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Weekly Character Discussion: Yoshi
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
Yoshi still has his dark blue color, right? I'll try to get in some games as him and get back to you.
T-T i think we all wanted a boshi costume...
i really don't have any experience with or against yoshi - all i know is his recovery isn't really TOO big of an issue anymore and he's got a nice combo game with some good priority and speed...
i hear his grab release is just tooooooo good though
i really don't have any experience with or against yoshi - all i know is his recovery isn't really TOO big of an issue anymore and he's got a nice combo game with some good priority and speed...
i hear his grab release is just tooooooo good though
D
Deleted member
Guest
bair to nair go.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
throw eggs, if they come at you, run away into pivot tongue (Grab). CG to the edge vs MK, then up smash (I heard you can also fair???). Do this a lot. Oh ya, and Bair to Nair. That's pride's whole game basically.
D
Deleted member
Guest
to be fair, I think olimar beats him as smash poster child for abortion.
Okay, I just played with Scala's Yoshi for about an hour and a half of straight Brawling.
I'll type up my review later tonight.
I'll type up my review later tonight.
Ground Movement
Yoshi runs kinda slow.
Aerial Movement
Yoshi's got beautiful aerial maneuverability, and good aerials to go with it. More on this later.
Power
Yoshi's stuff is above average in sending power... they all KO reasonably well, and his usmash and uair seem especially strong. His fair is a powerful meteor, though it'll rarely hit anyone decent in the air. Yoshi's fsmash can cause pain, and has a sort of "Bowser fsmash" effect of leaning back before the hit. Too bad it's still slow.
Priority
Yoshi's bair is almost comparable to G&W's infamous turtle. His nair, as seems concurrent with all Mario characters, comes out fast, hits rather hard, and out-prioritizes a lot of things. It may be an illusion, though -- Marth's sword easily cuts through practically everything Yoshi's got. In fact, Yoshi's priority may just be his attacks' relatively quick startup time.
Attack Speed
Yoshi's Up+B, usmash, fsmash and fair are slow. The rest of them come out pretty quick. Yoshi's jabs out of shield can stop almost everything and the second hit has enough knockback to end the up-close confrontation right there. The bair is spammable for a wall/zoning game. If you don't air-dodge a little early, you'll probably eat a uair in the face. Basically, Yoshi's full of anti-reversal and out-of-shield reversal attacks. It's not ridiculous like Marth's Dolphin Slash, but it's still pretty useful.
Follow-ups
Yoshi's got a pretty scary follow-up game. His bair autocancels, allowing him to combo into a tilt or even a smash attack. His aerial mobility lets him chase you for juggle pressure pretty easily. Yoshi's also got some grab release combos on several characters, including Meta Knight. And that uair of his... The only problem is that his options to begin a setup/juggle game are limited (bair and grab). If you can evade those two approaches then Yoshi's pretty much stuck to trying to get in a few random single hits. Oh, but he does have a limited ground followup game with that painful dair of his. Too bad it's punishable from shield.
Defense
Yoshi's egg shield can't be poked, at the cost of being unable to jump from it. All of his out-of-shield options come out quickly, but have very punishable lag if predicted and shielded. The Egg Toss can deal some decent damage and cover a whole variety of areas, but there's a very notice startup and ending lag which restricts when Yoshi can safely use the attack.
Recovery
Yoshi is gimpable, but it's more dependent on the Yoshi player's mistake than your success. His heavy-armored second jump can withstand a lot of things, and his Up+B can save him from what would normally be a close gimp. Since Yoshi no longer DJCs, you can perform a rising aerial on recovery to cover yourself, but you're putting yourself at MUCH greater risk because it costs you your heavy armor. Yoshi also gets screwed by stupid stage ledges like Lylat Cruise and Pokémon Stadium 1.
Conclusion
Yoshi looks terrible at first, seems amazing on a second look, then just looks kinda mediocre again once you really pay attention. Sure, anyone unfamiliar with the matchup is in for a world of pain, but you can really say the same for a whole bunch of characters. Yoshi's got some great things going as long as he has the positional advantage, but his options for CAUSING that advantage are stupidly low. He attacks quick enough to punish various attacks, but if Yoshi falls into a feint then such attacks are easily punished from shield. He can recover pretty good distances and protect himself with the armor jump, but that comes at the price of being unable to retaliate with an aerial lest he get punished and be left with the small jump from the Egg Toss. Eh, basically it feels like you're just going to be hopping around and coming in with a bair or two, maybe some pivot grabs and Egg Tosses, because nothing else actually leads into anything good.
Yoshi runs kinda slow.
Aerial Movement
Yoshi's got beautiful aerial maneuverability, and good aerials to go with it. More on this later.
Power
Yoshi's stuff is above average in sending power... they all KO reasonably well, and his usmash and uair seem especially strong. His fair is a powerful meteor, though it'll rarely hit anyone decent in the air. Yoshi's fsmash can cause pain, and has a sort of "Bowser fsmash" effect of leaning back before the hit. Too bad it's still slow.
Priority
Yoshi's bair is almost comparable to G&W's infamous turtle. His nair, as seems concurrent with all Mario characters, comes out fast, hits rather hard, and out-prioritizes a lot of things. It may be an illusion, though -- Marth's sword easily cuts through practically everything Yoshi's got. In fact, Yoshi's priority may just be his attacks' relatively quick startup time.
Attack Speed
Yoshi's Up+B, usmash, fsmash and fair are slow. The rest of them come out pretty quick. Yoshi's jabs out of shield can stop almost everything and the second hit has enough knockback to end the up-close confrontation right there. The bair is spammable for a wall/zoning game. If you don't air-dodge a little early, you'll probably eat a uair in the face. Basically, Yoshi's full of anti-reversal and out-of-shield reversal attacks. It's not ridiculous like Marth's Dolphin Slash, but it's still pretty useful.
Follow-ups
Yoshi's got a pretty scary follow-up game. His bair autocancels, allowing him to combo into a tilt or even a smash attack. His aerial mobility lets him chase you for juggle pressure pretty easily. Yoshi's also got some grab release combos on several characters, including Meta Knight. And that uair of his... The only problem is that his options to begin a setup/juggle game are limited (bair and grab). If you can evade those two approaches then Yoshi's pretty much stuck to trying to get in a few random single hits. Oh, but he does have a limited ground followup game with that painful dair of his. Too bad it's punishable from shield.
Defense
Yoshi's egg shield can't be poked, at the cost of being unable to jump from it. All of his out-of-shield options come out quickly, but have very punishable lag if predicted and shielded. The Egg Toss can deal some decent damage and cover a whole variety of areas, but there's a very notice startup and ending lag which restricts when Yoshi can safely use the attack.
Recovery
Yoshi is gimpable, but it's more dependent on the Yoshi player's mistake than your success. His heavy-armored second jump can withstand a lot of things, and his Up+B can save him from what would normally be a close gimp. Since Yoshi no longer DJCs, you can perform a rising aerial on recovery to cover yourself, but you're putting yourself at MUCH greater risk because it costs you your heavy armor. Yoshi also gets screwed by stupid stage ledges like Lylat Cruise and Pokémon Stadium 1.
Conclusion
Yoshi looks terrible at first, seems amazing on a second look, then just looks kinda mediocre again once you really pay attention. Sure, anyone unfamiliar with the matchup is in for a world of pain, but you can really say the same for a whole bunch of characters. Yoshi's got some great things going as long as he has the positional advantage, but his options for CAUSING that advantage are stupidly low. He attacks quick enough to punish various attacks, but if Yoshi falls into a feint then such attacks are easily punished from shield. He can recover pretty good distances and protect himself with the armor jump, but that comes at the price of being unable to retaliate with an aerial lest he get punished and be left with the small jump from the Egg Toss. Eh, basically it feels like you're just going to be hopping around and coming in with a bair or two, maybe some pivot grabs and Egg Tosses, because nothing else actually leads into anything good.
quote of the year - i'm so sick of randoms jumping on the "yoshi is ACTUALLY absolutely amazing!" bandwaggon lol
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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That is by far the best and most accurate summary I've ever seen about Yoshi.
Kyari
Smash Lord
I've toyed with Yoshi, and he seems to do really bad against Falco. Like... every strength that Yoshi has, Falco eliminates. Any approach that works for him...... doesn't work against Falco. With that said, some specifics... it seems like if I throw my egg at someone falling down and the egg is air dodged, I get a free usmash, which can be pretty terrifying if at high enough percent. Yoshi's pivot grab is also really good, an integral part of his game, but you'll never get a pivot grab on Snake... 
Yoshi's probably better than where he is on Ankoku's list, maybe even better than where he is on the SBR list, but I don't see him ever going beyond mid.
Yoshi's probably better than where he is on Ankoku's list, maybe even better than where he is on the SBR list, but I don't see him ever going beyond mid.
Overswarm
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Ankoku, I am using htat line in my summary. That sums it up perfectly.
Also, is anyone else disappointed in how his tilts are? I can't use his d-tilt or f-tilt as pokes in Brawl at all! I guess I got spoiled by ROB's f-tilt, but still.
Also, is anyone else disappointed in how his tilts are? I can't use his d-tilt or f-tilt as pokes in Brawl at all! I guess I got spoiled by ROB's f-tilt, but still.
Can Yoshi crawl under Falco's reflector like Diddy can?
Overswarm
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I don't think it would be applicable even if he could; Falco has no reason to reflect Yoshi as his only projectile is the egg... which wouldn't be used that close.
SHIELD pokes, or OOS attack pokes? For the latter, use dsmash or jabs. For the former.... yeah.
I suppose it could be "almost" comparable if it had any priority that's worthwhile. It does lead into some pretty good stuff if it hits, but it doesn't beat out a whole lot. It does stay out a long time and auto-cancels, so you don't have to time it at all.
Along with nair if the bair hits (and the opponent doesn't DI well or is really fat) you can do an uair to a dj. uair or maybe you can land and then immediately jump and do another uair to a dj. uair. Of course this all depends on percentages and whatnot, but it is really pretty to look at sometimes.
Yoshi was the first character I played. I tried so hard to make him worthwhile but after a while people just abuse his heavy weaknesses. Would it kill the programmers to let him do something out of his shield? Give him a normal grab so at least he can punish with block-throw. He's already got the neutral-B for "tongue-grab" theme.
But on the other hand he can be a real powerhouse in teams. It's a lot easier to get those bairs in when your partner is causing havok too. His eggs are excellent annoyers in teams because you can throw them over your partner's head. He still has good killing power, has good moves to clear people out on both sides, and can rack up damage too. And now he's actually pretty hard to kill.
Just make sure you have a partner that can get people off of you if you need help.
Overswarm
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Synopsis:
At first look he's awful, then he's great, and then he's just mediocre.
Yoshi has a few things in several matchups that make him not worthless. He has a few strengths that can REALLY surprise you. How many people have played against a Yoshi only to find themselves take an easy 40% from them spamming eggs? How many have been pivot grabbed by a Yoshi when they dashed to prevent them from throwing eggs? How many have been killed by a uair at surprisingly low %?
Unfortunately for Yoshi, these strengths don't make up for his weaknesses. His shield is ridiculously bad; while it can't be shield poked... you can just wait the moment Yoshi shields and then capitalize. Yoshi's recovery, while good as far as distance is concerned, can be less than adequate; turning off tap jump and using eggs first slightly alleviates this problem, but Yoshi is one of those characters that ends up getting tossed off the side of the stage a lot.
One of Yoshi's biggest issues is that there is rarely a time where he is at an advantage. On the ground? In the air? Recovering? Edgeguarding? He is just sub-par in all these areas when the opponent is on equal footing.
Yoshi will be a great surprise character and a smart player can get some early KOs with him to make him viable... but on the whole, he won't be too amazing.
At first look he's awful, then he's great, and then he's just mediocre.
Yoshi has a few things in several matchups that make him not worthless. He has a few strengths that can REALLY surprise you. How many people have played against a Yoshi only to find themselves take an easy 40% from them spamming eggs? How many have been pivot grabbed by a Yoshi when they dashed to prevent them from throwing eggs? How many have been killed by a uair at surprisingly low %?
Unfortunately for Yoshi, these strengths don't make up for his weaknesses. His shield is ridiculously bad; while it can't be shield poked... you can just wait the moment Yoshi shields and then capitalize. Yoshi's recovery, while good as far as distance is concerned, can be less than adequate; turning off tap jump and using eggs first slightly alleviates this problem, but Yoshi is one of those characters that ends up getting tossed off the side of the stage a lot.
One of Yoshi's biggest issues is that there is rarely a time where he is at an advantage. On the ground? In the air? Recovering? Edgeguarding? He is just sub-par in all these areas when the opponent is on equal footing.
Yoshi will be a great surprise character and a smart player can get some early KOs with him to make him viable... but on the whole, he won't be too amazing.
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
Been wondering when this might be posted, and might I add that I'm not surprised about the relatively short span of discussion. =P
I'll read all of this and post my two cents once I get home.
P.S. Personal quick synopsis response:
1. Terrible
2. Great
3. Mediocre
.
.
.
4. Then spend 6 months on him, make it past the point of accepting that you'll never win $30,000 on a tournament with Yoshi, and eventually it unlocks a certain niche that even pro smashers will be surprised to find. I will put Yoshi above middle tier, and I'll explain why later.
I'll read all of this and post my two cents once I get home.
P.S. Personal quick synopsis response:
1. Terrible
2. Great
3. Mediocre
.
.
.
4. Then spend 6 months on him, make it past the point of accepting that you'll never win $30,000 on a tournament with Yoshi, and eventually it unlocks a certain niche that even pro smashers will be surprised to find. I will put Yoshi above middle tier, and I'll explain why later.
bigman40
Smash Master
Good discussion (even if it was small) guys. I don't have the time to read everything now. I might edit this again when I do.
I really liked how you acknowledged the fact that Yoshi isn't always in an advantageous position (unless you're Squirtle or Wario).
Also, to expand on the MK matchup before Mmac gets here, pivot grabs and usmash tend to shut down MK's approaches, and each one can be followed up with more attacks... although once the MK understands what you're doing, he'll start baiting a usmash and punishing. Basically, it's an uphill battle for MK at first and then it's slightly in his favor from then on once he figures out how Yoshi works.
You may be underestimating Yoshi's recovery somewhat, but it's unique in that it only gets gimped when the player screws up, not when the opponent beats you. I've found that eggs to boost you toward the stage, then airdodging during your second jump to pass the opponent usually works. Yoshi's second jump basically works like a better version of Lucario's Extremespeed: it offers invincibility frames as it moves forward. The only things that make it different are that you can attack after it's finished, you don't get it back if you're knocked out of it, and it isn't as slow.
Anyway, pretty good analysis, and although I would have liked to see more discussion, I knew there wasn't really going to be much.
Also, to expand on the MK matchup before Mmac gets here, pivot grabs and usmash tend to shut down MK's approaches, and each one can be followed up with more attacks... although once the MK understands what you're doing, he'll start baiting a usmash and punishing. Basically, it's an uphill battle for MK at first and then it's slightly in his favor from then on once he figures out how Yoshi works.
You may be underestimating Yoshi's recovery somewhat, but it's unique in that it only gets gimped when the player screws up, not when the opponent beats you. I've found that eggs to boost you toward the stage, then airdodging during your second jump to pass the opponent usually works. Yoshi's second jump basically works like a better version of Lucario's Extremespeed: it offers invincibility frames as it moves forward. The only things that make it different are that you can attack after it's finished, you don't get it back if you're knocked out of it, and it isn't as slow.
Anyway, pretty good analysis, and although I would have liked to see more discussion, I knew there wasn't really going to be much.
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
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I like footstooling CPU Yoshi's in my spare time and watch as they tumble to their doom
:3
:3
On my phonevso this will be short and sweet. Yoshi is highly underrated by but many Yoshi mains is he held to highly. But Yoshi has a sort of zone in which he falls in there. And after he goes back to mediocre you be hunches after examining him beyond the normal. This is that way I found the DT, but still have had no tell to further my Yoshi metagame research. But as far as I have divulged into it I never cease I find new things. Which keeps me playing Yoshi. I like mastering the techs and yoshi is the only one to keep me busy with techs so far. I'll post more soon.
Drakkhonian
Smash Rookie
I really like when you guys say toshi is not always on advantage, but I dont think I can agree to the fact that hes "mediocre" when you look at it. I think you would say hes not THAT much good when you really look down upon it, but saying hes mediocre is underrating. I saw plenty of videos that shows good yoshis and them beating almost all of the characters. I guess what Im trying to say is:
Yoshi is bad at first look, awesome at second look to get to just normal at the third look.
I love maining yoshi cause even with his huge weakness some people can still win with him.(IMHO)
Yoshi is bad at first look, awesome at second look to get to just normal at the third look.
I love maining yoshi cause even with his huge weakness some people can still win with him.(IMHO)
While he may not be perfect, and obviously not a choice for n00b smashers, he has hidden potential that many people will be surprised to find that he has. Yoshi is amazing, I can give you that. Sure, like every other character except Metaknight.. (overrated) >_>... he has disadvantages, but from my opinion, if you know how to use the Egg-Throw technique to recover, and the uair and fair and even the nair, when the time is right, along with the amazing CG that he has, you can consider yourself a mighty opponent..
Only catch is, you have to be GOOD at Brawl, or it will all account for nothing... >_>
Only catch is, you have to be GOOD at Brawl, or it will all account for nothing... >_>
Mmac
Smash Lord
I think mediocre = average = normal, which I do agree with, for now.
I didn't however like Ankoku's review alittle bit. Isn't Yoshi like the 7th Fastest Character in the game? Also you forgot Pivot Grabs in his defencive options, which is like one of the best grabs in the game, and it really covers his crappy shield very well
One thing I didn't get in the summery is that in this thread, the conclusion was that Yoshi can really only be gimped if he screws up, but on the summery, it written like it's linear and easy to intercept. The fact that it's listed as a "major weakness" that glares above his strength like blanket of........ uh... terribleness, makes me believe so.
I also find his versatility an advantage actually.
I didn't however like Ankoku's review alittle bit. Isn't Yoshi like the 7th Fastest Character in the game? Also you forgot Pivot Grabs in his defencive options, which is like one of the best grabs in the game, and it really covers his crappy shield very well
One thing I didn't get in the summery is that in this thread, the conclusion was that Yoshi can really only be gimped if he screws up, but on the summery, it written like it's linear and easy to intercept. The fact that it's listed as a "major weakness" that glares above his strength like blanket of........ uh... terribleness, makes me believe so.
I also find his versatility an advantage actually.
Overswarm
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Yoshi's recovery options both go in the same direction; if you position yourself correctly, Yoshi can't do anything to prevent himself from being hit, so he can be gimped fairly easily.
This can be prevented at medium to higher % though, so really the only worry is attempting to second jump at lower % and getting knocked out of it.
This can be prevented at medium to higher % though, so really the only worry is attempting to second jump at lower % and getting knocked out of it.
Whose overswarm? Anywayz yoshi doesn't even flinch during his Dj at low percentages. That kind of mentality is just going to get you Nair'd, Uair'd, or even spiked in the face trying to kill a recovering Yoshi. For one Yoshi is INCREDIBLY hard to spike since he does NOT have to attempt to recover immediately. Second Yoshi covers probably more distance than any character without a "flight" recovery with just his DJ alone, and since you can no longer lose momentum air dodging, its AMAZINGLY easy to "glide dodge" past intercepting opponents. last even IF yoshi somehow manages to get knocked out of his DJ, he falls fairly slow anyway. I can simply just fall close to the stage and throw an egg, and if that fails I'll gimp back with a egg lay. Yoshi IS NOT THE SAME DEFENSELESS RECOVERING FOOL HE WAS IN MELEE!!! hell, i can take a fight off away from the arena anytime. so i have NO clue what you mean when you say yoshi is easy to gimp, cuz thats straight crap.
ArowYoshi
Smash Apprentice
yeah i kinda agree with the "normal" statement, i take mediocre as normal and i realize that Yoshi isnt top tier material, however he can still last a good fight against high teir people and im alright with that.
Mmac
Smash Lord
You're also forgetting that Yoshi can airdodge also, during his double jump. I'm actually really disappointed that this wasn't mentioned anywhere in the discussion, except maybe indirectly from Gimpyfish's "Yoshi's recovery isn't really an issue" response.
Even with correct positioning, it's still hard to hit because Yoshi can airdodge at any given time. Makes edge camping hard to do, and Aerial Intercepting very hard for most characters. Interesting Note, Yoshi can cancel his Double Jump with an Egg Toss or his DownB, and Sweetspot the ledge.
Even with correct positioning, it's still hard to hit because Yoshi can airdodge at any given time. Makes edge camping hard to do, and Aerial Intercepting very hard for most characters. Interesting Note, Yoshi can cancel his Double Jump with an Egg Toss or his DownB, and Sweetspot the ledge.
Sharky
Smash Master
This review I am satisfied with. I'm content with living in mediocrity. =P
Going to the recovery argument, sure Yoshi can airdodge the double jump, but isn't a major juggling strategy knowing when the opponent is going to airdodge and punish them when they do? It's all a matter of how well the opponent knows your playstyle, so in that way I definitely agree with the BRoomers. Too bad the grab releases couldn't be discussed more, however. The boards need a Yoshi in the SBR.
Speaking of that, where the hell did Bringer go?!? He hasn't been in the forums for ages!!! >_<
Going to the recovery argument, sure Yoshi can airdodge the double jump, but isn't a major juggling strategy knowing when the opponent is going to airdodge and punish them when they do? It's all a matter of how well the opponent knows your playstyle, so in that way I definitely agree with the BRoomers. Too bad the grab releases couldn't be discussed more, however. The boards need a Yoshi in the SBR.
Speaking of that, where the hell did Bringer go?!? He hasn't been in the forums for ages!!! >_<
YoshiBomb
Smash Apprentice
I enjoyed the read though it does still seem that most of the BR posters have little xp playing against Yoshi but still I think it was a good enough review.
Ps if any of you want to play a Yoshi even though I may or may not get beat idk how good most of ya other then overswarm since he knocked me out of the smash boards tourny, hit me up
Ps if any of you want to play a Yoshi even though I may or may not get beat idk how good most of ya other then overswarm since he knocked me out of the smash boards tourny, hit me up
SOVAman
Smash Hero
WUT??? lol
Mmac
Smash Lord
You got to remember that Aerial Interception is the most common Edgeguard in the game. Yoshi has the fastest aerial movement in the game, so most opponents usually only have one chance to intercept. He can also handle Projectile Edgeguarding and Ledge Camping also just fine. I think it's a good summery too even though they didn't really highlight Yoshi's more important aspects like his Grab Release Combos, more into his Pivot Grab, or the DR, but I think the wrong impression on his recovery will give people a unnecessary bad impression to our character, and I don't think it's really fair at all for us.
I accept Yoshi's Weaknesses (shield Crap, NEED MOAR POAWER!!! >_<), but his recover is not one of those glaring weaknesses
I don't even know who he is O_o
Overswarm
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When we played online, the most common times I was able to hit you with immunity was when you were recovering; with ROB I was able to get a few KOs in this manner at medium %. Yoshi's recovery is not as good as a Yoshi main would like it to be.
Well, not exactly there OS. People all go mad gay on trying to footstool Yoshi, yeah it might work on those nooby ones who don't know what to do but there are many options of things you can do. First of all being Uair, it has always kept me from being footstooled or spiked, except once when I initiated it to early. I'll have to admit DJing is kind stupid at low percentages unless you have an attack, such as TL's Dsmash, which at 20% sends your *** of the stage. But you can recover with a bair and beat them to the punch. Also RAELing them, which I've only done a few times, has worked pretty nice for me. Then you have the option of low recovered dair, which may not hit but gets them off your *** while you recover. Then we get into the mindgames, which an experienced Yoshi knows how to dish out. If you have tap off, spam those eggs off stage, DJ, and put your nair to their face. Which can be followed up very easily at mid %'s. More to come, on my phone again.
Bringer's pretty ****ing insane...how do you not know of him?