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Weekly Character Discussion: Bowser
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Bowser isn't bad by any means, but he has a lot of bad matchups. He seems to do really well against a lot of the same characters Ganon does well against (and probably more).
I'm insane to begin with!
Bowser's bad.
Bowser's bad.
He seems underrated, but at the same time he's not THAT good. He's heavy, pretty strong, his up+B still does lots of damage and he has the suicide claw thing going for him. He's also kinda slow and predictable and I've yet to see someone do well with him. Definitely better than he was in Melee, but not quite up there.
prove it!
10char
10char
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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*Look's over at CF
Bowser is made of win.
Bowser is made of win.
Kel
Smash Master
Bowser has some of the best grab releases in the game.
Bowser doesn't die until a million damage.
Bowser has a one hit KO (Over B).
Flame breath can do around 40% to people that don't DI out right away.
Bowser is good. Watch videos of Kishsquared and Sliq to see.
Bowser doesn't die until a million damage.
Bowser has a one hit KO (Over B).
Flame breath can do around 40% to people that don't DI out right away.
Bowser is good. Watch videos of Kishsquared and Sliq to see.
Arash
Smash Lord
maybe i spent too much time w/ melee, but i much prefer melee bowser to brawl bowser. at least melee bowser could stand up to the rest of the cast (bar shiek). brawl bowser seriously cannot fight MK, snake, robot, diddy, falco, wolf, pit, squirtle, pikachu... the list goes on. unless there's some super-awesome bowser technique that i haven't seen yet, then no.
as far as the character goes, it feels at first like they buffed up his attacks, but it doesn't compensate for the fact that everyone lives forever in this game. suicide klaw is stupid vs. anyone who knows to DI against it, fortress feels laggier, L-cancelling is gone and so is his air game. please tell me why he should be any higher than low, i'm not seeing it
as far as the character goes, it feels at first like they buffed up his attacks, but it doesn't compensate for the fact that everyone lives forever in this game. suicide klaw is stupid vs. anyone who knows to DI against it, fortress feels laggier, L-cancelling is gone and so is his air game. please tell me why he should be any higher than low, i'm not seeing it
imo he's worse than his melee version.
klaw rarely kills now.
gimp kills are even rarer.
up-b a one hit kill? most of the stages have vertical kill zones that are too high for that - it's weaker too.
his cool edgeguards (which made him playable) in melee are all gone.
downsmash isn't as easily caught into and can be interrupted.
f-smash much weaker.
and whilst most characters have upgraded recoveries, his still sucks.
klaw rarely kills now.
gimp kills are even rarer.
up-b a one hit kill? most of the stages have vertical kill zones that are too high for that - it's weaker too.
his cool edgeguards (which made him playable) in melee are all gone.
downsmash isn't as easily caught into and can be interrupted.
f-smash much weaker.
and whilst most characters have upgraded recoveries, his still sucks.
Looking at these list of reasons, it seems to me Bowser is only good when your opponent isn't experienced with him; I feel like he was like this in Melee - once you know what to do, the Bowser user can do very little. Over B can be DI'd really easily if you're always ready for it. FIre Breath can be easily smash DI's out of for very low percentage. His grab releases don't work because you can mash jump and the control stick rather than attack buttons, always breaking out of his grabs through the air. I tried seriously using Bowser and it was effective at first, but once people caught on to his tricks he became low tier again =/ I think he is slightly better than he used to be because Brawl's physics don't allow for anyone to combo and destroy him like Melee's physics allowed, so his weight and size aren't nearly as much of a detriment to him now as they used to be.
Nope, it doesn't matter what your opponent is pressing. If you grab someone, and hit them with a grab attack as they break out then they will always break out on the ground. If you are not hitting them when they break out, they will almost always jumpbreak.
Overswarm
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Holding up guarantees a jump break unless tehy are hit during breakout.
Also, Bowser can still capitalize off of a jump break.
Bowser isn't super amazing top tier material, but he's a candidate for high tier. Bowser is not easy to use, but once you can use him he has a lot of options. Whichever move he hasn't been using for damage is his kill move, and all of his tilts have great range and priority. His smashes, while slow, are powerful, large, and his f-smash still has evasive properties. A good Bowser player will be able to punish an opponent with his tilts on a frequent basis and be able to throw out a smash attack if he calls his opponent on something in the match.
His over-b shouldn't get any suicide kills unless the Bowser is a full fresh stock ahead, but it does do about 20% and can kill easily on stages like Battlefield due to the top platform sending them off the top earlier. Stages like Pipes also make his over-b an early kill move, since you almost inevitably land on the blocks or high up on the hill.
His out of shield options are great, though mostly eclipsed by his up+b since it generally his best option. His grab release options include chain grabs and grab release to f-tilt or d-tilt. When I play Bowser, I generally aim at getting my opponent to about 110% and then am able to kill him with a fresh tilt out of a grab release if their character is on the lighter side.
Bowser's u-air is probably his biggest game maker overall. It's not as easy to land as Bowser mains would like, but if you get hit into the air and Bowser calls an air dodge... you're dead as early as 60%.
His jab is pretty good too.
Also, Bowser can still capitalize off of a jump break.
Bowser isn't super amazing top tier material, but he's a candidate for high tier. Bowser is not easy to use, but once you can use him he has a lot of options. Whichever move he hasn't been using for damage is his kill move, and all of his tilts have great range and priority. His smashes, while slow, are powerful, large, and his f-smash still has evasive properties. A good Bowser player will be able to punish an opponent with his tilts on a frequent basis and be able to throw out a smash attack if he calls his opponent on something in the match.
His over-b shouldn't get any suicide kills unless the Bowser is a full fresh stock ahead, but it does do about 20% and can kill easily on stages like Battlefield due to the top platform sending them off the top earlier. Stages like Pipes also make his over-b an early kill move, since you almost inevitably land on the blocks or high up on the hill.
His out of shield options are great, though mostly eclipsed by his up+b since it generally his best option. His grab release options include chain grabs and grab release to f-tilt or d-tilt. When I play Bowser, I generally aim at getting my opponent to about 110% and then am able to kill him with a fresh tilt out of a grab release if their character is on the lighter side.
Bowser's u-air is probably his biggest game maker overall. It's not as easy to land as Bowser mains would like, but if you get hit into the air and Bowser calls an air dodge... you're dead as early as 60%.
His jab is pretty good too.
Holding up does NOT guarantee a jump break.
The only thing that guarantees a jump break is not breaking out during a pummel animation or being a character tall enough that your feet are touching the ground during the grab. I've done lots of testing on this; up, down, whatever, it doesn't affect whether you jump out or not.
The only thing that guarantees a jump break is not breaking out during a pummel animation or being a character tall enough that your feet are touching the ground during the grab. I've done lots of testing on this; up, down, whatever, it doesn't affect whether you jump out or not.
Arash
Smash Lord
lol bowser's uair was never easy to land in melee, you'd basically have to predict 2 seconds in advance where they were gonna be
This, I have also done a lot of testing >_>.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
I love bowser. I played him a lot in melee, and I play him a lot now. He's way, way better in Brawl. But he plays completely differently. (I think, btw, this is a problem facing a lot of melee players when evaluating how good characters are in the new game that were in melee)
anyway, I just over B constantly. I mean, non-stop. I bounce with it, I grab with it, and I suicide kill with it (if you're lower percent at the end...it's an instant KO. and it never takes it to sudden death with me. maybe this has to do with playing first player all the time? I don't know)
his back air is great for hitting people jumping up from the edge, and it kills really well. surprisingly, his down B is a lot better. if you use it right. you can get off surprise hits when you're above the screen, and it kills a lot better in this game (and goes way faster than in melee)
but seriously, over B. I will probably land it somewhere around 25 times in a match. if you're bouncing a lot with it, then you'll land hits that you didn't even mean to land. not to mention, on some characters, if they don't DI correctly, you can chain them together. fun.
he is, by no means, a top tier character. but he's at least mid-tier or higher. definitely not worse than bowser in melee.
anyway, I just over B constantly. I mean, non-stop. I bounce with it, I grab with it, and I suicide kill with it (if you're lower percent at the end...it's an instant KO. and it never takes it to sudden death with me. maybe this has to do with playing first player all the time? I don't know)
his back air is great for hitting people jumping up from the edge, and it kills really well. surprisingly, his down B is a lot better. if you use it right. you can get off surprise hits when you're above the screen, and it kills a lot better in this game (and goes way faster than in melee)
but seriously, over B. I will probably land it somewhere around 25 times in a match. if you're bouncing a lot with it, then you'll land hits that you didn't even mean to land. not to mention, on some characters, if they don't DI correctly, you can chain them together. fun.
he is, by no means, a top tier character. but he's at least mid-tier or higher. definitely not worse than bowser in melee.
I'm wondering why your opponent wouldn't just pelt you with projectiles if you were constantly DJ Klawing.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
I auto-reflect projectiles.
besides, lots of things don't work against campers. that's why people camp, no? it doesn't mean the move is completely discredited.
besides, lots of things don't work against campers. that's why people camp, no? it doesn't mean the move is completely discredited.
It's true though, Jeff probably lands the claw at least 10 times a match, if not more, and he only uses it to change things up.
Bowser shrugs off projectiles. He survives to over 150% almost every stock.
Bowser shrugs off projectiles. He survives to over 150% almost every stock.
KishSquared
Smash Master
His jab is amazing and essential to his gameplay.
It's true
All the time I'm like IMMA GET DAT BOWSA
then he jabs and i'm like WAT
jab and ftilt
All the time I'm like IMMA GET DAT BOWSA
then he jabs and i'm like WAT
jab and ftilt
That forward tilt is crazy. It's gigantic. Remember how short it was in Melee?
KishSquared
Smash Master
It looks like I've kick started a serious discussion about the awesomeness of Bowser's jab and ftilt. Which are awesome, by the way.
Seriously, klaw into either of those will win you matches. Bowser remembers how to l-cancel, unlike most of these other scrubs.
Seriously, klaw into either of those will win you matches. Bowser remembers how to l-cancel, unlike most of these other scrubs.
That invulnerability on his Up+B is what keeps him from getting ftilt-locked by Sheik. : (
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Sliq should be in the back room. He'd spice things up.
I have tried to play Bowser, and I can tell he has potential but I love Ganon too much to focus on another fat *******.
And his uair is amazing for punishing early air dodges. Just jump at someone so that you'll peak whenever they airdodge, then fast fall and uair to hit them. It's a lot like Ike's.
I have tried to play Bowser, and I can tell he has potential but I love Ganon too much to focus on another fat *******.
And his uair is amazing for punishing early air dodges. Just jump at someone so that you'll peak whenever they airdodge, then fast fall and uair to hit them. It's a lot like Ike's.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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- May 22, 2006
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With the exception of Ganon and Ike, it seems like the heavy characters are doing pretty well in the game. They all have the potential to go pretty far, surprisingly enough. Being a fan of the heavies in both Melee and 64, this was definitely a pleasant surprise for me :D
Also, in the pools I played at Smash and Coffee 2, the only person I lost to was Sliq. I still blame that on me doing an up smash instead of an up tilt (and also on the fact we played on FD 3 times 'cause it was funny), but he legitimately beat me and he is a superb Bowser player.
Actually, I take that back. His Bowser is really great in singles, but not so great in doubles (but his Ganon is downright terrifying in doubles).
Also, in the pools I played at Smash and Coffee 2, the only person I lost to was Sliq. I still blame that on me doing an up smash instead of an up tilt (and also on the fact we played on FD 3 times 'cause it was funny), but he legitimately beat me and he is a superb Bowser player.
Actually, I take that back. His Bowser is really great in singles, but not so great in doubles (but his Ganon is downright terrifying in doubles).
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
If only Ganon had a better recovery... 
KishSquared
Smash Master
Jeff finally contributes. Stupid Tim.
Also, Sliq didn't really bring up flame, which is awesome against some characters. It can position Bowser and even be used to approach. A technique I use a lot is to bait people into jumping at me. Hit them away, charge at them, then jump slightly backwards and blow fire. Sometimes this can cause massive damage, especially if used near the edge so they can't just DI away without throwing themselves off the ledge. It can also be used for edgeguarding - it can seriously gimp some people's recoveries if they don't react in time to the fact that it was canceled by the fire.
Finally, the Bowser Sit. Very few people understand how ridiculously good this move is, especially when used from the ground. This is the #1 thing I'm working at right now, because it's a free kill if you can land it. And now that the hopping animation actually pops people up into the sit path, it's no harder to land than any other blockable move (and in some cases easier).
The move comes out FAST. It can be used to edge-guard (not joking here, try using it when someone's about to hop up from the ledge), and it can still be used to mindgame people when you're in the air by cutting your downward momentum as they jump up to attack you from below, then you sit on their head. Sometimes if the opponent blocks the initial hop, they instinctively try to shield-drop into an attack or grab, but Bowser isn't there no more - he's about to sit on your head, my friend. Finally, you can use it to grab the ledge, which was its primary use in Melee.
The downside to the Bowser Sit is that sometimes people aren't popped directly into the path of the sit, though I'm beginning to suspect that this has more to do with stale moves than DI. There are also some characters that can air-dodge the sit after getting popped up, but so far I've only seen this consistently with Iggy's Capt. Falcon. More exploration needs to be done on this move. And, of course, Bowser is extremely vulnerable after using it. However, since Bowser is the heaviest and hardest character to kill in the game, you can sometimes abuse this move because they can't do too much to you anyway.
DDD is true, but he can actually easily survive Falco's CG-spike combo. If you're at a low enough % to get CG'ed, just let him spike you once over the edge. You can immediately jump and up-B, usually catching Falco in the process and dealing a fair amount of damage. Still, this is 50-60% of free damage on Bowser, which isn't cool.
Also, Sliq didn't really bring up flame, which is awesome against some characters. It can position Bowser and even be used to approach. A technique I use a lot is to bait people into jumping at me. Hit them away, charge at them, then jump slightly backwards and blow fire. Sometimes this can cause massive damage, especially if used near the edge so they can't just DI away without throwing themselves off the ledge. It can also be used for edgeguarding - it can seriously gimp some people's recoveries if they don't react in time to the fact that it was canceled by the fire.
Finally, the Bowser Sit. Very few people understand how ridiculously good this move is, especially when used from the ground. This is the #1 thing I'm working at right now, because it's a free kill if you can land it. And now that the hopping animation actually pops people up into the sit path, it's no harder to land than any other blockable move (and in some cases easier).
The move comes out FAST. It can be used to edge-guard (not joking here, try using it when someone's about to hop up from the ledge), and it can still be used to mindgame people when you're in the air by cutting your downward momentum as they jump up to attack you from below, then you sit on their head. Sometimes if the opponent blocks the initial hop, they instinctively try to shield-drop into an attack or grab, but Bowser isn't there no more - he's about to sit on your head, my friend. Finally, you can use it to grab the ledge, which was its primary use in Melee.
The downside to the Bowser Sit is that sometimes people aren't popped directly into the path of the sit, though I'm beginning to suspect that this has more to do with stale moves than DI. There are also some characters that can air-dodge the sit after getting popped up, but so far I've only seen this consistently with Iggy's Capt. Falcon. More exploration needs to be done on this move. And, of course, Bowser is extremely vulnerable after using it. However, since Bowser is the heaviest and hardest character to kill in the game, you can sometimes abuse this move because they can't do too much to you anyway.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
this is good info. bowser is amazing. anyone know of how he's been doing in tournaments?
Overswarm
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Depends on the Bowser. Sliq placed 5th at the last one behind Anther, Kirk Q, Bloodhawk, and myself; Pika, ROB, Lucario, ROB, respectively. He tied for 5th with Kel, a Marth/MK.
So...
Synopsis:
Bowser is a character of extremes. He basically runs hot and cold. His advantages, such as his heavy weight, excellent out of shield options, grab release options, and his multitude of KO moves, are all very prominent. Unfortunately, his weaknesses, his large size (making him easy to combo and hit), laggy attacks, lack of options in many circumstances, and poor vertical recovery are just as obvious.
Bowser will never be the powerhouse that a player can simply pick up and destroy the opposition with, but if a player dedicates himself to this character and gets around his weaknesses it is highly likely that they can make significant marks on the tournament scene. The fact that Bowser has so many obvious weaknesses may actually be a boon to him; there are few serious Bowser mains in existence, so if you happen to run up against one you are unlikely to have experience fighting them... while they will almost certainly have experience fighting your character.
So...
Synopsis:
Bowser is a character of extremes. He basically runs hot and cold. His advantages, such as his heavy weight, excellent out of shield options, grab release options, and his multitude of KO moves, are all very prominent. Unfortunately, his weaknesses, his large size (making him easy to combo and hit), laggy attacks, lack of options in many circumstances, and poor vertical recovery are just as obvious.
Bowser will never be the powerhouse that a player can simply pick up and destroy the opposition with, but if a player dedicates himself to this character and gets around his weaknesses it is highly likely that they can make significant marks on the tournament scene. The fact that Bowser has so many obvious weaknesses may actually be a boon to him; there are few serious Bowser mains in existence, so if you happen to run up against one you are unlikely to have experience fighting them... while they will almost certainly have experience fighting your character.
crescentia
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
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- 310
What is the Bowser sit? Bair?