Match-Up Discussion #14! Fox

Fox​

Go ^_^

Super quick spammy projectile usmash reflector

Fox can be a very frustrating matchup for Marth if you dont space correctly. His main approach will consist of his dair which will lead to a utilt and possibly another dair, nair, or smash. After a few of these you can already be in ko range by his deadly up smash. With fox you should space with fairs and nairs or dtilts, stay in the air slightly to help avoid being grabbed. Fox also has his blaster which you can run right through each laser and continue spacing. Watch for his forward b however, it can suprise you and give Fox time to take control. Just stay at tipper range and you will be fine. Watch for his up smash, shield completely through his dair so you dont get hit with any of it. You can also use counter if it is predictable. Fox is very light and a untipped fsmash will even ko at decent percentages. For gimping simply fair him while offstage and grab the ledge, then you can fall and use another up b to abuse your invincibility and watch fox get ko'd.

What I want to know is if you can DS out of his Dair.

Also, for Fair, DI intermediate up and away from him. If you don't, that thing does insane damage.

Also his Phantasm has the most cooldown time out of all three spacies so you can usually just shield and punish, or if you're gutsy, jab it, chase it with a hyphen smash, or other various methods to punish.

Im pretty sure you cant up b his dair. Ive tried it before and it didnt work, but that doesnt mean its impossible. Maybe it depends on how square it hits.

I could totally picture that. Maybe just as he starts you have a slim chance.

I know VietG said Fox has the slowest cooldown time, which is cool, but does Fox's phantasm work like Falco's in terms of length and durability? If so, there is definitely a chance to spike or intercept him. Fox isn't hard to gimp if you're smart. If you can make it, Fair before he can make the move, he's open for a split second before he goes.

He can pull off mad combos. period. He can also slide Up B, which I am assuming is his most common way of killing you. I like Fox more because he can't do a chain down B, and after he throws it's kind of up in the air, like you actually have a lot more options than just up B. I'd agree with ZMT, keep tipper distance and air game = good.

As Neo said to me versus Full Metal, keep him outside your sword, near the tip. Zone him.

Also, in the side-B's start-up delay, I usually SHFF a Fair or Nair to punish when it comes toward me, especially if it goes low. I don't know how safe this is, but I used to do Dsmash to punish a really long time ago. It's a vertical kill move which is good against Fox, which is really light.

Also, yes, it's similar to Falco's. It might cover less distance horizontally though, not sure.

Fox's phantasm is the longest but the weakest I believe. I'm sure you can SDI the dair to the left or right and upB out although if you just shield it then UpB will hit regardless.

U-smash kills you, this is the move you have to watch out for especially since Marth is light. Will kill you at ridiculous %'s when fresh.

Can do chain f-throw>dair death combo. If you space correctly with fair you can pretty much **** him for the most part. In the air you ****, on the ground you always have the dtilt trap which he can't outrange except for his f-smash and ftilt probably.

Marth pretty much ***** because Fox is also easier to kill than most others which is generally one of the most common problems with Marth. Coupled with the fact that you could beat him pretty badly with just proper fair spacing, DB, and occasional DS out of shield would lead me to say 70-30 Marth tops and 65-35 Marth at the least.

Fox's phantasm is shorter then Falcos. However Fox has a longer up b that curves more.

Fox has slightly more lag after his phantasm then Falco.

It's Falco with no CG, slightly different pokes, worse jab combo, no real containment game, better running speed, better kill moves and a mediocre approach.

I would call it as 65/35 Marth's favor.

He really has nothing on Marth besides good kill moves and his laser which can help with damage racking, but nothing really beyond that.

Fox has no approaches against Marth. All he can do is laser spam...but Marth can usually get around that easily...jump and stuff.

Dair combos are nasty and usmash = epic so watch out for those. Good spacing destroys Fox.

I completely agree w/ EL, watch out for his Damage Racking with SHL spam and Dair, I've got used to this thanks to my brother being a Fox, your best bet is to get him off the stage as soon as possible for a gimp

*GASP*

i nao use fox! xD

so fox user will use this combo for sure
dair utilt utilt nair = crazy damage
di away instead of dolphin
good fox user wont spamm laser.marth's fair range ***** fox
gheb,, u jokin right?
he is ****ing fast. Dash A, D air. F air illusion(counter this **** :3)
watch out for shine spike >_>

F throw into f air combo

Joking? Why do you think so?

Desire said:

*GASP*

i nao use fox! xD

so fox user will use this combo for sure
dair utilt utilt nair = crazy damage
di away instead of dolphin
good fox user wont spamm laser.marth's fair range ***** fox
gheb,, u jokin right?
he is ****ing fast. Dash A, D air. F air illusion(counter this **** :3)
watch out for shine spike >_>

F throw into f air combo

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Fox's approaches suck.

Dash attack is easily shielded and punished.

His dair is his only mediocre one and even then you can usually see it coming, just shield > grab or shield > up b.

Illusion is also crap.

Greetings from fox boards ^_^. Mind if I pitch in my two cents?


I actually believe this matchup is even, 50-50 or 55-45 marth. For starters, Fox can force marth to approach with blaster spam, so even though fox's approaches are not spectacular, he really shouldn't need to use them much. The two biggest things that annoy me when Im facing marth are his fair and dancing swords. Fair is spammable and has high priority. I believe it goes through all of foxs aerials, forcing him to avoid it. Dancing swords is amazing, it comes out so fast, and is a guaranteed combo almost every time.

Besides blaster, I never seem to have to much trouble edge guarding marth, since his recovery is mainly vertical. As a fox player, I caution you guys; watch out for shine spikes. I've killed numerous marths by shining them while off the stage and grabbing the ledge. Their up b would hit me when I was still invulnerable, and they would fall to their deaths. As for edge guarding fox, fair,fair ,fair. Its such a pain in the behind for fox players. Marth's a middle weight I believe(correct if Im wrong I dont play marth at all), and he can get caught in foxs utilt combo. Fox can string a utilt chain out of many moves, dair, fair, dash attack, and rarely nair. Be wary of it. Another big tip: Dair is fox's big combo starter. At higher percents, dair to usmash is foxs most effective killer. If you trip from the dair(there is a high chance of tripping from it when your at higher percents), its impossible to escape the usmash. I believe you can tech the ground after the dair if you dont trip and get your shield up in time otherwise. Counter can be useful to stop combos as well.

1 more thing. I keep seeing people talk about foxs main apporach is dair. A smart fox player usually mixes it up between dair, nair, and fair. Fair and nair have much more priority than dair, and fair CAN AUTOCANCEL into a utilt if the timing is right. I never try to use the same apporach twice, if i even apporach at all .

Overview of Marths advantages in this matchup
Fair beats foxs aerials
ability to edge guard fox well
combo potential, especially with side b.
counter can stop some combo strings of foxs

Fox's advantages over marth
Projectile, and can force marth to approach
ability to edge guard marth well
abiltiy to combo well


Both characters got things going for them. Some of the closet games I have played were fox vs marth. As I said before, I believe its even 50-50, 55-45 marth.

How can Fox edgegurad Marth well? Laser has no knockback and everything else gets stopped by UpB...

Forcing Marth to approach...is not really an advantage in this matchup, considering Marth's approaches are amazing and Fox's defenses aren't that good.

And no, Fox does not edgeguard Marth well. Up B>Fox's edgeguards.

And even if you approach with other moves, I still just fair you out of them because not a single one of your moves goes through it.

Marth's offensive game>Fox's defensive game
Marth's defensive game>Fox's offensive game
Marth>Fox.

lol, you dont use blaster to edgeguard with fox....

anyway. Up does stop a lot of foxs things. However, fox can go out to the point where if marth uses up b he wont make the ledge. Shine and then illusion or firefox back, depending height. If marth is coming from high up, there is nothing fox can really do. But if marths coming down low, then fox can screw him up. Its all about timing really. If marth times his up recovery right, hes fine. But if fox times his shine right, he can gimp the recovery.

And about the fair. A lot of the cast has trouble with it. Its one of the higher priority moves out there, almost like the turtle, lucarios dair, and luigis nair.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

lol, you dont use blaster to edgeguard with fox....

anyway. Up does stop a lot of foxs things. However, fox can go out to the point where if marth uses up b he wont make the ledge. Shine and then illusion or firefox back, depending height. If marth is coming from high up, there is nothing fox can really do. But if marths coming down low, then fox can screw him up. Its all about timing really. If marth times his up recovery right, hes fine. But if fox times his shine right, he can gimp the recovery.

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Lol, if you tried to shine spike a Marth, he'd just fair you and possibly stage stage spike you... Either with the fair or the following Dolphin Slash... xD

There is just no way this is even or close to even.

Fox doesn't have the tools. He has some nice combos, good kill moves and his blaster.

That's it.

Marth's tools overall are far better.

Foxes approaches aren't good. They are average and vs Marth they get Fox ****ed up since he can't outrange Marth or deal with his zoning that well. Marth can stuff Fox so easily. And none of his approaches are safe on block with Marth. Fox attacks Marth's shield and he eats up b.

Even or close to even?

I think not.

Marth can literally zone Fox with fairs the ENTIRE game. Fox can do nothing about it...

60-40 Marth or worse.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

and fair CAN AUTOCANCEL into a utilt if the timing is right.

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fox's Fair doesn't auto cancel, did you mean nair.

also if marth trys to shield grab fox after a dair, I think he can shine to aviod it.

Hype said:

fox's Fair doesn't auto cancel, did you mean nair.

also if marth trys to shield grab fox after a dair, I think he can shine to aviod it.

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Dolphin Slash out of shield says "Hi"... =P

Hype said:

fox's Fair doesn't auto cancel, did you mean nair.

also if marth trys to shield grab fox after a dair, I think he can shine to aviod it.

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Um, I still think Dolphin slash will come out faster than the reflector, if not, marth still has other options.

Yes maybe reading previous posts would help b/c I clearly said that.

I'm also sick of this 60-40 bs. I mean come on every freakin matchup is 60-40. Screw 60-40, I'm saying 70-30. Marth has A LOT more going for him in this matchup than in others.

Marth still has his usual priority and range advantage vs Fox. Speed really isn't an issue as trying to pressure as Fox would get you ***** in this matchup. So then what? They start blaster camping. Projectiles are mainly used to limit an opponents options, however, Fox's lasers can only be used damage and hopefully get the opponent to approach.

Since Marth has no projectiles he will most likely approach. Now you can approach like a ****** and just dash or you can walk and have all options available. And be smart while walking you want to dodge as many lasers as you can while trying to be as safe as possible. Mix in some SH's and crouches while walking. I've also seen people PS the lasers while walking, which may seem that you are being too defensive. But its amazing how it can piss of the Fox player and save you some extra %.

From there when Marth approaches, and he will pretty much ****. I don't care how good the Fox may be, but if Marth spaces fair, dtilt, and ftilt correctly. Fox will lose most if not all confrontations. Anytime you get attacked while in the shield, you can pretty much DS and hit him excluding his smash attacks, and probably his bair.

You still have your f-throw > dair death combo. Still have the uair juggle (tricky because of his shine stall). Still have the dtilt trap. DB punishing. Also the problem that most Marth's have which is a reliable kill move is solved due to Fox's light weight.

So insane damaging capabilities + ease of kill = win for Marth.

Now then lets talk about one other aspect the edge guarding game. When edgeguarding Fox remember that if you knock him out of his second jump then you have his ***. If he illusions nair or fair (requires a little better timing) and hit him out of it. If he fire foxes...... do whatever, go for the spike, use fair, nair, just don't screw up.

Now when he still has his second jump watch out for his second jump + fair which gives him a huge vertical boost. This will only work in catching you off guard, because a fair easily hits him out of it. He can't really attempt to hit you if you go after him offstage because 1. It could mean instant death due to his fall speed and 2. You would beat him with your aerial.

When he is edge guarding you, he can't really go after you off stage without risk, because you would beat him with proper spacing. You want to save your second jump, because if you get shined just once without it, you are pretty much dead depending on your location. Also try to mix up the timing of your second jump. Most shine kills with Fox are when they time it right, so that they hit you as soon as you second jump. So mix up your fall speed and don't try to be obvious with your second jump. As always mixing things up is key.

So that is why Marth ***** 70-30.

Please point out anything I missed because I kinda still suck at this whole analyzing thing.

Nah, you're pretty good at it.

Also please be aware that any ratio be give can always be re-examined.

But yeah this is 65/35 or worse IMO.

Hype said:

fox's Fair doesn't auto cancel, did you mean nair.

also if marth trys to shield grab fox after a dair, I think he can shine to aviod it.

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yeah that too. shine is actually really bad to use out of dair, no matter who your fighting really..
utilt is the best move, even if you only hit them once.

BacklashMarth said:

Um, I still think Dolphin slash will come out faster than the reflector, if not, marth still has other options.

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The reflector comes out in 1 frame... Dolphin Slash comes out in.... however many frames... xD It doesn't matter anyway, since Marth is invincible the first couple frames of Dolphin slash out of his shield...

Reflector doesnt come out in 1 frame anymore, not like it matters when put up against the legendary broken and so awesome dolphin slash anyways. But just saying, its not one frame anymore.

Invicibility on frames 1 through 4 and hitbox on frame 5 is better than shine, even if it was frame 1, even though I think it's frame 2 or 3 now.

Uh, my crew member is one of the best Fox's around, so I have a really good grasp on this match-up. I'd like to agree 70-30 in Marth's favor.

Most of the match-up has actually been covered, and what hasn't is obvious, (like don't get hit by Bair, lol)

The one tip I did want to point out, is that if you are using Dancing Blade near the end of the stage, don't finish it. Fox falls so **** fast, that he'll fall below the last slice, and manage to jump back up and Fair you.

Anytime you can get Fox to have to recover from low, he's dead. Fair, Bair, Dair, Dancing Blade to Dolphin Slash, or just outright Dolphin Slash. All of these moves will gimp Fox. If Fox is Up Bing level with the stage, use Dancing Blade instead of Fair (also, if you're standing on the stage, and he tries to UpB, use Dancing Blade or Dtilt), Fair will cause knockback, and allow Fox to DI up, which will allow him to Illusion. Dancing Blade on the otherhand, will not really knock him back, but set him low. This resets the situation in midair, but lower, which is really bad for Fox. You can then follow up appropriately.

Also, with the appropriate DI, you can Dolphin Slash Fox out of his UpB, even after you've been hit by it.

Learning to space the edgeguard is probably the most pivotal part of this whole match-up. If Fox tries to illusion onto the stage, walking away to a free smash/move of your choice, or Perfect Shielding is a good idea. Generally, I like to stand halfway in between where Fox would land, and the ledge, and begin ledgeguarding if he goes there, or chase with a free Dancing Blade after Perfect Shield, if he tried to hit me coming onto the stage.

Also, I find Foxes also like to Usmash as you come off of a ledge. I often counter this attempt with Counter.

Steel2nd said:

Fox's approaches suck.

Dash attack is easily shielded and punished.

His dair is his only mediocre one and even then you can usually see it coming, just shield > grab or shield > up b.

Illusion is also crap.

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agree illu is old. but if u shield da dash, fox can pivot grab >_>

Desire said:

agree illu is old. but if u shield da dash, fox can pivot grab >_>

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The dash attack is rather easily telegraphed IIRC, and I don't think Fox can DAC, therefore he can't DAC a pivot grab either.

Desire, read what I asked you in my video thread.

oh my bad, didnt say DAC, i just said fox CAN pivot grab or simply grab

unless u perfect shield, shield = dumb

ps. dont think any fox user will just go charge in w dash A

Lol just throw a tennis ball off stage and when he goes to grab it spike him this should have been one of the last fox really only has about 4 ways to set-up combos/rack up damage and two of those ways are from the air and the other two are on the ground
He also doesn't have a great defensive game at all

Maverick_Ace said:

Lol just throw a tennis ball off stage and when he goes to grab it spike him this should have been one of the last fox really only has about 4 ways to set-up combos/rack up damage and two of those ways are from the air and the other two are on the ground
He also doesn't have a great defensive game at all

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What does the order matter? Any other character we do Marth surely has the advantage.

Have we talked about Donkey Kong?

Shaya said:

Have we talked about Donkey Kong?

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No.

But we could to add an even match-up or near even I guess.

Marth > DK

Steel2nd said:

Marth > DK

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Prove it.

And get monkey pics.