G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
Since bowser has recently been a target of major redesign, i feel it proper to offer some feedback and suggestions to the developers, and would encourage others to do the same.
Overall, I feel this bowser is in a decent spot design wise (at least compared to 3.5), and is not too far from being complete. 3.6b took the right direction with bowser, and 3.6 patched up some of the weakspots, like frame data on smashes, and having an effective side b punish. however, there are still a couple semi major things that I believe need to be addressed. My roomate mains bowser, and I also play him relatively often, so I know bowser in a lot of MUs from both perspectives, and we both have a very good idea of where his current crutches and weakpoints lie. Ill start with my suggestions below, and move on to describe how they apply to bowser from both a balance, and design perspective. the numbers also reflect my opinion on the relative importance of the changes (i.e. number 1 will be the most important).
1.) Standard Grab:
- decrease start up to reflect a normal grab (ie. starts on frame 7)
-slightly increase range
This is probably the biggest thing. at the moment, bowser has a very solid punish game, but his neutral game is still terrible, even with some of the movement buffs. honestly, after playing countless matches with bowser, the best thing I can do is to not approach him. everything he does is punishable, and just DD camping him and making him do something is enough to get a punish. despite the buffs to his command grab, its still not a tool for neutral, and doesnt particularly have the range. bowser needs a safer approach option that will deal with CCing at lower percents. Additionally, he needs an option OOS that will get him some reward and help his defensive game out. his OOS game is honestly terrible. his up b is quick, but extremely punishable and doesnt get bowser anything but a reset to neutral. frame 9 for a grab OOS is atrocious for such a small grab range. This is a point in bowsers design that has him fundamentally flawed atm, imo. Theres a lot of great things that have been done to his design in the past couple of patches, and i think tgiving him a proper grab is the major last step
2.) Jumpsquat / Landing lag:
-Jumpsquat reduced to 5 frames (from 6)
-Empty landing lag reduced to 4 frames (from 6)
This here is something ive been pushing for for awhile. Bowser and DDD are the only characters that have a frame 6 jumpsquat and a 6 frame empty landing lag. every other character has either a 3,4,or 5 frame jumpsquat, and a 4 frame empty landing lag. Ganon, m2, DK, and zard have a 5 frame empty landing lag. I personally thing that every ones empty landing lag should decrease to 4 frames, and the jumpsquats limited to either 3,4, or 5 frames. For bowser, this would allow him some additionally flexibility for WD OOS, as well as a quicker transition to the air in general. The empty landing lag reduction would also create some minor, but noticeable speed changes, and allow bowser more flexibility in movement. It would allow him quicker OOS options (like WD OOS and nair OOS) and it would also grant him more flexibility in neutral game mix ups, like jumping and feigning attacks on shield, then landing and grabbing or spacing ftilts/jabs/grabs. Since he will get into the air quicker, and land quicker, his overall movement against some of his rougher MUs will improve, and allow him to cope better. It also does not make sense from a design perspective why two characters alone have absurdly large frame data attributes like these. I know they were already normalized down slightly, but I think that its not enough atm. Its still very clunky.
3.) Dsmash:
-reduce number of hits
-move hitboxes closer to body to reduce disjoint slightly
- decrease endlag
This move currently is bowsers biggest crutch. You can CC to hell with it, it eats approaches, covers multiple tech options, covers almost every get up option from the ledge, kills, and the range on the hitboxes is a tad absurd. I believe bowser needs this quick, multi hit, frame 8 dsmash, but its got a lot of fat on it right now that makes bowser over reliant on it. when bowsers optimal option to cover ledge get up options is 3 dsmashes in a row that cover get up attack, jump, roll, and (if timed right) most ledge hopped options with invincibility (the armor is a big factor here), it might be time to shave off some of the overwhelming attributes of the move, and keep what is necessary for his defensive attributes. 3 dsmashes in a row is a slight exageration, but in general, a bowser that is bombarding the ledge with smash attacks and armored dtils is doing a pretty good job. if the number of hits was cut down, i could see some endlag being shaved off too. but the biggest thing is that this has now become an extremely fast, armored move that possesses immense disjoint around AND above him. even some of the better dsmashes in the game, like peach's and robs dsmashes dont function like this. This is a move that generally falls in the category for me of making me want to interact less because of its near impenetrable properties.
4.) up b:
-invincibility starts on frame 3
This is something that will allow for a better OOS dynamic with my suggestion for an improved grab. frame 1 invincibility is overkill, despite it coming from melee. If you reduce the start up, you still have an option that lets you escape tight pressure, but it doesnt become your most reliable option every single time. This is great from a design perspective because it would encourage players to more carefully and thoughtfully choose their OOS options. Additionally, adding some start up to the invincibility would be another thing that would prevent opponents from choosing not to interact with bowsers shield. Since bowser would have a faster, and more legitimate conversion OOS with my proposed grab, as well as more solid escape options like WD OOS and nair OOS, I think this change would be good for gameplay.
5.) Dtilt
- armor start up increased to match start up of crawl armor, or removed altogether.
with the prescence of a very potent dsmash, and an already heavy character, i think its acceptable to say that bowser should not have the potency of additional armor frames (that start on frame 1) to compliment a CC dtilt, especially when dtilt can already swipe low approaches out of the air, due to its size. having a frame 8 crawl armor is acceptable, and so is some armor on dash attack, nair, and smashes, but on a tilt attack i think its a crutch and doesnt need to be there. This is another contributing factor to my general gameplay against bowser of "dont approach," or in design terms, "dont interact." with a game so heavily reliant on CCing atm, i think i would be best to not make bowsers CC too good. hes already the heaviest character and has additional crawl armor. i think its a better design to have a slightly larger hole in his armor when hes using a lesser-commitment move like this. Since my proposed design has given him better overall defensive and neutral game buffs already, i think this is warranted and good for gameplay.
6.) Neutral b:
-hitboxes reduce over time to unflinchable hitboxes
this is a design thing really. Its never fun to just spam neutral b at the ledge and keep someone in a near infinite chain of up bs while theyre trying to get past a fire breath edge guard that only tacks on absurd damage. to get 10 or 15 damage is one thing, but to get like 40 damage because the flames guard the edge so well for so long is a bit much. additionally, this can be a big impact on tether characters, and i dont think that bowsers flame breath should really be too good of an edge guard move on these characters based on the punishes he can implement from their tether hops.
Overall, these things are it. I think if they were implemented, it would create a more balanced character, that preserves the flavor of who bowser is, but helps bring him in line with the rest of the cast by improving some of the more standard fundamental options that characters have. If I were to look at how this affected the cast in general, i think the outcome would be positive. bowser would still have very difficult MUs against the most mobile characters in the game, but he would have an improved neutral game to cope, and improved defensive attributes (OOS in general, especially grab) to deal with heavy pressure. he would have less of a reliance on certain crutches, like his crazy dsmash and frame 1 dtilt armor, which will force him to use his improved mobility to land some of his more effective punishes, spacing options, and mixups, especially on the ledge. These changes will also improve the desire for interaction in general, and a neutral game versus bowser is no longer stagnant and repetitive. I cant see any MUs where this will offer a lopsided advantage in bowsers favor, as he still has some of his major flaws in tact (like being a big target, with generally laggier moves, and few conversion options out of neutral).
Overall, I feel this bowser is in a decent spot design wise (at least compared to 3.5), and is not too far from being complete. 3.6b took the right direction with bowser, and 3.6 patched up some of the weakspots, like frame data on smashes, and having an effective side b punish. however, there are still a couple semi major things that I believe need to be addressed. My roomate mains bowser, and I also play him relatively often, so I know bowser in a lot of MUs from both perspectives, and we both have a very good idea of where his current crutches and weakpoints lie. Ill start with my suggestions below, and move on to describe how they apply to bowser from both a balance, and design perspective. the numbers also reflect my opinion on the relative importance of the changes (i.e. number 1 will be the most important).
1.) Standard Grab:
- decrease start up to reflect a normal grab (ie. starts on frame 7)
-slightly increase range
This is probably the biggest thing. at the moment, bowser has a very solid punish game, but his neutral game is still terrible, even with some of the movement buffs. honestly, after playing countless matches with bowser, the best thing I can do is to not approach him. everything he does is punishable, and just DD camping him and making him do something is enough to get a punish. despite the buffs to his command grab, its still not a tool for neutral, and doesnt particularly have the range. bowser needs a safer approach option that will deal with CCing at lower percents. Additionally, he needs an option OOS that will get him some reward and help his defensive game out. his OOS game is honestly terrible. his up b is quick, but extremely punishable and doesnt get bowser anything but a reset to neutral. frame 9 for a grab OOS is atrocious for such a small grab range. This is a point in bowsers design that has him fundamentally flawed atm, imo. Theres a lot of great things that have been done to his design in the past couple of patches, and i think tgiving him a proper grab is the major last step
2.) Jumpsquat / Landing lag:
-Jumpsquat reduced to 5 frames (from 6)
-Empty landing lag reduced to 4 frames (from 6)
This here is something ive been pushing for for awhile. Bowser and DDD are the only characters that have a frame 6 jumpsquat and a 6 frame empty landing lag. every other character has either a 3,4,or 5 frame jumpsquat, and a 4 frame empty landing lag. Ganon, m2, DK, and zard have a 5 frame empty landing lag. I personally thing that every ones empty landing lag should decrease to 4 frames, and the jumpsquats limited to either 3,4, or 5 frames. For bowser, this would allow him some additionally flexibility for WD OOS, as well as a quicker transition to the air in general. The empty landing lag reduction would also create some minor, but noticeable speed changes, and allow bowser more flexibility in movement. It would allow him quicker OOS options (like WD OOS and nair OOS) and it would also grant him more flexibility in neutral game mix ups, like jumping and feigning attacks on shield, then landing and grabbing or spacing ftilts/jabs/grabs. Since he will get into the air quicker, and land quicker, his overall movement against some of his rougher MUs will improve, and allow him to cope better. It also does not make sense from a design perspective why two characters alone have absurdly large frame data attributes like these. I know they were already normalized down slightly, but I think that its not enough atm. Its still very clunky.
3.) Dsmash:
-reduce number of hits
-move hitboxes closer to body to reduce disjoint slightly
- decrease endlag
This move currently is bowsers biggest crutch. You can CC to hell with it, it eats approaches, covers multiple tech options, covers almost every get up option from the ledge, kills, and the range on the hitboxes is a tad absurd. I believe bowser needs this quick, multi hit, frame 8 dsmash, but its got a lot of fat on it right now that makes bowser over reliant on it. when bowsers optimal option to cover ledge get up options is 3 dsmashes in a row that cover get up attack, jump, roll, and (if timed right) most ledge hopped options with invincibility (the armor is a big factor here), it might be time to shave off some of the overwhelming attributes of the move, and keep what is necessary for his defensive attributes. 3 dsmashes in a row is a slight exageration, but in general, a bowser that is bombarding the ledge with smash attacks and armored dtils is doing a pretty good job. if the number of hits was cut down, i could see some endlag being shaved off too. but the biggest thing is that this has now become an extremely fast, armored move that possesses immense disjoint around AND above him. even some of the better dsmashes in the game, like peach's and robs dsmashes dont function like this. This is a move that generally falls in the category for me of making me want to interact less because of its near impenetrable properties.
4.) up b:
-invincibility starts on frame 3
This is something that will allow for a better OOS dynamic with my suggestion for an improved grab. frame 1 invincibility is overkill, despite it coming from melee. If you reduce the start up, you still have an option that lets you escape tight pressure, but it doesnt become your most reliable option every single time. This is great from a design perspective because it would encourage players to more carefully and thoughtfully choose their OOS options. Additionally, adding some start up to the invincibility would be another thing that would prevent opponents from choosing not to interact with bowsers shield. Since bowser would have a faster, and more legitimate conversion OOS with my proposed grab, as well as more solid escape options like WD OOS and nair OOS, I think this change would be good for gameplay.
5.) Dtilt
- armor start up increased to match start up of crawl armor, or removed altogether.
with the prescence of a very potent dsmash, and an already heavy character, i think its acceptable to say that bowser should not have the potency of additional armor frames (that start on frame 1) to compliment a CC dtilt, especially when dtilt can already swipe low approaches out of the air, due to its size. having a frame 8 crawl armor is acceptable, and so is some armor on dash attack, nair, and smashes, but on a tilt attack i think its a crutch and doesnt need to be there. This is another contributing factor to my general gameplay against bowser of "dont approach," or in design terms, "dont interact." with a game so heavily reliant on CCing atm, i think i would be best to not make bowsers CC too good. hes already the heaviest character and has additional crawl armor. i think its a better design to have a slightly larger hole in his armor when hes using a lesser-commitment move like this. Since my proposed design has given him better overall defensive and neutral game buffs already, i think this is warranted and good for gameplay.
6.) Neutral b:
-hitboxes reduce over time to unflinchable hitboxes
this is a design thing really. Its never fun to just spam neutral b at the ledge and keep someone in a near infinite chain of up bs while theyre trying to get past a fire breath edge guard that only tacks on absurd damage. to get 10 or 15 damage is one thing, but to get like 40 damage because the flames guard the edge so well for so long is a bit much. additionally, this can be a big impact on tether characters, and i dont think that bowsers flame breath should really be too good of an edge guard move on these characters based on the punishes he can implement from their tether hops.
Overall, these things are it. I think if they were implemented, it would create a more balanced character, that preserves the flavor of who bowser is, but helps bring him in line with the rest of the cast by improving some of the more standard fundamental options that characters have. If I were to look at how this affected the cast in general, i think the outcome would be positive. bowser would still have very difficult MUs against the most mobile characters in the game, but he would have an improved neutral game to cope, and improved defensive attributes (OOS in general, especially grab) to deal with heavy pressure. he would have less of a reliance on certain crutches, like his crazy dsmash and frame 1 dtilt armor, which will force him to use his improved mobility to land some of his more effective punishes, spacing options, and mixups, especially on the ledge. These changes will also improve the desire for interaction in general, and a neutral game versus bowser is no longer stagnant and repetitive. I cant see any MUs where this will offer a lopsided advantage in bowsers favor, as he still has some of his major flaws in tact (like being a big target, with generally laggier moves, and few conversion options out of neutral).
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