3.5 Ruleset

[Chill1208]

Smashboards Project M Ruleset
General Rules

• Game Settings: 4 Stocks, 8 Minute Time Limit, Best of 3 Games. Finals are Best of 5.
• Items are disabled.
• Input buffer is disabled
• All chain grabs and infinites are legal
• If a player causes Sudden Death to occur through the use of a suicide move like Ganon's SideB, the player who initiated the move wins. If the game moves to the Results Screen instead of Sudden Death, whichever player the game says is the winner wins
  
• Pause option is disabled in the game menu. If left on, accidental pausing mid match forfeits a stock.
• You may not choose the last stage you have won on during a set, unless agreed by both players.
• If time runs outs, the tie is determined by most stocks, and then if still tied, by percentage. If percentage is tied, a 1 stock, 3 minute match is played.
• Playing as Giga Bowser is banned

Doubles Rules

• Team Attack enabled
• Sharing stocks is allowed
  
  
  Stage List (From TK Breezy's tournament pack which has become standard in CT if you use this stage list the winner gets 2 bans instead of 3 and first round bans are 1-2-1)
  
  Neutrals
  
  Green Hill Zone
  Pokémon Stadium 2
  Smashville
  Battlefield
  Dreamland 64
  
  Counterpicks
  Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
  Warioware Inc.
  Final Destination
  Norfair (New and Improved!)
  Yoshi's Story
• Original Stage List
  Stage lists for Project M tournaments can vary wildly from event to event.
  Tournaments can opt to use the one listed below but I highly recommend moving onto TK Breezy's Stage List or your own. Please read the event info to be sure! If you use this stage list the winner gets 3 bans instead of 2
  
  Neutral Stages
  • Final Destination
  • Battlefield
  • Smashville
  • Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Dreamland (64)
  • Fountain of Dreams
  • Yoshi’s Story (Melee) [Singles Only]
  • Distant Planet [Doubles Only]
  
  Counter-Pick Stages
  • Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)
  • Pokemon Stadium 1
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Wario Ware
  • Green Hill Zone
  • Skyloft
  • Skyworld
  • Match Procedure
  • Players select their characters. Either player may choose to Blind Pick. In this case, each player secretly tells a third player their character before picking with the third player verifying their selections.
  • Players play Rock-Paper-Scissors. Winner chooses between selecting controller port or second Stage Strike
  • Players take turns removing stages from the Neutral Stages list above based upon the results of the previous rule. The first player to strike removes one(1) stage from the list, the second player removes two(2), the first player removes one(1) and the second player then chooses from the remaining two(2) stages.
  • The players play the first match of the set
  • Winning player of the preceding match bans two stages from the full list of stages, both Neutral and Counter-Pick. Does not apply to Best of 5 sets.
  • The Losing player of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match. Cannot choose the stage banned in the previous step, nor a stage they've already won on during this set, unless agreed.
  • The winning player of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
  • The losing player of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
  • The losing player of the preceding match may change their controller port.
  • The next match is played
  • Repeat Steps 5 through 10 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.

 

[Strong Badam]

what's wrong with skyworld and lylat?

 

[Chill1208]

According to a bunch of stats TK Breezy did he found these to be the best stages, pretty much nobody ever chooses lylat or skyworld anyways atleast nobody I play, I think it's the weird ledges on lylat and the odd platform placements on skyworld as well as the difficult ledges kept them off the list

 

[ChiePet]

How do you Stage-Strike 5 Stages when there is only 5 stages in the Neutral choices? :/
Unless I'm mistaken somehow, I'm very confused..

 

[MLGF]

Yes, I'll be running this exact ruleset for every tournament.
Thanks for helping all of CT TO's make up their mind

 

[John12346]

Okay, I hate it when rulesets don't word this one properly...

"If a player wins with a suicide move like gannons side b the player who initiated the move wins"

should be rephrased to this effect:

"If a player causes Sudden Death to occur through the use of a suicide move like Ganon's SideB, the player who initiated the move wins. If the game moves to the Results Screen instead of Sudden Death, whichever player the game says is the winner wins."

I know everyone knows what the rule MEANS, regardless of how it's worded, but you can avoid loophole exploitation as long as the rule is explicitly worded.

 

[trash?]

there's really no good justification for suicide clauses in PM rulesets

if the trade was intended to be one person's favor, it would clearly be balanced and designed as such

 

[shairn]

...No chaingrabs?
RIP Marth

there's really no good justification for suicide clauses in PM rulesets

if the trade was intended to be one person's favor, it would clearly be balanced and designed as such

It was supposed to work that way in 3.02 but sideB-ing to death with Ganon if you had the lower port priority would still go to Sudden Death. In any case, it's good to have as a rule to fall back on just in case.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

This stagelist gives a major disadvantage to floaty characters.

Including Skyworld in the stagelist would probably fix this problem, but as of know this stagelist is not at all balanced.

 

[Kered13]

Players take turns removing stages from the Neutral Stages list above based upon the results of the previous rule. The first player to strike removes one(1) stage from the list, the second player removes two(2), the first player removes two(1) and the second player then chooses from the remaining two(2) stages.

With only 5 neutral stages, there is clearly a mistake here. With 5 neutral stages the bans should go 1-2-1 (play on the one stage that remains).

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

With only 5 neutral stages, there is clearly a mistake here. With 5 neutral stages the bans should go 1-2-1 (play on the one stage that remains).

Choosing from the two remaining stages = Banning one and playing on the last remaining

Think about it a little

...No chaingrabs?
RIP Marth

L2Read shairn. All chaingrabs and infinites legal. Granted there are probably no discovered infinites but it's a nice clause to have for a secret IC god.

what's wrong with skyworld and lylat?

More like what's right with Lylat? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Skyworld is fine though but I guess they wanted 10 stages. I like Norfair better too.

 

[skellitorman]

This stagelist gives a major disadvantage to floaty characters.

Including Skyworld in the stagelist would probably fix this problem, but as of know this stagelist is not at all balanced.

I personally like this stage list alot, and I play floaty characters. Why do you consider it not balanced?

 

[EddyBearr]

Metal Cavern should be legal.. ;{

 

[MagnesD3]

what's wrong with skyworld and lylat?

they are different and nobody likes change :S

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I personally like this stage list alot, and I play floaty characters. Why do you consider it not balanced?

It actually isn't a terribly unbalanced stagelist compared to others that have existed, but floaties are at a disadvantage when it comes to counterpick options when compared to most other character types.

Dreamland is great for floaties, obviously, since it's got a very high ceiling and far blastzones (as well as the stage itself being quite large) which allows floaties to survive longer than usual due to their general lightness and since they can often make it back to the stage if knocked far away. But aside from Dreamland, there really aren't any stages that give floaties a clear advantage in the majority of match-ups, so they will usually not have a strong counterpick option available to them, especially since the opponent gets several stage bans. On the other hand, a character like Fox, for example, would have several stages in which they would probably have the advantage in most match-ups.

Skyworld is a really strong stage for floaties, which is important since floaties really need it, but it's not the most popular stage so it's not included in this stagelist, throwing off the balance. Even FoD, which was a traditionally strong counterpick for floaties in Melee, is gone from this list as well. Also missing is Distant Planet, another stage that would be strong for floaties in many match-ups.

In general, this stagelist is made up of the most popular stages, which isn't necessarily good for balance and it helps certain characters while hurting others.

 

[Foo]

they are different and nobody likes change :S

*nobody likes bad change.

I don't like those maps because I think they are bad maps. PM was the first competent game I played and I like all the melee nuetrals the best (as long as we have the new battlefield lol). The only one I don't like is FoD. I fing despise that stage.

Lylat and skyworld have been around just as long as greenhill and wario for PM (since they play out much differently in PM than brawl) yet almost everyone likes those stages, and hates lylat and skyworld.

Sometimes, people don't like things because they aren't good.

 

[Frozn~]

I'm new to PM here, but I tought Yoshi's Story, FD and FoD were neutral stages? What's the difference between PM and Melee on this matter?

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I'm new to PM here, but I tought Yoshi's Story, FD and FoD were neutral stages? What's the difference between PM and Melee on this matter?

Melee has very few stages to choose from that allow for competitive play. PM has way, way more, so it can actually choose which legal stages are best as starters and which are best as counterpicks.

FD and Yoshi's Story are stages that are very polarizing because characters are often either really good or really bad on those stages, so some people think they are better as counterpicks than as starters. For FoD, I guess it's because of the moving platforms, and because there are a lot of other 3-platform stages (and because many people dislike it for stupid reasons).

 

[Frozn~]

That makes sense. I guess [Marth's] Story would be a counterpick haha

 

[MagnesD3]

*nobody likes bad change.

I don't like those maps because I think they are bad maps. PM was the first competent game I played and I like all the melee nuetrals the best (as long as we have the new battlefield lol). The only one I don't like is FoD. I fing despise that stage.

Lylat and skyworld have been around just as long as greenhill and wario for PM (since they play out much differently in PM than brawl) yet almost everyone likes those stages, and hates lylat and skyworld.

Sometimes, people don't like things because they aren't good.

Lylat and Skyworld dont have anything wrong with them, it doesnt matter if people dont like them as long as they are competitively viable counterpicks. They are perfectly fine, I think its an interesting strategy for players to learn stages people have a hard time with so the other player must adapt. I havent seen one good reason to why these maps arent included other then simply the majority dont enjoy them.

 

[Raijinken]

Pause can no longer be set to off. May want to reword that.

 

[Ripple]

you have so few stages AND players get 3 bans?

this is a bad ruleset and will turn into melee with lack of stage variety.

According to a bunch of stats TK Breezy did he found these to be the best stages, pretty much nobody ever chooses lylat or skyworld anyways atleast nobody I play, I think it's the weird ledges on lylat and the odd platform placements on skyworld as well as the difficult ledges kept them off the list

TK didn't find anything but a popularity contest of stages. you just banned the least popular stages, there is nothing wrong with those stages that makes them deserved to be banned. ESPECIALLY after skyworld was fixed. did you even look at it?

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I somehow missed that this ruleset has 3 bans. It really should NOT have 3 bans. That's way too many for this few stages. 2 would be the appropriate amount for 10 stages.

The whole point of counterpicking is for the losing player to be able to play on a stage that helps them out a bit. 3 bans on 10 stages makes it so that the counterpicker almost never gets a stage that they have an advantage on.

 

[The_NZA]

We've run this stagelist at SG for two months now and have loved it in 3.02. I'm sure its amazing in 3.5. Also, why are people arguing its bad for floaties? Netural basically ends up on PS2, SV, or BF in most situations which is great for anyone. CP allows you to ban 2 threats and you have to go to one stage you dont like but dont hate. For example, against a Marth I can ban warioware and Yoshi's story, and end up on GHZ. If I want to avoid big blastzones, I'd ban Yoshi's Island Brawl and DL64, but I might still end up on FD, Norfair, or PS2.

 

[Raijinken]

We've run this stagelist at SG for two months now and have loved it in 3.02. I'm sure its amazing in 3.5. Also, why are people arguing its bad for floaties? Netural basically ends up on PS2, SV, or BF in most situations which is great for anyone. CP allows you to ban 2 threats and you have to go to one stage you dont like but dont hate. For example, against a Marth I can ban warioware and Yoshi's story, and end up on GHZ. If I want to avoid big blastzones, I'd ban Yoshi's Island Brawl and DL64, but I might still end up on FD, Norfair, or PS2.

But there are three bans, not two. That's another one of the concerns expressed.

 

[Ripple]

floaties want bigger ceilings rather than big side-blast zones.

not only do PS2 and FD have normal sized side blastzones, but ps2 has a small ceiling.
FoD and skyworld now being gone mean there is 1, just 1, stage that floaties like. and that would be dreamland. (unless norfair has a big ceiling, not sure entirely)

 

[Strong Badam]

More like what's right with Lylat? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Is there something degenerative about the platform layout? The stage has 0 random elements whatsoever, it's a great competitive stage.

EDIT: Lylat & Skyworld being gone is bad enough, but Fountain of Dreams?! What is this stagelist?!

Not a fan of popularity contests for stages. Wish the stagelist was balanced properly based on matchups, stage archetype, etc. instead of "I don't like this stage because I keep recovering wrong and dying on it" being legitimate ban criteria.

 

[The_NZA]

Is there something degenerative about the platform layout? The stage has 0 random elements whatsoever, it's a great competitive stage.

EDIT: Lylat & Skyworld being gone is bad enough, but Fountain of Dreams?! What is this stagelist?!

Not a fan of popularity contests for stages. Wish the stagelist was balanced properly based on matchups, stage archetype, etc. instead of "I don't like this stage because I keep recovering wrong and dying on it" being legitimate ban criteria.

I know for SG our main consideration is that its too difficult to have FoD, Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, and GHZ in the map pool of 10 stages without bringing average blast zones down. You have to pick 3 at most of those 4. We personally went with Yoshi's Story, WW, and GHZ last season. This season, we might rotate out wario ware for FoD.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Is there something degenerative about the platform layout? The stage has 0 random elements whatsoever, it's a great competitive stage.

EDIT: Lylat & Skyworld being gone is bad enough, but Fountain of Dreams?! What is this stagelist?!

Not a fan of popularity contests for stages. Wish the stagelist was balanced properly based on matchups, stage archetype, etc. instead of "I don't like this stage because I keep recovering wrong and dying on it" being legitimate ban criteria.

Have you tried recovering on Lylat?

Idk it's a mixed bag. I feel prone to getting caught under the lip with Aether and sliding under Lylat with QD, when trying to sweetspot, and on the whole I feel really unsafe recovering there. On the otherhand, Uptilt on Lylat is absolutely busted. What do ...

 

[Strong Badam]

I know for SG our main consideration is that its too difficult to have FoD, Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, and GHZ in the map pool of 10 stages without bringing average blast zones down. You have to pick 3 at most of those 4. We personally went with Yoshi's Story, WW, and GHZ last season. This season, we might rotate out wario ware for FoD.

I ban Yoshi's Story. The other 3 are more unique and Randall doesn't randomly save people.

I don't agree with arbitrarily desiring 10 stages instead of 11 or 12 or 13. You're changing your stage ban criteria for something that's not related to how competitive or fair the stages are.

Have you tried recovering on Lylat?

Idk it's a mixed bag. I feel prone to getting caught under the lip with Aether and sliding under Lylat with QD, when trying to sweetspot, and on the whole I feel really unsafe recovering there. On the otherhand, Uptilt on Lylat is absolutely busted. What do ...

Ban Lylat when you play Ike? How is this different than Fox auto-banning FD against you for chaingrabs? The stage is fair, if your character cannot recover well on it because of its ledges you shouldn't let yourself go there with your character.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

So, I just had an idea.

Project M is unique in that it has a ton of viable competitive stages. It also has the problem of often having stagelists that are not balanced very well.

The problem with just including every single competitive stage is that you have to also have like 3 or more bans, which makes the counterpicking process long and difficult because you have to consider every single one of the many, many stages in the context of that particular match-up and then ban the ones that you'd rather avoid in that match-up. Large stagelists cause stage selection to be very time-consuming a lot of the time, and tournaments with large stagelists often go late. That's why smaller stagelists are preferred, even though almost all of them have balance issues.

Since PM is in such a unique situation with its stages, what if we revised and streamlined the counterpicking process for Project M? Here me out and keep an open mind:

Instead of the winner banning x number of stages, and then the loser selecting a counterpick out of the remaining stages, what if instead the loser first selects like 3 stages that he would like to play on in that match-up, and then the winner bans 2 of the 3 (or picks 1 of the 3, same thing).

In this way, the counterpicking would be much less time-consuming, since it wouldn't be a matter of trying to anticipate what the opponent will want to play on and then banning those stages, but would instead be about the opponent picking their top options right off the bat and you just decide which one is the lesser of evils. Since the process would be much simpler, potentially every single competitive stage could be included in the stagelist instead of trying to limit it to a small amount and trying to balance it by omitting many popular stages. This way, every character would have several strong stages, and it might be well balanced.

Does this make sense, or am I speaking nonsense?

 

[The_NZA]

I ban Yoshi's Story. The other 3 are more unique and Randall doesn't randomly save people.

I don't agree with arbitrarily desiring 10 stages instead of 11 or 12 or 13. You're changing your stage ban criteria for something that's not related to how competitive or fair the stages are.

Ban Lylat when you play Ike? How is this different than Fox auto-banning FD against you for chaingrabs? The stage is fair, if your character cannot recover well on it because of its ledges you shouldn't let yourself go there with your character.

10 may be arbitrary, but with 2 bans, its a really solid number. You eliminate 20% of stages, which to me is a really good balance. I could also see 9 stages being a good number but 10 gives you better variety for a bo5 or bo7. I also think 2 bans is really important, and is significantly better than 3 bans.

As for Yoshi's Story, I personally love that stage and I think its the most entertaining stage in Melee. Randall requires really good timing and awareness to take advantage of, and its always satisfying to see people use it well. I also love the thin platforms on a small stage (something that only lylat shares in common with YS). I personally love YS more than FoD and thats why I fall on that side of the argument. FoD replacing warioware is, however, a really compelling notion.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Instead of the winner banning x number of stages, and then the loser selecting a counterpick out of the remaining stages, what if instead the loser first selects like 3 stages that he would like to play on in that match-up, and then the winner bans 2 of the 3 (or picks 1 of the 3, same thing).

I've felt that would be better for a long time. Additionally, with the vast number of vastly different characters and stages, I've felt character selection should occur prior to stage selection. There're just to many options now that could totally lop-side a match, just because a player banned or picked a stage without knowing what they were getting into. Like, you always know which stages you could have to play on, but you can have no idea what characters you'll be up against, and there are certain combinations which are just unwinnable. I don't think a match should hinge so much on a single decision based on limited information.
Besides that, it makes more intuitive sense to newer players, since the CSS comes first.
The stage selection process (and rules in general) has been fine-tuned to perfection over 13 years, for use with Melee. We shouldn't let tradition dictate the future of the entire genre.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I've felt that would be better for a long time. Additionally, with the vast number of vastly different characters and stages, I've felt character selection should occur prior to stage selection. There're just to many options now that could totally lop-side a match, just because a player banned or picked a stage without knowing what they were getting into. Like, you always know which stages you could have to play on, but you can have no idea what characters you'll be up against, and there are certain combinations which are just unwinnable. I don't think a match should hinge so much on a single decision based on limited information.
Besides that, it makes more intuitive sense to newer players, since the CSS comes first.
The stage selection process (and rules in general) has been fine-tuned to perfection over 13 years, for use with Melee. We shouldn't let tradition dictate the future of the entire genre.

This makes perfect sense. I wholeheartedly agree with character selection occurring before stage selection. Stages before Characters works well in Melee, but can be exploited for unfair wins in PM.

At this point, Project M has become its own completely unique game, and it needs to have its own ruleset specifically designed for Project M 3.5.

 

[dude it's raining]

This new counterpick stuff needs to really happen

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ban Lylat when you play Ike? How is this different than Fox auto-banning FD against you for chaingrabs? The stage is fair, if your character cannot recover well on it because of its ledges you shouldn't let yourself go there with your character.

Check the Ike forums

Also fair enough, I will admit that my opinion on Lylat is biased and I was being hyperbolic.

Still do love Lylat's platforms though. Ledges why u betray me

 

[Narpas_sword]

ive always thought the loser offering 3 and the winner picking one would be a good thing to try. it's how ladders usually get played in FPS games.

 

[Blitzus]

If I were TO, I would edit that stage list to include

Lylat in neutral
Skyworld in counters
FOD in counters
Yoshis melee in neutral instead of counters.

And make it 3 bans.

 

[MLGF]

Not gonna run three bans unless we get another CP to compensate, seems that Sykloft or lylat is the popular choice around here. I'll run one at the biweeklies and tell ya how it went. Optimism ahoy!

While it's nice that you're trying to get a unified ruleset for CT BTW, it'd be better if we discussed it in groups specific to CT. There's a lot better discussion to be had there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If I were TO, I would edit that stage list to include

Lylat in neutral
Skyworld in counters
FOD in counters
Yoshis melee in neutral instead of counters.

And make it 3 bans.

Yoshi Melee is very much not neutral though.