destroyed in winners/2nd set.
The mu itself seems more even/volatile do to how disgusting rage mario is and how snowbally sheik is.

Ally won his sets 3-1 each, Mr r won his set 3-0. That's an overall match count of 6-5 in Ally's favor. Could be an even matchup now but future results will shed more light on that matter.

 

[Zannabluke]

Spoiler: Hirosuma 3 Info Dump

Bracket (translated by juddy96 ): http://challonge.com/Hirosuma3T

Spoiler: Upsets

FILIP 2-0 Kie
This one wasn't such a shock, as FILIP has won this matchup before (though Kie has also beaten Ron). FILIP outplayed his opponent game 1 and was aided by a very early SD game 2.

Depuzo 2-0 Atelier
I hadn't realized just how badly D3 bodies Luma; bair literally sends her flying, and Gordos also seem annoying. Having multiple jumps also helps vs. uair traps even with his garbage air speed.

Nasubi 2-0 Ron
People used to talk about how Wario won this matchup back when Luigi was seen everywhere. Waft turned out to be critical in sealing Nasubi game 1, and game 2 ended with some impressive edgeguarding.

Ri-ma 2-1 9B
Ri-ma just lost to another Bayo player at Shulla-bra VI last night, and Hyuga just got double-eliminated by Tyroy earlier today. Just when this matchup was appearing hopeless, Ri-ma upped the patience, taking one match within seconds of a timeout. It's good to know that TL can still win this so long as he can hold a lead.

ikep 2-0 Ri-ma
OK, maybe I called this one too soon. 9B lost to TL when he played Ryu as well. Could this wind up being an atrocious matchup masked by a specific player weakness? Definitely keep an eye on Bayo vs. TL going forward. As one final piece of data, Ri-ma lost the rematch vs. 9B 0-2; I'm not sure what that means.

ikep 2-0 9B
This one was less exciting than it sounds. 9B was winning game 1 soundly when he SD'd at 0% on his final stock. Game 2 was as $5.99 as anything you've ever seen. A disappointing finish for one of Japan's best players.

Spoiler: Results

1) ikep
2) Nasubi
3) 9B
4) Ri-ma
5) FILIP
5) Lagnel
7) Mizero
7) Ron

EDIT: I'm updating this post as the night moves on. All VODs should be on SHI-Gaming's channel tomorrow.

finally some wario action, i thought that nasubi dropped him

 

[juddy96]

finally some wario action, i thought that nasubi dropped him

He did... for only a few weeks cuz Sheik got nerfed lol, so he picked up Wario once again, along with Mario.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's two MU charts that say Bowser beats Link. How the hell is that even possible? I wouldn't even call it even. I won't even rant because of how ridiculous that sounds.

Now I feel like people are just handpicking with these lists...

Well, to be fair and square, it should be percieved from a Bowser main's view. Meaning that when using Bowser, there are people that beat you up worse than Link. I also saw Kuma claiming that it was purely from an advantage stage point of view, then again that should've probably been stated better. Link having a disjoint, huge range, and projectiles that easily zone Bowser out should already mean Bowser is losing this at least 40-60, but then again.. I play neither Bowser nor Link.

 

[warionumbah2]

Tyroy didn't take a single game with his MK. MK has no reason being there sadly.

Edit: I don goofed, ignore me