1.0.10 Changes

[godogod]

Stale moves as you said..

Also Apparently some characters(heavy), won't get hit by all theshadowbals and may only do 10% damage.

Also depends where you throwthem. if you throw someone behind a wall, they likely won't get hit by all the shadowballs.

You know, I was thinking that we shouldn't really expect many changes from the patches this early, because he is still pretty new. But that was until I saw the changes that got:

• Forward aerial damage increased (8% → 9%).
• Forward tilt's sweetspot hitbox size increased (4.0 → 4.4).
• Forward tilt's sourspot hitbox size increased (2.0u → 2.2u).
• Down tilt's far hitbox horizontal displacement (7.0 → 7.2).
• Down tilt's middle hitbox angle altered (0° → 40°).
• Down tilt's horizontal displacement (2.7 → 3.0).
• Down tilt's growth reduced (50 → 45).
• Down tilt's close hitbox angle altered (70 → 76).
• Down tilt's base knockback increased (10 → 18).
• Down tilt's displacement (0 → 3.5).
• Grab range early size increased (2.5 → 3.0).
• Grab range later size increased (2.4 → 2.8).

Are you kidding me?! He hasn't even been out for two months and he already has gotten buffed like that from one patch? And now we look at Mewtwo, been out for 3 1/2 months, and he has only gotten landing lag reduced on nair, and damage increases on f-throw and d-smash, as if that was actually needed, and also had f-tilt duration decreased, and had his best killing move, up-smash, nerfed to hell by cutting the hitbox in half. And this was the total from 2 patches. So never mind, him not being out for very long is no excuse. They are just completely oblivious to Mewtwo's problems and probably just don't give a **** about him, which wouldn't surprise me considering the state this character was in when it got released.

Now I know that we could find more changes from this patch soon, but for right now, I'm salty.

What in the world are you talkling about. Mewtwo's up smash wasn't affected at all by the patches.

 

[Browny]

Ya'll freakin out over buffs like that to Lucas, when most of them are insignificantly small and some arent actually buffs, you dont want dtilt to have higher BKB that makes it worse for a combo move.

honestly you've got a few hitboxes being increased by a few pixels and 1% extra on the fair. The grab change is the only notable thing there and his was awful to begin with.

TBH what Mewtwo got in this latest patch is arguably better, id take an fthrow and dsmash buff over Lucas' trivial buffs.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

What in the world are you talkling about. Mewtwo's up smash wasn't affected at all by the patches.

Update 1.08 changes:

• Up smash's initial hitbox is significantly smaller, making the move more difficult to land, especially against grounded opponents.
• Neutral aerial has 3 less frames of landing lag.

You were saying?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Update 1.08 changes:

• Up smash's initial hitbox is significantly smaller, making the move more difficult to land, especially against grounded opponents.

Unless you are as big as Mewtwo so you get hit anyway. Meanwhile Kirby and Meta Knight laugh at you.

Snark Snark.

--------------------

The new buffs are surprising and yet disappointing at the same time. Dsmash KB increase is nice. Or would be if it ever landed or would ever be used.

Only decent thing I see here is a damage buff for the throw so if you like grab cheese and have perfected the art of grabbing with his terrible grab then this will be good news for you.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

The new buffs are surprising and yet disappointing at the same time. Dsmash KB increase is nice. Or would be if it ever landed or would ever be used.

Only decent thing I see here is a damage buff for the throw so if you like grab cheese and have perfected the art of grabbing with his terrible grab then this will be good news for you.

Yeah, it's looks like they have no idea what Mewtwo flaws are, as if they aren't obvious at all, so they just throw out random changes like d-smash knockback and f-throw damage increased.

 

[Chiroz]

Ya'll freakin out over buffs like that to Lucas, when most of them are insignificantly small and some arent actually buffs, you dont want dtilt to have higher BKB that makes it worse for a combo move.

honestly you've got a few hitboxes being increased by a few pixels and 1% extra on the fair. The grab change is the only notable thing there and his was awful to begin with.

TBH what Mewtwo got in this latest patch is arguably better, id take an fthrow and dsmash buff over Lucas' trivial buffs.

His D-Tilt got like 1000 times better at comboing. It now true combos into a lot of stuff it didn't. I think the angle was changed and the trip % increased too.

Also the knockback growth got decreased so it keeps comboing until kill %. And the hitbox became bigger so it's easier to land.



D-Tilt was his biggest buff. A better grab is also incredible and F-Air doing 1% more damage means if kills about 1/10th-1/8th earlier (depending on how much BKB it already had). This might not seem like much but if the move killed at 120% (random number just to make an example I have no idea what % it killed) it will now about 10-20% earlier if fresh.

 

[---]

Up-Smash was nerfed? I see that on Smash Wiki, but I don't see that in SWF's patch notes nor really mentioned until now. Sure that's not some silly Reddit claim? Not that it would surprise me given how it sometimes wiffed before.

As a MM main, the lack of a lower disjoint to help hits connect on M2's Up-Smash disgusts me.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Ya'll freakin out over buffs like that to Lucas, when most of them are insignificantly small and some arent actually buffs, you dont want dtilt to have higher BKB that makes it worse for a combo move.

honestly you've got a few hitboxes being increased by a few pixels and 1% extra on the fair. The grab change is the only notable thing there and his was awful to begin with.

TBH what Mewtwo got in this latest patch is arguably better, id take an fthrow and dsmash buff over Lucas' trivial buffs.

Uh, hitbox sizes being increased aren't what I call trivial, even if the increases aren't that big. That's still pretty helpful, and something Mewtwo kinda needs, along with that desperately needed grab range buff. You can hardly get a grab with Mewtwo so the f-throw buff isn't very useful, and down smash hardly lands because of its hitbox problem, so that buff isn't very useful either. And it's not so much that Lucas got useful changes, but it is that he got so many changes, and he hasn't even been out for 2 months, whereas Mewtwo has been out for 2 months longer than him and hasn't been getting ****.

 

[Chiroz]

Up-Smash was nerfed? I see that on Smash Wiki, but I don't see that in SWF's patch notes nor really mentioned until now. Sure that's not some silly Reddit claim? Not that it would surprise me given how it sometimes wiffed before.

As a MM main, the lack of a lower disjoint to help hits connect on M2's Up-Smash disgusts me.

Honestly if it was nerfed I think it was just his middle hitboxes, the one that only hit above him anyways.

That was part of patch 1.0.8 by the way. I think it was in SWF too.

Like I noticed no change to the first hitbox which is the one that counts anyways.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Up-Smash was nerfed? I see that on Smash Wiki, but I don't see that in SWF's patch notes nor really mentioned until now. Sure that's not some silly Reddit claim? Not that it would surprise me given how it sometimes wiffed before.

As a MM main, the lack of a lower disjoint to help hits connect on M2's Up-Smash disgusts me.

SmashWiki only posts verifiable claims, supposedly, and it has been there for over a month now so I guess they couldn't disprove it. Unless the opponent is right up against you or is the same size as you, it won't drag a grounded opponent into the attack like it used to, at least not for me. But this is just the initial hitboxes, so the final hit should always get your opponents anyway, that is if they didn't move out of way while the first hits missed.

 

[Chiroz]

SmashWiki only posts verifiable claims, supposedly, and it has been there for over a month now so I guess they couldn't disprove it. Unless the opponent is right up against you or is the same size as you, it won't drag a grounded opponent into the attack like it used to, at least not for me. But this is just the initial hitboxes, so the final hit should always get your opponents anyway, that is if they didn't move out of way while the first hits missed.

IIRC it never dragged an opponent into the hitbox unless they were literally inside you (or in the air).



Also SmashWiki still has wrong values for Rage and it had some erroneous information about stages super quickly that I disproved myself about 30 minutes after the "discovery" itself but SmashWiki already had that information included by that time.

Remember that Wikis are open for anyone and everyone to write whatever they want.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

IIRC it never dragged an opponent into the hitbox unless they were literally inside you (or in the air).



Also SmashWiki still has wrong values for Rage and it had some erroneous information about stages super quickly that I disproved myself about 30 minutes after the "discovery" itself but SmashWiki already had that information included by that time.

Remember that Wikis are open for anyone and everyone to write whatever they want.

That's why I said "supposedly", lol, because I know anyone can post there. But really? It never dragged the opponent in? Opponents got dragged in easily for me even if they weren't right up against me until patch 1.08. Well then, I guess just ignore everything I've said as far as that goes.

 

[MagiusNecros]

But yeah all of Mewtwo's big flaws got ignored. If they made the tail intangible I'd be happy. We get hit by stupid **** just because of that alone.

 

[Browny]

1) Marths dtilt hurtbox extension
http://i.imgur.com/uIFQtkV.png

2) Max range to hitbox start = total disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/5jJogJT.jpg

3) Mewtwos hurtbox maximum extension (On the spark)
http://i.imgur.com/9pHb1bm.png

4) Mewtwos hitbox max range + disjoint
http://i.imgur.com/MDdsZqc.jpg

Conclusion: Mewtwos dtilt has a considerably large disjoint and it is larger than marths.

All arguments to my evidence are to be submitted via screenshot or video proof only.

Look I'll explain this clearly.

All attacks in smash 4, and brawl, will 'spark' if the attack is literally a pixel away from hitting. This shows an attacks maximum range. If a character has a hurtbox with a z depth and the attack clearly goes through them, the spark might appear inside a characters hurtbox, but it will only ever appear on the pixel outside the maximum range of an attack.

http://i.imgur.com/JMdumps.png

Here is the disjoint on bair, within +/- 2 pixels. That looks very consistent with the disjoint on dtilt so it might not be move-specific.

Mewtwo's tail is SIGNIFICANTLY disjointed, more so than Marth's sword.

 

[MikamiLovesDeleting]

It is F-Tilt, it has reduced duration.

As in before the move lasted say 36 frames (24 of those being endlag), now the move lasts 35 frames (24 of those being endlag).



I misspoke when I said endlag, the hitbox is the part that lasts 1/3rd less time.

Interesting. Would you say the general consensus is that this is a buff? I only ever use Ftilt to push opponents away.

 

[Chiroz]

Interesting. Would you say the general consensus is that this is a buff? I only ever use Ftilt to push opponents away.

I would say it basically doesn't matter.

It's technically a nerf, but honestly it's not something that will matter like ever.

 

[pikazz]

His D-Tilt got like 1000 times better at comboing. It now true combos into a lot of stuff it didn't. I think the angle was changed and the trip % increased too.

Also the knockback growth got decreased so it keeps comboing until kill %. And the hitbox became bigger so it's easier to land.



D-Tilt was his biggest buff. A better grab is also incredible and F-Air doing 1% more damage means if kills about 1/10th-1/8th earlier (depending on how much BKB it already had). This might not seem like much but if the move killed at 120% (random number just to make an example I have no idea what % it killed) it will now about 10-20% earlier if fresh.

His D-Tilt lost one function tho, it cant jablock any more. meaning you only have SourSpot Tilt, Sourpot FAir and 4th hit on DAir to make the jablock with

edit: must be hitting with the wrong hitbox with the jablock, but I still cant to hit the opponent with the sweet spot on lucas tilt

 

[Chiroz]

His D-Tilt lost one function tho, it cant jablock any more. meaning you only have SourSpot Tilt, Sourpot FAir and 4th hit on DAir to make the jablock with

edit: must be hitting with the wrong hitbox with the jablock, but I still cant to hit the opponent with the sweet spot on lucas tilt

D-Tilt can still jab lock. A friend of mine did it yesterday .

 

[Browny]

His D-Tilt got like 1000 times better at comboing. It now true combos into a lot of stuff it didn't. I think the angle was changed and the trip % increased too.

Also the knockback growth got decreased so it keeps comboing until kill %. And the hitbox became bigger so it's easier to land.



D-Tilt was his biggest buff. A better grab is also incredible and F-Air doing 1% more damage means if kills about 1/10th-1/8th earlier (depending on how much BKB it already had). This might not seem like much but if the move killed at 120% (random number just to make an example I have no idea what % it killed) it will now about 10-20% earlier if fresh.

Raykz it probably seems like I'm targeting you on this forum, but I target anyone who posts unverifiable claims.

I made those calls on Lucas' dtilt without even playing as him because I figured thats what those numbers meant, so I did some testing today side-by side with 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 dtilt and I still think its a nerf.

In 1.0.9 his dtilt when landed on a shield and cancelled into an ftilt was able to be shielded
in 1.1.0, the move ends quicker to the point that if he tries to combo into ftilt it is now perfect shielded instead.

So going off this, we can figure out that dtilt on hit has a +7 advantage, its shieldstun is unchanged. None of Lucas' aerials come out on frame 6 or earlier, the only move he has that does is jab and utilt, but dtilt to jab/utilt worked pre-patch anyway.

-----

As before, I'm perfectly open to being proven wrong here, but I'd like to see some frame data backing this up. As soon as I saw those patch notes it looked like a nerf to me.

 

[RayNoire]

His D-Tilt lost one function tho, it cant jablock any more. meaning you only have SourSpot Tilt, Sourpot FAir and 4th hit on DAir to make the jablock with

edit: must be hitting with the wrong hitbox with the jablock, but I still cant to hit the opponent with the sweet spot on lucas tilt

I thought you guys were talking about Mewtwo and I was super confused.

Speaking of confusion, did anyone ever figure out what the side-B change was that was in the data thingy?

 

[Chiroz]

Raykz it probably seems like I'm targeting you on this forum, but I target anyone who posts unverifiable claims.

I made those calls on Lucas' dtilt without even playing as him because I figured thats what those numbers meant, so I did some testing today side-by side with 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 dtilt and I still think its a flat out nerf.

In 1.0.9 his dtilt when landed on a shield and cancelled into an ftilt was able to be shielded
in 1.1.0, the move ends quicker to the point that if he tries to combo into ftilt it is now perfect shielded instead. In theory its a buff, in practice its a nerf.

So going off this, we can figure out that dtilt on hit has a +7 advantage, its shieldstun is unchanged. None of Lucas' aerials come out on frame 6 or earlier, the only move he has that does is jab and utilt, but dtilt to jab/utilt worked pre-patch anyway.

-----

What this all means (to everyone else here including @ RoyIsOurBoy_TTG Is that pre-patch Lucas' dtilt could only ever combo into itself, jab or utilt. post-patch is still does the same thing, except now if you attempt to ftilt instead you get perfect shielded instead of a regular shield.

Therefore overall, its a nerf.

As before, I'm perfectly open to being proven wrong here, but I'd like to see some frame data backing this up. As soon as I saw those patch notes it looked like a nerf to me and my testing so far shows exactly what I thought.

Pretty easy to prove you wrong.

D-Tilt is a move that sends upwards. You can shield instantly upon landing. If you don't land you can't shield. If the move has higher BKB it means you will start to "not land" at a sooner %. The fact that the angle got slightly changed to send opponents more upwards also means they will start to "not land sooner"

The game is not played only at 0%. Try 30%. 45%. Etc.

There's also other factors like fall speed and weight. Mewtwo's jab for example we can all agree is a good combo move, right? Yet it can be shielded or jabbed by fast fallers.

But there's other ways to get combos too, like double D-Tilt which makes the opponent rise higher and allows for combos at even sooner %s. The reduced KBG also allows you to combo out of double D-Tilt until larger %s.

***Also the move now has more chance to trip, when they trip then you get an assured attack/grab, which also means more combos at all %s.***

I didn't say D-Tilt became Lucas' best comboing tool or that it's the best combo move out there. I said that it is a *better* combo tool than it was before. Since now you can get the same combos at a sooner % and also now you can get more chance for tripping which allows for more combos then it's pretty evident that it can combo more than it did prepatch, thus making it a better combo tool. It was a buff.

***Edit: I don't see the tripping chance altered in the patch notes, this part might not be true I guess. I had read it had more chance to trip than prepatch. I am sorry if I am wrong on this, I have not tested whether or not D-Tilt has higher chance to trip or not.



Before claiming stuff test things thoroughly and try to get an understanding of those things instead of making an opinion without understanding how something works. You seem to always be hellbent on proving your own opinion without thinking on why things might not be as you think they are.

 

[Browny]

What combos though? Seriously what combos does this open up that he didn't have before or what %s do his combos now work at. The angle it sends the enemy at is irrelevant if at no time can it combo into anything new.

Mewtwos jab doesnt count as a combo move, its a frame trap.

I'm not so much hell-bent on proving my opinion as I am having people actually post proof of their claims. You come in here claiming that his dtilt has been buffed to the point it is now '1000 times better at comboing'. OK then how? I get the theory, but I don't think the changes are significant enough to actually make a real difference, not when the moves that dtilt combos into already worked anyway in 1.0.9. Honestly its like if someone made sheiks ftilt end 1 frame sooner, thats a buff to a combo move, but its irrelevant since it auto-combo'd anyway, it would make no difference.

I dont want to know the angle it sends the enemy at, I dont care about the new BKB or KBG, I want to know what combos are now possible that weren't possible before with 1.0.9 dtilt.

 

[Chiroz]

What combos though? Seriously what combos does this open up that he didn't have before or what %s do his combos now work at. The angle it sends the enemy at is irrelevant if at no time can it combo into anything new.

Mewtwos jab doesnt count as a combo move, its a frame trap.

I'm not so much hell-bent on proving my opinion as I am having people actually post proof of their claims. You come in here claiming that his dtilt has been buffed to the point it is now '1000 times better at comboing'. OK then how? I get the theory, but I don't think the changes are significant enough to actually make a real difference, not when the moves that dtilt combos into already worked anyway in 1.0.9. Honestly its like if someone made sheiks ftilt end 1 frame sooner, thats a buff to a combo move, but its irrelevant since it auto-combo'd anyway, it would make no difference.

I dont want to know the angle it sends the enemy at, I dont care about the new BKB or KBG, I want to know what combos are now possible that weren't possible before with 1.0.9 dtilt.

You were the one who claimed it made combo's worse with no proof:

Ya'll freakin out over buffs like that to Lucas, when most of them are insignificantly small and some arent actually buffs, you dont want dtilt to have higher BKB that makes it worse for a combo move.

honestly you've got a few hitboxes being increased by a few pixels and 1% extra on the fair. The grab change is the only notable thing there and his was awful to begin with.

TBH what Mewtwo got in this latest patch is arguably better, id take an fthrow and dsmash buff over Lucas' trivial buffs.

How about you follow your own advice and post proof to your claims? What combos can he NOT do that he could before? You are mostly hellbent on proving your opinion, I'll just say this, the moment I saw your name about 3 weeks ago I got scared because the way I remembered your name from the first days of Mewtwo's release was as the guy who just posted random wrong info and is impossible to convince otherwise and I don't even remember what discussion we had back in April/May that forever plastered you in my mind as such.





As for my proof, just out of PURE theorycrafting because I don't play Lucas and can't test prepatch stuff:

(This is all me theorycrafting but you can check it up yourself and post videos proving me wrong)

D-Tilt to F-Tilt probably works earlier than it would prepatch. D-Tilt to D-Tilt works earlier on Fast Fallers that would otherwise shield. D-Tilt to D-Tilt works until later %s on floaties.

D-Tilt to Grab is now a thing. You might say it's because of the grab buff, but it's not only due to the grab buff since Mewtwo can jab out of it at 0% because he lands too fast but Mewtwo gets grabbed later on (Didn't test exact % this starts happening but it happens at later %s for sure).

Fact is you said it was a nerf with 0 proof. Even if it wouldn't allow for any new combos (which I believe wholeheartedly that it does), it's still not a nerf if it didn't lose a single combo. It also has bigger hitboxes and sends the opponent farther away (making it more safe) and it *might* have more tripping chance, I am fairly certain I read that somewhere but don't know if it's accurate or not. This is all BUFFS.



You don't fully understand what a frame trap is btw. Just like you didn't fully understand how staling worked.

Mewtwo's jab doesn't leave time for the opponent to input any move. It isn't exactly a combo starter (at low %s), but it's technically not a frame trap either. It's closer to being a combo starter than it is to being a frame trap, semantically speaking. Plus at higher %s it literally is a combo starter because it true combos into tilts.

 

[Browny]

I had 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 basically side by side when I tested this stuff

Mewtwo (or anyone elses) fall speed is irrelevant when all I needed was a number to find out how quickly he could act after a dtilt hit, and that was confirmed at around 8-9 frames.

Lucas' attacks that come out sooner than that;
jab (2)
dtilt (3)
utilt (4)
ftilt (7) only at higher %'s does this combo

And attacks after it
jumpsquat 4 frames
uair/nair (7 + 4 = 11)

Everything else is far too slow.

The move didn't gain an extra 3 frames advantage

Yes it is a better combo move, but the point is there are only 3 attacks it could ever combo into in 1.0.9 and in 1.1.0 there are still only 3 attacks

---

dtilt to grab worked in 1.0.9 perfectly fine, I don't have the frame data on that but it felt inescapable.

The only difference I found with the move, in practice for the purpose of combos, was dtilt-ftilt in which case mewtwo was able to consistently perfect shield it while in 1.0.9 it was a normal shield. For fast fallers this would make literally no difference, it was a normal shield then and it still is now. For floaties though, they can now perfect shield it at low %s. Maybe it combos better into ftilt in general, but even so it should have combod into it anyway in 1.0.9 at anything above like... 10%, but you would go for double dtilts instead.

You say the move is safer, but thats not the point of it! On hit it has a pretty decent frame advantage, why would you want the enemy to be further away from you when you have a frame advantage? A bigger hitbox with more knockback is going to make it less likely to even combo and if its safe on block so I can dtilt-grab, pushing the enemy further away is again not ideal since lucas' grab takes a few frames to fully reach.

Honestly you have a short-range combo starter with a decent frame advantage, and a BKB increase is called a buff while an KBG decrease is called a nerf. That so backwards.

Answer me this; would you be happy if Mewtwos dtilt got an increase in BKB and increase in KBG? I sure wouldnt, keep those values as low as possible.

Or am I literally completely backwards here, do people want combo moves to send the enemy further away from them?

 

[mobilisq]

When did they remove the visual flair on his air dodge? If you're holding an item it now will phase out of existence along with mewtwo instead of rapidly circling around him

 

[Chiroz]

I had 1.0.9 and 1.1.0 basically side by side when I tested this stuff

Mewtwo (or anyone elses) fall speed is irrelevant when all I needed was a number to find out how quickly he could act after a dtilt hit, and that was confirmed at around 8-9 frames.

Lucas' attacks that come out sooner than that;
jab (2)
dtilt (3)
utilt (4)
ftilt (7) only at higher %'s does this combo

And attacks after it
jumpsquat 4 frames
uair/nair (7 + 4 = 11)

Everything else is far too slow.

The move didn't gain an extra 3 frames advantage

Yes it is a better combo move, but the point is there are only 3 attacks it could ever combo into in 1.0.9 and in 1.1.0 there are still only 3 attacks

---

dtilt to grab worked in 1.0.9 perfectly fine, I don't have the frame data on that but it felt inescapable.

The only difference I found with the move, in practice for the purpose of combos, was dtilt-ftilt in which case mewtwo was able to consistently perfect shield it while in 1.0.9 it was a normal shield. For fast fallers this would make literally no difference, it was a normal shield then and it still is now. For floaties though, they can now perfect shield it at low %s. Maybe it combos better into ftilt in general, but even so it should have combod into it anyway in 1.0.9 at anything above like... 10%, but you would go for double dtilts instead.

You say the move is safer, but thats not the point of it! On hit it has a pretty decent frame advantage, why would you want the enemy to be further away from you when you have a frame advantage? A bigger hitbox with more knockback is going to make it less likely to even combo and if its safe on block so I can dtilt-grab, pushing the enemy further away is again not ideal since lucas' grab takes a few frames to fully reach.

Honestly you have a short-range combo starter with a decent frame advantage, and a BKB increase is called a buff while an KBG decrease is called a nerf. That so backwards.

Answer me this; would you be happy if Mewtwos dtilt got an increase in BKB and increase in KBG? I sure wouldnt, keep those values as low as possible.

Or am I literally completely backwards here, do people want combo moves to send the enemy further away from them?

Did you know: the more % you have, the more hitstun you have (apparently you don't know). This is why "frame advantage" is only calculated ON SHIELD, because on hitstun it varies depending in weight and %.

Did you know: upon landing on hitstun (non-tumble) you immediately go out of hitstun and into landing animation (apparently you don't know).

Did you know: the fact that you landed and shielded has NOTHING to do with how much hitstun you have or positive frames you have (apparently you don't).



Dude I literally proved to you how it combos earlier than it did before. If you think combos only start when the opponent is at 0% then you know nothing about the game at all.

I also already answered all of the questions you listed including why having more KB allows that move to be better at comboing.



Having more or less knockback on a move can be a buff or a nerf depending on how much knowback and which move it is. I'd be extremely happy if Jab got a sloght KB increase upwards (not outwards). Like you wouldn't imagine how happy it would make me to be able to combo fast fallers out of jab before 70% (like it is now).

Or do you not know Mewtwo can Jab->D-Tilt? Because with how little you understand of the game I wouldn't be surprised. He can't do it on fast fallers until 70% though. If he received Lucas' buff to Jab then he would probably be able to do it on fast fallers around 40% instead while still being able to combo floaties just the same (since Jab works on them until like 200%). It would be a BUFF.




Please follow:

People can shield after a D-Tilt because they land too fast which takes them out of hitstun.

They will be able to shield until they can't land anymore.

The higher the KB the longer they last landing.

The longer they last landing the more time Lucas' has to get out of ending lag and combo into another move.

At 0% people can land and perfect shield which means they have 3 frames to shield.

The more % the longer the higher they go and the longer they last to land.

As soon as they go high enough so that they lat 3 more frames in the air, then you will get a combo

Thus the higher KB is a buff to it's combo ability.



Also, D-Tilt to grab was definitely not a thing prepatch. 1.0.10 Mewtwo can jab through it (frame 6 jab) until about 70% at which point it becomes guaranteed. Fox can jab through it (fast faller frame 3 jab) until about 110-120% but at that point he can jump out of it. The only reason D-Tilt->Grab is a thing is because of both the Down-Tilt and Grab buffs.

Prepatch it was mostly probably a frame trap situation moreso than a guaranteed combo.

 

[carlos11]

Excuse me, does anyone know if Mewtwo's Fsmash still whiffs at point blank?

I've been trying to make it whiff but I haven't been able to do it, which leads me to believe it may have been fixed.

 

[Chiroz]

Excuse me, does anyone know if Mewtwo's Fsmash still whiffs at point blank?

I've been trying to make it whiff but I haven't been able to do it, which leads me to believe it may have been fixed.

It still whiffs unfortunately.

 

[LRodC]

So since Down Smash has been buffed in KB, is it stronger than tipped Forward Smash now? Now it seems like it's the most powerful smash Mewtwo has (not sure about up smash), as it kills WFT in the middle of FD earlier than tipped forward smash for me.

Also yeah, the forward smash still whiffs at point blank, and the hitbox trails haven't been cleaned up yet unfortunately.

 

[RayNoire]

Could be, but it doesn't really change that much. Fsmash is still better after a ledgestand read Disable and as a pivoted landing trap, while Dsmash was already better everywhere else.

 

[Chiroz]

D-Smash now basically kills at the same % as sourspot F-Smash, only it can't be DIed (any DI basically makes the opponent die earlier to be honest since it seems to be 45 degree angle).

While this might make it seem like it's stronger than F-Smash, F-Smash still has tipper which kills earlier even if DIed.

Could be, but it doesn't really change that much. Fsmash is still better after a ledgestand read Disable and as a pivoted landing trap, while Dsmash was already better everywhere else.

What exactly is D-Smash good at that either U-Smash, Disable or F-Smash don't already do better. The only thing I can think of that neither U-Smash, Disable or F-Smash hit under the ledge (which D-Smash just barely, barely does).

I virtually never use D-Smash, lol



Edit: I guess it also hits small chars like Pikachu/Kirby when they are landing, attacking or crouching, something F-Smash and Disable are incapable of doing. But this is a very, very matchup specific use, not really D-Smash being better as much as our other moves having bull**** properties, lol.

 

[RayNoire]

D-Smash now basically kills at the same % as sourspot F-Smash, only it can't be DIed (any DI basically makes the opponent die earlier to be honest since it seems to be 45 degree angle).

While this might make it seem like it's stronger than F-Smash, F-Smash still has tipper which kills earlier even if DIed.




What exactly is D-Smash good at that either U-Smash, Disable or F-Smash don't already do better. The only thing I can think of that neither U-Smash, Disable or F-Smash hit under the ledge (which D-Smash just barely, barely does).

I virtually never use D-Smash, lol



Edit: I guess it also hits small chars like Pikachu/Kirby when they are landing, attacking or crouching, something F-Smash and Disable are incapable of doing. But this is a very, very matchup specific use, not really D-Smash being better as much as our other moves having bull**** properties, lol.

It's actually not a terrible move in neutral; due to the low endlag it's sort of a poor man's Meta Knight/Sonic Fsmash. Good bait for people who don't know the MU (so everyone lol). It's also a good tech chase option that doesn't leave you dead if you whiff.

Fsmash is really the one caught in the middle. Not as safe as Dsmash, not as fast as Usmash, not as good a hard punish/read as Disable. It's sort of relegated to niche uses like I mentioned. It's easily our worst move, which is actually not bad at all. (But we know Mewtwo's problem isn't his moveset.)

 

[MikamiLovesDeleting]

If the Shadow Balls all count as 1 individual move then F-Throw just got it's biggest and best use, move freshening. But I highly doubt they do. The Hand Push attack and the Shadow Balls though might actually be 2 different attacks and might be counted as separate attacks for the queue. That's probably what's causing that difference.

Hey Raykz sorry to bother you again but have you been able to confirm whether or not each individual shadow ball counts as its own attack? I would love to spam Fthrow on For Glory scrubs if that were the case.

 

[carlos11]

Wait just a fat minute.

You guys don't use Dsmash when you land Disable? Is Fsmash always the best option regardless of where on the stage you stand, or does it vary? Is a semicharged Fsmash better than even a fully charged SB?

 

[---]

Wait just a fat minute.

You guys don't use Dsmash when you land Disable? Is Fsmash always the best option regardless of where on the stage you stand, or does it vary? Is a semicharged Fsmash better than even a fully charged SB?

Pretty much. D-Smash kills about 1-3% later compared to sweet spot F-Smash/U-Smash without DI, and with DI around ~20% (haven't tested, just common sense) due to the 45% angle it launches at.

I don't remember the angles between the two moves, but a max charge SB = min charge sweet spot F-Smash, both without DIing. It's probably better to go with F-Smash in most cases as you'll want to save the charged SB.

 

[Chiroz]

It's actually not a terrible move in neutral; due to the low endlag it's sort of a poor man's Meta Knight/Sonic Fsmash. Good bait for people who don't know the MU (so everyone lol). It's also a good tech chase option that doesn't leave you dead if you whiff.

Fsmash is really the one caught in the middle. Not as safe as Dsmash, not as fast as Usmash, not as good a hard punish/read as Disable. It's sort of relegated to niche uses like I mentioned. It's easily our worst move, which is actually not bad at all. (But we know Mewtwo's problem isn't his moveset.)

D-Smash can't hit opponents in the air though so the only thing it can do that Disable can't is hit crouching opponents and opponents looking backwards.

Disable is safer and has more range. But meh, D-Smash is just not worth it in my eyes.

Wait just a fat minute.

You guys don't use Dsmash when you land Disable? Is Fsmash always the best option regardless of where on the stage you stand, or does it vary? Is a semicharged Fsmash better than even a fully charged SB?

Actually you should be going for U-Smash in 75% of the cases you land Disable.

 

[Chiroz]

Hey Raykz sorry to bother you again but have you been able to confirm whether or not each individual shadow ball counts as its own attack? I would love to spam Fthrow on For Glory scrubs if that were the case.

They don't count as a separate hit. In fact I don't think the Hand Push and the Balls count as separate hits either from a 15 minute test. This is extremely weird. I will try and test out why doing 4 F-Throws does 47% instead of 46% tonight once I get home and report any findings here.






Just giving it some though I have a new theory:

I think the game doesn't use as many decimal points as people think it does. I think it probably rounds after 2 decimals or something like that. So while the SBs don't count as separate hits for the stale counter, each of their damage dealt does get reduced separately by the stale counter.

What I mean is that instead of doing:

13% * 0.75 = 9.75

You get something like:

(3 * 0.8) + (2 * 0.8) + (2 * 0.8) + (2 * 0.8) + (2 * 0.8) + (2 * 0.8) =
2.25 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 = 9.75



But with some rounding up here and there it might end up being higher because of it. What I will do is tonight I will try to find out exactly how much moves stale with each counter and then try and do the math accordingly. I will find out what's going on .

 

[RayNoire]

Wait just a fat minute.

You guys don't use Dsmash when you land Disable? Is Fsmash always the best option regardless of where on the stage you stand, or does it vary? Is a semicharged Fsmash better than even a fully charged SB?

Usually you should do Usmash after Disable unless they're standing on the ledge, since Mewtwo's fat ass can sometimes push them off when getting in the position for Usmash (and Fsmash should kill better anyway in that spot).

 

[Chiroz]

Usually you should do Usmash after Disable unless they're standing on the ledge, since Mewtwo's fat *** can sometimes push them off when getting in the position for Usmash (and Fsmash should kill better anyway in that spot).

I already tested with weights and fallspeed.

On Dedede (hardest char to kill from the top), F-Smash kills before U-Smash when you are no farther away than 1/3rd of the stage from the ledge.

With Jiggz it's about 1/6-1/5th of the stage.

As a rule of thumb so I don't waste time calculating how much my opponent weights/falls or how far away my opponent I just default to 25%.

If my opponent is less than 1/4th of the stage away from the ledge Mewtwo is facing then I just F-Smash, otherwise I always U-Smash.

 

[---]

Left this open an extra day given the activity. Any further discussion can be taken to the moveset thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-fujis-journal-moveset-thread-revamp-round-two.398158/