3.6 Mewtwo Matchup Thread: Where's My Tail Edition

[Plebiscuit]

What's Mewtwo's matchup spread looking like in 3.5? What characters are giving you more trouble than before? Have any matchups gotten noticeably more difficult since 3.02? Easier?

 

[SamSun]

laughed super hard at the title.

My 2 cents: wavedashing and spacing tilts is gonna be much more prevalent in the neutral game.
also Mewtwo probably won't utterly ruin Zelda.

 

[proxibomb]

That shorter tail won't do too well against spacies, with the exception of wolf, who's still annoying to deal with. If they release another update for Project M, they should seriously get rid of his helpless state after using his second and third jump, because that smaller tail isn't hard to deal with as a Mewtwo player from 3.0.

pmbr pls

 

[Plebiscuit]

Fun as it was, dj/hover out of tele needed to go. In an edgeguarding situation, even situations where Mewtwo was (supposed to be) the character getting guarded, the opponent was still in danger. Going offtstage against 3.02 Mewtwo was near suicidal for a lot of the cast. When a character can come back from way deep offstage and threaten someone onstage while doing it, that's just bad design. That said, some of his options got slowed down unecessarily. RIP fast Shadow Ball.

 

[Darkoness21]

With some of the new tools to Ganon's kit, I'm actually afraid of this character. Any tips on how to handle Ganon in 3.5?

 

[xNaught]

With some of the new tools to Ganon's kit, I'm actually afraid of this character. Any tips on how to handle Ganon in 3.5?

I'm guessing all of Ganon's attacks are gonna beat Mewtwo in trades, so be careful if you try to start combos with u-tilt that you don't catch a f-air or b-air. Another move to be wary of is his side-b, though it's easily punishable if you can sidestep/space it correctly.

Other than that, Mewtwo can outspace Ganon, more easily on larger stages. Practice staying out of range of his bigger hits. You can bait an aerial and wavedash away into u-tilt, f-tilt, or even f-smash if you have room. Poke him with shadow ball and see what he does. If you can build a bit of damage and score an u-tilt, try to follow up but be conservative. Ganon's f-air or u-air can put a stop to what you're doing pretty quickly.

 

[Darkoness21]

I'm guessing all of Ganon's attacks are gonna beat Mewtwo in trades, so be careful if you try to start combos with u-tilt that you don't catch a f-air or b-air. Another move to be wary of is his side-b, though it's easily punishable if you can sidestep/space it correctly.

Other than that, Mewtwo can outspace Ganon, more easily on larger stages. Practice staying out of range of his bigger hits. You can bait an aerial and wavedash away into u-tilt, f-tilt, or even f-smash if you have room. Poke him with shadow ball and see what he does. If you can build a bit of damage and score an u-tilt, try to follow up but be conservative. Ganon's f-air or u-air can put a stop to what you're doing pretty quickly.

Alright thanks man! Yeah I notice that fairs would always get me whenever I position incorrectly.

 

[xNaught]

Alright thanks man! Yeah I notice that fairs would always get me whenever I position incorrectly.

Absolutely. That f-air is designed to make you eat it for being out of position, or for being too greedy with follow-ups. Your goal when fighting Ganon should be to get hit by this 0 times.

 

[Darkoness21]

Absolutely. That f-air is designed to make you eat it for being out of position, or for being too greedy with follow-ups. Your goal when fighting Ganon should be to get hit by this 0 times.

Ok. My next question is how to deal with spacies now that bair isn't as strong as it used to be back in 3.02? I know that we can still edgeguard them pretty insanely as well as up throws being good against fastfallers but I'm talking about how to beat them in the neutral. Especially dealing with all that laser pressure.

 

[xNaught]

Ok. My next question is how to deal with spacies now that bair isn't as strong as it used to be back in 3.02? I know that we can still edgeguard them pretty insanely but I'm talking about how to beat them in the neutral. Especially dealing with all that laser pressure.

When you mention laser pressure, I'm assuming you just mean Wolf/Falco? Fox lasers don't stun you, and their damage is rather low, so you're free to approach him as you normally would.

Mewtwo does well with lasers, I think. You'll have to read your opponent, block one, and from there you can either jump and float toward him or jump to cancel your shield and teleport, catching him with f-air or n-air. Once you're in, don't let him back out. Learn what Mewtwo can do against spacies and keep them staggered.

Wolf is a bit trickier, since he can waveland after using his lasers and fade away from you. This mix-up takes a lot of practice to counter, but in general you can expect less lasers and more follow-ups from Wolf. Try to read when he's going to follow up. If you see wolf dash at you and jump, be ready for his n-air. It hits a lot and then he'll usually follow up with a shine or two.

 

[Darkoness21]

What MUs would you say Mewtwo has a difficult time now in 3.5?

 

[Plebiscuit]

What MUs would you say Mewtwo has a difficult time now in 3.5?

I've been struggling (more) against the Links since 3.5 dropped. Disjoints plus projectiles plus circle camping (effing Tink) plus priority minus most of Mewtwo's reliable approach options equals pain. Marth and Ike are slightly more challenging post-3.02, but neither matchup is completely unwinnable. You need to be super cautious with spacing, since they still have their range and we, well, y'know. I'd say everyone with a sword at least soft-counters Mewtwo now, but I don't have any good Roys nearby, so I can't quite personally make that claim yet.

 

[Darkoness21]

I was just watching the match with Frozen against NinjaLink. I believe this will help you against the Link MU.
http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/592071037

@02:13 and 02:56 is where the match begins between Mewtwo and Link. Frozen did an excellent handling the pressure NinjaLink was exerting. From what I've seen and learned about the Link MU, you want to be inside their range and you don't want to give them any space for them to spam projectiles at you. Link's weight is really good for Mewtwo's combo game like d-tilt into hover u-air leading into u-air strings. And use your charged shadow ball whenever they mistech. That's my two cents about the MU. I'm pretty sure other people can give more information but I hope what I said helps.

 

[Designs]

Having already played in tournament with 3.5 Mewtwo, I can tell you that Ganon is a tough match. Trades are mostly in his (Ganon's) favor. The best approach is as fore-mentioned by poking with shadow ball. Although buffed, Big G has issues dealing with Mewtwo's N-air if completed out of hover in order to get safe distance. They may try to close gap with Down B to which I would spot dodge/wavedash back -> Grab (shock x 2/3) -> D Throw -> U-Smash. By doing this you could possibly chain Galaxy spiral on them followed by a hover b-air to finish.

 

[Designs]

Also,

With the advent of 3.0 Mario's D-tilt, Mewtwo now has the options of juggling fairly easy with D-Tilt -> U-Tilt (1-3x) -> Confusion -> Back Wavedash -> Disable. This almost 0-Death an unexpected opponent that uses their jumps too quickly in a frantic escape attempt.

 

[Kudrah]

Some matchups could be worse now because of that tail shorten. I think the Marth matchup is now worse because he outranges him now, but Roy's more favorable since it's easier to gimp him than Marth.

 

[Scop_]

I don't play Mewtwo, but I have a question to ask the Mewtwo community: who seems to be the best counter-pick(s) to Mewtwo in 3.5? From what I've read here, Ganon seems fine, but are there other characters that are maybe not flat-out counters, but a lot more troublesome than the average?

 

[Plebiscuit]

"Are there other characters that are maybe not flat-out counters, but a lot more troublesome than the average?"

Anyone who outright forces Mewtwo to approach. If a character can camp hard and punish unsafe approaches hard, that's going to be a steep uphill battle. Toon Link may not be a hard counter, but he can be a hard matchup if you fight him on the wrong stage (e.g. Dreamland, aka Circle Camp City).

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Yo guys, was wondering what you think about the Mewtwo Marth matchup in 3.5? Was considering picking him up as a secondary for Marth, but wasn't sure if it was worth it.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Yo guys, was wondering what you think about the Mewtwo Marth matchup in 3.5? Was considering picking him up as a secondary for Marth, but wasn't sure if it was worth it.

I could probably get back to you on this come sunday/monday.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Wolf does fine against Marth, certainly well enough that you have no business picking up a secondary just for that matchup. I'd also argue that Mewtwo is a less than ideal choice of secondary in terms of covering matchups because of the amount of effort and unique tech involved in playing him well. Playing him out of interest in the character is an entirely different matter... Also not sure that Mewtwo would be a significant upgrade in that particular matchup but again, Wolf does fine.

 

[Darkoness21]

Can anyone tell me about the Sonic and Pikachu MU in 3.5? Like I feel as though my game gets thrown off because of their speed and weaving in and out of my zone

 

[Somedutch]

So rather obscure, but I think Game and Watch may be a Mewtwo counter. Most of GW's moves either trade positively or outright win, a lot of his moves are disjointed and outrange Mewtwo's, and he can CC down tilt most things you send his way even at high percentages. Really the only advantage I found that Mewtwo has on him is mobility. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Darkoness21]

So rather obscure, but I think Game and Watch may be a Mewtwo counter. Most of GW's moves either trade positively or outright win, a lot of his moves are disjointed and outrange Mewtwo's, and he can CC down tilt most things you send his way even at high percentages. Really the only advantage I found that Mewtwo has on him is mobility. Any thoughts on this?

Against G&W you don't want to d-tilt challenge him because like you said it his d-tilt will beat out yours. From what Frozen has told me, you generally want to space them out with your f-tilts. G&W gets killed off easily from the top due to his weight class so shadow claw and up-throw are your best options in this situation. You also juggle G&W with your u-airs if you're under him. If you predict the Key-Blade, side step out of the way and punish. Have little use with your uncharged shadow balls. Use your charged one and use it whenever they mistech. That's all I can think of at the moment for the G&W MU. Hope this helps :]

 

[Shockbound]

I just so happen to main Game and Watch and picked up Mewtwo a few days ago.

They are quite similar in that they both have few safe approach options. Abusing your mobility will allow you to take advantage of his very bad neutral game. He relies on Neutral-B to create openings, so by using Confusion you can bring his bacon back home and probably get a free F-Air on him. His out-of-shield game is very strong thanks to his Up-B, so be cautious about challenging his shield with aerials.

He has a lot of disjoint, but B-Air should beat most of what he can throw at you. I'm pretty sure B-Air can swat away bacon too, so try to use this move defensively until he ends up making a mistake. This matchup is going to be very oriented on baiting and punishing mistakes since it's what you are both best at. Both of you can also escape combos in nothing flat, and since G&W has a frame 1 hitbox on his Up-B you'd better make sure you ensure that your combos are true combos. Don't be surprised if games against him consist of 0-deaths for each stock that you trade.

His horizontal recovery is very predictable and slow. Get out there and B-Air him whenever you have the chance, there will be nothing he can do to recover once his jump and bucket-stall are gone. His Up-B helps him move somewhat horizontally too though, so make sure each B-Air hit is sending him further and further away from the stage.

If he CC D-Tilts then you SH F-Air. You can hit him from right over his manhole since his entire head is just sitting there while he flips it around. He gets sent up, you string together a few aerials on him, and it's a KO. It should be pretty easy to tell when he's trying to CC D-Tilt; his crouch animation also has a distinct audio cue to go along with it. Evaluate the situation and see if SH F-Air is a good option. F-Tilt will barely reach over the manhole and I don't recommend using it unless you are certain that you weren't going to be hit by his D-Tilt anyway (e.g. your F-Tilt is going to hit him first).

You can technically challenge his D-Air, but it makes a lot more sense to go after him from his sides rather than from under him. Remove any soft platforms between you and him, since his key will go straight through it and hit your very tall model. B-Air fits this situation pretty well.

Let me know if you have any specific problems with G&W. I'd type more, but it's 2AM. Sorry if some of what I typed here is incoherent #sleepjohns

 

[Somedutch]

I just so happen to main Game and Watch and picked up Mewtwo a few days ago.

They are quite similar in that they both have few safe approach options. Abusing your mobility will allow you to take advantage of his very bad neutral game. He relies on Neutral-B to create openings, so by using Confusion you can bring his bacon back home and probably get a free F-Air on him. His out-of-shield game is very strong thanks to his Up-B, so be cautious about challenging his shield with aerials.

He has a lot of disjoint, but B-Air should beat most of what he can throw at you. I'm pretty sure B-Air can swat away bacon too, so try to use this move defensively until he ends up making a mistake. This matchup is going to be very oriented on baiting and punishing mistakes since it's what you are both best at. Both of you can also escape combos in nothing flat, and since G&W has a frame 1 hitbox on his Up-B you'd better make sure you ensure that your combos are true combos. Don't be surprised if games against him consist of 0-deaths for each stock that you trade.

His horizontal recovery is very predictable and slow. Get out there and B-Air him whenever you have the chance, there will be nothing he can do to recover once his jump and bucket-stall are gone. His Up-B helps him move somewhat horizontally too though, so make sure each B-Air hit is sending him further and further away from the stage.

If he CC D-Tilts then you SH F-Air. You can hit him from right over his manhole since his entire head is just sitting there while he flips it around. He gets sent up, you string together a few aerials on him, and it's a KO. It should be pretty easy to tell when he's trying to CC D-Tilt; his crouch animation also has a distinct audio cue to go along with it. Evaluate the situation and see if SH F-Air is a good option. F-Tilt will barely reach over the manhole and I don't recommend using it unless you are certain that you weren't going to be hit by his D-Tilt anyway (e.g. your F-Tilt is going to hit him first).

You can technically challenge his D-Air, but it makes a lot more sense to go after him from his sides rather than from under him. Remove any soft platforms between you and him, since his key will go straight through it and hit your very tall model. B-Air fits this situation pretty well.

Let me know if you have any specific problems with G&W. I'd type more, but it's 2AM. Sorry if some of what I typed here is incoherent #sleepjohns

I played this matchup with a friend that mains GW and I ended up discovering a lot of this out. The SH F-Air to counter Dtilt is something I'm going to need to work on it sounds like. Ultimately the way I managed to swing things in my favor was to space things out properly, abuse hover and wavelands to get in and out of his range when necessary, and use Bairs to rack up some damage and occasionally combo out of whenever applicable. I tended to have the best luck whenever I baited an approach and responded with a wavedash away into hover Bair followed into a Nair that I could hover cancel into whatever tilt felt appropriate at the time to react to his DI. The MU forced me to learn how to consistently incorporate a lot of the more advanced movement options for mewtwo, so at least there's that. I found that whenever GW tried to neutral B I could punish by teleporting into Nair. You think that's a reliable method for most GW's, or just his? Thanks for the replies Shockbound and Darkoness21.

Probably the biggest surprise is that GW's Nair neutralizes max charge shadow balls.

 

[Shockbound]

Teleporting through his bacon is a great idea. He relies on you being unable to effectively maneuver around it, so if you teleport through all of that you take away a lot of his options. The common thing for most 3.5 G&W's to do is Neutral-B twice in one shorthop and then run straight at you with a F-Air, hoping that you either respect his space and back away or that you get put into hitstun. Being able to immediately punish that with a well placed teleport means he can't put out any more bacon for a little while, since he already has two bacons on the field already (a result of the 3.5 patch). The distance he would be trying to Neutral-B from is pretty much the exact same distance as your teleport, but only as long as you are both on the ground. If you're on a platform, then G&W can just hang out and flip his greasy meats at you for free from underneath. Should still be punishable though; if you were any other character there wouldn't be much you could do.

I find it very surprising you managed to figure out that Shadow Ball is neutralized by N-Air, since N-Air takes an incredibly long time to come out. All of his smash attacks can also neutralize it, but I suppose that isn't as surprising as an aerial doing 17%. I'm pretty sure that this isn't an issue in the matchup though, since trying to do that as G&W is far too risky and it would make a whole lot more sense to just bucket it.

That's pretty funny though.

 

[Shockbound]

Also important to note is that his weight and fallspeed are nearly identical to that of Kirby's, so he dies at relatively low %s. He is particularly susceptible to dying off of the top since his bucket can usually save him from dying horizontally. An up-throw at like 90% will probably kill him on most low ceiling stages.

Here's a nifty little chart that represents the weight and fallspeed of every single character in the game:

This should help you Mewtwos out there figure out what % people die from up-throw at and whether you should opt for back-throw instead.

 

[~Frozen~]

GnW won't be dying to Uthrow below 100% unless it's like Yoshi's Story, as long as he's DI'ing correctly. Throw KB isn't dependent on weight, the thing that affects Uthrow survivability is fall speed. GnW's still rather floaty, but he'll live a tad longer than some more extreme floaties. FWIW, Mewtwo dies on FD at about 104-105% (pre-throw damage) with DI, so GnW will survive a bit longer than that (and FD's ceiling is a bit lower than average)

 

[Shockbound]

Oh, I was talking like somewhere in the 90% range pre-throw, before he takes the 12 damage; I know it's based on fall speed. In any case, I'm trying to say that Mewtwo's up-throw is pretty rad on relatively slow fallers like G&W.

I would be recommending back-throw on G&W if he couldn't just DI upwards and bucket before he reaches the blastzone, then descend from an angle that's a little bit safer than from directly above Mewtwo. Bucket braking gives him a lot of horizontal endurance despite him being the 4th lightest character in the game.

 

[Somedutch]

GnW won't be dying to Uthrow below 100% unless it's like Yoshi's Story, as long as he's DI'ing correctly. Throw KB isn't dependent on weight, the thing that affects Uthrow survivability is fall speed. GnW's still rather floaty, but he'll live a tad longer than some more extreme floaties. FWIW, Mewtwo dies on FD at about 104-105% (pre-throw damage) with DI, so GnW will survive a bit longer than that (and FD's ceiling is a bit lower than average)

Thank you for going through the specifics on that. I actually noticed that he was surviving my U throws up till about 100% like you said so I stopped trying to commit to grabs until he was in the 100% or so range. The play style against GW that seemed to work best for me was a hit and run approach up until kill percentages. Forced him to overcommit since whenever he tried to bacon I would just teleport in for a few pokes and wavedash or teleport out. Dance about a bit with wavedashes, wavelands, hovering, and teleports to bait him in, and punish with easy up airs, back airs, or neutral airs into either a follow up tilt, or retreat and repeat. Wasn't perfect, but not only did it make the MU possible, it also gave me the perfect environment to experiment and perfect Mewtwo's movement options. I would actually recommend attempting this MU in friendlies for any upcoming Mewtwo players just because it forces you to learn and implement all of your character's utility.

 

[Darkoness21]

Does anyone have any insight to the R.O.B MU? It seems really obscure and I want to be better prepared for it.

 

[Garr]

I need help in the Squirtle MU. Seems like everything I do doesn't faze his armor.

 

[~Frozen~]

For the purpose of stirring up some discussion in this thread:
Invalidated by Mewtwo:
N/A

Lose Badly to Mewtwo:


Lose Moderately to Mewtwo:


Lose Slightly to Mewtwo:


Roughly even:


Beat Mewtwo Slightly:


Beat Mewtwo Moderately:


Crushes SLAMS Mewtwo:


Invalidates Mewtwo:
Kappa


Opinions? Agree/Disagree? I'm still a bit shaky on some like Fox, Yoshi, and Shaq. Some positions could still fluctuate though i.e may move Fox to "Beat Mewtwo Slightly"

 

[Plebiscuit]

In my experience, DK goes fairly even with Mewtwo. Maybe I'm just playing the MU wrong, but it doesn't seem like DK has any real disadvantage. The Lucario matchup is hell if you let him touch your shield (guaranteed 50% at least if you get command grabbed) but if Mewtwo can zone and punish hard enough, it's fine. Luke's also pretty free to edgeguard if you learn how to deal with Extremespeed.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I agree with Frozen, Mewtwo beats DK.

I'm not sold on Link beating Mewtwo, and I definitely don't see Ganondorf winning the matchup even though I think he's underrated atm.

I feel like Marth is even, maybe slight advantage Mewtwo if you're godlike. His neutral is very strong against Mewtwo, but he has a hard time comboing Mewtwo and unlike vs say... Samus, Mewtwo has options for coming down vs Marth and thus forces the Marth to think about option coverage rather than simply juggling into oblivion. Killing Mewtwo as Marth is really, really hard if the Mewtwo is on point.

I would move Wolf up to slight disadvantage. Peach loses. Ike might win. Couple others in there I'm not quite comfortable putting numbers on yet.

Actually, @ DMG what are your thoughts on Falcon-Mewtwo?

 

[DMG]

I dunno. I lost to Denthorn last weekend, but he's probably one of the most qualified in the MU period. I know he played as Falcon in Melee and PM for awhile, and he's beaten other good Falcon players before with M2. I'd say old Mewtwo most certainly won, and this iteration might be evenish or 5 points for Mewtwo. Hesitant to call it Falcon advantage. I haven't been using Falcon for this MU until last week so don't have any strong impressions. Maybe another Mewtwo traveling to Aftershock in March would give me more insight and a better opinion, one way or the other

Biggest point that sticks out is to not be greedy with edgeguards if you miss the first float Bair or generic option. With how big Bair is, and Uair sometimes, you can afford to miss without using a ton of momentum to go off, and reposition before Falcon can get "past" you. Keep your edge and space advantage, you don't have to give it up so easily or aggressively if you don't have the timing or the read to pull it off.

 

[Garr]

DK's more even.

- well-spaced Nair and Bair outrange you and difficult to punish in the neutral
- Cargoes literally work on everyone except Jiggs/Zelda
- THAT. F***ING. JAB.
- DK can't die past 150 if you suck at edgeguarding

+ Combo buffet for you (just watch out for CC)
+ Disjoints
+ Bair, footstooling and tele-edgehogs murder DK's recovery
+ Abuse teleport in large stages

Overall, I think DK only beats you in neutral if you're in a stage smaller than Battlefield. Teleport is more viable in larger ones, and using it for spacing can help get around that ape. Edgeguarding is where Mewtwo dominates in the MU. The trajectory of Dk's recovery is pretty easy to read, but you'll probably have to hit him back multiples time to secure a stock. It's like edgeguarding a Falcon in Melee.

 

[Boiko]

Lose Slightly to Mewtwo:

COMING FOR YOU ON SUNDAY.

 

[~Frozen~]

Some slightly newer thoughts:

Yeaaaa I don't really think Marth beats Mewtwo anymore. Marth has a lot of trouble killing him especially when you hold down to escape Tippers off the Dthrow/Fthrow mixup.

I think a large part of why Mewtwo won vs Falcon in 3.0 was because of him having the best Utilt in the game. Now, it pales in comparison, and Falcon still kills M2 at 70 off a grab. Edgeguarding/combo'ing him is naturally pretty free still, but Falcon's Uair has no trouble bodying Mewtwo right back since his physics are comparable to Peach. I feel like jumping in with a teleport Nair randomly is often better than trying to play the waiting game with superleftrightbrosthecharacter, since it's not too much of a risk as long as you don't spam it, it invades Falcon's DD space, and if it hits it puts him into a pretty sour position usually (tech chase/offstage). I don't play Falcons often though, so maybe I should watch a few of Denthorn's vids. I admit I'm kinda weak in the MU so a little bias went into my initial judgment.

Starting to think Peach loses a little more than I originally thought but you have to play pretty damn lame since she might as well be a walking hitbox, and you don't wanna get CC'd (which is difficult because almost all of Mewtwo's moves can be even at mid %'s) or trade with any move that isn't his Fair, Dsmash or Fsmash. Thank god Uthrow kills her as early as it does though.

I've had pretty moderate success vs DJ Nintendo and Ally in the Ike MU, I lost to them both barely somewhat recently, but I chalk that up more to just being outplayed than it being a bad MU. That said, I'm not sure how well either of them understand Mewtwo, probably not too much given that they're more invested in Melee and S4 respectively.

Gonna update my chart with those thoughts.