Practicing on your own-A guide

Zodiac · Jul 25, 2008

The purpose of these exercises are not to practice combos, its to build control and timing over the game in general, practicing these specific movements is not the point the either. In doing these exercises you will gain greater control over your character and be able to move more accurately during matches.

First a quote I feel describes the purpose of these exercises

SHDW23 said:
What he is proposing is an exercise in control. it has no immediate fighting application but thats not it's purpose. the point is to learn how hard/fast/long/short... you have to push the buttons to achieve the desired result. once you have the control to say waveshine (for example) you can (and it is in fact easier to) adjust it slightly to account to the extra lag and other stuff that occurs when you actually use it against someone than it is to practice the exact timing for each character you might fight.

because of the way that melee works practice a specific combo is impractical. depending on how your opponent di's, techs, and responds to what you do you have to change what you're going to do. what zodiac is proposing is to do is increase your control over your character, thus allowing you to be more adaptive.

so in theory the goal of zodiac's exercise is not to master the combination of move he proposed but instead to gain the skill and muscular control required to do those moves (Zodiac:And all moves for that matter) precisely.

Zodiac said:
A series of moves or what ever they would be called, those are not the point, you are not memorizing them, but being able to do those , and faster each time builds up your over all tech skill so when the time comes that you have to dash off(Or wave dash) of a platform and suddenly do a perfect waveland away from sheiks dash attack and return with a forward smash in sheiks face, you can do it without a hitch.

Or even return with a sh laser to shine to whatever.

This thread is aimed towards everyone. period, even M2K could benefit from doing these exercises, but i'm sure he doesn't need to since he lives in a area with a good smash community.

People with out tech skill or just learning tech skill, these can be for you but I don't recommend them, for you just shffling aerials would do well, once you have down l-canceling at the least then you can start doing these exercises.

Aren't you happy this isn't another thread ASKING how to practice on your own, Anyway. Im going to show people how to practice on their own. and how to apply their practiced skill during matches, and since each character is very unique im going to cover them all. However I will be starting with characters I know best, these will be.

Marth
Sheik
Link
Falco

there will be videos. But before I get into anything character specific, I want to say what has been stated over and over again. For mindgames and getting better you NEED to play people better than you or at least someone that gives you a challenge. While you practice on your own, it will not be against computers.

Preparation - You need two controllers to practice on your own. The second controller will be so you don't have an annoying computer hitting you every two seconds. plug that into the second port and set it to a human player.

There are certain exercises for each character that you can use to build your tech skill. Character stuff! When you do these exercises and eventually "master" them you will not immediately see situations where you can use them. usually, but like in most high pressure matches, you will very very suddenly see and opportunity. just don't force it is the point, otherwise it just wont be right.

Falco
Exercise one - Go to yoshi story and do the following combination as fast as YOU can, not as fast as M2K can. You will get faster over time. step one is mastering the control of this complex movement.

Ledge hope > Shffl Dair> Shine>Sh to platform>Waveland>shine>shffl aerial

video coming soon

Its looks like its a short combination but this will build your tech skill greatly if practiced every day or so, the purpose of this particular exercise is to increase the amount of control you have over Falco.

Remember, do not do try to go M2k speeds with this right away, start at the pace that's best for you and increase speed over each session or as needed.

Also mods, if you eventually see this guide developing well, I request a sticky :D

Vro · Jul 25, 2008

Fighting against lvl 1 cpu's does no harm. It helps build basic tech skill/repetition, combos against characters, and stage familiarity. You can do that with a blank player, sure. But does he poorly DI or poorly recover onto the stage? I think not!

HT F8 · Jul 26, 2008

Vro said:
Fighting against lvl 1 cpu's does no harm. It helps build basic tech skill/repetition, combos against characters, and stage familiarity. You can do that with a blank player, sure. But does he poorly DI or poorly recover onto the stage? I think not!

I agree, practicing against the Lvl. 1 CPU has made me a lot better. I mean, I still suck. XD
But not as bad as I used to suck. :chuckle:

It's also good to try out specific charater techniques (i.e. Samus' Missle/Platform Cancels) against a Lvl. 1 CPU after improving against a blank controller. The computer may be severely ********, but at least it gives you a chance to apply the moves to an advancing/living opponent.

slartibartfast42 · Jul 27, 2008

Blank controllers don't DI, so I recommend low-level CPU's for practicing, although I'm probably not the most qualified to say.

I will say that practicing against a blank controller is good if you just want to practice a tech in place like shffling or wavedashing, I used playing against a blank controller extensively when I learned to float cancel with peach and short hop double fair with marth (it's amazing how those things just randomly come out in matches without me thinking now

).

=ArtH= · Jul 27, 2008

I just play LV9s now because I play better under pressure. It's the same reason why I play worse in friendlies.

Zodiac · Jul 27, 2008

I also play better under pressure, but it sucks when you fight someone from your crew in a tourney. cause then its just like a friendly and you dont care as much.

Falco updated

victra♥ · Jul 27, 2008

Zodiac said:
I also play better under pressure, but it sucks when you fight someone from your crew in a tourney. cause then its just like a friendly and you dont care as much.

It's hard for me to play under pressure =X

Especially since I use Fox quite a bit, I end up gimping a lot.

no johns.

Vro · Jul 27, 2008

I don't understand why you think your Falco exercise is practical or important. Why not break down individual concepts, so that players will figure it out, rather than throwing out inputs?

otg · Jul 27, 2008

Vro said:
I don't understand why you think your Falco exercise is practical or important. Why not break down individual concepts, so that players will figure it out, rather than throwing out inputs?

Agreed, I think it would be more practical to just practice against a Level 1 Fox on FD. Just combo the balls out of him and get used to the tech skill. Start off with just Dair-> shine, than try to Waveshine into another Dair, etc etc. Work on Zero to death against Fox, I know it's not completely practical but they will learn how to combo somewhat and try to follow/punish DI.

Zodiac · Jul 27, 2008

Otg, Vro, neither of you are getting the point nor are trying to. and another thing, your not doing combos on blank controllers. that would be plain stupid, you COULD go into training mode but then you wouldnt have controller of the c-stick of which most people use. Again the purpose of these exercises isnt to build tech skill, but to build control.

lordoftheasians · Jul 27, 2008

Haha, I'm going to try this. Maybe it will help me.

Ja · Jul 28, 2008

Falco
Exercise one - Go to yoshi story and do the following combination as fast as YOU can, not as fast as M2K can. You will get faster over time. step one is mastering the control of this complex movement.

Ledge hope > Shffl Dair> Shine>Sh to platform>Waveland>shine>shffl aerial

I don't get the pont of this, the timing to shine cancel is different depending on what the shine hits or doesn't hit. Isn't this just practicing a combo with the wrong timing (unless there's an overlap b/t jc shine hit and jc shine whiff) ?

I'm really interested in this, because it sucks hard having to play by yourself, but I don't get the point of this specific example.

Vro · Jul 28, 2008

Zodiac said:
Again the purpose of these exercises isnt to build tech skill, but to build control.

I completely fail to understand this statement.

Could you explain it?

Red the Ghost · Jul 28, 2008

This sounds like it has promise. I'm interested in seeing it when you're done. =]

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

Example - Im quite learned at the technicalities of this game , frame data, hit stun, lag ect. But I cant just go into a match and hit the combination for a waveshine ridiculously fast thinking it will work because the timing is off, not only that but if all i'm thinking about is pressing buttons i'm not factoring in the weight of the character.

So by using these exercises you gain greater control over your character, and again, its not practicing certain combo's. Muscle memory is probably a better way to describe it, don't concentrate on the combos, concentrate on the timing is what Im saying here, understand? It come in handy all over the place, not the combos but having better control over your character.

By the way - this isnt a theory, I've tested it on myself and it works quite well.

Vro · Jul 30, 2008

So instead of making sure you l-cancel all aerials all the time, shine well, and have fluency, you want people to practice a repeated series of inputs which move your character?

I don't see how control of your character can be practiced with flashy movements. Tech skill limits how well you control your character. I can't see how you can argue otherwise.

SHDW23 · Jul 30, 2008

i have no experience with falco but what zodiac is saying makes sense. i'll try to help him clarify. what he is proposing is an exercise in control. it has no immediate fighting application but that not it's purpose. the point is to learn how hard/fast/long/short... you have to push the buttons to achieve the desired result. once you have the control to say waveshine (for example) you can (and it is in fact easier to) adjust it slightly to account to the extra lag and other stuff that occurs when you actually use it against someone than it is to practice the exact timing for each character you might fight.

because of the way that melee works practice a specific combo is impractical. depending on how your opponent di's, techs, and responds to what you do you have to change what you're going to do. what zodiac is proposing is to do is increase your control over your character, thus allowing you to be more adaptive.

so in theory the goal of zodiac's exercise is not to master the combination of move he proposed but instead to gain the skill and muscular control required to do those moves precisely.

and zodiac if i have it wrong, tell me and i'll change it. this is a good thread.

and vro i don't see how you could possibly agrue that tech skill limits your control. be able to l-cancel allows you to control the amount of lag that your character has. wavedashing allows you to control you character's movements while leaving all your attack options open. the list goes on...

Vro · Jul 30, 2008

SHDW23 said:
and vro i don't see how you could possibly agrue that tech skill limits your control. be able to l-cancel allows you to control the amount of lag that your character has. wavedashing allows you to control you character's movements while leaving all your attack options open. the list goes on...

So, l-canceling and wavedashing isn't including in tech skill? I am saying that your ability to control your character is directly correlated to your tech skill/ability. Your tech skill will limit (read: cap) your control. It seems you're arguing on the same side as me.

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

SHDW23 said:
i have no experience with falco but what zodiac is saying makes sense. i'll try to help him clarify. what he is proposing is an exercise in control. it has no immediate fighting application but that not it's purpose. the point is to learn how hard/fast/long/short... you have to push the buttons to achieve the desired result. once you have the control to say waveshine (for example) you can (and it is in fact easier to) adjust it slightly to account to the extra lag and other stuff that occurs when you actually use it against someone than it is to practice the exact timing for each character you might fight.

because of the way that melee works practice a specific combo is impractical. depending on how your opponent di's, techs, and responds to what you do you have to change what you're going to do. what zodiac is proposing is to do is increase your control over your character, thus allowing you to be more adaptive.

so in theory the goal of zodiac's exercise is not to master the combination of move he proposed but instead to gain the skill and muscular control required to do those moves precisely.

No, thats exactly what I was getting at

Vro said:
So instead of making sure you l-cancel all aerials all the time, shine well, and have fluency, you want people to practice a repeated series of inputs which move your character?

I don't see how control of your character can be practiced with flashy movements. Tech skill limits how well you control your character. I can't see how you can argue otherwise.

See above, its not about practicing the combos, its about the control you get by doing the exercises.

Vro said:
So, l-canceling and wavedashing isn't including in tech skill? I am saying that your ability to control your character is directly correlated to your tech skill/ability. Your tech skill will limit (read: cap) your control. It seems you're arguing on the same side as me.

What your meaning to say is that your level of tech skill limits you right?

Vro · Jul 30, 2008

Yes, we can both agree to that.

However, I don't think your exercises are particularly effective, because you're just practicing a series of moves, rather than nailing down l-canceling, shines, shffls, etc. Plus, comboing on computers is effective learning.

SHDW23 · Jul 30, 2008

oh i see. what you're saying is that your level of tech skill defines an upper limit for your ability to control. i thought you were saying that the more tech skill you had the more limited your control was. i am arguing the same side, sorry for the misunderstanding :laugh:

i would say that zodiac is trying to give people a goal more concrete than combo or l-cancel perfectly. and more exercises would prevent it from devolving into just memorizing that one combination. once you have a greater level of tech skill, improvising with his exercise as a basis would probably be beneficial.

Vro · Jul 30, 2008

Oh, I'm sure. There will always be practices where you just trying to nail down a certain series. I spent an entire afternoon practicing shine > bair. Shine to platform is also useful. But I wouldn't recommend that be your only practice; specific training is just that, specific.

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

Vro said:
Yes, we can both agree to that.

However, I don't think your exercises are particularly effective, because you're just practicing a series of moves, rather than nailing down l-canceling, shines, shffls, etc. Plus, comboing on computers is effective learning.

Actually the purpose of it isnt to practice that one series of moves but to be ABLE to nail down perfect l-cancels, shines, shffls, jc grabs ledge games etc. when the time is right. but not series of moves in the exercises, the moves in the exercises just happens to be a good method of practicing tech skill and timing.

Vro said:
Oh, I'm sure. There will always be practices where you just trying to nail down a certain series. I spent an entire afternoon practicing shine > bair. Shine to platform is also useful. But I wouldn't recommend that be your only practice; specific training is just that, specific.

This practice is meant cover any situation you might need tech skill in

SHDW23 · Jul 30, 2008

i play marth, i would be willing to work on some exercises for marth. i don't have any great ideas now, but who knows.

Vro · Jul 30, 2008

If that's the case, wouldn't it be better to teach building blocks, rather than set patterns?

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

Vro said:
If that's the case, wouldn't it be better to teach building blocks, rather than set patterns?

Your still stuck on the set patterns, series of moves or what ever they would be called, those aernt the point, you aernt memorizing them, but being able to do those , and faster each time builds up your over all tech skill so when the time comes that you have to dash of a platform and suddenlly do a perfect waveland away from sheiks dash attack and return with a forward smash in sheiks face, you can do it without a hitch.

SHDW23 said:
i play marth, i would be willing to work on some exercises for marth. i don't have any great ideas now, but who knows.

Dunno when I'll come up with marth exercises.

SHDW23 · Jul 30, 2008

i think a base level of tech skill needs to be established. in other words "this guide is aimed at people who can already _____, ______, and _____." these exercise would not help m2k or dsw much as they already have extremely advanced control. but neither will it help someone who can't l-cancel or fast fall because they won't be able to execute the moves.

and i meant i would try to invent some marth exercises that you could then post.

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

SHDW23 said:
i think a base level of tech skill needs to be established. in other words "this guide is aimed at people who can already _____, ______, and _____." these exercise would not help m2k or dsw much as they already have extremely advanced control. but neither will it help someone who can't l-cancel or fast fall because they won't be able to execute the moves.

and i meant i would try to invent some marth exercises that you could then post.

That should be clarified, I think I did on the first page, I have no objections to getting help with coming up with character exercises, so go ahead.

firexemblemxpryde · Jul 30, 2008

Concerning Marth,

I give you full permission to use this entire post, without using my name:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=120587

Zodiac · Jul 30, 2008

firexemblemxpryde said:
Concerning Marth,

I give you full permission to use this entire post, without using my name:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=120587

Sweetness, I'll definitely give you credit for this when I rework some exercises using this.

The Alpha Gundam · Jul 30, 2008

Hmmm i never thought of practicing this way before. I will try this out.
Thanks

SHDW23 · Jul 30, 2008

firexemblemxpryde: i hadn't seen this guide before, there's some great stuff here. i would add washdashing out of shield (like up-b out of shield).
i came up with one of my own. it's not really about tech skill as much as control. here it is:
following zodiac's basic setup choose marth. select any stage with an edge you can grab. go and hang on the edge, then tilt away from the ledge to let it go, then quickly jump (back) and do a fair (using the control stick and a button), finally hold back toward the edge, which you should regrab. by itself this isn't very hard and once you can do it (on both sides/in both directions) you can make it more complicated by doing it a couple times in a row then doing a ledgehop to nair (w/ ff and l-cancel) onto the stage then wavedash back to the edge and repeat. it's not a particularly hard exercise but inserting the nair ledgehop tripped me up quite a bit as it significantly changes the pattern. tell me whether it helps you, for me it's a great exercise in controlling aerial momentum.

also i've found that when you're trying to learn how the do moves that begin with dropping from the edge, sd-ing all the time can be frustrating, so use the grabable ledge in the middle of Temple.

for newer player practicing l-canceling (using any character) i've found it helpful to do a pattern such as (all shffl-ed and directional attacks done with c-stick):
nair-uair-nair-dair-nair-bair-nair-fair-nair
you'll notice this also forces you to switch between the c-stick and a button, which is a good thing to be fluent in.

this thread has some serious potential.

Falcinho · Jul 30, 2008

i like it.

If you only pratice combos against lvl1 cpus your tech skill won't advance as fast as if you do random crap like this.

You just have to mix it up, cuz if you always do the same you'll not be able to adapt as fast.

Proud_Smash_N00b · Aug 2, 2008

Falcinho said:
i like it.

If you only pratice combos against lvl1 cpus your tech skill won't advance as fast as if you do random crap like this.

You just have to mix it up, cuz if you always do the same you'll not be able to adapt as fast.

playing against level 1s also creates a bad habit that makes you always want to charge in in hopes of pulling off a combo. Thats how it is for me

Kid5day · Aug 2, 2008

Wouldn't it be a good idea to add in a practice for the basics too? Why only do the advanced techs? Couldn't you make one for beginners like this:

Wavedash-edgehog-->(Optional)Go down and sweetspot the ledge-->Jump from edge-->Waveland-->Dashdance-JC Grab-->Wavedash-->(Optional)Character-specific tech-->SHFFL--> Repeat

All on FD of course. Preferably with 2 controllers, as them DIing doesn't matter and you can use C-Stick.

Just my thoughts.

Grunt · Aug 2, 2008

Too bad it's built into FireFox, not the Website.
IE doesn't do that.

Vro · Aug 2, 2008

You can add it into its dictionary.

game set · Aug 2, 2008

learned all the tech i know by myself, it just took time. learning when to use tech in battle though, I had learn in battle.

when i want to practice control, I just "control" my character in as many situations i can, with whatever needs practice. It doesn't sound like much, but it's surprising how you learn.

Kid5day · Aug 2, 2008

Hahah Woops I edited that out. I heard something about this website having an spell-check feature I thought, so I figured that it was doing that... I never really misspell things....

SpaceFalcon · Aug 2, 2008

Practicing on your own is all about being smart. You don't want to integrate habbits into your style that will hurt you in real matches. But instead benefit you.

Training on your own falls along the lines of "don't get hit" in some extent. If you're a smart player and don't need to go on SWF complaining about CPU DI and KNOW what you should be doing to practice you can go far.

But technical can bring you to a point, I use to think it didn't. Watching videos and studying the metagame also helps A LOT.

I made a similar thread recently but I got flammed for my ideas.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162575

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