2012 King Dedede Matchup Export #1 - Diddy Kong

[KuroganeHammer]

King Dedede Matchup Export #1 - Diddy Kong​

Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0 Says: -2​

Things we can discuss:​

1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Diddy Kong?
2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Diddy Kong?
3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Diddy Kong's recovery? How does Diddy Kong fare offstage versus Dedede?
4. Can Diddy Kong gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Diddy Kong?
5. Is Diddy Kong easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
6. Can Dedede shield pressure Diddy Kong, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Diddy Kong also shield pressure Dedede?
7. Can Dedede punish Diddy Kong's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?

Character/moveset specifics:

How should Dedede optimally deal with:
Banana's
Side B
Fair
Bair
Diddy Kong's fast and long ranged grab
Are there any other moves that Dedede should be aware of?

Stages
UNITY RULESET STAGES ONLY PLEASE
Should be obvious already, but I'm just making it clear.​

Which starter stages should Dedede strike?
Which counterpicks should Dedede take Diddy Kong?
Which counterpicks should Dedede ban versus Diddy Kong?
Where is Diddy Kong likely to take us?

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Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered, and these will apply to all MU rediscussion threads.

1) Avoid large amounts of bias please. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Dedede's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups consistant. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to King Dedede. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

3) Please be reasonable! If the majority of people say Dedede vs. Meta Knight is -3, then try not to say the matchup is 0 unless you are able to back this up with hard evidence.

Finally, it is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible!

 

[Alacion]

I like your ground rules.

 

[Zinoto]

I don't know many players that actually enjoy this match up.

To start, know that a good diddy has already committed to the fact that he can and is going to camp you...hard. That being said you won't have much of a ground game against us. Your goal should be to lift us from our camp and get us offstage. is a big character and for us a big target. You're going to get combo'd a lot. Just stay alive and keep us offstage. If you grab us, have a field day because you chain grab us all the way offstage its a free setup. Once we get offstage, bair. We are going to try and prevent this but at this point it's pretty much a guessing game.

You don't want to throw the bananas at most of the time because it's easy for us to recover them. Instead focus more on using them as traps to get grabs/punishes. We will be watching for your shield grab so if you do try and grab us oos, make sure you'll get us.

I would ban FD immediately. Some like it though because you have a lot of room to chaingrab, so if you're really comfortable there go for it. As a CP I'd pick halberd or rainbow cruise. Halberd for its short ceiling and RC because bananas are really weakened here.

Overall you want to just utilize you air game and avoid bananas however you can. Chaingrab when you can and once you can get us offstage, keep it that way.

I agree with the MU chart being that its -2.

 

[Doc King]

I also agree that this matchup is a -2 for Dedede.

The main problem for Dedede in this matchup is his lack of mobility over Diddy Kong. With his poor speed, Diddy will most likely get banana traps/combos/etc. on you a lot better than we will. I kind of find it stupid when people say Diddy Kong is not so bad because of chaingrab. Chaingrab actually doesn't mean much in this matchup (Like Ice Climbers and even Snake but we win because we have many unique options against Snake) because Bananas actually break it a lot of times (You would have a much easier time air releasing chaingrab Squirtle).

I guess the only thing you can do is throw bananas in the air so Diddy can't catch them. D3 can also edge guard Diddy pretty well and it's Dedede's only main strength in the matchup. Approaching in the air would be much safer because on the ground Diddy actually wins. I honestly think that Dedede could actually win if it weren't for his poor speed.

For stages, I wouldn't go FD. FD is just way too campy for Dedede (I think it's the worst stage for Dedede). I would go battlefield and smashville because the stage platforms will actually help us approach Diddy. I would probably go Yoshi's too because Diddy would have a hard time banana comboing due to slopes and tilting platforms and Dedede can recover better when landing on the slopes. Halberd looks pretty good and there's this thing where D3 can actually D throw to buffer up smash Diddy on the 2nd stage on the edges. Only problem is that Diddy can cover them like he can with wall infinite (Which is why I think that the PS stages are pretty bad to go on). Lylat is pretty crappy and chaingrab could probably get screwed up. Delfino is actually pretty crappy compared to others because of Diddy's walkoffs and superior camping game. Rainbow is pretty good along with Brinstar.

 

[Player-1]

BF is a much better stage for Diddy in this MU than FD, the platforms don't help you approach at all, it only hurts your approaches more since you can't aerial/air dodge through them. The stage is small so if we do get grabbed we won't take as much damage, plus D3 can still trip with bananas on the platforms while CGing. The small stages and platforms help Diddy combo D3 a lot easier and he doesn't live as long as he does on FD.

 

[dean.]

I might post something when I get home.

P1 I assume you mean "BF is much better than FD". In which case I might agree but they're both awful imo :S

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Battlefield is terrible for us in this MU. I would even go as far as to agree with P1 that its better.

Like D3 doesn't even like this stage much to begin with. Then you add on the fact that platforms just add to Diddy's stage control and its dumb. The worst part is that D3 is so tall, that if you try to CG and there's a banana on one of lower platforms, you'll slip anyway. It's ********. Oh I see P1 said all this. Groovy.

With that being said, I have experience in this MU but its absurd. Any Diddy who knows this MU, knows that they just need to camp you. We have to approach. And its dumb because Diddy with two bananas and Popgun covers the area around him very well. Approaching from the ground is really hard and not something we should try often. Which means we have to go from the air...which sucks because our options are limited and our aerial mobility is trash. We're stronger on the ground and Diddy mitigates that.

And don't try to use Bananas....our throw is so bad. We're better off just throwing them up or keeping them behind us. Throwing them at the Diddy just gives them their main tool back. Throwing them off the stage just allows Diddy to pluck another one.

I feel like the only saving grace of this MU is off stage. Bair does a lot for us and if we guess correctly on what Diddy is gonna do, it could mean the stock. The issue is getting him there. Yeah we can CG but....honestly a full CG doesn't happen often in this MU when there's a good Diddy playing.

I'll go more in depth later. I feel like it's definitely a bad MU. Right under MK, ICs, and Olimar. -2 for us.

 

[Zinoto]

I might post something when I get home.

P1 I assume you mean "BF is much better than FD". In which case I might agree but they're both awful imo :S

No, he means that FD is better than BF for . BF is very small which makes getting combo'd easier and the platforms hinder your aerial approaches. Moreover, you can trip if you try to chaingrab with a banana already being on a platform.

I agree with P1 and Tech, the best thing you can do in this MU is throw the bananas up or use them as a bait for a bair from above. Throwing them back just gives us what we need to win right back to is. As a starter I'd aim for YI or FD. Most Diddy's are pretty adept to playing on SV and BF wouldn't be that good of a choice.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

If MK is -3, and ICs/Olimar are -2, then I feel like diddy is -1. Then again, I haven't played against gnes, felix, or adhd. But Player-1 and BigLou are really good. Walking towards diddy while being in front of a banana in your control and behind a waddle dee limits diddy's options. Without playing that land setup though, it probably is a -2.

 

[Doc King]

That's actually a cool way to use Waddle Dee Throw. I feel like waddle dee throw is underrated and could be used for pretty good safety and defense options. You can probably use them as like minions so if you get grabbed or something, they can help out every once in a while. Kind of like Snake, Diddy, Peach, Rob, and Wario.

Kind of sad thing though is that we don't really have a good matchup except for Seige and the ridiculous RC and Brinstar.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It seems like we're all at an agreement with FD and BF being the worst starters.

What about Smashville? That's Diddy's best neutral. Is that something we should ban when Diddy is counterpicking us?

Banana's are a nightmare since they kinda limit Dedede's approaches. It's not quite so bad when we get them though.

Is there any situational gimmicky stuff we can pull off on Diddy?

 

[Player-1]

FD is Diddy's best neutral in general. Ban FD/BF CP Frigate, RC, or Castle Siege IMO.

 

[Doc King]

It seems like we're all at an agreement with FD and BF being the worst starters.

What about Smashville? That's Diddy's best neutral. Is that something we should ban when Diddy is counterpicking us?

Banana's are a nightmare since they kinda limit Dedede's approaches. It's not quite so bad when we get them though.

Is there any situational gimmicky stuff we can pull off on Diddy?

We can actually do a down throw to buffered up smash on Diddy on the 2nd Halberd stage edge (The thing where we can lock snake with a d throw) because D3 has a 20 frame advance when he down throws Diddy (Unstaled, Staled is 19).

Smashville looks hard to decide. I mean like BF, bananas can stop us from chaingrabbing when they're on the platform, but it doesn't really come out as often. It pretty easy to approach compared to the other stages. I would say it's a pretty good stage for neutrals.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

I've recently started banning FD, but I haven't been able to 2-0 Player-1 with this choice (not implying I 2-0 him regularly, or that my ban choice is definitely what has been causing me to drop a game recently. He's an excellent player). That being said, I think banning BF might be a better choice now that I feel more comfortable with banana traps. I'll try that next time and let you know.

*Player-1, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

 

[Player-1]

I'll just take you to RC

 

[Xubble]

As far as CPs, what about PS1 and PS2? The transformations can really help D3 IMO. Those that come to mind: water (the windmill can screw up Diddy's follow ups?), fire (the tree promotes camping and can be used for infinites), rock (helps to camp, but you'd have to keep control of the hill first thing), electric (belts are anti-banana, and D3 can control the middle with his tilts), ground (kinda like fire from PS1, except no slopes on the right side), flying (Diddy's sideb loses some use, D3 can camp in the air for a while), and maybe other ones I can't remember right now.

 

[bubbaking]

There's something we must all remember about these CP stages. If we can infinite Diddy, it means he can infinite us. Those bananas let him wrack up damage much faster than we do and that can make Delfino, PS1, and PS2 virtual nightmares.

Kind of sad thing though is that we don't really have a good matchup except for Seige and the ridiculous RC and Brinstar.

FD is Diddy's best neutral in general. Ban FD/BF CP Frigate, RC, or Castle Siege IMO.

Wait a sec, I can definitely see how Siege can help us, what with all the walk-offs and all, but doesn't this mean he can walk US off? This might be the one of the few times we don't want to break the statues so that they can hinder the bananas.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, here are my opinions on this MU. Forgive me if they're a bit wrong.

1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Diddy Kong?
2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Diddy Kong?
3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Diddy Kong's recovery? How does Diddy Kong fare offstage versus Dedede?
4. Can Diddy Kong gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Diddy Kong?
5. Is Diddy Kong easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
6. Can Dedede shield pressure Diddy Kong, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Diddy Kong also shield pressure Dedede?
7. Can Dedede punish Diddy Kong's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?

1. Diddy's ground game ***** ours cuz his bananas mess up our CGs and he can outcamp us while punishing any mistakes we make up close really hard. If you miss a grab, eat a banana; if you hit his shield, eat a banana. Diddy only has to throw out one banana and keep the other in his hand while camping with peanut gun. It instantly limits all our options, especially if that thrown banana ends up on a low platform close to him.

2. Our bair ***** anything he has in the air. If this game was limited to aerials only, this MU would probably be a +1 in D3's favor. Even w/ bair aside, our huge disjoints on uair and dair can really annoy Diddy as long as he doesn't have a banana in hand.

3. Bair gimps Diddy, but a well-timed fair offstage will be the end of him, period. His recovery is fairly linear so it's easy to predict and stop. There's only thing I'm a little confused about. How do I stop Diddy planking with upB. It sounds weird, but he refreshes his invincibility really fast.

4. His bananas can cause problems when we're trying to puff back to the stage, but for the most part, D3 should always make it back (like he does in almost every MU that's not vs MK). Diddy's probably not gonna go offstage to gimp D3 and if he does, D3 can take care of himself w/ fair and bair.

5. Can we CG Diddy? Yes! Is Diddy easy to CG? Not really... Is he easy to grab? Heck no!!!

6. If Diddy has a banana in hand, then no, we cannot shield pressure Diddy. Doing so is asking for a banana to the face. Even ftilt isn't safe. The best form of pressure we have is probably a Waddle Doo standing right in front of him, about to shoot lasers. If he isn't holding a banana, we can probably pressure safely w/ ftilt and maybe dtilt, but that's about it. Now if Diddy isn't holding a banana, then he probably can't shield pressure us, either, w/out the risk of being grabbed, bair'd, or nair'd. On the other hand, if he IS holding a banana, we can count on being pressured by a well-timed banana throw>grab. If that stuff isn't powershielded, we're probably in enough shieldstun for Diddy to punish us up close.

7. If he's in front of us, we can grab him, and if not, we can bair or nair him, but this is provided he does not have us in shield-stun from a banana throw. Vice versa, he can easily punish us with a banana throw if he has a banana in hand and we're in front of him. I don't know how we'd ever get behind him, but I don't think he can really do anything if we hit his shield from the back.

You know, is there a chance that we could somehow effectively utilize D3's broken spotdodge in this MU? Only having two frames to punish anything other than D3's left foot seems very appealing.....

Edit: I apologize for the double post, but I thought a 38 minute gap was sufficient for me to say something else. :-s

 

[Apasher]

I find landing back on the stage very difficult when Diddy has a banana in his hand. What they do vs me is wait till I land then punish by throwing the banana. Can you get around that?

 

[bubbaking]

Well, apparently, one experiences landing lag upon landing. This cannot be avoided, and I'm not sure how many frames it lasts, though I'm sure it's not long. You need to mixup how you land back on the stage. FF sometimes, fall normally other times. Sometimes, landing while swallowing is the best option. I just witnessed NinjaLink in a tournament yesterday and I played against Smurf, a Diddy main, so I got quite a taste, first-hand, of this MU. Man, he can put a lot more pressure on you than I originally thought. That glide-tossing stuff is pretty powerful... (@_@)

 

[AtotheZ]

I find landing back on the stage very difficult when Diddy has a banana in his hand. What they do vs me is wait till I land then punish by throwing the banana. Can you get around that?

Try air-dodging to shielding. You can also grab a banana that he throws at you, this will take practice, but it's helpful. Also, if you're on SV, you can just wait for the platform to hover over you and make your way over there. Just some suggestions at the top of my head.

 

[Xubble]

Mixing up your landing is your best bet. If a Diddy sees you fastfall to the stage, they're gonna throw that banana. So try saving a midair jump, fastfall to lure the throw, then jump to make them rage. Your landing has a lot to do with spacing also, so know how close they'll be when they glide toss that naner.

If you're above them, they might throw the naner or jump up to intercept and juggle. You can always catch the naner with good timing, but don't let yourself get juggled; be really conservative with your jumps.

Overall, practical use of your jumps will help you tremendously.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Landing lag upon landing depends on if it was a hard or soft landing.

I'd probably agree with Xubble on this one with the baiting a throw with jumps, but you still need to mix it up or you'll just get faired.

 

[bubbaking]

Air dodge>spot dodge might work pretty well too...possibly...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't play this match-up but numerous videos of this match-up going close exist. I can imagine it being only +1 for Diddy if the DDD playes it REALLY on point. When I have time I'll post a bunch of videos with various players doing this match-up.

 

[bubbaking]

Can D3 stop the bananas midair w/ ftilt?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GClBEAetaVc&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL9F91467C49860E6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nqKquQCY7A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC14Kw8Rt9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcHgw-aYoDM

In case you're interested.

 

[bubbaking]

Swallowing bananas is a bad idea, right?

 

[allshort17]

If Dedede short hops and Diddy throws a banana, will the banana hit Dedede or will it go under him? What if I did a short hop bair(because it changes Dedede's hitbox so that it's more horizontal.

4God's waddle dee set-up is actually very good for defense. But, I find it hard to get a waddle dee to land in the middle of the stage. Some ways you could probably do it though is to hit thrown banana by Diddy with a Waddle dee. Also, I learned that if you hit a waddle dee with just jab 1, it will fly forward a little and then turn around. This could be helpful because even if it's about to walk off the edge, you can just turn it around and extend it's life and maybe even set up Waddle doo traps.

 

[bubbaking]

In all honesty, I don't think Waddle Dees and Doos are worth the risk involved in keeping them on the stage longer than normal. I also think it would be hard to time a Waddle toss so that it hit a banana thrown by Diddy, especially if he's glide tossing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bubbaking, have you even watched the vids I posted? Like every DDD who's doing well at the match-up keeps a waddle dee in front of him to block off any grounded banana toss. That set-up is 100% legit and possibly the only reason this could be considered -1.

 

[Coney]

**** this matchup.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

Lol at salty Coney.

 

[Coney]

Diddy is just the antithesis of everything I try to do, I guess. I have a really bad ground game and feel completely powerless with bananas, and I can't even really utilize my great air game because i seem to ALWAYS get hit by fairs. Hate him.

 

[4GOD (JJV)]

I HATE FAIR! Ugh, at least it's comforting to know you share my frustration. Freaking short-hop to immediate fair...freaking broken. Yeah, I've noticed approaching from the air doesn't usually work when he's on the ground. I just gotta walk around with my waddle peeps, make sure one of the bananas is mine, and bait him into a chaingrab. One less banana in his control + a banana that can cause him to slip + waddle peeps walking around = much less options for diddy.

You know what gets me sometimes? When I have a banana that's in my control in front of me on the ground and he runs at me and short hop fairs me to get the banana. I forget Diddy can short-hop aerial to pick up an item thats on the freaking ground.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubbaking, have you even watched the vids I posted? Like every DDD who's doing well at the match-up keeps a waddle dee in front of him to block off any grounded banana toss. That set-up is 100% legit and possibly the only reason this could be considered -1.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was under the impression that allshort17 wanted to actually hit a banana thrown by Diddy midair with a Waddle Dee. I know having a Waddle already on the ground in front of you is a good setup, but he said, "I find it hard to get a waddle dee to land in the middle of the stage. Some ways you could probably do it though is to hit thrown banana by Diddy with a Waddle dee." It sounds like trying to time a Waddle toss to clash with a banana throw. Idk... :/

 

[allshort17]

I think you misunderstood my post. I was under the impression that allshort17 wanted to actually hit a banana thrown by Diddy midair with a Waddle Dee. I know having a Waddle already on the ground in front of you is a good setup, but he said, "I find it hard to get a waddle dee to land in the middle of the stage. Some ways you could probably do it though is to hit thrown banana by Diddy with a Waddle dee." It sounds like trying to time a Waddle toss to clash with a banana throw. Idk... :/

That's what I was saying. It's not as risky as you think. If you are far away enough, then you waddle dee toss would stop a glide toss from Diddy and also stop Diddy in the process. If he just tosses it, you should still be safe if the waddle dee hits the banana. It probably won't work if you overuse it, are to close, or try to react, but if you do this on occasion then Diddy really can't punish you.

 

[bubbaking]

So basically, you wanna randomly throw out Waddle Dees at long-range where you're safe.....not too different from his other matchups.

 

[Labernash]

Waddle Peeps?!?! LOLOLOLOL 4God!!!

 

[bubbaking]

I believe 4God has already given us his opinion on using Waddles. Make sure to read the previous pages.