3.6 ZSS Discussion

[Roche_CL]

Yeap, I was talking the same with my friends. Besides ZSS, there were also some unreasonable changes to some mid low tier chars, like... they removed Warios dash grab animation bluff, nerfed Ike's recovery, come oon, was Ike's recovery too good? he was hard to edgeguard but that was to compensate the lack of travel distance...
Were they too good in the actual metagame?
Isn't fox, falco and sheik too good? I mean, before 3.5 they were pretty good, now with all the nerfs to the other cast, pm's tier list will look familar to some other game I know, and we will start seeing fox dittos in GF, reminds me of.. never mind.

I was so happy when they posted the "treaming the fat" post, but the nerfs were supposed to be to recoveries and high tier chars, not all the cast -.-

 

[Legit]

They mostly just nerfed Brawl characters it seems, with a few exceptions. For some reason they are literally trying to be Melee. They shouldn't be trying to draw in Melee players because they have already drawn in the ones that were willing to give PM a shot in the first place. The melee players that exist now that don't play Project M are the ones that will likely stay exclusively Melee no matter what kind of changes the PMDT makes. They should be trying to bring in new players while simultaneously keeping their current fanbase happy. Is losing/pissing off half your players worth bringing in a few Melee players?

P.S. It still bewilders me why the PMDT thinks dash cancel lazer is "polarizing", but 1-frame JC shines aren't. Like, for real?
It'd be great if a PMDT member could shed some light on why that is. Even if the reason is "cuz Melee", I want to hear it.

 

[Legit]

To the PMDT:

http://smashboards.com/threads/dimensional-cape-drift.378879/

^ Now THAT is polarizing, lol.

 

[Shokio]

I asked a while back for someone to show me example footage of the paralyzer being polarized. Seriously, outta Oro?!, Numerics, Xaltis, JW, Vixen, I'll see them use the paralyzer once every 30 seconds. Where did the Dev Team see the DC Paralyzer winning a ZSS player the match? Shutting down another character's neutral game? I would really like to know where the "polarizing" claim comes from.

But yeah, there's an obvious bias toward the Melee characters.

Falcon literally uses aerials only. Throw into knee pretty much will work at any percent. DI'ing down and away will still get you knee'd
Falco literally uses 3 moves to beat you: Lasers, shine, and Dair.
Fox shine's, up-throw to up-air works at kill percents, and Up-Smash is still ******** even after the slight nerf. Nair is bulls***.
All Peaches DO is float cancel!
Shiek is just Ftilts, down-throws, and Fairs.

^THAT'S polarizing. But let's get rid of a simple dash-cancel amirite?

 

[Roche_CL]

Lol at the MK cape thingy, they will probably remove it in the next patch. PMDT is more fond to remove advanced tech n stuff than nerfing them. -_-

 

[Legit]

PMDT is more fond to remove advanced tech n stuff

of Brawl characters.

 

[Roche_CL]

Thx for the correction.
Cause garuanteed shine -> Wavedash -> Usmash / whatever, isn't OP.

 

[Legit]

Thx for the correction.
Cause garuanteed shine -> Wavedash -> Usmash / whatever, isn't OP.

Precisely!

 

[Haku125]

After a ZSS in 3.02 beat me in tournament I got really interested in the character, it just seemed like she was so fluid with her movement and approaches (even when I was getting beaten, dash canceled paralyzer didn't seem broken in the slightest, just a good approach you have to avoid), and after a little break from smash I started playing around with her in 3.5. She is not the character I wanted to pick up, or at least she isn't that character anymore. The overall nerfs to Brawl characters are allowing Melee players to basically walk into the PM scene and play what is starting to become "Melee With Other Characters". I don't really see justification for removing dash canceled paralyzer while Fox can still waveshine up smash and kill half the cast at like 80%

 

[CyberZixx]

Fox, Falcon, Fox sure, critique their design. I agree what the way Melee characters were given a free pass to the general balancing this patch is a real soul note, but I think Peach and Sheik to a lesser extent are well designed.

 

[Legit]

Fox, Falcon, Fox sure, critique their design. I agree what the way Melee characters were given a free pass to the general balancing this patch is a real soul note, but I think Peach and Sheik to a lesser extent are well designed.

I'm lost....

 

[InfinityCollision]

Fox's design obviously needs to be critiqued twice.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Game design is compromise. Often compromise between developers themselves. If there is one head developer, it's going to be compromise between them and the players. There aren't blacks and whites for game design- you have to have a goal for the design and determine how to meet it. Among those goals for PM are character balance. Homogeny helps a lot bringing characters into line in terms of potential character balance. Variety is the opposite of that, and while it broadens the audience of people who can enjoy a part of a game, also risks posing balance issues and alienating players who don't find playing against something to be fun. Of course I know this won't make ZSS mains feel better about using her. But to be fair, there were a lot of people who liked ZSS until they got to the whole grab part. Does their opinion not matter? Investing time into the character doesn't somehow entitle you to them. Investing time into the game as a whole entitles you to winning, that much is true; so if you are frustrated because you are no longer winning or performing as well with ZSS 3.5, it is because you were relying on mechanics not present or common in the rest of the game as a whole as opposed to good smash fundamentals. I'm not saying that's why everyone here is frustrated, so for anyone else, here's where real compromise can come into play. When it came down to "So we can either please the portion of current ZSS mains who like her exclusively because of her blaster cancel and throw game; OR we can please the fundamental heavy players (aka the good ones) who might be interested in other unique qualities ZSS has by standardizing her projectile and grab game, please ZSS players who liked everything BUT the grab and would give up the blaster cancel for a standard grab, and simultaneously avoid potential balance issues (either matchup specific or overall)", I think the PMDT chose wisely.

Also of note, the existence of other characters with jank do not constitute and argument for ZSS also having jank- they only constitute and argument against themselves. It's a logical fallacy that can be "proven" via reductio ad absurdum: A society where theft is legal should not also allow murder simply BECAUSE theft is legal. A game where Melee fox exists should not also allow 3.02 MewTwo to exist simply because Fox. A game with many shares of jank shouldn't allow ZSS to flood the game with more jank just because other characters have jank. Keep in mind I'm not using the work jank here as necessarily a bad thing- I'm using it more as a way to describe outliers on a scale of the game's mechanics.

Anyway, I'm not saying anything to the extent of her current version being valid or acceptable. If you feel her throws as they exist with her current grab ability are underwhelming, that is another argument entirely. Maybe her throws are awful, maybe they are underexplored, maybe they are underexplored but still awful in the long run. But standardizing the way she operates is a very smart move because it allows PMDT to adjust things like the quality of her throws based on the context of knowledge they have of how smash generally works, which is a knowledge base that now properly applies to ZSS. So if you feel the character is underwhelming, well now PMDT has room to give her more wholesome adjustments to her toolkit that she might be determined to need. Maybe they haven't fixed other jank on characters listed earlier, but in adjusting ZSS alone they've reduced the amount of jank contained in 41 of the game's matchups.

 

[Foo]

I don't blame you for not reading the thread (it's super long), but it's painfully obvious you haven't read it. Either that, or you ignored just about every point that was made here.

With the slight exception of shokio, nobody is upset with nerfs or having a harder time winning. In fact, I went to a tournament the day after 3.5 dropped and took first with her. That was the first and only time I've ever won a tournament thus far. I dropped the character because she's boring and generic and doesn't have anything cool about her anymore. Many have stated that they'd rather play a 3.02esque ZSS that is low tier than a 3.5 ZSS that is high tier. This isn't about viability, and suggesting we are complaining because we were relying on gimmicks and can no longer win is offensive.

The idea of "fundamentals," is condescending and absurd. You could just as easily call shine, knee, missiles, or anything a "gimmick" and rationalize removing them because it would reward "good fundamentals." ZSS just had a slightly different set of fundamentals than traditional characters. You couldn't just spam blaster and succeed, you needed to be good to make it work. In fact, spamming it was a very BAD idea. I WISH ZSS got the mewtwo treatment, because he still gets to act out of teleport. He is essentially a toned down version of the same character. they didn't just rip out and replace stuff willy nilly. ZSS on the other hand, is a different character. She's not bad. In fact, she's probably in the same general tier area as last patch, if not higher. However, balance is not the end all be all. A game has to be FUN. You want to include as much fun as possible while maintaining balance. We are making the point that ZSS could easily remain balanced without removing core mechanics. No one was complaining about her, why not just trim her down a bit like all the other upper mid characters?

Also, for your second argument, there was absolutely no fallacy. We aren't saying "let's make this illegal thing legal because that other thing that should be illegal is legal" in the SLIGHTEST. There are two things being said, one of them is a question.

1. PMDT stated they removed dash cancel paralyzer because it was polarizing and jank, but why was she targeted when there were so many other jank and polarizing things left in place? Why only her?
2. Jank isn't a BAD thing. Look almost every character that is considered really fun to play. They are all extremely jank, namely falcon. If you removed all jank from this game, it would be an extremely dull by-the-numbers fighter. While it's important to keep things from getting TOO jank, ZSS dash cancel blaster is WELL below that threshhold.

The main reason people were talking about melee characters so much wasn't to make a point for ZSS, but to express their frustration with the PMDTs clear melee character bias (towards fox in particular).

We are MORE than willing to compromise. We want to play 3.02 ZSS, but we aren't being unreasonable about it. We want dash cancel paralyzer back, but you know what? Being trancendent was kinda dumb and we probably don't need to dash cancel it the frame it comes out. We also don't need to be able to jump out of divekick and etc. However, we want tether grab back because a standard grab does NOT fit her character (the only stated reason for the change). Making Falco fly, pokemon weak to types of attacks, and fire emblem character's swords break would all "better fit their character." If you look at it from a certain angle. However, it is a very poor design decision. Giving her standard grab forced them to break her identity.


Bottom line is, ZSS players who played her in 3.02 found her to be a very fun and unique character that rewarded good tech skill, good reads, good fundamentals. and good overall game knowledge, just like just about every other character. However, she did so in a unique manner, just like just about every character SHOULD. Being unique is a GOOD thing. Otherwise we may as well pick the most "fundamental" character and ban all the others. If ZSS blaster really was so broken it had to be removed, then I want to see proof. Show me games where players of equal skill in several matchups where a ZSS player abused blaster to win. THEN convince me that toning it down wouldn't fix that problem. Besides, the only reason blaster cancel was removed was because they gave her a standard grab (PMDT even said so). At the core, THAT is the root of all the bad ZSS changes.

 

[Legit]

Game design is compromise. Often compromise between developers themselves. If there is one head developer, it's going to be compromise between them and the players. There aren't blacks and whites for game design- you have to have a goal for the design and determine how to meet it. Among those goals for PM are character balance. Homogeny helps a lot bringing characters into line in terms of potential character balance. Variety is the opposite of that, and while it broadens the audience of people who can enjoy a part of a game, also risks posing balance issues and alienating players who don't find playing against something to be fun. Of course I know this won't make ZSS mains feel better about using her. But to be fair, there were a lot of people who liked ZSS until they got to the whole grab part. Does their opinion not matter? Investing time into the character doesn't somehow entitle you to them. Investing time into the game as a whole entitles you to winning, that much is true; so if you are frustrated because you are no longer winning or performing as well with ZSS 3.5, it is because you were relying on mechanics not present or common in the rest of the game as a whole as opposed to good smash fundamentals. I'm not saying that's why everyone here is frustrated, so for anyone else, here's where real compromise can come into play. When it came down to "So we can either please the portion of current ZSS mains who like her exclusively because of her blaster cancel and throw game; OR we can please the fundamental heavy players (aka the good ones) who might be interested in other unique qualities ZSS has by standardizing her projectile and grab game, please ZSS players who liked everything BUT the grab and would give up the blaster cancel for a standard grab, and simultaneously avoid potential balance issues (either matchup specific or overall)", I think the PMDT chose wisely.

Whether a roster is more homogeneous or variable doesn't affect overall character balance so much that homogeny should be favored over variety. Balance issues would exist whether they left 3.02 ZSS as she was or changed her as they did in 3.5. Proclaiming "3.5 ZSS has a more balanced matchup spread than 3.02 ZSS" as truth it completely nonsensical, as there has not been enough play testing to confirm so. A character becoming normalized doesn't necessarily make the overall game more balanced as a whole. For instance, Falco, Fox, Falcon (for example) are even more of a pain in the ass than they were before due to the loss of our "jank", while they still keep theirs.

Also of note, the existence of other characters with jank do not constitute and argument for ZSS also having jank- they only constitute and argument against themselves. It's a logical fallacy that can be "proven" via reductio ad absurdum: A society where theft is legal should not also allow murder simply BECAUSE theft is legal. A game where Melee fox exists should not also allow 3.02 MewTwo to exist simply because Fox. A game with many shares of jank shouldn't allow ZSS to flood the game with more jank just because other characters have jank. Keep in mind I'm not using the work jank here as necessarily a bad thing- I'm using it more as a way to describe outliers on a scale of the game's mechanics.

How can you say that "homogeny helps a lot bringing characters into line in terms of potential character balance", then say "the existence of other characters with jank do not constitute and argument for ZSS also having jank"? ZSS not having jank while the rest of the roster has jank is the complete opposite of character balance. How is ZSS supposed to beat jank without any of her own? The murder/theft analogy also makes no sense, because ZSS's 3.02 perks are far less OP than Fox's shine, whereas murder is clearly a much more serious crime than theft.

It is entirely possible to create a relatively balanced game with variety in the game's roster. A game cannot be perfectly balanced. Even if homogenization did result in a slightly more balanced game, it would be much less exciting, and a small reduction in balance is well worth having a unique and interesting roster.

 

[Legit]

Oops double post again :\ Why can't I just remove this lol

 

[Choice Scarf]

Just wanted to comment about earlier posts that people dropping Pika just because of QAC nerfs are posers. If anything only Pika's flashiness was nerfed since QAC is still there, there's just an even greater technical barrier. You can still do crazy stuff with just one zip so it's not like he's useless as the rest of his moveset is unchanged (and more than ready for Project Recovery Nerf). It's something we can adapt to.

My condolences for such a drastic change to ZSS. Out of all the character threads it seems like you guys and the Olimars were hit the hardest. It must be frustrating when your character's playstyle is fundamentally changed.

 

[SpiderMad]

The main reason people were talking about melee characters so much wasn't to make a point for ZSS, but to express their frustration with the PMDTs clear melee character bias (towards fox in particular).

For instance, Falco, Fox, Falcon (for example) are even more of a pain in the *** than they were before due to the loss of our "jank", while they still keep theirs.

Nerfing Fox to where they're now justified to make now all the characters boring isn't any better lol

I don't know why they would want to remove Wolf (and Diddy's?) AD cancel, the fact they call it a jank cancel already is dissapointing

Also this doesn't relate too much to this but I like linking Mango https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3Pzb3Luk4#t=2525 , also wish I knew where to link the one where he calls PAL making Fox a wiener lol

 

[Legit]

Nerfing Fox to where they're now justified to make now all the characters boring isn't any better lol

I don't know why they would want to remove Wolf (and Diddy's?) AD cancel, the fact they call it a jank cancel already is dissapointing

Also this doesn't relate too much to this but I like linking Mango https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3Pzb3Luk4#t=2525

We don't want Fox nerfed. We want our character back. We're simply calling out the PMDT in that they believe dash cancel is polarizing enough for removal, but shine, among other clearly more polarizing moves, isn't.

Man I wish people would read the thread lol. Though I guess 7 pages is way too long so its understandable.

 

[Shokio]

@ DrinkingFood Your comment was confusing.

Homogeny helps a lot bringing characters into line in terms of potential character balance.

Wouldn't each character having their own unique and individual "jank" mean there's homogeny?

Also of note, the existence of other characters with jank do not constitute and argument for ZSS also having jank

It actually does. As I said, it would mean true homogeny, but also, why do you think Mewtwo, Diddy, Pit, and Lucas were the best characters in the game? It's because they had more jank than everyone else. Bull**** jank.


Also, before we go any further, let me just make it clear that the dash-cancel was NOT jank in the first place. The laser ITSELF was jank due to it's trans property (which we all agree was silly and don't want it back), but the MECHANIC of dash-cancelling was not. The problem we have with the alterations to the neutral B is that the mechanic go removed altogether instead of the Dev Team simply nerfing the laser itself (which there's like, 10 possible things they could've done to it). With others characters, the Dev Team compromised - they kept mechanics in, they just toned balanced them out (Mewtwo's teleport, Diddy's bananas, Lucas's charge, etc). That's our gripe with the lasers. The Dev Team did not compromise for the Dash Cancel like they did for everyone else's unique mechanics.

so if you are frustrated because you are no longer winning or performing as well with ZSS 3.5, it is because you were relying on mechanics not present or common in the rest of the game as a whole as opposed to good smash fundamentals.

OR it could be possible that a character has indeed been made worse.....I don't know why some people act like that's not a possibility. But that's not my main point for this part: I know you said you weren't claiming that's why we're upset, but I would just like to point out that ZSS was one of the most skill-oriented characters in 3.02. I may be speaking out of bias but I feel that ZSS players are arguably one of the best groups around. Unlike a lot of chars in 3.02, ZSS's stuff wasn't free. You've played me before, and obviously I also main Roy, who is a 100% fundamentals character, so someone preferring 3.0 ZSS does not mean that they are fundamentally weaker players than those who prefer 3.5

@ SpiderMad It's not about wanting Fox nerfed, it's about pointing out a lot of the reasoning the DT has given has obviously not applied to other characters.

Just wanted to comment about earlier posts that people dropping Pika just because of QAC nerfs are posers. If anything only Pika's flashiness was nerfed since QAC is still there, there's just an even greater technical barrier. You can still do crazy stuff with just one zip so it's not like he's useless as the rest of his moveset is unchanged (and more than ready for Project Recovery Nerf). It's something we can adapt to.

My condolences for such a drastic change to ZSS. Out of all the character threads it seems like you guys and the Olimars were hit the hardest. It must be frustrating when your character's playstyle is fundamentally changed.

Actually empathy from someone who doesn't use the character. Thank you good sir. Most people don't care or flat-out call our complaints unjustified simply because they don't use the character so they couldn't care less. But the minute a critical part of a character's design gets snatched out, trust they'd be up in arms instantly. "But it's not my character so you're all exaggerating git gud scrubs".

 

[InfinityCollision]

When it came down to "So we can either please the portion of current ZSS mains who like her exclusively because of her blaster cancel and throw game; OR we can please the fundamental heavy players (aka the good ones) who might be interested in other unique qualities ZSS has by standardizing her projectile and grab game, please ZSS players who liked everything BUT the grab and would give up the blaster cancel for a standard grab, and simultaneously avoid potential balance issues (either matchup specific or overall)", I think the PMDT chose wisely.

This is incredibly misleading. One, as pointed out many, many times in this thread and the petition thread, we want a very specific set of traits restored and are entirely open to altering the rest to better suit the current environment. Paralyzer doesn't need to be transcendent, it doesn't need to cover the entire stage, etc. These elements are not important for the particular playstyle ZSS fosters. Surgical revisions would have done the trick, but they used an axe instead out of a desire to shoehorn in a new grab. Two, the way you phrase that option is heavily skewed. DCP/tether contribute to her particular style, your statement that it pleases a "better" playerbase is baseless and falsely implies that ZSS does not rely on good fundamentals, and the changes to the contested elements don't actually improve her balance in a meaningful manner.

But standardizing the way she operates is a very smart move because it allows PMDT to adjust things like the quality of her throws based on the context of knowledge they have of how smash generally works, which is a knowledge base that now properly applies to ZSS.

Except that in doing so they fundamentally missed the mark on how ZSS operates, so it was actually a very dumb move even disregarding the significance of character identity. The new grab genuinely doesn't suit her regardless of her throws, and giving her that unsuitable "buff" (which, as I explained in detail elsewhere, does not actually achieve anything they set out to do regardless of the properties of her throws and only reduces the complexity of her gameplay) led to a series of complications that never would have arisen had the PMDT gone about things in a more precise and thoughtful manner.

 

[SpiderMad]

We don't want Fox nerfed. We want our character back. We're simply calling out the PMDT in that they believe dash cancel is polarizing enough for removal, but shine, among other clearly more polarizing moves, isn't.

Man I wish people would read the thread lol. Though I guess 7 pages is way too long so its understandable.

I've read a good bit. You guys are asking for a downward spiral in part of your argument. Their special treatment of other characters, not removing their jank when they do yours, is something they are already wanting to do.

And I thought this specifically was due to wanting to give her a normal grab (for whatever reason), with it having to be not too good in tandem with lasers as to nerf the lasers (seeing as the benefit of the grab change would make things more "complex" than the laser would). But after Yeroc's Wolf statement it's about more than that as it seems.

Here's my past posts
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1132#post-17968874
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1131#post-17968705

 

[Foo]

I've read a good bit. You guys are asking for a downward spiral in part of your argument. Their special treatment of other characters, not removing their jank when they do yours, is something they are already wanting to do.

And I thought this specifically was due to wanting to give her a normal grab (for whatever reason), with it having to be not too good in tandem with lasers as to nerf the lasers (seeing as the benefit of the grab change would make things more "complex" than the laser would). But after Yeroc's Wolf statement it's about more than that as it seems.

Here's my past posts
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1132#post-17968874
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-5.339825/page-1131#post-17968705

Define downward spiral. If you mean nerfing all the "jank" (I am starting to despise this word, because it's almost meaningless at this point), then no, we don't want that. Many people are simply frustrated that it happened to THEIR character but no one else's. Imagine you went to the hospital for a minor thing, and later learned you received HIV in a freak accident because several medical professionals all made a huge mistake.* Naturally, you'd be frustrated because out of all the people in the whole world, it happened to you. Does this mean you want everyone else to get HIV? Of course not.

We don't want other characters to be fundamentally changed and become boring to their players, we just want our character to be changed back to 3.02 playstyle. If you noticed, when Yeroc posted about wolf laser potentially being given the same treatment, everyone here was against it.

I may be completely misunderstanding what you're saying, but idk.




*I am in no way comparing the ZSS changes to HIV or the PMDT to incompetent doctors. That was just the only metaphor I could come up with

 

[Legit]

*I am in no way comparing the ZSS changes to HIV or the PMDT to incompetent doctors. That was just the only metaphor I could come up with

ROFL

 

[Foo]

It's like 3am and I can't sleep, cut me some slack lol.

 

[SpiderMad]

No we're all on the same page, but you guys are still making counter-acting statements that should be rephrased if anything.

With others characters, the Dev Team compromised - they kept mechanics in, they just toned balanced them out (Mewtwo's teleport, Diddy's bananas, Lucas's charge, etc). That's our gripe with the lasers. The Dev Team did not compromise for the Dash Cancel like they did for everyone else's unique mechanics.

@ SpiderMad It's not about wanting Fox nerfed, it's about pointing out a lot of the reasoning the DT has given has obviously not applied to other characters.

It's GOING to apply to them. You're pointing out their reasoning, and they will say "yes, you're right we were giving special treatment as to not adhere to removing their jank". That's what Yeroc's whole post was about, if it makes you feel any better we weren't targetting just ZSS we have similar jank removal coming to other characters later on: and you're feeding right into that statement.

For instance, Falco, Fox, Falcon (for example) are even more of a pain in the *** than they were before due to the loss of our "jank", while they still keep theirs.

How can you say that "homogeny helps a lot bringing characters into line in terms of potential character balance", then say "the existence of other characters with jank do not constitute and argument for ZSS also having jank"? ZSS not having jank while the rest of the roster has jank is the complete opposite of character balance. How is ZSS supposed to beat jank without any of her own? The murder/theft analogy also makes no sense, because ZS

Foo clarified it right with ZSS could still be good, even better, but we don't want boring. And again, nerfing Falco, Fox, and Falcon should not be phrased that we want that at all. Because it could all very well happen, and now you're left with more boring characters.

 

[Legit]

I honestly don't think they'll ever remove Melee jank. There is a clear bias toward Melee characters so I worded my statements with that idea in mind. But you do make a good point and I'll try to word my comments differently going forward.

 

[Tagxy]

Lol. That's a pretty dang big nerf to Pika, but leaving the character over it? Not only did QAC not get removed, but that was literally the only change. Does Pikachu have god awful throws due to the QAC change? Did he get a tether grab for no reason? Naw. He still fundamentally plays like the same character.

"Fundamentally plays like the same character"? You're going to trivialize our complaints when ZSS is at least still relevant even after her changes? And yes it would be better removed then exist in its current state (or not changing it and just letting us have something worth enjoying). The design of first burst QAC is not only poor, but is presented to us as if it were a gift when in reality its a well dressed shallowness. You complain about all the changes ZSS had over pika, yet even with ZSS's big changes she's still a more viable character then pika so dont start with this. QAC at least made pikachu fun to play and now even that is gone. ZSS mains cant care that much about the changes if theyre still playing the character, meanwhile virtually every pikachu player has dropped him including two of the three best and even the third severally disagrees with how its been changed, and those three players are among the best to ever touch smash.

 

[Legit]

"Fundamentally plays like the same character"? You're going to trivialize our complaints when ZSS is at least still relevant even after her changes? And yes it would be better removed then exist in its current monsterous state (or how about not changing it and just letting us have something worth enjoying?). The design of first burst QAC is not only ugly, but is presented to us as if it were a gift when in reality its a POS wrapped in a bow. Toss that BS out the window. You complain about all the changes ZSS had over pika, yet even with ZSS's big changes she's still a more viable character then pika so dont start with this. QAC at least made pikachu fun to play and now even that is gone. ZSS mains cant care that much about the changes if theyre still playing the character, meanwhile virtually every pikachu player has dropped him including two of the three best and even the third severally disagrees with how its been changed, and those three players are among the best to ever touch smash.

Yay, someone else who didn't read the thread.

Sorry to sound like an a-hole, but yes, I will trivialize your complaints because pikachu does in fact fundamentally play like the same character. I don't care if 3.5 ZSS is the best character in the game. I don't care if 3.5 Pikachu is worthless low tier garbage. The fact of the matter is, 3.5 Pikachu still more or less plays like 3.02 Pikachu, with a big nerf, whereas 3.5 ZSS does not play like 3.02 ZSS. Time and time again in this thread others and I have stated we don't care if 3.5 ZSS is better, we just want our character back. I can definitely understand how frustrating it is to have an awesome mechanic from your character torn to shreds.... but the thing is, you still have your shreds. I would LOVE some dash cancel shreds right about now, with a side of throw shreds. To prefer QAC be completely removed is a bit dramatic.

Sorry about the nerf. I can definitely understand where you're coming from.... but aside from the side b, the QAC nerf was literally the only thing in pikachu's changelog.

 

[Tagxy]

Yay, someone else who didn't read the thread.

Sorry to sound like an a-hole, but yes, I will trivialize your complaints because pikachu does in fact fundamentally play like the same character. I don't care if 3.5 ZSS is the best character in the game. I don't care if 3.5 Pikachu is worthless low tier garbage. The fact of the matter is, 3.5 Pikachu still more or less plays like 3.02 Pikachu, with a big nerf, whereas 3.5 ZSS does not play like 3.02 ZSS. Time and time again in this thread others and I have stated we don't care if 3.5 ZSS is better, we just want our character back. I can definitely understand how frustrating it is to have an awesome mechanic from your character torn to shreds.... but the thing is, you still have your shreds. I would LOVE some dash cancel shreds right about now, with a side of throw shreds. To wish QAC be completely removed is a bit dramatic.

Sorry about the nerf. I can definitely understand where you're coming from.... but aside from the side b, the QAC nerf was literally the only thing in pikachu's changelog.

You say this from the high horse of having a character with a much more solid fundamental playstyle for PM in the first place. Pikachu had less going for him which made QAC that much more significant to him.

Additionally QAC wasnt a gimmicky AT it was a full-blown movement option, removing a characters ability to double jump is a single change yet would change how the character is played fundamentally. Single burst QAC isnt a shred, its like telling you you have dash cancel shreds because you can still dash or throw shreds because you can still throw.

You can also ask any pikachu player and theyll say (among other things) the most important thing pika lost was his unique spark.

 

[Legit]

You say this from the high horse of having a character with a much more solid fundamental playstyle for PM in the first place. Pikachu had less going for him which made QAC that much more significant to him.

Additionally QAC wasnt a gimmicky AT it was a full-blown movement option, removing a characters ability to double jump is a single change yet would change how the character is played fundamentally. Single burst QAC isnt a shred, its like telling you you have dash cancel shreds because you can still dash or throw shreds because you can still throw.

You can also ask any pikachu player and theyll say (among other things) the most important thing pika lost was his unique spark.

It is a shred. We do still have throw shreds. But dash cancel was blown into oblivion, 0 remnants. We can't dash cancel at all. There is a fine line between a nerf and a fundamental change to a character. I don't think the QAC nerf crossed that line. If it did, it took a small step, as opposed to the leap that dash cancel removal took.

And what do you mean ZSS had a more solid fundamental playstyle? Pikachu's moveset has been nearly static (no pun intended) through each iteration of Smash starting in 1998 on N64, and PM is no exception. I'd say his playstyle is pretty well defined. ZSS has been around since Brawl, in 2008. So please, what do you mean by a more solid fundamental playstyle?

Also Pikachu did not have less going for him. We were nearly equal tier list-wise and our characters have equal representation in high/top-level play.

 

[Tagxy]

It is a shred. We do still have throw shreds. But dash cancel was blown into oblivion, 0 remnants. We can't dash cancel at all. There is a fine line between a nerf and a fundamental change to a character. I don't think the QAC nerf crossed that line. If it did, it took a small step, as opposed to the leap that dash cancel removal took.

And what do you mean ZSS had a more solid fundamental playstyle? Pikachu's moveset has been nearly static (no pun intended) through each iteration of Smash starting in 1998 on N64, and PM is no exception. I'd say his playstyle is pretty well defined. ZSS has been around since Brawl, in 2008. So please, what do you mean by a more solid fundamental playstyle?

Also Pikachu did not have less going for him. We were nearly equal tier list-wise and our characters have equal representation in high/top-level play.

I specifically meant PM. One aspect of Pikachus fundamental playstyle in each game includes an outstanding offstage game. I mean top tier class good. In PM recoveries are too good and offstage tools too limited for pikachu to really take advantage of this. 3.5 recoveries are still too good, with the tools pikachu has recovories can't be at all better then melee (which sat on the border) or theyre too good. Meanwhile other characters simply have better edgeguarding tools and recoveries and he falls well below that top tier class. Its something really fun pikachu is supposed to have but its super neutered. I still had fun with pika in PM but QAC was a big part of that.

Single burst QAC is just not the same thing at all as two burst. It has virtually zero ability for mix-ups, which was the keystone aspect of QAC as it existed. Yet on our P:M character page it has its own section and highlighted as if this is something significant for pika. In part its ugly from a design perspective, but it also puts a mask on the issues he has by giving him something janky he doesnt need (of course my preference is for its full return).

Also I understand ZSS has real complaints but Im not sure why youd think theyre more prominent then what pikas or other characters have especially when theyre at essence the same.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Let's try not to argue over which characters lost what or to what degree, it doesn't really benefit any of us. Poorly implemented changes are a bad thing regardless of who they apply to or how much they impact a given character. If Pika's changes aren't well designed then they're entitled to complain too.

 

[Tagxy]

Yeah sorry for spilling salt over the QAC post in a topic on ZSS. FTR I think its easy to understand why people think pika might play the same or that its not as big a deal to cut QAC since hes the same character as melee, but w/o going into it here (touched on it earlier) ill just say my perception is its just different in PM.

Late edit, but regarding mechanics from this thread and where things might be headed last thing Ill say is QAC had 6 years of pretesting and was pretty much fully developed and understood by its top players when it was implemented into PM. I will say that if QAC isnt safe, then its not hard to understand changes that occured including many of the ones seen here, or what might not be safe in the future.

 

[Legit]

Let's try not to argue over which characters lost what or to what degree, it doesn't really benefit any of us. Poorly implemented changes are a bad thing regardless of who they apply to or how much they impact a given character. If Pika's changes aren't well designed then they're entitled to complain too.

Of course he is also entitled to complain too, I just got a bit angry at the fact that he thought we shouldn't have the right to complain about our character just because she's still good. I agree the argument will get us nowhere.

PMDT you're turning your playerbase against each other! lol

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Where's the 3.5 videos

 

[Player-3]

On youtube

 

[Haku125]

With the removal of dash canceled paralyzer in 3.5, what are some good ways for ZSS to approach spacies? Specifically Falco, I was playing my friend and I'm not sure how to get around Falco's lasers now that it takes so long for ZSS to shoot a laser and approach afterwards. All I can think of is sort of jumping above them and maybe coming down with divekick but that's easy to punish if missed, any tips anyone?

 

[Legit]

With the removal of dash canceled paralyzer in 3.5, what are some good ways for ZSS to approach spacies? Specifically Falco, I was playing my friend and I'm not sure how to get around Falco's lasers now that it takes so long for ZSS to shoot a laser and approach afterwards. All I can think of is sort of jumping above them and maybe coming down with divekick but that's easy to punish if missed, any tips anyone?

I'd like to know this, too. This matchup is even more difficult since the change imo. Crawling under lasers / powershielding is probably the best way to get past lasers. Only other way would be to approach from the air and space bairs (can't space nair safely anymore). If you're really good at power shielding you can force him to approach you on occasion and bait him into the air (thats where falco likes to approach), then you can try to nail him with an upb or uair (careful for the dair though). It's really just a terrible matchup for ZSS all around, made worse with the loss of a lot of our mobility. Sure we have a normal grab, but in my experience my opponent is still able to get off dair->shine before I can even grab, so having the new grab doesn't even help our OoS game much in this MU.

 

[Haku125]

I'd like to know this, too. This matchup is even more difficult since the change imo. Crawling under lasers / powershielding is probably the best way to get past lasers. Only other way would be to approach from the air and space bairs (can't space nair safely anymore). If you're really good at power shielding you can force him to approach you on occasion and bait him into the air (thats where falco likes to approach), then you can try to nail him with an upb or uair (careful for the dair though). It's really just a terrible matchup for ZSS all around, made worse with the loss of a lot of our mobility. Sure we have a normal grab, but in my experience my opponent is still able to get off dair->shine before I can even grab, so having the new grab doesn't even help our OoS game much in this MU.

Crawling under laser might work, I'll make sure to try it, but I can already foresee the opponent just getting lower with their lasers, and if it's Falco that'll basically just stop your crawl, but in both cases its dangerous to let a spacie get free damage on you because of how easily ZSS will die to their respective smash attacks. I hate to say it but I think jumping towards the opponent is the only viable approach, unless like you said your powershielding is on point, which I know mine is not.

Also, you mentioned you can't space nair safely anymore, it's range was reduced and it was given a flatter angle correct? I've seen Oro?! use it a lot in 3.02 and it looks like it used to go much higher behind ZSS than it does now.