[#06] Jigglypuff MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Bahamut777]

Discuss...

 

[Exalted]

I officially lmao'd at the pic.

 

[-LzR-]

I have played this MU
First off, Jiggypuff is really dangerous, but the important thing is, a few hits is enough to kill Jigglypuff.
Overall what I have noticed, this MU really slow.
I space bairs just outside of his range, he waits. Nothing happens for like a minute usually. Then I usually force the Ganon to approach or just poke his shield and run and aircamp. Jigglypuff must not get hit.
Unless you are really ballsy, don't even think about using rest, no need to use it.
This is a very very slow MU. Jigglypuff can control the tempo of the match easily and I usually tend to go slow as Ganon doesn't like the timer going when he is losing. The reason this MU isn't **** is that Jigglypuff is really weak to Ganon's strong moves.
Jigglypuff players shouldn't do anything but just space their aerials. Even after about 200%. No need to kill, it's unsafe and unnecessary. Just wait for the moment you can grab him, throw him off the stage and it's gg for Ganon =/
Ganondorfs of course will ban RC in this MU, it forces the MU to go forward.
Jigglypuff players should go hit n run style and play really really safe. It's not worth the risk to get hit.
One hit and you might have lost the lead and have to approach Ganon and if you get predictable with your approach... Well you know.
I won't throw in any ratios, they are pointless. Jigglypuff obviously has the advantage, but the MU isn't **** due to Ganons power being a huge fear for puffs. Ganon players try to get the lead or you gonna get timed.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Weren't we doing this in tier order?

 

[Exalted]

Seems not.

 

[Bahamut777]

Noob made me do this. Argue with him.
Gotta made mah big poest. -derp

 

[Noobicidal]

Noob made me do this. Argue with him.
Gotta made mah big poest. -derp

Make a large post so I can refute it point by point. I'd much rather do that than make a write-up of my own.

 

[T-block]

Pretty scary MU for Jiggs, but nothing too difficult. If Jiggs really wanted to play seriously, I have a hard time seeing how Ganondorf would catch a Jiggs intent on running away.

Her crouch is low enough to duck down-b, right? Not completely sure on this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is deceptively horrible for Ganon. It's easily a worse matchup than Wario.

A blind man could see how easily Jiggs outzones Ganon. He doesn't have very good answers to her B-air and Pound, and when she gets in on him she punishes HARD. one WoP or just simply getting Ganon offstage in this matchup usually results in him getting gimped, since her D-air edgeguards Ganon very well. Rollout isn't hard to land in this matchup either especially on FD. And Jiggs actually should survive fairly long against Ganon, in that while he can kill her fairly early, he doesn't have the tools to actually land a kill move on her.

I would put this matchup 7/3 out of Ganon's favor. You're crazy if you think it's anything easier for Ganon. This is actually one of his worst matchups in the current low tier by far. Ganon has very few really gay options against Jiggs, while Jiggs has a LOT of incredibly gay options against Ganon which can kill him extremely easily.

 

[bigbucks]

You can easily set up a backwards shield and shieldgrab jiggs Rollout.
If the jiggs isn't very carefull with her spacing. You can pivot grab her. If the player has good spacing ability. Use nair, it's great against walls.

 

[Noobicidal]

You can easily set up a backwards shield and shieldgrab jiggs Rollout.
If the jiggs isn't very carefull with her spacing. You can pivot grab her. If the player has good spacing ability. Use nair, it's great against walls.

I suppose it's a good thing that we're imagining the Puff player at the top level of play. The ONLY use for Rollout is to mix up recovery (since Rollout autocancels and snaps to the ledge). A better point to make is that if the Puff actually uses Rollout, you can just choke them out of it and take moderate damage.

You're not going to pivot grab anything that Jiggs throws out at Ganon, and Nair alone won't stop Puff's Bair walls.

 

[Bahamut777]

Ganon gets ***** (duh!). But can **** as well here.

The fact Jiggz outranges and walls Ganon the entire match is irrefutable. We can and will get BAir / FAired offstage to our deaths almost 100% of the time. Not many thing we can do around it, only the air dodge, wich can and will be punished if the player is at least smart.

How does Ganon deals with it then? He BAirs and NAirs BEFORE Jiggly attacks. Both trade hits with all Jiggly aerials. This still racks your %, but at least you're not in position of being dead and also is setting up your kill.

What REALLY "balances" this MU is the fact that Jiggly dies at -10% against Ganon. She dies SOOOOOOOOOOOO early it's ridiculous! A fresh DAir onstage can star KO at 60%. 60%!!! Also, Jiggly gets hit by almost all Gerudo FUs, including our lame DSmash and, if she just stands there, the USmash as well. And Aerudo, if spaced well, can grab Jiggly's BAir and FAir.

About the offstage game... like MK, dont go trying much stuff there... Jiggly's recovery may look like lame, but it's very versatile and horizontally infinite. You can try to tipman do her death, but if you miss and get Pounded, chances are that you're dead.

Thing is... we die if we get hit twice without touching the ground. Jiggly dies if she gets touched 3 times in the stock. This sums up very well the MU.

About c.picks... pick a small stage or a stage with poor air mobility, like Brinstar or Distant Planet... dunno much about Jiggz c.picking.

70:30 Jiggly at most.

 

[bigbucks]

Whattttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Never cp brin against jiggs.

 

[Noobicidal]

Brinstar is Puff's second best stage behind RC. Jigglypuff doesn't really suffer from CPs unlike most characters, but taking her to a platform-intensive place such as Battlefield would be a good idea.

including our lame DSmash.

This is assuming that the Puff doesn't false buffer a roll. Even if you do manage to hit with D-Smash, we'll just SDI up and start a Bair chain.

 

[Breezy]

Charge random Fsmashs

 

[Z1GMA]

Frame Perfect SH Uair's.
SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair, SH Uair.
Jiggly has no ground-game, so we won't be punished beneath our Uair.

Also, throw in a bunch of Bair's - Both SH'd and FH'd.

Stomp is pretty useless here.
Only use it if you're sure it's safe.

Fair is really risky Vs jigz.
It can kill her at insane low %'s, though.
Choose you Fair-moments very wisely.

iDA is rediculously effective in this match-up.
Don't save it for KO's - Use it well timed to Out Power jigz.
Don't get predictable with it, though.

Gerudo is worthless here.
Though, Aerudo can choke out her aerials.
Use Aerudo only when you're sure it'll work.

We'll kill her at around 80%
If we don't get gimped, we'll get killed at around 140%.

35 : 65

 

[Placebo Effect]

I threw up a little...

Lots of b-airs and maybe throws, Warlock Punch her if she gets ****y and tries to rest. All I got and it works so eh. @.@

 

[Z1GMA]

Ye, you can actually bait Jiggly with a Warlock Punch, just to have her Rest you,
and then you WP her.
Bait when you're at around 60% where Rest usually kills mid-weights.

<!> Works if the Jiggly-player is stupid.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jiggly has no ground-game, so we won't be punished beneath our Uair.

No ground game? Dash attack is legit and can either KO or set up gimps. Her grab is above average. Tilts aren't impressive but decent. She also has a DACUS and a decent F-smash that she can bait into pretty easily for pretty early kills.

And I laugh at people who think that Jiggs just dies in three hits. Sure, if Sandbag weighed as much as she did, you could kill him in that many hits. But this isn't Sandbag. This is Jigglypuff. Sure if they keep running into random Smashes and F-airs you'll kill them quickly. But in reality she survives really long in this matchup if she knows that you really have no way of killing her outside of random U-airs, F-airs, and DAs. You will never kill this character with D-air since you can't really land Flame Choke in this matchup. Smashes are much too punishable in this matchup and getting punished is unaffordable for Ganon due to how easily he gets gimped. B-air almost never sees real use since retreating safely is actually impossible in this matchup due to how insanely fast Jiggs can chase you down. F-tilt is nearly impossible to apply properly in this matchup due to...Flame Choke being unviable and because it can't anti-air **** in this matchup. And she can punish it on the ground just fine anyway.

70/30 is a generous matchup ratio. In reality given how hopeless Ganondorf is with CPs in this matchup, I would have to now put the matchup closer to 80/20.

Rollout is very good in this matchup actually. If Ganon somehow manages to not immediately get gimped, he HAS to have a platform or he is guaranteed to die the moment he touches the ground.

I have to really emphasize that this matchup by far is more frustrating and disadvantageous than Wario. You can sorta kill Wario in three hits. You can't do that against a competent Jiggs, while she kinda can do that to you.

 

[Noobicidal]

No ground game? Dash attack is legit and can either KO or set up gimps. Her grab is above average. Tilts aren't impressive but decent. She also has a DACUS and a decent F-smash that she can bait into pretty easily for pretty early kills

I'll agree with dash attack, but I find your other statements laughable. While her grabs do 10.5% regardless of direction, none of them are given enough hitstun or the proper knockback to actually follow up on. The ONLY tilt that Puff can use in this match up (and arguably any other) is Utilt, preferably after a falling Uair, or as a desperate kill move at around 140%.

Rollout is very good in this matchup actually.

The only time that a Puff will EVER use Rollout would be as an alternate recovery method, or as a possible tech chase option after ftilt (assuming the opponent misses the tech or rolls away). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, GANON CAN CHOKE PUFF WHILE SHE USES ROLLOUT. As any Ganon user knows, Ganon can do whatever he wants to Puff out of a choke.

As for the rest of your post, I either agree somewhat, or I'm just too lazy to refute it. I'm not even going to bother with ratios at this point.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh no, Ganon dies to rollout for free if there isn't a platform if he somehow manages to avoid getting gimped. It's GOOD in this matchup because he has RCO lag that can be punished on reaction, and his aerials all have sucky landlag. So yeah matchup on FD is probably unwinnable for him. And I don't really care that he can Choke Jiggs out of it. It's not happening unless you do it wrong. You can bait it with the TURNAROUND and still punish the lag.

And I don't care that Jiggs only does so much damage for a throw. ROB's damage output is worse than Jiggs and his followups off tilts and throws suck, but that doesn't mean his ground game doesn't **** Ganon. The point is Ganon shouldn't just play the matchup expecting to constantly anti-air Jiggs for free (and honestly, he doesn't anti-air Jiggs very well). Jiggs has a ground game that Ganon actually has to respect since she has a lot of options for punishing him consistently while he has basically zero options for realistically walling her.

And Jiggs's D-tilt is not bad in this matchup either. Ganon doesn't actually have many answers to it, or more accurately the implied condition of Jiggs crouching. Something as simple as crossing over to crouching is really good against Ganon, if a very underused strategy.

 

[KillerJawz]

Uh no, Ganon dies to rollout for free if there isn't a platform if he somehow manages to avoid getting gimped.

...You have to be trolling.

It's GOOD in this matchup because he has RCO lag that can be punished on reaction, and his aerials all have sucky landlag.

Bair, dair, uair all cancel and can be immediatly followed up on afterwards.

So yeah matchup on FD is probably unwinnable for him. And I don't really care that he can Choke Jiggs out of it.

Just because theres a larger field for rollout?

It's not happening unless you do it wrong. You can bait it with the TURNAROUND and still punish the lag.

You can't be.....

And I don't care that Jiggs only does so much damage for a throw. ROB's damage output is worse than Jiggs

*Raises shotgun*

and his followups off tilts and throws suck

*Loads barrels*

but that doesn't mean his ground game doesn't **** Ganon. The point is Ganon shouldn't just play the matchup expecting to constantly anti-air Jiggs for free (and honestly, he doesn't anti-air Jiggs very well). Jiggs has a ground game that Ganon actually has to respect since she has a lot of options for punishing him consistently while he has basically zero options for realistically walling her.

*Fires*

And Jiggs's D-tilt is not bad in this matchup either.

........Oh dear Guthix.....

Spoiler

Stephen <3

.

Ganon doesn't actually have many answers to it, or more accurately the implied condition of Jiggs crouching. Something as simple as crossing over to crouching is really good against Ganon, if a very underused strategy.

Do you play Jiggs or Ganon?

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Jiggz only has a legitimate ground game if the user knows how to true pivot and cancel dashes. I've played A2ZOMG before and his opinion of jiggz ground game might have been reflected by my weird style with puff. Although rollout is really a gimmick move to begin with because its so easy to cancel or shieldgrab(stand backwards). D-tilt can be useful if you dash cancel it..but im the only puff who actually went out of his way to master movement ATs and such....most other puff mains will be be in the air 90% of the time. I just find that in matchups where there are no projectiles involved that its good to mix up ground and air games

 

[Z1GMA]

no way of killing her outside of random U-airs, F-airs, and DAs. You will never kill this character with D-air since you can't really land Flame Choke in this matchup.
We don't kill her with Random Uairs, since it is weak at the point when Jiggly has high damage.

True - We can't land a Gerudo on her, but we can Choke Out her aerials with a Aerudo
(If we are smart and choose the right moment)
Though, we must use aerudo VERY sparingly or Jiggly will see it comming.
Aerudo often leads to more damage in the hands of a skilled Ganon.

Dair doesn't work, that's true.
But If you land a Aerudo, you can always Techchase with it

Smashes are much too punishable in this matchup
Usmash isn't that bad, actually.
If Jiggly even thinks about Airdodging through it to get in close and personal,
then she has given us our AC Stomps back.
(Not saying Stomp will **** Jiggly everytime in this scenario. I think you know what I mean)

70/30 is a generous matchup ratio. In reality given how hopeless Ganondorf is with CPs in this matchup, I would have to now put the matchup closer to 80/20.
You do realize 20:80 is pretty much the same as Vs MK, right?

Rollout is very good in this matchup actually. If Ganon somehow manages to not immediately get gimped, he HAS to have a platform or he is guaranteed to die the moment he touches the ground.
No offense, A2, but if you get Rollout-***** everytime you try to get back on the stage as Ganon,
you really need to practice your 'Get back on stage-game'.

I have to really emphasize that this matchup by far is more frustrating and disadvantageous than Wario. You can sorta kill Wario in three hits. You can't do that against a competent Jiggs, while she kinda can do that to you.
Wario stays alive much longer than Jiggly (%-wise).
How can Jiggly kill us with "sorta" 3 hits?
I hope you're not thinking of WoP'ing.

...Oh, I almost forgot to mention Wario's Bite.
That attack alone makes a skilled Wario-player frustrating.
Also, a skilled Wario will keep an eye at the timer,
and then "Haft Waft"-KO us at like 70%

A2 & GeneralWoodman, I'd be happy to see vids of your Ganon Vs Jiggly-matches.
Can one of you upload a couple games?

..................

 

[Bahamut777]

My eyes bleed on the previous statements of A2Z and Woodman. T _____ T

 

[GeneralWoodman]

i played his mario not ganon :/...and i get why his statement was stupid, i was just stating my own opinion on why he thought her ground game was so good. (i guessed). I went even with RayKalm when we used to play a while back(we played very often back then), so i know this matchup pretty well too

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bair, dair, uair all cancel and can be immediatly followed up on afterwards.

lol I'm sorry but you lost all credibility after that statement. If Ganon just had to recover to the edge, and you try to autocancel an aerial like that, you'll get his recovery landing lag which is at minimum like 20ish frames.

Just because theres a larger field for rollout?

Okay let's put it this way. Ganon recovers to the edge on FD after somehow not getting gimped. He can be hit out of his ledgestand, ledgeroll, AND his getup attack (which is not fully invincible) by Rollout. So that leaves him ledgejumping, and the problem is everything he can do to get to the ground still has enough landing lag to be easily punished by rollout on reaction. The move actually works in this matchup. The fact it can work this well should be a statement to how badly Ganon gets controlled in this matchup. And as for Flame Choking Jiggs out of it, any person with a real sense of baiting isn't going to let that happen, and Flame choke is MASSIVELY unsafe on whiff.

Do you play Jiggs or Ganon?

I have one of the better Ganons on this board. And please don't tell me you know anything about these two characters, because you clearly don't. I expect intelligent matchup discussion, and all you're doing is being really silly and spouting nonsense that everyone knows isn't true after at least a year of it being common knowledge.

I believe I have logged in more of this matchup offline than most people on this board.

And for everyone who is trying to say that I was saying Jigg's ground game is good, please learn to read at an appropriate level. I never said anything like that. What I said is that Jigg's ground game works on Ganon, and probably is better for the sake of the matchup. Jiggs has a realistic grab and realistic ways of not getting totally ***** by reactionary spotdodge, and her range to punish a mistake on the ground is actually better than Ganons.

 

[KillerJawz]

lol I'm sorry but you lost all credibility after that statement. If Ganon just had to recover to the edge, and you try to autocancel an aerial like that, you'll get his recovery landing lag.

I stated which aerials AUTOCANCELED, I didn't say which ones he could do after he upb'd from the ledge. l2read. Also, you've never had any credibility, you are known by literally everyone for actually knowing NOTHING about this game.

Okay let's put it this way. Ganon recovers to the edge on FD after somehow not getting gimped. He can he hit out of his ledgestand, ledgeroll, AND his getup attack by Rollout. So that leaves him ledgejumping, and the problem is everything he can do to get to the ground still has enough landing lag to be easily punished by rollout on reaction. The move actually works in this matchup. The fact it can work this well should be a statement to how badly Ganon gets controlled in this matchup.

*kills self*

I have one of the better Ganons on this board. And please don't tell me you know anything about these two characters, because you clearly don't.

No, you don't. Now sit down, shut up or just leave. You are wasting time which could be used for discussion. Do note, that it was YOUR post that people laughed at, not mine.

Edit: Just noticed this as well. You are apparantly competant with Falcon and Bowser as well as Ganon and Mario? Your case isn't getting any stronger, next you'll be telling me you're competant with MK.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol man I suck with Metaknight. I put no time into this character since I feel like there isn't any point in it. I put my time into all the really obscure characters that people like you don't know anything about.

And good job trying to avoid the argument. In reality you look really silly for trying to shut down a point of mine with your own ego, while I'm trying to invoke actual discussion. If you think I know nothing about this game, it should be very very easy for you to counter my statements with good RELEVANT examples, which you have provided none of.

 

[KillerJawz]

lol man I suck with Metaknight. I put no time into this character since I feel like there isn't any point in it. I put my time into all the really obscure characters that people like you don't know anything about.

Well that's strange, because you just said that Aerial Klaw was easily avoidable in the Bowser thread. It also happens that after having a look around for some of your recent footage of these said characters, I couldn't find a trace.

And good job trying to avoid the argument. In reality you look really silly for trying to shut down a point of mine with your own ego, while I'm trying to invoke actual discussion. If you think I know nothing about this game, it should be very very easy for you to counter my statements with good RELEVANT examples, which you have provided none of.

I'm not the one being laughed at here, but seeing as you want some real examples here, I'll provide them. After of course, you have told me which Ganon/Jiggs mains you have played offline, Just so I know that I'll have an opponent worth continuing this arguement against, rather then pulling theorycraft heaven. Everything you've posted is FULL of theorycrafting, do you have like any offline experience at all?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well that's strange, because you just said that Aerial Klaw was easily avoidable in the Bowser thread. It also happens that after having a look around for some of your recent footage of these said characters, I couldn't find a trace.

Eh, the only footage of my Bowser is back in one of the old releases for Balanced Brawl actually. If you want to have a glimpse of my playstyle it's better to play me. Wifi or offline, either works. You can blame whatever happens to wifi johns, but it's significantly more productive and fun to try it out anyway.

I'm not the one being laughed at here, but seeing as you want some real examples here, I'll provide them. After of course, you have told me which Ganon/Jiggs mains you have played offline. Everything you've posted is FULL of theorycrafting, do you have like any offline experience at all?

You don't know who Crackle is. He's a tournament goer who is on the rise in CenCal at the moment. He is good with Snake, Falco, and Jiggs (and working on Marth at the moment). We've played this matchup quite a bit offline. I think I know what I'm talking about.

and lol I don't care if you don't think you're being laughed at. I demand you to show some level of intelligence.

 

[KillerJawz]

Eh, the only footage of my Bowser is back in one of the old releases for Balanced Brawl actually. If you want to have a glimpse of my playstyle it's better to play me. Wifi or offline, either works. You can blame whatever happens to wifi johns, but it's significantly more productive and fun to try it out anyway.

WAHAHAHHAHA, seriously? Old releases for balanced brawl... REALLY? Oh god my sides hurt. Wifi as well? OH TOO GOOD.

You don't know who Crackle is. He's a tournament goer who is on the rise in CenCal at the moment. He is good with Snake, Falco, and Jiggs (and working on Marth at the moment). We've played this matchup quite a bit offline. I think I know what I'm talking about.

Oh christ, that is too funny. A player who I've actually heard of would be better, not some guy who plays four different characters and is getting better.

Oh that was a good read, thank you A2Z. Anyway, I'm out of here, apologies for the disruption Kings of Evil, I'll be having a good lurk now, seeing where this discussion goes ^^.

 

[Xyro77]

Dont both ganon players and jiggs players agree its in jiggs favor? So what is the deal then?

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol Jawz, you still haven't actually contributed ANYTHING to the discussion. Everything you contributed is like 08 knowledge. Outdated and incorrect.

And the deal is that some people for whatever reason think Ganon doesn't get ***** in this matchup, when he actually does.

 

[Dumbfire]

Oh man I hate it when this happens.. Cant we just all be happy, dance in a circle and sing the duck song?

 

[the king of murder]

I don't have much Jiggs experience but I do believe her air game is a lot better than Ganon's. Try to bait her on the ground to have a better chance. Grabbing her requires a little bit of mindgame. Uair is the safest option against her. Like the others said use Stomp only if you know it is safe and that you can't be punished for it.

evil devil 35:65 marshmallow

 

[smashkng]

Ganon CAN jump onstage from a ledge drop, which reduces the landing lag to only 15 frames. However it is very difficult to master because it requires precise timing in that drop + jump and AD at the same time, but I think if you learn it you'll have it easier getting onstage after grabbing the ledge. But I don't see how Rollout does **** Ganon from being on the edge. That move sure is hard to punish but it is also really hard to land and Ganon could just come back to the ledge after ledge jumping if he did that and then try to get onstage after Rollout finished.

 

[Dumbfire]

And I dont expect anybody taking Jigglypuff to FD.
You can also Tipman wich gets you onstage lagless.

 

[Bahamut777]

Played this MU almost all day today.
Ganon
DOES
NOT
get ***** absurdly hard in this MU.

And I also find Shield DI VERY useful on this MU.
You can Grab Puff's Punch if you Shield DI towards her. Really.
You can ALSO grab BAir not perfectly spaced.
ALSO, if you can keep yourself on ground or on low air and REMEMBER THAT AIRDODGES PREVENTS GIMPING, you CAN, and WILL, win this MU.

BTW, Jiggz Rollout does NOT hit Ganon when he is on the edge, just hanging there. Even without invincibility frames. Tested today on multiple stages.
If Jiggz is charging Rollout, just waiting for you to come up, remember you're playing BRAWL, the GAYEST GAME IN THE HISTORY and just REMAIN THE **** WHERE YOU ARE!!! Rollout is USELESS in this MU. COMPLETELY USELESS!!
If Jiggz STILL launches one, GERUDO IT! And there you go. FREE KILL! THAT'S THE REASON WHY JIGGZ CAN'T RISK A ROLLOUT!!!

Also, if timed right, Aerudo outtakes Jiggz BAir game.

60:40 at most Jiggz favor.

 

[Noobicidal]

Finally, someone has a bit of ****ing sense.

Also, may I ask who the Puff player was? I'm just curious is all.