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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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BunbUn129

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Does Ffamran compete with his character? Honest question.

Smooth Criminal
Does it matter? I main Falco in the other games, and he was my original main in Smash 4 before I dropped him for MK, and I totally agree with his rants. They couldn't be truer.

:falcomelee:: contender for best neutral in the game, devastating combos and lethal punishes, and terrifying KO potential.

:falco:: one of the best neutrals and good punishing ability. Mediocre KOing potential.

:4falco:: non-existent neutral game. Good combos at low %'s, but starting at mid-%'s, his follow-ups are ruined by basic DI. Mediocre KOing potential.

What do they all hold in common? They get punished hard for anything because of their physics and iconically poor recoveries. Smash 4 Falco sacrifices neutral, edge-guarding, safe recovery potential and KOing ability for decent combo potential. You know who else fits this description and is also considered a bad character? :4feroy: (and we thought he was high-tier at the beginning? You know, better than:4metaknight:? The past is the source of much laughter).

You know what I find atrocious? :4falco: lost his camping game, but they didn't do jack **** about his mobility to compensate. Slightly faster dashing speed? Slightly faster air speed? Yeah, :4fox::4bowser::4dk: and even:4littlemac: all have embarrassingly faster air speed for some reason. Not only that, but :4fox: has fantastic mobility AND a much better projectile? Game developers: where is the balance?

Sakurai: "Nerf Meta Knight, but give him much faster air speed."

"How much?"

Sakurai: "0.99"

"But he has multiple jumps? Are you going to give him average air speed?"

Sakurai: "Yes."

"What about Falco? Meta Knight now has faster air speed."

*Sakurai thinks. "Nah, keep it the same. We can throw it in in one of the patches."



:4falco: has a heavily flawed design and simply cannot feasibly compete in a major.
 
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Sinister Slush

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How do the different regions in Texas stack up to each other?
I don't pay attention to Dallas, but the top players there is basically Aerolink since he dropped his 200th main for Bayonetta, Dakpo and Denti. With how much Denti does on a local level but does okayish on regional (TGC) level it's not much to go off of.
I wouldn't go off this too much cause they do their PR in a very weird way, plus Dakpo never enters, but oops. People in question I mean that I forgot is basically Mew2 Gyo and Cosmic Cosmos.
Looks like Denti also dropped his 321st main for Cloud over Sheik.

SA has Megafox Jband Espy, rest of SA is bad :^)
Except maybe Illusion, need to see how he does at TGC since the next one will be his first big regional out of city.

Austin is Sassy and Hakii only I believe, not well informed of that city either.

There's a hidden boss in I think Laredo or Lubbock named Meme, plays Mewtwo Link Yoshi and a multitude of other characters, which people have said his Yoshi is better than Wall's so I'm quite intrigued to see if he ever travels since he did take out megafox with it. (the city is most likely wrong but it's someplace with an extremely small scene)


That aside, in terms of stacked against each other from the bigger regions, it'd most likely be Houston > SA > Dallas > Austin
Then the rest of the smaller cities just splayed out on the board like corpus laredo lubbock kingsville etc.
 
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momochuu

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you need to please the drones who still think shes good because they saw vines of combos on FG players and as we all know, combos=good character (see: @Ffamran's lengthy rants on Falco)

also because logistics of ""high tier"" and zero needs that ad revenue from making a long video. i think peach is likely the worst character in that tier. mewtwo is better, too.
The only high tier thing peach has is her damage. Almost everything else about her is mediocre.

Whenever I ask someone why they think Peach is secretly good, the first thing they do is link me to some dumb combo on for glory or a training room combo. Nothing about her neutral, her normals, her approach options, forcing approaches since she can't approach 3/4ths of the cast, nope.
 

CHIEf

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There are a few things that I'm just now trying in depth with Falco, and I've performed much better ever since.

He's a busted character like many others, but I don't feel helpless when I fight top tiers - just missing matchup knowledge. He's no Fox, but definately not Zelda or even Lucina.

Oh and I find WFT being even close to characters like Yoshi pretty laughable. This character suffers from awful range and nonexistent kill power. Without Sun Salutation she'd be one of the worst and even with it she's in the middle of the roster at the absolute best.
 
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BunbUn129

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The only high tier thing peach has is her damage. Almost everything else about her is mediocre.

Whenever I ask someone why they think Peach is secretly good, the first thing they do is link me to some dumb combo on for glory or a training room combo. Nothing about her neutral, her normals, her approach options, forcing approaches since she can't approach 3/4ths of the cast, nope.
Umekii's Peach MU spread:

upload_2016-3-14_22-37-46.png


Furthermore, Peach's MU spread does not scream high tier very much. Yes, he thinks she goes even with Sheik and ZSS (I heavily question whatever reasoning is behind this) but as far as I know, most high tiers don't even have a -3 MU, and I'd expect a high-tier to have a couple of +3's (:4peach:vs:4ganondorf:?). Also, she loses to Bowser? Well, that seems canon.

In fact, these MU's are all over the damn place. Peach goes even with Sheik and ZSS, but loses to Bowser, G&W, Pikachu, and Duck Hunt? All respect to Umeki, but are we sure he isn't living in another meta game?
 
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juddy96

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There's a hidden boss in I think Laredo or Lubbock named Meme, plays Mewtwo Link Yoshi and a multitude of other characters, which people have said his Yoshi is better than Wall's so I'm quite intrigued to see if he ever travels since he did take out megafox with it. (the city is most likely wrong but it's someplace with an extremely small scene)
Meme is from Nuevo Laredo
 

Nobie

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Neutral is not defined as "Can Falco short hop laser cancel?"
 

TurboLink

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Umekii's Peach MU spread:

View attachment 100168

Furthermore, Peach's MU spread does not scream high tier very much. Yes, he thinks she goes even with Sheik and ZSS (I heavily question whatever reasoning is behind this) but as far as I know, most high tiers don't even have a -3 MU, and I'd expect a high-tier to have a couple of +3's (:4peach:vs:4ganondorf:?). Also, she loses to Bowser? Well, that seems canon.

In fact, these MU's are all over the damn place. Peach goes even with Sheik and ZSS, but loses to Bowser, G&W, Pikachu, and Duck Hunt? All respect to Umeki, but are we sure he isn't living in another meta game?
Why does this surprise you? Is Umekii not a japanese player that comes from a different meta?
 

C0rvus

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Umekii's Peach MU spread:

View attachment 100168

Furthermore, Peach's MU spread does not scream high tier very much. Yes, he thinks she goes even with Sheik and ZSS (I heavily question whatever reasoning is behind this) but as far as I know, most high tiers don't even have a -3 MU, and I'd expect a high-tier to have a couple of +3's (:4peach:vs:4ganondorf:?). Also, she loses to Bowser? Well, that seems canon.

In fact, these MU's are all over the damn place. Peach goes even with Sheik and ZSS, but loses to Bowser, G&W, Pikachu, and Duck Hunt? All respect to Umeki, but are we sure he isn't living in another meta game?
Huh, another character that loses to Mr. Game and Watch. Didn't ESAM say the same about Pikachu? What does this mean? Is he a good counterpick character or something? I really admire his offstage game, but don't see too much else from him.
 

Gamegenie222

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Umm... what nostalgia? What delusional denial that Falco isn't as good as he was in Melee or Brawl? Falco is notorious for playing differently in each game and he's been written off as worse in each game for not being his Melee glory days in Brawl and his Melee and/or Brawl glory days in Smash 4. Fox has been at worse, mid-tier in Brawl while being top or high tier in 64, Melee, PM, and Smash 4. Marth's looking like mid-tier in Smash 4 which would emulate Fox's record of being top and high in other games which for Marth is Melee and Brawl. Falco progressively drops tiers in each game and if it continues, he's going to be worse than Zelda in Smash 5. Although he retains stuff like his fast, strong frame data which leads into his Street Fighter-esque footsies and his combo-oriented game plan, his play style takes wild shifts which is why Melee Falco players don't like Brawl Falco or Smash 4 Falco, Brawl Falco players don't like Melee and Smash 4 Falco, and there are probably PM Falco players who don't like Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 Falco. And it's not because Falco's been nerfed per game, it's because Falco's different in each game. The overall gameplay of Captain Falcon, Fox, Ganondorf, Link, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Sheik, Toon / Young Link, and Zelda's don't change as drastically as Falco's. They might be speedier, slower, weaker, stronger, or lean more towards select moves than in other games, but they don't go from insane combo game with awesome approach options in Melee to annoying as hell projectile game and stupid grappling in Brawl to stripped down to fundamentals and close-range game in Smash 4. The only "nostalgic" things about Falco is his notoriously poor recovery in each game and his notoriously annoying Blaster in each game. Those are not things you want to be remembered for. It's like being famous and dying with your pants down sitting in a toilet in some gas station.

Nostalgia fits Captain Falcon, Charizard, and even Cloud more. Captain Falcon's barely known for F-Zero anymore, but is famous in Smash for his high speed, powerful hits, and audience-loved Falcon Punch, Knee, and Nipple Spike, Charizard is nostalgic for early Pokémon players and while Charizard does rub some people the wrong way since Blastoise and Venusaur aren't in the game, Charizard's one of the original starters of Pokémon. This also extends to Mewtwo and Pikachu as Mewtwo was the legendary to catch and who had movies all about Mewtwo and Pikachu was the Pokémon kids grew up with thanks to the anime. Perhaps even Jigglypuff as the "lethal joke character" in 64 and Melee with poorer performance in Brawl and Smash 4, but nevertheless, a "lethal joke character". Melee-known Marth even counts as that's how most people were introduced to Fire Emblem and even in Smash 4, he keeps his spacing-oriented, precision-based gameplay while losing his combo potential from Melee and Brawl. In other words, Marth plays similarly, but leans towards the precision-based gameplay to tone him down from his combo everything Melee and Brawl incarnation. And for Cloud, he's the Final Fantasy, RPG, and even videogame character people all know about alongside DK, Duck Hunt dog, Lara Croft?, Link, Mario, Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Pikachu, Ryu, Sephiroth, Sonic, and recently, Master Chief. He's one of the faces of gaming and love him or hate him, he's nostalgia personified for many, especially Final Fantasy (VII) fans.

Back to Falco, he would have fit (good) nostalgia if he didn't have an identity crisis in each game. He definitely fits bad nostalgia, though, with his crap recovery and annoying lasers. Falco's more of an example of "we have no idea what the hell we're doing with this character". Drastic changes to his game plan, stagnant evolution per launch of each game, and the idea of his Blaster, Falco Phantasm, and Dair in Melee and Brawl are all questionable. Falco never truly evolved compared to other semi-clones. He only evolved because of patches which when you think about it, is really sad how he was kept pretty much the same per game. Granted, this can be attributed to Smash 4's massive size which justifies the copy and pasting of characters which for Falco who wasn't all that different, doesn't really help him at all. Removal and engine-related changes affected him heavily resulting in drastic shifts to his play style. Brawl took away his and Fox's frame 1 confirm Reflector leaving Fox with a hilariously spammable Reflector stall and Falco with a transcendent poke. Welp, that took away his Shine to Dair pillar and Shine to Bair kill. With hit stun canceling and lowered hit stun in Brawl, his combo game dropped and his high kill power felt like low kill power. Brawl also took away his high fall speed meaning his ability to survive vertical kills disappeared. Smash 4 took away his projectile game which was amazing in Melee and disgustingly powerful in Brawl, his fast Dair and made it into a generic Dair while Cloud was given a balanced - arguable - version of his, and his Gatling combo which was really unique as it was the only normal cancellable option in Smash, but in return, they upped his kill power by returning Dtilt's Melee power, upping Fair's growth, introducing his new Bair, and through patches, upping Up Smash's growth. This emulated his Melee incarnation of high power and high combo potential, but that's not evolution; that's ironically enough, devolution because of Brawl's approach to Falco.

Where's the changes to his Specials? Especially Fire Bird which isn't anything but a worse version of Fire Fox and Fire Wolf. Um... Really? Where's the change to Blaster so it isn't annoying to players, but more like other hit stun-capable projectiles that while annoying, can't be continually fired to the point where you want to beat someone's skull in or has been notorious for being overpowered in previous games? Why just slow down his dash attack of all things? It wasn't abusive nor was the startup the reason why Gatling combo existed. Meanwhile, Fox's frame 4 dash attack with his high run speed letting him use it as a quick punish for everything. Why not a jumping back kick? Or this overhead swipe? Y'know, something reckless-looking that Falco would do? Why just a generic Dair? Why not a fast, but weak Dair instead of the over-tuned fast, strong Dair he had in Melee and Brawl? Am I really asking too much? Maybe I am since they had to fit 50+ characters at launch and pretty much all of them were copy-pastes with mostly nerfs and barely any changes, good or bad.

Some stuff were answered like why did Fox and Falco share air speeds in Melee and Brawl? Well, that changed at launch when Falco kept his and Fox's Brawl air speed of 0.893 while Fox's was upped to 0.96... So, the question became why is Fox (and Wolf) pretty much faster than Falco for everything? That was answered in 1.0.8 when his air speed was upped to 0.93 and air acceleration upped to 0.09. Great, Falco sort of fits the whole bird and pilot who are comfortable in the air now... kind of wished his air speed was higher even if it meant his jump height tanked to compensate 'cause low startup, high damage, high active aerials would have meant death for everyone off-stage against him if he had really good air speed and air acceleration. Another question is why did Falco's Fair have 32 landing frames in Brawl and Smash 4? It was frame 6 in Brawl, did 11%, but didn't connect well 'cause SDI. It's not even strong or good... It's pretty much Melee Falco and Fox's Fair of pure suckage compared to Fox's redesigned, works like a charm Brawl Helicopter Fair. So, it became frame 12 and does 8% to compensate for it connecting properly and having a finisher. Also, the stupidest landing hit in the game since nothing about it makes it look like there should be a hitbox unlike Mario's arms swinging out for Dair or the shockwave from Pikachu's Dair. If any Fair should have a landing hit, it's Ganondorf's. It would even match source material. Hello, first phase of the final boss of Ocarina of Time? Still had 32 landing frames which the landing hit was probably there for... 1.0.8 rolls in, Fair becomes frame 10, does 9%, and has 25 landing frames. Cool, it matches sort of Pikachu and Sonic's now. Why does it still have a landing hit? Are we really trying to promote degenerate play? I thought the changes to Diddy and Luigi's D-throw, Diddy's Uair, and Link's jab 1 were indicative of a "No". Anyway, why weren't any of these done in the first place? Oh, but game development time... Looking at a move, knowing it has 32 landing frames should cause a question mark to grow out of your skull. Gee, should a move that only does 8% and is frame 12 really have 32 landing frames? Meanwhile, Bowser, Link, and Toon Link's Dair doing +15%... Y'know, I keep forgetting these are the same developers who gave Roy 28 landing frames on his Dair which is virtually the same as Ike's if it had shorter range and worse sour-spots... They fixed it in 1.1.4, but really? What the hell is Roy going to do with his low jump and a frame 16 Dair? Sure as hell not going to jump all the way to the blast zone and Dair like Falco or Mewtwo and sure as hell not going to pull Cloud Dair shenanigans with only 2 active frames.

To me, the only changes to Falco that seemed good or were neutral for Falco was his Brawl jab - Smash 4 screwed it up -, Utilt, and Reflector in Brawl and Fair, Bair, and U- and B-throw in Smash 4. Note how I don't mention Nair, Uair, and obviously Fair in Brawl and Up Smash in Smash 4. In Brawl, Nair was iffy; it was sometimes good and sometimes bad. It took a patch to fix this in Smash 4 which is questionable considering it's one of the few multi-hits in Smash that have irregular hits unlike Samus and Sheik's Uair or Lucas, Palutena, and Zelda's Nair which hits in a specific pattern. It's cool that it's off-beat, but considering that people do fall out and because of its off-beat nature, auto-link angles should have been a given in Brawl and definitely in Smash 4. Melee Uair was an 8-9, 11-14 move that did 6% + 10%, 16% total; it's basically what Fox's Uair is in Brawl and Smash 4 in terms of total damage. Brawl changed it so it was a frame 10-14 move that did 11% with a sour-spot on his body. Cool, so it's more consistent which is fine for the damage nerf, but did it really have to be frame 10 with a sour-spot? 2 frames slower than his Melee Uair? It's not even a strong kill move in either Brawl or Smash 4. So, why make it slower? 1.0.8 made it frame 7-11, dropped the damage to 10% and lowered the growth on it while making all the hitboxes the same in knockback and changed the angles to be similar to Captain Falcon's where different parts have different angles... Really debatable on whether or not the hitbox changes and even the damage were necessary. I'd argue that Falco should have kept his Melee Uair with damage nerfs like make it do only 12%, 4% + 8%, because it looked cooler and it would probably work better as juggle allowing Falco to always send you in a specific angle which his Brawl and launch Smash 4 Uair did. That being said, front flip's fine, but it should have been a mixture of 1.0.8's 7-11 and hitboxes Uair with its old knockback, hit angles, and maybe damage at launch. Up Smash was kind of messy at launch and it's finally fixed. Granted, some of it felt like it should have been there all along like I-frames which every flip kick has, but Falco didn't until 1.1.4 and assuming Pikachu's is disjointed because of his tail, makes it seem questionable about why Falco's doesn't when his was the weakest in knockback or the hitbox not hitting low like the animation suggests... Welp, all fixed, but then they make it as strong as Fox's Up Smash... Um... why? A little stronger sure, but almost matching Fox's? This pretty much means Fox's Up Smash only has a +10% lead in kill percent while Falco's wins in startup, active frames, recovery frames, and arguably consistent damage. With everything else, Falco's isn't as good due to lack of confirms, but you could give Fox Falco's Up Smash and it wouldn't be any different really or even better for Fox since he'd have another ledge coverage option and a safer anti-air due to the much higher active frames and lower recovery frames.

Other changes were trivial and weird. Run speed went from 1.5 in Melee to 1.432 in Brawl and 1.472 in Smash 4... Basically he's the same between Melee and Smash 4, but was slower in Brawl for some reason... He's still slow, so what was the point of these changes? Down Smash gaining +2 growth doesn't do much except question why it's the strongest and overall the best compared to Fox and Sonic's which I've already talked about. Fall speed going up from 1.708 in Brawl to 1.8 and gravity going from 0.112 to 0.13 both matching Wolf's feels like they either wanted to mix him and Wolf which Bair's pose and Dair's "generic", but same as Wolf's Dair startup of 16 also seems to suggest. Side Smash going from Brawl's frame 16 to frame 17 is just a why? Was it not slow enough? If so, why not make it frame 31 like Ike's? It being transcendent is also questionable since it's not disjointed at all meaning it's kind of like Ike's dash attack and Little Mac's jab, Utilt, Ftilt, and Dtilt? being recoilless, except in their case, theirs don't recoil unlike Falco's. With Up Smash matching Fox's Up Smash kill power, the idea of Falco being the horizontal killer or having the strongest Side Smash becomes moot when he's also got vertical under his belt - and he had this since Melee thanks to his Dair. Side Smash as a punish becomes less useful when Up Smash has I-frames and Bair is a safer. Sure, in FFA and doubles, but then again, Dtilt, Up Smash, Down Smash, and Bair are all safer, faster punishes. I'd rather have Melee's frame 13 startup than transcendent priority and even alter or reduce the knockback in return. Want us to make more daring actions? Give us better Smashes. :p

In the end, Falco's still this weird and incomplete character. His moves suggest he should be an anti-zoner and while he does that and does it well with patches making his close-range game better, the problem is his mid-range and long-range game. Either you have good ground speed to get closer by running past projectiles or you have your own projectile that can challenge them. Falco has neither with a strong suggestion he should have the later. Once again, really simple since Falco could be given his Melee Blaster frame data which had 23 frames of startup, 35 recovery frames, and 57 total frames on the ground and 13 startup, 30 recovery, and 42 total frames in the air. Worse startup, but much, much better recovery compared to his current 48 on the ground and 41 in the air. Or the idea of limiting him to one laser per button press like other projectiles which would definitely allow for lower recovery... if it happened and he still had his crap recovery... I'll check myself into the hospital... Falco has one of the highest recovery for a projectile while having one of the lowest reward. This gives it a really skewed high risk/low reward ratio compared to most characters having something like moderate risk/moderate reward like Bayonetta, Cloud (regular Blade Beam), (Dr.) Mario, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Luigi, the Pits, Ryu, Triple D, Villager, Yoshi, and ZSS or low risk/low reward like Fox and Mega Man while some have high risk/high reward like Lucario (Aura Sphere throw-only), Mewtwo, Samus, and Zelda or the inverse, low risk/high reward like Cloud (Limit Blade Beam), Lucario (Aura Sphere as a melee move), PAC-MAN, Robin, Sheik, and Toon Link.

Basically, Falco with a decent, "traditional" projectile like Wolf's Blaster, Fox's Impact Blaster, or a high startup, low recovery projectile like Greninja's Water Shuriken, Guile and Nash's Sonic Boom in Street Fighter, or Leona's Earring Bomb in KoF would likely push him all the way up to solid mid-tier. Why? MUs where he struggles to control space and anti-zone would be better i.e. against characters like Greninja, the Links, the Pits, Robin, and Shulk and MUs where he struggles to set the pace and not be forced to approach would be better i.e. against characters like Captain Falcon, Lucario, Luigi, Mario, Yoshi, and ZSS. He wouldn't suddenly go 60:40, +1, slightly advantaged, whatever with them, but some of them would go from being noticeable negative to slightly negative or borderline even. Having a projectile like that would also solve the whole "Falco is an annoying prick. Can this character be removed from the series?" The fact the Falco AI is programmed to spam Blaster at you in 1v1 doesn't help counter this statement. Falco really is an annoying prick. Oh look, he can only fire at intervals like Ryu now. He's still spamming, but it's easier to bypass and he's not spamming way up close to you now... FALCO AI, WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID!?


Umm... Keitaro, the leading Falco player in results? Cyro, the leading Falco tech-based player? Attila or BigBoss as he's known who won an Australian (Victoria, Australia) major with Falco? Or any of the Japanese Falco players for good movement? I'm going to sound like an *** and this isn't directed at you, but this train of thought: "Falco doesn't have a really notable player to really show what the character can do at his peak", needs to stop. This has been attributed to Greninja, PAC-MAN, Peach, Pikachu, Shulk, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, and even Ryu. Y'know what? Prove it. Stop talking. DO IT! Prove to everyone that X character really is that good. Don't be like me and type BS after BS. GO! Shine on, you crazy diamond! As Falco's side taunt in Japanese and Ken's taunt in 3rd Strike: "Kakatte ki na!" ("Come on!").

Also, are you War Chief? 'Cause I'd like to know if War Chief has a Smashboards account for information filler: http://smashboards.com/threads/great-fox-hangar-ace-pilot-list.429118/.


Edit: Whoops... typing...

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Yeah, there's also whether or not you like how the characters plays, looks, etc. I honestly think Ryu would be a great character for Falco players to switch, but people might not like Ryu for whatever reason. Me, I just like Ken more. Ken for potential Smash NX DLC, please. I need my Dante's voice fix. :p

This becomes a bit hypocritical when I basically hate main Falco. I never liked Falco in Brawl; liked him in Melee, but in Brawl he was different and I never bothered to learn him since young kid spamming stuff. Smash 4 came and it was the same deal... Then I decided to prove Falco's not trash like people were saying. I don't know if this was a bad idea or not, but now I'm stuck with Falco being my best character and only character I actually like playing. I wonder if indoctrination is considered a crime...


Dude, Gunblade is one of the most informative commentators for Smash. He might not be one of the best players or one of the more entertaining commentators, but he is incredibly privy on fighting game knowledge and connecting them with Smash. Norcal's DC's is like that too and D1 when he's isn't all about DEEEEEESTRUCTION.


There's a surprising amount of players of any character PR'd. There's like one region with 2, technically 3, PR'd Zelda players: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/page-14#post-20894805. At that point, you're probably wondering how "free" they are, what kind of **** they're on, and what secrets the Princess of Sass is hiding.


To make this short: the buffs were significant to his close-range game and Falco has had a good close-range game since Melee. If say, Falco's close-range game is a 7/10 at launch, then the buffs made it a 8/10. None of patches addressed his mid-range game and long-range game. Mid-range is generally something like 3/10 while his long-range is dependent on the opponent, but it's probably something like 5/10 at most since Reflector's useful for challenging key projectiles and there's always the option of moving as far away from them which every character can do, but people don't like doing this for whatever reason, so they start running in and get pelted by everything from bombs, bullets, fireballs, lasers, and even burning bacon and vegetables. Oh, look, a motorcycle flew out of the sky. SPLAT!
Attila plays cloud now last I talked to him and dropped falco completely. You can ask him to be 100% sure
 

FallofBrawl

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Why do people think neutral = whether they have a good projectile or not?

Having a good projectile is helpful, but it definitely isn't the end all be all

A lot of Falco's neutral centers around his tilts and aerial space control. Both of which are not even that horrid (pretty good actually).
 

CHIEf

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Neutral is not defined as "Can Falco short hop laser cancel?"
Exactly.

My neutral against high tiers like Mario is almost cheese. Up close a lot of matchups get almost turned upside down because Falco has the range advantage.
 

TDK

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but are we sure he isn't living in another meta game?
Japan is another metagame entirely.

And part of the reason :4peach: is consistenly ranked high is that people for the most part excuse her lack of tournament results because she's one of the most difficult characters to play well in the entire game. Thus, people see combos and are like "Now we need to wait for someone to do that in tournament." As such, she won't leave high tier for a long time.

:4yoshi: was in a similar position, but he's such a simple character that there wasn't any sort of excuse for him.
 

Y2Kay

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I still don't get why people still think ROB, Peach, and Falcon are better than greninja still. Heck, I don't even think DK and Luigi should be above him still, but they have a good case for it at least.

At this point I don't even care anymore, I haven't seen a good greninja placement on a tier list ..... probably ever.

:150:
 
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TTTTTsd

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Honestly I think Peach was better before the shieldstun was upped because one of her unique things was being able to pressure shield significantly better than a lot of other characters back when shieldstun was lower.

Food for thought I guess.
 
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NotLiquid

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Japan is another metagame entirely.

And part of the reason :4peach: is consistenly ranked high is that people for the most part excuse her lack of tournament results because she's one of the most difficult characters to play well in the entire game. Thus, people see combos and are like "Now we need to wait for someone to do that in tournament." As such, she won't leave high tier for a long time.

:4yoshi: was in a similar position, but he's such a simple character that there wasn't any sort of excuse for him.
Incidentally it feels like Peach generally has better results than Yoshi does despite him having more readily better traits to him.

I suppose it depends on the perspective of numbers and where you draw the line of a certain "tier" but I can't say it's hard to dispute where she's commonly placed when numbered (explicitly referring to ZeRo's tier list and the SBR tier list) considering she still has a somewhat frequent presence to justify being in the ~20 position. She's not great, but that's just another one of those frequent trends of good players performing surprisingly well with a mid-tier.
 
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momochuu

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And part of the reason :4peach: is consistenly ranked high is that people for the most part excuse her lack of tournament results because she's one of the most difficult characters to play well in the entire game. Thus, people see combos and are like "Now we need to wait for someone to do that in tournament." As such, she won't leave high tier for a long time.
that wasn't an excuse for greninja so why should it be one for peach? how does that even make sense? "she sucks right now but let's keep her in high tier. somebody has to do well eventually."

other difficult to play characters are making waves by now.

most of her negatives are faults of her design, it doesn't really seem like her being difficult has much to do with it.

also that MU chart says peach beats Greninja but lol:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENcV85dyvh0

the commentators don't even play greninja and one look at the MU being played they can tell peach gets shut down
 

Emblem Lord

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The only high tier thing peach has is her damage. Almost everything else about her is mediocre.

Whenever I ask someone why they think Peach is secretly good, the first thing they do is link me to some dumb combo on for glory or a training room combo. Nothing about her neutral, her normals, her approach options, forcing approaches since she can't approach 3/4ths of the cast, nope.
You have become alot more active young lady. im diggin it.

Is it because you no longer play the frog? You were kinda....bitter in those times. lolz
 

LancerStaff

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Mm, the Pits at 16th again. Yep, I'm fine with that. Though I wonder how much higher they could go... They debatably have even or maybe advantageous matchups with everybody above them until Sonic and good matchups against Rosalina, Cloud, and slightly more iffy MK.
 

Das Koopa

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"Lack of results for Peach"

Ling Ling got 13th at a pretty stacked regional soooo
 

BunbUn129

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Neutral is not defined as "Can Falco short hop laser cancel?"
Well, all this destroyed Falco's neutral:

-lasers are pretty bad now; say what you want, this nerf means he loses at mid- and long-range
-dair has much high landing lag
-bair has a smaller hitbox and shorter duration
-Phantasm can no longer be shortened

They practically took away Falco's mid- and long-range game, and worsened his up-close game by making back aerial much less effective at spacing.

Yes, Falco has a good up-close game because of his decent range and good frame data. But is that going to make up for the fact that he's pretty darn easy to zone against thanks to ****ty mobility and a near lack of presence from afar? Falco has side-b for movement, but with its notable start-up and how it has fixed distance, it's not reliable and becomes predictable. Falco's threat zone is hilariously small. Falco must be respected at close range, but getting their against half the cast is a constant up-hill battle for him. Is Falco's neutral non-existent like I said? No. Is it good? No. Is it bad? Definitely.

From my own experience, there are parallels that can be drawn between :4falco:'s and :4metaknight:'s neutral games: frame data and range. But what makes Meta Knight's infinitely better is simply that he has the mobility to overcome his weak presence outside of CQC.
 

Megamang

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You have become alot more active young lady. im diggin it.

Is it because you no longer play the frog? You were kinda....bitter in those times. lolz

Obviously not speaking for her, but I feel a lot more optimistic about having a top tier under my belt, finally.

Its really sad when you don't have an option, or your option is just to play around something and hope a game doesn't come down to your weakness. For the first time, my upwards progression feels limitless and only bound by my skills and training.

Right when nairo tilting got me questioning ZSS a little, Anti is like 'naw watch this' and im back up again. Its a great time to main a top tier.


Megaman even has uses in a lot of random tough mid tier MUs I don't feel arsed to learn as ZSS. Just cover the top tiers for some tournament stuff.


So.. what do you guys think of ZSS vs shiek? I felt that Nairo was outplayed, and his ZSS has always been, and will always be, extremely momentum based. Which looks great when he gets the grabs, and terrible when he doesnt.

Anti's safer, pokier ZSS seemed more consistent. And you need consistent vs Dabuz, since he slows the game down enough to stop your momentum frequently. His playstyle is so potent because it pokes at you, annoys you, does a lot of damage safely to you... yet as soon as you get something going, it slams to a halt and he is back executing his game again. well deserved win by dabuz.
 
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momochuu

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You have become alot more active young lady. im diggin it.

Is it because you no longer play the frog? You were kinda....bitter in those times. lolz
bayonetta has liberated me. i'm free from those chains.
 

BTVolta

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I still don't get why people still think ROB, Peach, and Falcon are better than greninja still. Heck, I don't even think DK and Luigi should be above him still, but they have a good case for it at least.

At this point I don't even care anymore, I haven't seen a good greninja placement on a tier list ..... probably ever.
It's not surprising to see zero put Falcon above Frog since he really likes him and would be very positive about his place in the meta. Peach is a meme high tier now(did I use that correctly?) and idk about rob in the meta; Mister Eric seems to get respectable finishes and 8Bort still does well in FL with 9th at TNS6 recently and his list seems mostly from results.

I think the big problem is there's no high profile Frog main in the US like Fatality, John#s, or Reflex are for their characters, so he might not be in the correct spot on list for his actual place in the meta.

Although this makes me think what is Frogs place in the US meta? There certainly doesn't seem to be many players for him so how important is learning the match up when prepping for a regional or major if you know venia or Gibus isn't going to be there?(excuse my lack of knowledge on US Frogs) What relevent characters does he check? He seems potent, but just hasn't made a splash(heh) over here yet.
 

Yikarur

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Japan is another metagame entirely.

And part of the reason :4peach: is consistenly ranked high is that people for the most part excuse her lack of tournament results because she's one of the most difficult characters to play well in the entire game. Thus, people see combos and are like "Now we need to wait for someone to do that in tournament." As such, she won't leave high tier for a long time.

:4yoshi: was in a similar position, but he's such a simple character that there wasn't any sort of excuse for him.
Yoshi is not a simple character at all. Playing Yoshi at Top Level requires an extremely high amount of knowledge and experience.
 

Y2Kay

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that wasn't an excuse for greninja so why should it be one for peach? how does that even make sense? "she sucks right now but let's keep her in high tier. somebody has to do well eventually."

other difficult to play characters are making waves by now.

most of her negatives are faults of her design, it doesn't really seem like her being difficult has much to do with it.

also that MU chart says peach beats Greninja but lol:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENcV85dyvh0

the commentators don't even play greninja and one look at the MU being played they can tell peach gets shut down
I really need to hear his logic, because that doesn't make much sense. I remember ARISTOS ARISTOS saying it was a -2 for peach and at this point I believe him. Greninja doesn't care about any of her stuff besides like fair and dair on shield. Wether you camp her or get aggressive with peach she just really has no equal counter. Overall greninja has both better mobility on the ground and in the air. And Peach is notorious for getting camped really hard. If he thinks it's because of the "Messiah Combo" a vein in my head will burst.
You have become alot more active young lady. im diggin it.

Is it because you no longer play the frog? You were kinda....bitter in those times. lolz
She doesn't play greninja anymore? Lol I can't tell. I think it's probably because people actually believe her greninja talk now. I remember her preaching about how good istudying was months before BEAST 6 ever happened.

:150:
 
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Megamang

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Greninja is a pretty hard check to Luigi (not as relevant) and a nice check to Mario (who we learned is super relevant before top top level), at least even if not better. And chances are, due to popularity differences, the Greninja will know the Mario MU much better than the Mario knows the Greninja MU.
 

BunbUn129

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I'm sorry, what? Alot of characters would kill for his bair.

Smooth Criminal
It's so sad to see people overrate Falco's back aerial. Yes, it's a pretty good move, but I would honestly give anything for Falco's old back aerial. His new back air trades range and duration for power, but Falco already had quite a bit of power to begin with. It's like the power buffs they gave to Ganondorf: they're good, but were they really necessary?

Falco's mediocre KOing ability stemmed from his difficulty/risk in actually connecting with his finishers, and that translates into Smash 4. His bair is powerful, but it isn't an easy move to land even though it hits on frame 5, because of its pathetically small hitbox. If it was a fantastic move, you'd see Keitaro taking most of his stocks with it, which simply isn't the case. It also flat-out loses to most recovery moves as a result, meaning edge-guarding with it is usually ineffective and high-committal. The fact that it's Falco's only safe KOing move means anyone who knows anything about the character will see it coming from a mile away. It basically acts as a watered-down replacement to his old dair.
 
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Nobie

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Well, all this destroyed Falco's neutral:

-lasers are pretty bad now; say what you want, this nerf means he loses at mid- and long-range
-dair has much high landing lag
-bair has a smaller hitbox and shorter duration
-Phantasm can no longer be shortened

They practically took away Falco's mid- and long-range game, and worsened his up-close game by making back aerial much less effective at spacing.

Yes, Falco has a good up-close game because of his decent range and good frame data. But is that going to make up for the fact that he's pretty darn easy to zone against thanks to ****ty mobility and a near lack of presence from afar? Falco has side-b for movement, but with its notable start-up and how it has fixed distance, it's not reliable and becomes predictable. Falco's threat zone is hilariously small. Falco must be respected at close range, but getting their against half the cast is a constant up-hill battle for him. Is Falco's neutral non-existent like I said? No. Is it good? No. Is it bad? Definitely.

From my own experience, there are parallels that can be drawn between :4falco:'s and :4metaknight:'s neutral games: frame data and range. But what makes Meta Knight's infinitely better is simply that he has the mobility to overcome his weak presence outside of CQC.
To me, this sounds like "Falco no longer has extremely powerful tools so that means he doesn't have a neutral game anymore." Yeah, lasers aren't great. No, he can't instantly dair people to set up combos or whatever. He has to get into his effective range to fight, but even despite his slow run speed it's not like this is an impossible or herculean task.

Falco might not have the most amazing neutral anymore, but it's not like he's so utterly lacking in options that he has to just sit there and take it. "All he has is good range and frame data," as if that doesn't matter.
 

Megamang

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I'd keep Zamus's bair, even watered down, over falco's bair. Power is one thing, but lack of active frames and range makes it less practical a bair. For megaman, his bair is amazing so I also wouldn't trade it. Actually, i'd wager more than half the cast prefer their bair to the over-precise lazer that is falco's bair.

Falco doesn't have burst range, or burst hitboxes, or effective burst movement... so yea, if you play in his zone he is great, but not everyone has to. I just sit outside his zone, poking and prodding (with moves that confirm for lots of damage usually, or at least a chance to do lots of damage) until something goes right OR he makes a small commitment, then I jump into his zone just long enough to get my damage in, then back to zoning him. Its not that his tools aren't good, quite the opposite, his good tools are tied to a mediocre-at-best body.
 
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NairWizard

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bayonetta has liberated me. i'm free from those chains.
Obviously not speaking for her, but I feel a lot more optimistic about having a top tier under my belt, finally.

This is the way it should be.

I don't understand people who want to win but stick to characters who aren't suited to win.

You're going to put hundreds of hours of playtime into a character just to go to a tournament and get Sheik'd by a player who may even be worse than you? Really?

It's like going to work in a really uncomfortable suit, because it's your favorite and you like the color, and sitting there for 8-10 hours just bearing it because hey, it's a really nice suit.

Screw that. Just wear something really comfortable and do your work like a badass.

Pick a ****ing Top Tier! It feels so good.
 
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ARISTOS

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Don't think :4peach: is too out of place with the company she's keeping (if I was doing it, she would likely be around the same characters but part of ZeRo's top tier would be cut off into high, part of his high would be cut off into mid, including Peach). I agree that theory should just have all these different characters just camping her out and reacting to what she does but she keeps getting decent placings at stacked tournaments, even though her actually winning the whole thing is very rare.

Being able to Float and just hover in a zone where your opponent must take a risk to get to her is a very strong tool (the whole threatening with your presence and not with a hitbox).

I think most characters have the tools to beat Peach, but I also think Peach can go toe to toe with most of the cast and do well. Umeki's MU chart is weird but I don't know the Japanese meta well; I'm most interested in :4cloud: being even and his reasoning for that. Maybe he's got some secrets that could use some sharing.

Either way, if we were to follow that MU chart to a T, that is a pretty great set of MUs, BunbUn129 BunbUn129 . Going even with both Cloud and Sheik is nothing to scoff at, given they are two of the most popular characters in the meta.

Patch meta hasn't helped at all because now she has a bunch of different threats to worry about while not being buffed at all + the nerf of shields hurt the way she approached (now relegated to a ton of SHAD+Float cancel).

Biggest buff that I think would be in line with the character design would be some sort of kill confirm that worked generally that ended stocks around 90-100~ this would help prevent matches where opponents get to live to 130-140 because you couldn't land the confirm.

I really need to hear his logic, because that doesn't make much sense. I remember ARISTOS ARISTOS saying it was a -2 for peach and at this point I believe him. Greninja doesn't care about any of her stuff besides like fair and dair on shield. Wether you camp her or get aggressive with peach she just really has no equal counter. Overall greninja has both better mobility on the ground and in the air. And Peach is notorious for getting camped really hard. If he thinks it's because of the "Messiah Combo" a vein in my head will burst.

:150:
MU is decent for :4peach: if you can get Battlefield. FD and FD-lite (Smashville) make it much harder.

Greninja has overwhelming mobility but should Peach get in his ability to play out of trouble is much harder+you can poke at that shield all day





Everything I stated above should be taken with a grain of salt because I suck lol

EDIT: Very interested in the next big tournament Reflex goes to. :4wario2: seems to be stalling and a great performance by him could respark some life back into the character
 
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TTTTTsd

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This is the way it should be.

I don't understand people who want to win but stick to characters who aren't suited to win.

You're going to put hundreds of hours of playtime into a character just to go to a tournament and get Sheik'd by a player who may even be worse than you? Really?

It's like going to work in a really uncomfortable suit, because it's your favorite and you like the color, and sitting there for 8-10 hours just bearing it because hey, it's a really nice suit.

Screw that. Just wear something really comfortable and do your work like a badass.

Pick a ****ing Top Tier! It feels so good.
I mean you can always play those kinds of chars in friendlies too. I'm 80% positive that this happens on a regular basis solely because it doesn't affect your tournament record.

Cloud was my gateway in, but I still play Doc cause....he's way too fun to outright quit.
 

PK Gaming

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Yes, yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes! This is the way it should be.

I don't understand people who want to win but stick to characters who aren't suited to win.

You're going to put hundreds of hours of playtime into a character just to go to a tournament and get Sheik'd by a player who may even be worse than you? Really?

It's like going to work in a really uncomfortable suit, because it's your favorite and you like the color, and sitting there for 8-10 hours just bearing it because hey, it's a really nice suit.

Screw that. Just wear something really comfortable and do your work like a badass.

Pick a ****ing Top Tier! It feels so good.
It's not that simple though. Sometimes top tier characters just simply do not mesh with your particular playstyle, or in other cases, you're flat out better at using lowered tiered characters.

I don't necessarily disagree with your viewpoint, but it would be more accurate to say that if you really wanted to succeed in tournament, then you should be using the highest tiered character that you can possibly play at your fullest.
 
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Megamang

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This is the way it should be.

I don't understand people who want to win but stick to characters who aren't suited to win.

You're going to put hundreds of hours of playtime into a character just to go to a tournament and get Sheik'd by a player who may even be worse than you? Really?

It's like going to work in a really uncomfortable suit, because it's your favorite and you like the color, and sitting there for 8-10 hours just bearing it because hey, it's a really nice suit.

Screw that. Just wear something really comfortable and do your work like a badass.

Pick a ****ing Top Tier! It feels so good.

People like certain characters. They may feel an attachment to the character itself, or the gameplay. I wouldn't tie that to a bad choice like being uncomfortable, unless they also complain about the game / want to win above all. I really liked megaman, and enjoyed putting time into him to learn to improve my game. It was just a looming fear of Shiek that ruined him. And now, people know that. I've gotten Shiek CP'd -> camp with needles enough times to want an answer. Of course, the best answer is shiek, but I chose an answer that comes close.

Man, it was rough seeing my words used to promote dirty shiek play. If ZSS were on top, Mega would be in a fine enough place.


Just kidding! Kind of.

EDIT: Ninja'd by like, three similar posts. Not trying to jump on you Solid, I just dislike Shiek a lot. Top tier is fine, I just dislike the way she dominates CQC AND has freakin needles. Really its just needles ruin so much, dont even make sense (the decision to make them transcendent is on par with making MK's sword transcendent. Pure, terrible dumb game design) promote degenerate gameplay, and provide a really really easy way for players to, as you put it, Shiek someone. Bleh.
 
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Flux0r

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Obviously not speaking for her, but I feel a lot more optimistic about having a top tier under my belt, finally.

Its really sad when you don't have an option, or your option is just to play around something and hope a game doesn't come down to your weakness. For the first time, my upwards progression feels limitless and only bound by my skills and training.

Right when nairo tilting got me questioning ZSS a little, Anti is like 'naw watch this' and im back up again. Its a great time to main a top tier.


Megaman even has uses in a lot of random tough mid tier MUs I don't feel arsed to learn as ZSS. Just cover the top tiers for some tournament stuff.


So.. what do you guys think of ZSS vs shiek? I felt that Nairo was outplayed, and his ZSS has always been, and will always be, extremely momentum based. Which looks great when he gets the grabs, and terrible when he doesnt.

Anti's safer, pokier ZSS seemed more consistent. And you need consistent vs Dabuz, since he slows the game down enough to stop your momentum frequently. His playstyle is so potent because it pokes at you, annoys you, does a lot of damage safely to you... yet as soon as you get something going, it slams to a halt and he is back executing his game again. well deserved win by dabuz.
I'm totally with you.

I dropped Samus back in June, and i feel much less weight when playing a better character than her.
It's not fun when you need to put in 3x amount of effort for a single win.

Everyone is free to play whoever they want, but most low-tier mains will hit a point where they can clearly see how much they handicap themselves by playing their character. There's nothing wrong with trying new stuff, you may even discover a new passion. You can be creative amd smart with other characters as well, regardless of their viability.

I tried my best with her, but at this point she isn't a redeemable character. Zero Suit Samus feels like her without any strings attached, it feels amazing.

Besides, if you're only playing this character just so you can have an excuse each time you lose, is a really sh**ty mindset to have for any competitive game.

Pick a top-tier folks. They're hella fun and hella good at the same time.
 

BunbUn129

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To me, this sounds like "Falco no longer has extremely powerful tools so that means he doesn't have a neutral game anymore." Yeah, lasers aren't great. No, he can't instantly dair people to set up combos or whatever. He has to get into his effective range to fight, but even despite his slow run speed it's not like this is an impossible or herculean task.

Falco might not have the most amazing neutral anymore, but it's not like he's so utterly lacking in options that he has to just sit there and take it. "All he has is good range and frame data," as if that doesn't matter.
Falco's neutral is overall bad. That's what happens when you combine slow mobility with an inability to camp. Villager is even slower than Falco but has a much better neutral because his camping ability makes up for it. Yes, Falco has good frame data and range, but again, he can't readily take advantage of that in most MU's. Again, I compare him to Meta Knight in that Meta Knight also has attack speed and range, but these are readily usable because his mobility stats allow him to quickly get close and threaten his opponent.

It's not impossible for Falco to get close, but it IS difficult. But that's not the whole issue: even when Falco gets in, his decent combo game is not enough to compensate for his weak neutral game.

Saying that the nerf to lasers didn't butcher Falco's neutral is a HUGE understatement. :falcomelee: would've been significantly worse without his blaster. I know because I play him in Melee, and any one reputable will tell you the same thing. Playing Melee/Brawl Falco without lasers is like walking blindfolded. What did lasers do? They gave Falco an excellent tool for approaching, camping, pressuring, comboing, and edge-guarding. Is that balanced? No, but that's not my argument. But can you say it wasn't essential to his play style? Can you say that Falco can make do without lasers without being compensated? HELL NO. Was it his only option is neutral? No, but it was undoubtedly his most important (Shine was important, too, but again, that was a CQC option (lol), so it would be much less threatening without his projectile).

There are several characters who would have much worse neutral games if you nerfed only one or two moves. Melee/Brawl Marth's fair and d tilt were his two most important moves in neutral, and both were significantly nerfed in Smash 4. If you just gave Marth those two moves, he would without a doubt be a noticeably better character.

Heck, I'll use a more relevant example that I know::4metaknight:. What options does he have in neutral? Dash attack, dash grab, d tilt, dair, fsmash, and ftilt. Even though those are 6 moves, if you so much as nerfed dash attack by slowing it down, removing its disjoint, lowering its angle, or increasing its knockback--anything that negated it as an approach option and/or combo tool--he would be no longer be a top-tier, because you're removing the single most important tool in his neutral game by making it unsafe and/or ruining its combo potential which, in turn, removes a large part of his fear factor through worsening his punishing ability. A character could easily drop to low-tier if you only touched one move, and Falco is perhaps the single best example of that. When I see people talk about how hard Falco got gimped, what do I find? Do I see people mentioning his dair nerfs? Do I read comments about how he can no longer chain-grab? Not very often, because most are putting emphasis on how useless lasers are, and that goes to show how big this one nerf was.

It's funny because Falco technically received more buffs than nerfs; the only moves that got totaled were his blaster and dair. Speaking with Smash 4 Falco mains, it's a pretty common belief among them that Falco would be notably better than in Brawl if they only gave him SH lasers.

TL;DR Smash 4 Falco's neutral game was butchered mainly because he lost his projectile without any meaningful compensation.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Falco's neutral is overall bad. That's what happens when you combine slow mobility with an inability to camp. Villager is even slower than Falco but has a much better neutral because his camping ability makes up for it. Yes, Falco has good frame data and range, but again, he can't readily take advantage of that in most MU's. Again, I compare him to Meta Knight in that Meta Knight also has attack speed and range, but these are readily usable because his mobility stats allow him to quickly get close and threaten his opponent.

It's not impossible for Falco to get close, but it IS difficult. But that's not the whole issue: even when Falco gets in, his decent combo game is not enough to compensate for his weak neutral game.

Saying that the nerf to lasers didn't butcher Falco's neutral is a HUGE understatement. :falcomelee: would've been significantly worse without his blaster. I know because I play him in Melee, and any one reputable will tell you the same thing. Playing Melee/Brawl Falco without lasers is like walking blindfolded. What did lasers do? They gave Falco an excellent tool for approaching, camping, pressuring, comboing, and edge-guarding. Is that balanced? No, but that's not my argument. But can you say it wasn't essential to his play style? Can you say that Falco can make do without lasers without being compensated? HELL NO. Was it his only option is neutral? No, but it was undoubtedly his most important (Shine was important, too, but again, that was a CQC option (lol), so it would be much less threatening without his projectile).

There are several characters who would have much worse neutral games if you nerfed only one or two moves. Melee/Brawl Marth's fair and d tilt were his two most important moves in neutral, and both were significantly nerfed in Smash 4. If you just gave Marth those two moves, he would without a doubt be a noticeably better character.

Heck, I'll use a more relevant example that I know::4metaknight:. What options does he have in neutral? Dash attack, dash grab, d tilt, dair, fsmash, and ftilt. Even though those are 6 moves, if you so much as nerfed dash attack by slowing it down, removing its disjoint, lowering its angle, or increasing its knockback--anything that negated it as an approach option and/or combo tool--he would be no longer be a top-tier, because you're removing the single most important tool in his neutral game by making it unsafe and/or ruining its combo potential which, in turn, removes a large part of his fear factor through worsening his punishing ability.

TL;DR Smash 4 Falco's neutral game was butchered mainly because he lost his projectile without any meaningful compensation.
Not to nitpick but I'm p.sure Marth's Dtilt in this game has really good hitboxes because they buffed it for some reason. Like, it's even better than it already was.

Semantics, I know.
 
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