Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Yoshi

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Yoshi

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Yoshi match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Yoshi. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 1/10/2016

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | ±0
Default + Custom | | ±0

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
Dabuz: -1
DragN: +1 - +2
GSM_Dren: +1
Kaishin: -2
KeenbobIsTehSmrt: ±0
Nadeko Sengoku: +1
Planty: +1
R e d X: +1
Ritronaut: -2
Sleek Media: -2
tconan: ±0
The Wall: -1

Default + Custom
Dabuz: ±0
DragN: +2
GSM_Dren: +2
Kaishin: -1
Planty: +2
Ritronaut: -1
Sleek Media: -2 - -1
tconan: +1
The Wall: ±0

 

[Ritronaut]

I think this is one of our worst matchups in the game.

Yoshi's anti air can destroy luma and even hit Rosalina if used well. The eggs arc over luma and gravitational pull is generally not a very good option because Yoshi can come racing in. His fair approaches destroy Luma, and send him flying, so center stage is a must when playing against Yoshi, it is the most important thing in my opinion. Our huge hitbox is food for his down air and if a Yoshi manages to hit it, usually he can get the full 30 something percent. Yoshi's incredible anti air takes away so many of Luma's options in the air that it makes it very difficult to fight him.Our best option is probably juggling Yoshi with up airs, since he has no options if a good rosalina is below him. He can try to ground pound and down air but our up air beats that easily. Although yoshi escapes our juggling very well because he is floaty and his air movement is the best in the entire game. Not to mention his insane dash attack hits Luma and Rosalina very well.

Without customs: 35:65

With customs:
This is where it gets a lot better. Our Luma warp can put pressure on Yoshi REALLY REALLY well when he is offstage and even potentially gimp him by surprise. All without having to make effort to go in. And Shooting star bit gives us something to combat the eggs with, if yoshi is camping with the eggs (yesss). With customs I'm still going to say

45:55 Because even though we gain two good options, they may not always work because yoshi can easily recovery high to combat Luma warp and still beats us in the air.

 

[icraq]

I used to hate this matchup, Yoshi has a billion safe moves he can throw out, and he can force an approach using eggs as he flies all over the stage with them. It was incredibly difficult. I believed it was heavily in Yoshi's favor, maybe even 70:30.

But, that was partly due to how I was playing back in the winter.

Yoshi has a good amount of safe Luma killing tools, and he can shield pressure Rosa easily and wear down Luma's HP. So it's hard to punish him after he does his moves, but it's pretty easy when you learn how to counter his approaches.

If the Yoshi you're fighting is just on the ledge throwing eggs at you he's going to wait for you to approach and jump around waiting to see if an egg connects. The best response here is a slow, patient approach. Walk, don't run, and power shield his eggs. The eggs are super easy to powershield, you can powershield before they'll hit you, and since your shield extends beyond your body, the eggs will pop before they get close to you and be powershielded. So, walk, powershield, and when you are within range of Yoshi, he's likely going to be near the ledge.

Once you're within range of Yoshi, odds are you have powershielded an egg and he's about to attack. This is where you need to analyze your opponent's patterns. If they're in the air you can counter his aerials with upsmash, if he's on the ground you can powershield an egg and go immediately into ftilt, or dtilt. If he dash attacks he'll send Luma away but you can shield it and punish in time. Or just ftilt it before it hits you. If Yoshi predicts you to approach with shield he can whip out dair, but you can upsmash this as well, or just roll it.

One important to watch out for are his fair on your shield, he can autocancel it easily and go straight into a jab, beware of that. Only punish his fair with a grab on shield if he does it late and will suffer landing lag and can't drift back far enough away.

Once you get pass some hurdles in this MU it's in Rosalina's favor. He doesn't have the best ledge guarding vs Rosa but it's still good, he can fair your face or just harass with eggs. He's kinda hard to ledge guard, it requires some mind games, but if you can, luma's nair is pretty good at hitting Yoshi at a bad angle. I don't think we have any aerials that break his super armor in his second jump, so don't challenge it, and don't challenge and aerials he does while in his second jump, they retain super armor momentarily.

Customs really help Rosa here too. Shooting star bit and luma warp take out Yoshi's egg camping game entirely.

So, tl;dr:

• Power shield eggs, practice in training mode, level 9 cpu only throws eggs
• Hit him before he hits you, know his options for approach and beat him to the punch.
• Just be patient. You can outrange and out prioritize everything he does.
• Oh and also, if he downB's your shield he can break it if it's worn down slightly, so if he starts his grounded down B next to you while you shield, roll away and then punish, if you stand there shielding he'll break it.
• One more thing, he is hard to combo. He's heavy and floaty, so uthrow to uair isn't reliable here, neither is uthrow to utilt. Bait air dodges.

Last thing, here's a video from January where I beat a local Yoshi here for the first time. He was a huge roadblock for me, so this win was significant to me. Around 2:28 I realize I'm playing him like I always do and it always gets me creamed, so I start playing more patient.
http://www.twitch.tv/breadnbuttergames/c/5994831

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I think this is one of our worst matchups in the game.

Yoshi's anti air can destroy luma and even hit Rosalina if used well. The eggs arc over luma and gravitational pull is generally not a very good option because Yoshi can come racing in. His fair approaches destroy Luma, and send him flying, so center stage is a must when playing against Yoshi, it is the most important thing in my opinion. Our huge hitbox is food for his down air and if a Yoshi manages to hit it, usually he can get the full 30 something percent. Yoshi's incredible anti air takes away so many of Luma's options in the air that it makes it very difficult to fight him.Our best option is probably juggling Yoshi with up airs, since he has no options if a good rosalina is below him. He can try to ground pound and down air but our up air beats that easily. Although yoshi escapes our juggling very well because he is floaty and his air movement is the best in the entire game. Not to mention his insane dash attack hits Luma and Rosalina very well.

Without customs: 35:65

With customs:
This is where it gets a lot better. Our Luma warp can put pressure on Yoshi REALLY REALLY well when he is offstage and even potentially gimp him by surprise. All without having to make effort to go in. And Shooting star bit gives us something to combat the eggs with, if yoshi is camping with the eggs (yesss). With customs I'm still going to say

45:55 Because even though we gain two good options, they may not always work because yoshi can easily recovery high to combat Luma warp and still beats us in the air.

Hey, Just as a head's up there is a new scoring system, here you go for refrence:
Match-Up Scoring
Unlike with the round 1 discussions, round 2 will not be using a ratio system. It'll instead use a more simplified scoring system, which consists of the following...

• +3 = large advantage
• +2 = moderate advantage
• +1 = small advantage
• ±0 = even
• -1 = small disadvantage
• -2 = moderate disadvantage
• -3 = large disadvantage

Also, when giving a score to a match-up, you can alternate between giving a number value, or just saying that Rosalina has an advantage or disadvantage. For an example, "small advantage" would equal +1.

In terms of getting an average score, at the end of each week on the schedule, I'll add up all the score inputs, and then divide them by the number of users who made a score input. The average will then be rounded to the nearest integer, unless the tenths value of the decimal reads .5 (Ex.: +0.5).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Ritronaut & @ icraq : We are no longer using the ratio system. Please use either +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, or -3 for your score inputs; Nadeko Sengoku reposted the scoring rules if you missed them.

 

[Ritronaut]

Oh my bad,

Without customs: -2
With customs: -1

 

[icraq]

@ Ritronaut & @ icraq : We are no longer using the ratio system. Please use either +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, or -3 for your score inputs; Nadeko Sengoku reposted the scoring rules if you missed them.

I didn't give a ratio. I still don't feel like ratios are a good tool to use.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I didn't give a ratio. I still don't feel like ratios are a good tool to use.

Fortunately, ratios are not being used anymore, since we've switched over to a more simplified scoring system.

 

[DragN]

Hi Rosalinas, I've dropped by to share my two cents on this MU.
As a Yoshi main i've gotta say this is EASILY a -1 (maybe a -2) for us and from what I've heard only gets worse with her Luma Warp custom...definitely -2 with customs.
She has immense power and INCREDIBLE disjoints.
Her smashes are quick, powerful and cover a lot of range, further increasing in power and range with Luma.
Her up air is great at killing us and her f-air+n-air makes an impenetrable wall. Her back throw kills at 180% so if the match is taking forever, all she has to do is grab and back throw...
She has immediate coverage with Luma too. That little meatshield is invincible during his jab infinite and is so unbelievably powerful it's insane. (I've been killed at 30% from Lumas up air three times at mid height on Omega Kongo Jungle 64 with Rosalina having 90ish% rage AND WITH PROPER D. I TOO)
Eggs are a necessity in this MU to help pick off Luma and juggle Rosalina. She can't land too well and her recovery isn't damaging so we can hit her outta it.
The big problem for Yoshi is this: She outranges us, her disjonts overpower us, she walls us out and has another shield to smash us even further. It's so difficult to even get in at Rosalina even if we play safe with eggs bc of the endlag. (We gotta wait until the egg pops or is about
to pop to be able to throw another....by then, we'll be eating a Luma uppercut and die.)
3 of our specials r useless.
Egg lay can't grab her with Luma in the way, if it does Luma gets a free hit on us.
Egg Roll- It does launch Luma but...its EGG ROLL
Ground pound- even if by some miracle, we break her shield....Luma CAN STILL ACT WHILE ROSALINA IS STUNNED.
Our customs are mostly useless while hers make her even better.
The only good thing is that Rosalinas recovery is easily intercepted with good reflexes, she can't land well against us, and she's very light.
I believe this is Yoshi's absolute worst MU in Smash 4, she just has so much range, power and heavily disjointed aerials that just destroy us....

Without customs: -1 (possibly -2) for Yoshi
With customs: DEFINITELY -2 for Yoshi

 

[Kaishin]

35:65 without customs.

At least Sheik has trouble killing us. At least we can space against Pikachu (as much as a character can space against that little *******, anyway). At least Mario doesn't have the insane range. At least Dtilt and luma jab out of getup attack stop Sonic's side b BS. At least Captain Falcon is just a Rosalina noobstomper (lol).

This is easily Rosalina's worse matchup. It's not Brawl Pikachu 0-death Fox bad, but it's probably in the realm of Brawl Pikachu v Marth.

Yoshi wins neutral and shuts down nearly every attempt at killing before 160 as well as most ways of getting his damage that high (due to his DJ armor stopping our combos).

Yoshi is very difficult to gimp if the player isn't a moron and always DJs high and then eggs very far away.

Here is a post I made on the Yoshi board asking for help. This post is a little outdated. He doesn't have free reign on his smash attacks, but most every else rings true.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-nose-knows-yoshi-mu-portal.371672/page-7#post-19265042

With customs it's probably 45:55. The option of warp->usmashing a Yoshi stuck in egglag as well as a projectile of our own greatly benefits us here.

Edit: To the above poster: A Yoshi that plays safe and plays patiently is very difficult to defeat. It doesn't matter if you've timed out the clock when you've shut down most of our options on the way there.

EDIT 2: TOO MANY EDITS. WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS -2 (COUNTER; DEFAULT) AND -1 (SOFT COUNTER; DEFAULT + CUSTOMS).

 

[Ritronaut]

I very much agree with your ratio above, but you have to do it in either -2, -1, 0, +1, and +2 format.

 

[Kaishin]

Fixed it. Sorry about that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's going to be very hard for me to keep track of everyone's scores if I don't know if they're default only, or if customizations are involved.

@ DragN & @ Kaishin : If possible, can you fix up your scores so that I know which category they're in? The two categories are "Default only" and "Default + Custom".

 

[DragN]

I think I fixed mine. Sorry about that...

 

[Kaishin]

Fixed again. It's at the edit at the bottom, again.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I used to hate this matchup, Yoshi has a billion safe moves he can throw out, and he can force an approach using eggs as he flies all over the stage with them. It was incredibly difficult. I believed it was heavily in Yoshi's favor, maybe even 70:30.

But, that was partly due to how I was playing back in the winter.

Yoshi has a good amount of safe Luma killing tools, and he can shield pressure Rosa easily and wear down Luma's HP. So it's hard to punish him after he does his moves, but it's pretty easy when you learn how to counter his approaches.

If the Yoshi you're fighting is just on the ledge throwing eggs at you he's going to wait for you to approach and jump around waiting to see if an egg connects. The best response here is a slow, patient approach. Walk, don't run, and power shield his eggs. The eggs are super easy to powershield, you can powershield before they'll hit you, and since your shield extends beyond your body, the eggs will pop before they get close to you and be powershielded. So, walk, powershield, and when you are within range of Yoshi, he's likely going to be near the ledge.

Once you're within range of Yoshi, odds are you have powershielded an egg and he's about to attack. This is where you need to analyze your opponent's patterns. If they're in the air you can counter his aerials with upsmash, if he's on the ground you can powershield an egg and go immediately into ftilt, or dtilt. If he dash attacks he'll send Luma away but you can shield it and punish in time. Or just ftilt it before it hits you. If Yoshi predicts you to approach with shield he can whip out dair, but you can upsmash this as well, or just roll it.

One important to watch out for are his fair on your shield, he can autocancel it easily and go straight into a jab, beware of that. Only punish his fair with a grab on shield if he does it late and will suffer landing lag and can't drift back far enough away.

Once you get pass some hurdles in this MU it's in Rosalina's favor. He doesn't have the best ledge guarding vs Rosa but it's still good, he can fair your face or just harass with eggs. He's kinda hard to ledge guard, it requires some mind games, but if you can, luma's nair is pretty good at hitting Yoshi at a bad angle. I don't think we have any aerials that break his super armor in his second jump, so don't challenge it, and don't challenge and aerials he does while in his second jump, they retain super armor momentarily.

Customs really help Rosa here too. Shooting star bit and luma warp take out Yoshi's egg camping game entirely.

So, tl;dr:

• Power shield eggs, practice in training mode, level 9 cpu only throws eggs
• Hit him before he hits you, know his options for approach and beat him to the punch.
• Just be patient. You can outrange and out prioritize everything he does.
• Oh and also, if he downB's your shield he can break it if it's worn down slightly, so if he starts his grounded down B next to you while you shield, roll away and then punish, if you stand there shielding he'll break it.
• One more thing, he is hard to combo. He's heavy and floaty, so uthrow to uair isn't reliable here, neither is uthrow to utilt. Bait air dodges.

Last thing, here's a video from January where I beat a local Yoshi here for the first time. He was a huge roadblock for me, so this win was significant to me. Around 2:28 I realize I'm playing him like I always do and it always gets me creamed, so I start playing more patient.
http://www.twitch.tv/breadnbuttergames/c/5994831

I really enjoyed that set you had with that Yoshi, something you did really well that I wanted to point out was you punished him for using his second jump in the first match, Many Yoshi's foolishly use their second jump on stage and for me personally that is the green light to just go in on them and get them off stage.

Personally I think this MU is +1 in Rosalina's favor, default only, and i can only imagine the match up gets worse for Yoshi with customs on.

Patience is key in this match up, and if Yoshi does not auto cancel, and properly his aerials he will suffer landing lag and he can be punished. Sending Luma out helps so much in this match up. When he wants to spam eggs it fills my heart with joy because I can have Luma smack him into next Tuesday. If i manage to get him offstage I will shoot Luma out to apply pressure offstage and then go offstage with Rosalina to gimp him with bair. Gimping him is not easy due to the super armor on his second jump but if he doesn't use early to recover I just keep shoving him further and further from the stage until he plummets to his death. I will post example of what I'm talking about later on so you can see what I mean.

Edit: One more thing i wanted to point out is that Rosalina's up air halo is transcendent meaning Yoshi can't challenge it with anything if he is directly above her, if the Rosalina uses it with proper timing

 

[Kaishin]

I really enjoyed that set you had with that Yoshi, something you did really well that I wanted to point out was you punished him for using his second jump in the first match, Many Yoshi's foolishly use their second jump on stage and for me personally that is the green light to just go in on them and get them off stage.

Personally I think this MU is +1 in Rosalina's favor, default only, and i can only imagine the match up gets worse for Yoshi with customs on.

Patience is key in this match up, and if Yoshi does not auto cancel, and properly his aerials he will suffer landing lag and he can be punished. Sending Luma out helps so much in this match up. When he wants to spam eggs it fills my heart with joy because I can have Luma smack him into next Tuesday. If i manage to get him offstage I will shoot Luma out to apply pressure offstage and then go offstage with Rosalina to gimp him with bair. Gimping him is not easy due to the super armor on his second jump but if he doesn't use early to recover I just keep shoving him further and further from the stage until he plummets to his death. I will post example of what I'm talking about later on so you can see what I mean.

Edit: One more thing i wanted to point out is that Rosalina's up air halo is transcendent meaning Yoshi can't challenge it with anything if he is directly above her, if the Rosalina uses it with proper timing

I know you can challenge his eggs with bair with proper timing, but how do you get back on stage when he's inevitably forced to use the DJ and gimp him? Otherwise you're just trading with the eggs and taking damage yourself.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I know you can challenge his eggs with bair with proper timing, but how do you get back on stage when he's inevitably forced to use the DJ and gimp him? Otherwise you're just trading with the eggs and taking damage yourself.

Normally when I send a Yoshi offstage I shoot Luma out, this also pressures the Yoshi and strikes fear in their hearts because they know what Luma will do to them. One response the Yoshi will do is double jump away from Luma and once those invincibility frames run out you B-air him with Rosa's disjointed B-air. Egg throw has enough start up and end lag to the point where so long as you dodge his egg via air dodge or just moving around it you can just continuously push him further from the stage

Edit: you can also bait out his F-air of stage and the cool down on the move is immense offstage, just be careful cause his nose knows no bounds

 

[tconan]

I also used to think this was in Yoshi's favor but now I don't. Easily the mu I have most experience with.
0 without customs, +1 with customs
Rosa pros:
-since Yoshi's grab has immense cooldown, shield becomes your best friend when dealing with eggs (although be wary of neutral b if they're using eggs in the air)
-up smash and bair are both great for punishing Yoshi's who jump around too much
-great juggling (be wary of down b, I've been killed by that in between my up airs)
-eggs can be GP'd if they throw it from afar
Yoshi pros:
-kills Luma very easily with eggs and dash attack
-very quick jab and nair means hard to combo and punish
-great recovery
-great juggling
-eggs can set up into spikes or frame traps into up airs
Overall, Rosalina is pretty good at punishing Yoshi and getting around his options, but once the Rosalina player makes a mistake the Yoshi can just completely go in on Rosalina.
Rosalina customs:
-shooting star bit really helps, since now Rosalina is not forced to approach
-eggs are now punishable with Luma warp
Yoshi customs:
-basically all useless except maybe jumping side b, but even then it doesn't help Yoshi too much

 

[Kaishin]

The Yoshi pros you listed far outweigh the Rosalina pros. Why do you think this matchup is even without customs?

I mean, I don't see Rosalina chaining 50% combos off of Yoshi. The other way around? Definitely, as noted by

Overall, Rosalina is pretty good at punishing Yoshi and getting around his options, but once the Rosalina player makes a mistake the Yoshi can just completely go in on Rosalina.

Also, how does Rosalina punish Yoshi for anything other than kill moves? I must know. e_e

 

[tconan]

What I meant was that since we are assuming highest level of skill:
-eggs on the ground can be dashshielded or shielded while walking, and then it's a mindgame where Yoshi has to make a move since another egg will let Rosa get a dash attack in
-eggs in the air can be combated with shield and up smash/up air
-Yoshi spacing aerials can be punished with dash attack upon landing
-if Yoshi decides to approach, all options are beaten by shield, spot dodge, and up smash/bair (up smash/bair for aerial approach, shield for dash attack, spot dodge for dash grab)
^However, if Yoshi succeeds in baiting one of these responses, Rosa is punished so it requires reaction time from Rosa player.
Basically, Rosalina can keep getting hits in if the player plays on point in terms of dealing with eggs through proper shielding and reacting and punishing Yoshi's approaches, but one mistake can lead to a really bad juggling situation for Rosalina. So to clarify, Yoshi does the 50% combos and stuff while Rosalina gets the percent little by little.

 

[icraq]

yeah stage control is pretty important because yoshi can capitalize on your mistakes so brutally. so don't do anything risky, don't get too crazy with your uairs, space your stuff right and yoshi can't get in on rosa. she can't destroy him like he can destroy her, but she is a wall and the only way he's getting in is if you let him.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm inclined to agree that it's -2 without customs and either -2 or -1 with customs.

Yoshi is just so safe and powerful. He has good options to send Luma flying, but doesn't really need them since his damage output is high enough to pop it quickly. He's extremely difficult to edgeguard (and impossible to gimp early), and has too much air speed for us to do any uAir strings. The real killer is that he has multiple fast killing options, where we have none. Any jab or sour nAir can true combo into smash or even a spike. We can't match him attack for attack, and we have to overcome his superior KO ability with rage. Worst of all, his eggs give him a ridiculously good camp game, forcing us to approach if he gets ahead. Why do half of the rushdown characters have better camping games than the best zoning characters?! I think this is one of those MUs where you have to deploy Luma and just keep poking until he commits to attacking Luma, then punish. Luma only needs to be glued to your chest when you're looking for the KO. Pivot fSmash is critical for us...it can sometimes be the anti air early KO that makes the difference between a win and loss.

Honestly, I don't think Luma Warp and Luma Shot change things much. Yoshi is so fast and active, he shouldn't be letting us catch him with either. His egg spam works just as well in the air and with b-reversals, so aside from catching him offstage (when he likely has armor), what can you actually do with these?

 

[R e d X]

Tough call between 5-5 and 55-45, but I think I'll go with the latter, so put me down for +1. I echo what was said earlier about rosa being the type to tack on damage slowly in this MU whereas a mistake can cost her a lot in yoshi's favour. But I feel that she has the advantage in neutral, so despite the significant weight and mobility differences, I think she still edges him out by a bit. It's a hard matchup to play correctly, but not necessarily a losing one at a high level of play imo

Also this is for default. I imagine customs would help rosa, but I'm not really a customs player

 

[GSM_Dren]

Default +1 / Custom +2 for Rosalina

Yoshi does not win in this matchup. I'm somewhat inclined to say that the matchup is evenish without customs, but from my experience I'm putting it +1 for Rosa.

Yoshi's best tools in this matchup is seemingly going to be constant pressuring with eggs, dash attack, and nair. Rosa counters this surprisingly well with GP and shield. At long-mid range, GP will negate eggs quite handily. At mid range, Rosa dashing into shield is an amazing way to counter eggs, and puts yoshi in a bad position because of the cooldown on egg toss. If yoshi decides to SH eggs, Rosa should immediately begin approaching because Yoshi does not have any good options to land with. Uair/nair gets shielded and punished freely. Trying to toss an egg as rosa is approaching and within mid-close range is not going to do us any good either as Rosa can easily dash under and counter with own dash attack, while yoshi is in cooldown. Yoshi cannot be throwing eggs forever because the Rosa will advance to a dominant stage position and limit yoshi's options on either side of the stage. Stage control is important in this matchup, and I believe Rosa has the advantage in keeping an advantageous position for herself.

Dash attack is one of the answers yoshi has against Luma. The problem with this is that while our dash attack knocks luma away, Rosa shields it and punishes afterwards (usually grabbing and throwing us away). During this time with Luma out of the picture, would be when I consider the matchup to be even. This would be where Yoshi can shine in the 13 seconds allotted. Even so, Rosa is still a wall to break through, because she begins to play even more defensively with avoidance.

If rosa becomes conditioned to shield while yoshi is approaching, we could mixup with an egg lay. However, egg lay is not particularly helpful for us in the matchup. With Luma around we're not going to get any follow up and upon release, Rosa can throw out an aerial or dodge to avoid any incoming damage by the yoshi. Our aerial down B is worthless (gets beaten by Rosa uair) and will get yoshi punished freely. A grounded down B has the ability to break Rosa's shield, but is not reliable, and gets punished again when whiffed. Below is from Delta-Cod's post in our MU thead.

Spoiler

Chiming in to mention that Yoshi's Down B is not hard to punish. Sure, it hurts if you get hit by both hits, but if you shield the first one, you are NOT locked into shielding the second. After the first hit on shield, you can...

• Roll through him, avoiding both the stars and the second hit, which gives you an opportunity to punish.
• Roll away, which does the same thing.
• Spotdodge, which depending on the character, gets through both the second hit and the stars and gives you a free punish.

Now, I'm not sure on Rosalina's frame data, but as long as you shield the first hit of the Down B, you can avoid the second and you'll be okay. Heck, you might even be able to squeeze in an Usmash as a punish.

Yoshi is not safe on shield. Fair (16 frame startup) is only safe when SH and inputted properly, otherwise it is a free shield to punish. Same goes with nair, its strongest and biggest hitbox comes out on frame 3, but after that it becomes sour and its lingering hitbox screams to be shielded and punished. This also is the same for his smash attacks. Again below is Delta-Cod's analysis on our "safe" smash attacks. More info on our "safe attacks" here.

Spoiler

Let's consult the frame data! Threads referenced:

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/
http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-and-lumas-frame-data.383688/

Forward Smash / F-Smash / FSmash / Side Smash (normal)
Frame 14-14: 15.5% 30b/ 98g 361°
Frame 14-14: 14% 30b/ 97g 361°
Frame 14-14: 13% 30b/ 97g 361°
Duration: 52

Frames between last active hitbox and end of move: 38

Up Smash / UpSmash / U-Smash / Usmash
Frame 11-13: 14% 37b/95g 75°
Frame 14-16: 12% 37b/95g 75°
Duration: 46

Frames between last active hitbox and end of move: 30

Down Special(1): Yoshi Bomb (ground)
Frame 7- 7: 4% 100f/80w 80° 0.5-Hitlag Ground-Target-Only
Frame 27-28: 15%(+10) 60b/72g 80° 0.7-Hitlag
Duration: 73

Yoshi Bomb Star
Frame 3-12: 4%(+6) 50b/40g 50°

Assuming the stars activate on frame 27 (that'd be when Yoshi hits the ground), the move has active hitboxes up until frame 39.

Frames between last active hitbox and end of move: 34

Back Air / B-Air / Bair
Frame 11-11: 2.5% 30b/200g 365° 2.0-Hitlag Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 11-11: 2.5% 50b/150g 361° 2.0-Hitlag Ground-Target-Only
Frame 17-17: 2.5% 30b/200g 365° 2.0-Hitlag Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 17-17: 2.5% 50b/150g 361° 2.0-Hitlag Ground-Target-Only
Frame 25-26: 5% 30b/184g 54° 2.0-Hitlag
Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 11
Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 44
Landing Lag: 19
Duration: 55

Frames between last active hitbox and end of move: 29

Assuming we autocancel PERFECTLY, this gets dropped to 18.

Naturally, the punish window for Bair is harder because we can move during it.

So, in conclusion, all of our "kill moves" have about 30 (usually more) frames of punishable endlag. That's at least half a second to punish Yoshi hard!

Let's look at Rosy's Usmash, since that's one of her kill moves:

U-smash
Frame 8-16: 12% 45b/1080g 86°
Smash charge window on real frame 4
Begins partial invincibility on real frame 7
End partial invincibility on real frame 17

The hitbox comes out on Frame 8. Luma's comes out on Frame 9.

So you have, on Bair, assuming a perfect auto cancel from the time of the last hitbox, 10 frames to get into position and start an Usmash. Realistically speaking, you probably have more time than this.

On Down B, you can roll away from the second hit or whatever, and then you have 34 frames to hit Yoshi after the stars vanish. That's 26 frames to run in and Usmash.

Against Usmash, you have 22 frames to start an Usmash.

Against Fsmash, you have 30 frames to start an Usmash.

Yoshi is by no means unpunishable. Look at this frame data! This SCREAMS punish me!

I'll admit to not knowing how this frame data will work out with shields. Maybe you can't punish a Bair on shield. But the rest of this stuff? I'm positive 20 (or more) frames are enough to get an Usmash in.

This is one of Yoshi's weaknesses. He struggles in last hit scenarios. He can't setup his kill moves and if he fails to connect with one he SHOULD get killed in response. The frame data just does not work out in his favor.

Rosa beats yoshi in the air. Her disjointed Uair/dair beats out yoshis' options. We are disadvantaged above Rosa, and we can't as easily go for followups when she's above us because of dair. Yoshi does have heavy armor going for him, but its easily beaten out by Rosa's smashes. Tilted F-smash is amazing tool for Rosa, who along with Luma effectively walls out fair/nair to an approaching yoshi. U-smash/utilt is great to beat out yoshi's approach from above, and Usmash can kill yoshi pretty reliably.

Customs:
Luma warp and shootings star bits make this matchup even worse for Yoshi. Shooting star bits are fast, and travel a large distance (80% FD). This means yoshi is no longer allowed to even try to camp, as if we try to throw eggs grounded, star bits will hit us first and the egg gets shielded. If we try to toss eggs in the air, we are disadvantaged and Rosa can easily close the distance to punish yoshi from below. Luma warp also prevents camping as a warp into smash attack means we cannot freely throw eggs. It also can punish yoshi who is trying to recover to the stage, Rosa stays at a safe distance while Luma walls him out.
With customs, egg launch helps us moreso than egg lay. We get stage control if it launches rosa off stage. Lick is also another decent option, but the command grab from default/egg launch is usually always better. Overall, I think customs definitely improve Rosa's offense and defense, and make it much harder for yoshi to win neutral.

 

[Kaishin]

Edit: Some preface here before the actual post, in case any of you from the Yoshi board are wondering why any of the following post might seem like a complete 180, it's because I fought 3 different Yoshis on Anther's not too long ago.

Your fair makes this matchup a living hell. Don't underestimate that. Forget the rest of your aerials. They couldn't exist for all I care. Nair is annoying and SH Dair stupid (why does my punish do 1/4th the damage the Dair would have done?), but whatever, there are bigger fish to fry. Fair is only beaten by possibly the eggs for how strong it is as one of Yoshi's tools in this matchup.

We can't challenge a SH hit-and-run fair because it beats everything, either by straight up priority, speed (it's frame 16, but Yoshi starts up the move before he gets into range), or what appears to be an absolutely massive disjointed range. Hitting the giant Yoshi head seems to do nothing and in addition it has an additional Melee Jigglypuff Bair disjoint in front of the head. Yoshi damages us just by slamming air into our faces. It's similar to Falcon, Dorf, and Samus' dash attacks but unlike those we can't just completely nullify it with dtilt.

This is combined with Yoshi's air speed and floatiness for an effect similar to Peach's floating retreating fair or Jigglypuff bair spam (both in Melee and Smash 4, though the two are distinctly different), making the move extremely safe. SH fair is safe if spaced correctly, so who in their right mind isn't going to know how to do that? That knowledge and practice will win you sets against this character as well as against others, so we can logically assume that any good Yoshi player knows how to do it. MUs explore the skill ceiling, after all.

Worst comes to worst, it trades. I won't deny that it can trade. Rosalina's usmash is one of the scariest moves in the entire game. However, this is generally a loss because unless you kill Yoshi, he's winning by account of his 25 extra units of weight. I don't know if it's feasible to hit Yoshi with both usmashes. If you could Rosalina might be winning the trade, but otherwise, no.

Over the edge this is obviously almost always our loss (we would challenge with fair, but no Rosalina is going to do that) as it is in most matchups, because it spikes. Business as usual. And as you might expect, normally, this wouldn't actually pertain to this particular matchup, however, depending on positioning, Rosalina can challenge almost all of the cast while recovering either with uair or fair (exceptions include Jigglypuff and of course Yoshi, among others). The fact that Yoshi shuts down this option hurts us quite a bit.

Yoshi has barely any trouble landing. Unless he's cornered, the fair fixes that too by account of it's very little endlag when it hits the ground (autocancel?). We can't challenge it because Yoshi's amazing air speed makes it so that we can't easily get right underneath him to challenge with uair. If it does look like that's going to happen (for instance, if Yoshi is cornered), Yoshi can just b-reverse and he's out of here. Worst comes to worst he just grabs ledge and then the situation becomes that he doesn't have stage control. Yeah, it sucks for Yoshi, but we still have to convert that into damage and that is not easy. Yoshi lands safely.

I could complain about how Yoshi's nair is a get out of luma free card and how it makes our jab very risky or how his SH dair is ridiculous in that it can't be usmash'd on reaction and doesn't have enough endlag to punish with any smash outside of shielded dsmash (because it, too, has as massive range and disjoint), but those points are much more debatable and frankly can't even compete with how strong his fair is.

 

[Sleek Media]

^ I don't think you can stay grounded vs Yoshi. You have to throw out nAirs with Luma attached, or deploy Luma and be ready to punish. Yoshi fAirs are one of the attacks I just roll against and don't even bother challenging unless I'm sure the spacing is bad.

 

[Kaishin]

^ I don't think you can stay grounded vs Yoshi. You have to throw out nAirs with Luma attached, or deploy Luma and be ready to punish. Yoshi fAirs are one of the attacks I just roll against and don't even bother challenging unless I'm sure the spacing is bad.

See, here's the thing. Let's use some basic fighting tactics and logic here: If we don't punish that move, how do we prevent the opponent from using it? We've effectively lost at that point. We have to give the opponent some reason not to use that move, whether it's damage/knockback or even simply loss of stage control.

This isn't like DeDeDe where we can simply avoid his ftilt and come up with some other way of dealing damage (because we can out range it with star bits and we are also faster). If we can't punish that fair then a Yoshi can just space all day against us with that thing.

P.S. I feel like that might've sounded condescending. It wasn't supposed to. I honestly thought that was the best logic for why respecting that move is not an acceptable solution.

 

[Sleek Media]

^ Okay, here's some basic logic: Yoshi isn't able to stay in a constant state of fAir. Attack him then. When he is using fAir, and his spacing makes punishing impossible or unfavorable, you go around it and try to create advantageous spacing. He can't take stage control if he is spacing fAir safely.

You said yourself that SH fAir cannot be challenged, so why are you suggesting that there is an alternative to respecting the attack? What is your acceptable solution?

 

[GSM_Dren]

Edit: Some preface here before the actual post, in case any of you from the Yoshi board are wondering why any of the following post might seem like a complete 180, it's because I fought 3 different Yoshis on Anther's not too long ago.

Your fair makes this matchup a living hell. Don't underestimate that. Forget the rest of your aerials. They couldn't exist for all I care. Nair is annoying and SH Dair stupid (why does my punish do 1/4th the damage the Dair would have done?), but whatever, there are bigger fish to fry. Fair is only beaten by possibly the eggs for how strong it is as one of Yoshi's tools in this matchup.

SH dair is stupid good and it is also stupid BAD. The amount of startup and endlag on it means SH dair is in most cases situational. Its not easy to land either as you literally have to have rolled into yoshi for you to be punished by it. One of the only times it could be used is when full hopped onto an opponent on a platform (BF, SV, etc.). Even then the opponent shields through it all.

We can't challenge a SH hit-and-run fair because it beats everything, either by straight up priority, speed (it's frame 16, but Yoshi starts up the move before he gets into range), or what appears to be an absolutely massive disjointed range. Hitting the giant Yoshi head seems to do nothing and in addition it has an additional Melee Jigglypuff Bair disjoint in front of the head. Yoshi damages us just by slamming air into our faces. It's similar to Falcon, Dorf, and Samus' dash attacks but unlike those we can't just completely nullify it with dtilt.

This is combined with Yoshi's air speed and floatiness for an effect similar to Peach's floating retreating fair or Jigglypuff bair spam (both in Melee and Smash 4, though the two are distinctly different), making the move extremely safe. SH fair is safe if spaced correctly, so who in their right mind isn't going to know how to do that? That knowledge and practice will win you sets against this character as well as against others, so we can logically assume that any good Yoshi player knows how to do it. MUs explore the skill ceiling, after all.

Worst comes to worst, it trades. I won't deny that it can trade. Rosalina's usmash is one of the scariest moves in the entire game. However, this is generally a loss because unless you kill Yoshi, he's winning by account of his 25 extra units of weight. I don't know if it's feasible to hit Yoshi with both usmashes. If you could Rosalina might be winning the trade, but otherwise, no.

SH hit-and-run fair does not beat everything. 16 startup frames is A LOT of time to avoid the attack altogether and either walk slightly away from the horribly linear approach or just shield/dodge through it. The reason why you don't see any yoshis mindlessly SH fairing anybody is because its so easily countered.

Over the edge this is obviously almost always our loss (we would challenge with fair, but no Rosalina is going to do that) as it is in most matchups, because it spikes. Business as usual. And as you might expect, normally, this wouldn't actually pertain to this particular matchup, however, depending on positioning, Rosalina can challenge almost all of the cast while recovering either with uair or fair (exceptions include Jigglypuff and of course Yoshi, among others). The fact that Yoshi shuts down this option hurts us quite a bit.

Fair does not beat out rosa's uair at all. The safest option for Rosa is to recover to the ledge and for the most part Yoshi can't do anything about it. I already mentioned fair's startup, and nairing with the correct hitbox before rosa snaps to the ledge is still not feasible.

Yoshi has barely any trouble landing. Unless he's cornered, the fair fixes that too by account of it's very little endlag when it hits the ground (autocancel?). We can't challenge it because Yoshi's amazing air speed makes it so that we can't easily get right underneath him to challenge with uair. If it does look like that's going to happen (for instance, if Yoshi is cornered), Yoshi can just b-reverse and he's out of here. Worst comes to worst he just grabs ledge and then the situation becomes that he doesn't have stage control. Yeah, it sucks for Yoshi, but we still have to convert that into damage and that is not easy. Yoshi lands safely.

Yoshi has a horrible time landing against Rosalina. There is no way for us to effectively challenge her Uair and we are forced to drift to either sides of the stage to actually land. The amazing disjoint on her Uair means we cannot fair, we cannot dair, we cannot nair, nor we cannot even down-b through it. We have to respect 100% and even our amazing air speed is not enough to keep us from getting stringed from it. Given the fact that Rosalina has many different options to get yoshi into the air (such as uthrow/dthrow, utilt, usmash), we are at a considerable disadvantage above her.

I could complain about how Yoshi's nair is a get out of luma free card and how it makes our jab very risky or how his SH dair is ridiculous in that it can't be usmash'd on reaction and doesn't have enough endlag to punish with any smash outside of shielded dsmash (because it, too, has as massive range and disjoint), but those points are much more debatable and frankly can't even compete with how strong his fair is.

Yoshi's nair is not a get out of luma free card either. If we're stuck in luma's or even rosas rapid jab, we cannot nair through it like we can do for other characters. SH dair is not ridiculous and YES, you can usmash it on reaction (duration is 55 frames, landing lag 28). If you get caught while in shield you simply roll away, and no Yoshi is going to go for SH dair all the time simply because of the high risk from whiffing.

See, here's the thing. Let's use some basic fighting tactics and logic here: If we don't punish that move, how do we prevent the opponent from using it? We've effectively lost at that point. We have to give the opponent some reason not to use that move, whether it's damage/knockback or even simply loss of stage control.

This isn't like DeDeDe where we can simply avoid his ftilt and come up with some other way of dealing damage (because we can out range it with star bits and we are also faster). If we can't punish that fair then a Yoshi can just space all day against us with that thing.

P.S. I feel like that might've sounded condescending. It wasn't supposed to. I honestly thought that was the best logic for why respecting that move is not an acceptable solution.

Again from my post above, you punish the move by avoiding the entirety of it (walk away) and punishing afterwards. A SH Fair train is so bad that there shouldn't be a reason why you can't punish it.

Yoshi is not the as good of a character that you place him as and he does not beat Rosalina with a significant advantage. You've said that a patient yoshi is difficult to beat, well I'll say that a patient Rosalina is twice as challenging to beat. Think of a player like Dabuz who is calculated and will wall out his opponent for centuries. What can yoshi do then? What can yoshi approach with that isn't countered by Rosa? Grav pull, Luma, disjointed Uairs, pivot grabs, and more shut yoshi out. Its only when luma is out of the picture that yoshi gets a mere glimmer of chance to do as much damage as possible.

 

[Dabuz]

For what it's worth, I think Yoshi vs. Rosa is Yoshi's advantage, but idk if it's a 55-45 or 60-40.

 

[Ritronaut]

For what it's worth, I think Yoshi vs. Rosa is Yoshi's advantage, but idk if it's a 55-45 or 60-40.

So that would basically be +1 in yoshis favor

 

[Dabuz]

With customs, make it even. Basically the short of it is that in non-customs Rosalina has to be aggressive otherwise eggs and dash attacks will do slow but sure damage and Yoshi has good keepaway tools. Both characters juggle each other well and Rosa lands kills well but Yoshi kills earlier. Luma laser basically lets Rosa evenly match Yoshi from a distance.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Dabuz : Remember that we're no longer using the ratio system. When possible, be sure to modify your scores so that they follow the rules on the directory thread. Also, be sure to state the categories that your scores are for, which can either be "Default only", "Default + Custom", or both.

 

[Dabuz]

Screw that noise you can interpret what I say AFK.

 

[Kaishin]

SH dair is stupid good and it is also stupid BAD. The amount of startup and endlag on it means SH dair is in most cases situational. Its not easy to land either as you literally have to have rolled into yoshi for you to be punished by it. One of the only times it could be used is when full hopped onto an opponent on a platform (BF, SV, etc.). Even then the opponent shields through it all.

SH hit-and-run fair does not beat everything. 16 startup frames is A LOT of time to avoid the attack altogether and either walk slightly away from the horribly linear approach or just shield/dodge through it. The reason why you don't see any yoshis mindlessly SH fairing anybody is because its so easily countered.

As I said before, he uses it before he gets into range. Also we have to use our own moves to punish it, and those aren't exactly instantaneous either. Though, I just remembered luma utilt is frame 2, so I'll have to write that down.

In any case, it has a massive disjoint, which can't be overlooked. That is, after all, what makes it safe on shield (a fact of which you yourself pointed out). Yoshi's hurtbox is mostly outside of Rosalina maximum range, so punishes are a lot harder than you think.

Yoshi has a horrible time landing against Rosalina. There is no way for us to effectively challenge her Uair and we are forced to drift to either sides of the stage to actually land. The amazing disjoint on her Uair means we cannot fair, we cannot dair, we cannot nair, nor we cannot even down-b through it. We have to respect 100% and even our amazing air speed is not enough to keep us from getting stringed from it. Given the fact that Rosalina has many different options to get yoshi into the air (such as uthrow/dthrow, utilt, usmash), we are at a considerable disadvantage above her.

That would be valid were Yoshi actually stuck right above Rosalina. He's not, however, because his air speed is the best in the game whereas ours is only average to above average. He doesn't have to challenge our uair because his air speed IS enough to get out of range. Yoshi is fairing from an angle where our uair can't hit him. Rosalina's aerials are only extremely scary and deadly when you are right below her or above her. Air speed + massive disjointed fair means Yoshi just flies next to her and fairs there and either trades or straight up beats her other offensive options.

Also, uairing through a down b is very risky and I would only do it if it could secure a kill. Yoshi could bait that and then down b at it's conclusion, and because he would be doing it high in the air he'd kill us at about 70-80.

He can also just b-reverse to escape pressure while simultaneously gaining stage control so there's that too.

Yoshi's nair is not a get out of luma free card either. If we're stuck in luma's or even rosas rapid jab, we cannot nair through it like we can do for other characters.

Uh... then why do I see Yoshi players doing it all the time? You just float to the top and mash nair to get out. I have to end the move before that happens. If you can find a way to jab Yoshi without him doing that, I am all ears.

Edit: I forgot. What you're saying is actually true for Luma's rapid jab. The nair tinks, I believe. But that is rarely, if ever, the point of using the rapid jab. We always want to connect with Rosalina's because it does the most damage, knocks into Luma's if they have to DI out (Yoshi does not, as he DIs up instead), and is the part of the rapid jab that kills. Rosalina's rapid jab is the part of the rapid jab Yoshi is stuck in 90% of the time, and from there he just floats up and out and nairs.

If you think what I mentioned in the above paragraph is false, let me reassure you it is most certainly true. It is extremely aggravating when we cannot catch a heavy character in a jab. Yoshi takes 8-9 damage as opposed to the standard 20-30 that the majority of the cast takes and he trades for that much if he doesn't get stuck low enough that we can end it in time.

SH dair is not ridiculous and YES, you can usmash it on reaction (duration is 55 frames, landing lag 28). If you get caught while in shield you simply roll away, and no Yoshi is going to go for SH dair all the time simply because of the high risk from whiffing.

When I say usmash on reaction I mean at the beginning, which we can't do because the disjoint eats through it. If you mean at the end, it might be possible if the usmash is reversed (Yoshi lands behind us). Admittingly I haven't tried because any attempts at experimentation are generally met with wonky disjoints.

Exactly how do you roll away from an attack that hits that fast? You know rolls have a vulnerable spot right at the beginning, right? If what you're saying is actually true, then setting up punishes is still difficult because dair has some funky disjoints that extend horizontally beyond Yoshi's feet.

Also, I have a hard time believing that Yoshi's dair has nearly half a second of landing lag. I will call that frame data into question. I have never been able to get away with anything other than a dsmash.

Again from my post above, you punish the move by avoiding the entirety of it (walk away) and punishing afterwards. A SH Fair train is so bad that there shouldn't be a reason why you can't punish it.

There have been Yoshis that have faired into my shield, landed right next to me, and almost immediately went into a jab. In that time period Rosalina only has enough time to grab Yoshi and the timing is very tight. Exactly what is she going to do if she's substantially farther away? That is what walking away implies because the massive disjoint means we have to go quite far. Your fair is nearly lagless.

Yoshi is not the as good of a character that you place him as and he does not beat Rosalina with a significant advantage. You've said that a patient yoshi is difficult to beat, well I'll say that a patient Rosalina is twice as challenging to beat. Think of a player like Dabuz who is calculated and will wall out his opponent for centuries. What can yoshi do then? What can yoshi approach with that isn't countered by Rosa? Grav pull, Luma, disjointed Uairs, pivot grabs, and more shut yoshi out. Its only when luma is out of the picture that yoshi gets a mere glimmer of chance to do as much damage as possible.

Yoshi doesn't have to approach. He's the one with the projectile. Also, reverse that situation around and you'll reach a similar conclusion with Rosalina. Your eggs shut down nearly all of our options as well. Your nair alone either tinks or out prioritizes everything that isn't a smash attack or uair/dair. None of those five things are valid approach options for an enemy right in front of us. The list goes on an on. At the end of the day, in nearly every situation, Yoshi has at least one option that covers a whole bunch of ours.

But the worst thing about Yoshi is how much easier he kills Rosalina than Rosalina kills him. A good Yoshi can spike Rosalina's recovery if she recovers low (Just jump off the stage backwards and fair us as we come up). A hard read on one that decides to recover high onto the stage is also a kill, for obvious reasons. Down b is probably the best for this one. If we land on a platform Yoshi may not get a kill but he definitely gets a punish. These are hard reads, though, I will say that. However, a Yoshi can cover a lot more options with a Nair, the same way Jigglypuff can, and that knocks us quite far (Our Up B has no hitbox).

Yoshi just eggs and he gets the ledge. You got gimped once by the Rosalina in that vid you posted, but that required pin-point timing and spacing and even then, that only worked because you somehow lost your DJ. Yoshi has knockback resistance on his DJ, which outside of a lucky smash at high percents or well-timed grab on a badly spaced DJ (the latter of which loses to a well-timed Nair) will go through our attacks with minimal damage. From there Rosalina can cover barely any of Yoshi's options despite him being above her because his jump sends him really far above her and from there he just eggs and lands.

Also, he's heavy. Like, really heavy. As heavy as Falcon, a character notorious for being hard to kill. Rosalina is the 4th or 5th lightest char in the game. Rosalina can't beat Falcon unless she spikes him, but with Yoshi we don't even have that option, whereas Yoshi kills us a lot earlier than we kill him. He just does not die.

For what it's worth, I think Yoshi vs. Rosa is Yoshi's advantage, but idk if it's a 55-45 or 60-40.

Even Dabuz thinks it's negative and he's the best Rosalina player in the world (FOR NOW; YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED). To my knowledge there are almost zero (if any at all) professional Yoshis that are really known and the fact that he still says it's negative should tell you something.

^ Okay, here's some basic logic: Yoshi isn't able to stay in a constant state of fAir. Attack him then. When he is using fAir, and his spacing makes punishing impossible or unfavorable, you go around it and try to create advantageous spacing. He can't take stage control if he is spacing fAir safely.

You said yourself that SH fAir cannot be challenged, so why are you suggesting that there is an alternative to respecting the attack? What is your acceptable solution?

I was hoping you might have an answer. I am really at a loss here.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Screw that noise you can interpret what I say AFK.

If that post was for me, some point after I made my last post here, I did try to convert your ratios into the new scoring format. Based on the conversion, your score appears to be -1 for Rosalina in the default only setting. You've also said that the match is even if customs are allowed, so I've got that down as ±0.

 

[Planty]

So I'm a bit late here but that's fine.

First I want to say, for this matchup, DON'T SEND LUMA AWAY. Now I'll write my opinion for this matchup.

Let's just focus on the neutral for now. You have to play very patiently and reactively vs Yoshi. Let's say that he goes to Fair you, assuming that Luma is attached, upsmash beats his Fair easily. Upsmash also beats ALL of Yoshi's aerials (Actually upsmash beats nearly any aerial in the game... That thing is probably the best anti-air there is). Also, since Yoshi's Fair is so slow, it's easy to upsmash him out of reaction.

And Yoshi can't really bait and punish the upsmash. How would he do that? Jump towards you to bait it out, cancel his forward momentum to drift away, then cancel his backwards momentum to drift forward and hit you with a frame 16 Fair? No...

So, what happens when Yoshi can't jump anymore (ESPECIALLY at high percents when upsmash will kill him)? Well, he's forced to either egg camp or make grounded approaches.

Egg camping really isn't hard to deal with (And really, can you think of ONE time a good Yoshi has been egg camping for more than a few seconds?)

Next is Yoshi's grounded approach. You can be pretty sure that he's not going to grab you, so he's likely to dash attack. Just shield it.(Though you obviously need a few mixups. If you think he'll grab, D-tilt or something) His dash attack is difficult to punish, but definitely possible. And don't forget that Yoshi's dash attack sends things upwards, I believe, so you don't have to worry about it killing Luma too much. Rosalina's tilts and starbits outrange all of yoshi's grounded attacks too, so he can't really poke at you from the ground. Also, egg lay is kinda useless.

In terms of mobility, Yoshi is noticeably better. However, this doesn't affect the matchup too much since you will be playing reactively.

In terms of Luma killing, dash attack won't work. Forward smash can work but... its forward smash... His aerials don't work since they get beaten out by upsmash. Overall, Yoshi just has difficulty killing Luma.

So basically what I'm saying is that ROSALINA WINS NEUTRAL IF SHE PLAYS VERY DEFENSIVELY AND REACTIVELY.

In terms of juggling Yoshi, it's difficult... But I do believe that our ground speed is higher than his air speed. That means that we could follow him from the ground and upsmash his landings or SH Uair him to keep him above us. It's also worth noting that properly spaced Uair beats Yoshi's aerial down-b.

In terms of combo game (With everything included, such as juggles), Yoshi can usually get 40% damage out of an advantaged state. However, Rosalina gets the about same thing out of an advantaged state because her juggle game is amazing and her attacks do a lot of damage with Luma around... And since Rosalina will usually be winning neutral, she'll be in an advantaged state more often.

That's not to say that Yoshi gets destroyed in this matchup. He does have a weight advantaged, meaning he dies much later.

He's pretty much untouchable offstage, so you can't gimp him, but you could still wait for him to grab the ledge and cover getup options.

In terms of Yoshi edgeguarding you, if you recover very low, landing that spike is very awkward so you can use that to your advantage to get back to the stage safely.

TL:DR VERSION AND SUMMING EVERYTHING UP

Rosalina wins neutral (kinda easily actually......) and she should have a higher damage output, all things considered. She also has more range than Yoshi, so she could poke at him. However, Yoshi has a better offstage game and he is much heavier, meaning he has a killpower advantage. Yoshi also has better mobility, but that doesn't play a big role in this matchup. Finally Yoshi isn't the greatest at killing Luma, but he could still do it.

All things considered, I give this matchup +1 for Rosalina, without customs. With customs, it's +2 (actually it's +1.5 but that's not an option...)

I just realised how much I wrote.......

 

[icraq]

Good stuff Planty. Everything you said is accurate. I don't know if it's the same for everyone but playing like that Vs Yoshi is honestly very exhausting. It's a winnable MU for Rosa, definitely, but it requires a lot of focus. I so badly just want to rush in and get it over with, but that will just get Rosa killed. Patience is key, and remember to mix things up occasionally.

 

[Kaishin]

So I'm a bit late here but that's fine.

First I want to say, for this matchup, DON'T SEND LUMA AWAY. Now I'll write my opinion for this matchup.

Let's just focus on the neutral for now. You have to play very patiently and reactively vs Yoshi. Let's say that he goes to Fair you, assuming that Luma is attached, upsmash beats his Fair easily. Upsmash also beats ALL of Yoshi's aerials (Actually upsmash beats nearly any aerial in the game... That thing is probably the best anti-air there is). Also, since Yoshi's Fair is so slow, it's easy to upsmash him out of reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that usmash is one of the most feared moves in the game, but I have tried many times to beat his fair and dair with usmash. No, it doesn't beat his fair (nor his dair). Yes, you can attempt to usmash on reaction and yes, you can start the move in time to possibly hit him. But it almost never happens. The massive disjoints on his fair and dair just eat through it.

Why does hitting Yoshi's nose during his fair not hit him? He doesn't have invincibility on it, as I just looked up. Weird.

And Yoshi can't really bait and punish the upsmash. How would he do that? Jump towards you to bait it out, cancel his forward momentum to drift away, then cancel his backwards momentum to drift forward and hit you with a frame 16 Fair? No...

Yoshi baits and punishes the usmash with any fast move, like DA. This isn't a Yoshi exclusive thing. Any character can do that. If her usmash was safe, she would be absolutely overpowered.

But from the air if he were to bait it with a jump, he would just standard b us at the conclusion, or fair. Our usmash isn't lagless you know.

So, what happens when Yoshi can't jump anymore (ESPECIALLY at high percents when upsmash will kill him)? Well, he's forced to either egg camp or make grounded approaches.

Egg camping really isn't hard to deal with (And really, can you think of ONE time a good Yoshi has been egg camping for more than a few seconds?)

We have one answer to egg camping and that DAing under it. I suppose you could just shield and wait it out but that assumes your opponent is impatient. Egg camping is why Yoshi dominates neutral against Rosalina. She's a massive target and it's difficult to dodge them. Gravity pull is not some insane "YOUR PROJECTILES ARE NOW USELESS MWAHAHAHAHA" option. It can take some pressure off but it's just a crutch here.

Next is Yoshi's grounded approach. You can be pretty sure that he's not going to grab you, so he's likely to dash attack.

I hate to take a shot like this, but have you actually played any good Yoshis? Who in their right mind does nothing but grab and dash attack other than noobish Falcon players.

Hit and run fairs are safe on shield and his standard b is definitely a viable grab option, even if it is a bit punishable on a whiff. Yoshi is heavy and nearly ungimpable. He can afford to make mistakes. His standard b is also much faster than his normal grab.

But even then, shielding his DA every time is going to get you grabbed (and unless the shield is at full strength it doesn't cover the Luma). It doesn't matter how ****ty Yoshi's grab is, he can still grab. It's still an option, and you can't rule it out just because it's not amazing like the rest of his moveset.

Lastly, he can fair into jab. You'll see good Yoshis do it. Not all the time, because it can be shield grabbed, but you have to watch out for that too. It's an option Yoshi has and it's very strong.

Just shield it. It's difficult to punish, but definitely possible. And don't forget that Yoshi's dash attack sends things upwards, I believe, so you don't have to worry about it killing Luma too much. Rosalina's tilts and starbits outrange all of yoshi's grounded attacks too, so he can't really poke at you from the ground. Also, egg lay is kinda useless.

His DA doesn't cheese Luma kills like Falcon's does, but he can still kill a Luma with it if we're decently close to the edge.

Fair beats the tilts, except possibly dtilt because Rosalina ducks. Admittingly, I haven't tried to space against him with dtilt because he's usually in the air, but also because...

None of that matters when you consider this: eggs eggs eggs. If he sees we're going for tilts, he just throws eggs. We have one punish for that and tilts are not it. Eggs are his answer for almost every situation in neutral outside of gravity pull, which gives Yoshi stage control. Saying that Rosalina comes remotely close to winning neutral is hogwash because of those eggs.

I'll try to let off some steam here so I think clearly. I think Yoshi deserves to have such an amazing projectile in the eggs. It's his aerials I can't stand.

In terms of mobility, Yoshi is noticeably better. However, this doesn't affect the matchup too much since you will be playing reactively.

Yoshi's mobility and floatiness, and as the last line of defense, his DJ armor, make him impossible to combo. Just because random FG noobs keep trying to use his priority to beat yours at the worst possible places (down b'ing into uair, anyone?) doesn't make that the standard. Careful Yoshis use their mobility to create space.

In terms of Luma killing, dash attack won't work. Forward smash can work but... its forward smash... His aerials don't work since they get beaten out by upsmash. Overall, Yoshi just has difficulty killing Luma.

Yeah, you're probably right about this. Problem is he doesn't need to kill Luma because his aerials just wreck it.

So basically what I'm saying is that ROSALINA WINS NEUTRAL IF SHE PLAYS VERY DEFENSIVELY AND REACTIVELY.

No. Yoshi wins neutral if HE plays very defensively. Because of the eggs. You cannot underestimate how good of a projectile his eggs are.

In terms of juggling Yoshi, it's difficult... But I do believe that our ground speed is higher than his air speed. That means that we could follow him from the ground and upsmash his landings or SH Uair him to keep him above us. It's also worth noting that properly spaced Uair beats Yoshi's aerial down-b.

This is actually true, but Yoshi's fair beats our punish options. He just tosses it out and lands safely. His airspeed is only worse to the point where we can hit him with aerials and the DA.

In terms of combo game (With everything included, such as juggles), Yoshi can usually get 40% damage out of an advantaged state. However, Rosalina gets the about same thing out of an advantaged state because her juggle game is amazing and her attacks do a lot of damage with Luma around... And since Rosalina will usually be winning neutral, she'll be in an advantaged state more often.

Nope. Covered all of this at various points above.

That's not to say that Yoshi gets destroyed in this matchup. He does have a weight advantaged, meaning he dies much later.

If Yoshi weighed as much as Jigglypuff, this matchup would be in Rosalina's favor (for the same reason Jigglypuff is in Rosalina's favor), but as it is now, because he survives so ridiculously long, he destroys Rosalina.

He's pretty much untouchable offstage, so you can't gimp him, but you could still wait for him to grab the ledge and cover getup options.

To some extent you can cover getup options. Yoshi has the option of DJ armoring to the other side of the stage.

In terms of Yoshi edgeguarding you, if you recover very low, landing that spike is very awkward so you can use that to your advantage to get back to the stage safely.

Dead wrong. Well, not entirely. If he just runs off, yes, it's awkward. If Yoshi jumps off the stage backwards, it's trivial.