Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #1: Olimar (Rediscuss)

Meep: I know there's a match-up thread, but Jesiah hasn't created all of the synopsis for the characters and the match-up thread seems to be lacking in debate. So if we have a dedicated thread, things will work out better? Worth a try.

Okay, since these boards are rather inactive and whatnot in terms of actual strategic discussion, I've borrowed this idea from Ulevo of the Marth boards and started my own variation here, for Toon Link.

Every week, we will have one character match-up versus Toon Link discussed thoroughly. Here we may offer strategies, tactics, counterpick stages, etc. that will help us fight the character in question [with Toon Link].

After discussion has ended, one of us shall compile all strategies together into a summary. Our inputs to this discussion may help Jesiah with his match-up thread. Or, if we're too lazy to do that, we can make a separate thread every week and link back to older threads (I feel as if this is what we'll be agreeing on, xD).

So, since many of us are having trouble fighting Olimar, I thought it would be ultimately beneficial to do him first, and we can vote on the next weekly discussion as discussion dies down for the current week. Simple, yes? But ultimately we need this thread to be fruitful of good information.

Olimars tend to run away a lot and stay in shield when you get within fighting range. So what I do is full jump or double jump while spamming projectiles at long to mid range. Use more boomerang or arrow since the bombs can backfire.

Once you get in close work around their shields. They'll usually shield grab, usmash out of shieldgrab, dsmash out of shield, or run away if you let them. Work around their shield and keep them guessing where you're going to go. For instance nair at them and move onto the other side of their shield before you land. THey'll usually think you're going to land in front of them and shield grab. If not they'll dsmash and you have to watch for that. If they miss the shhield grab they're open for a rar. If they run, chase them with projectiles.

Try to hit him off the stage and then gimp him. I like ot use nairs to hit him out in case he airdodges.

This is a very good topic. I can't say I can give any insight into Olimar to be honest so I'm not going to anything on this character.

This thread would pick up more if you start off with characters people see mostly of in tournaments. There would just be more people with more to say. I say start off with Snake and MK and work you way down according to placings. Then next would be DDD, Marth, ROB, G&W, Olimar and so on.

FYI, I'm Vietnamese too.

I think this thread is a great idea.

As for Olimar, I personally have a lot of difficulty fighting him. So here's why I have trouble:

His Pikmin spam can usually outcamp Toon Link's projectile spam.
His Forward Smash has ridiculous mid-range spacing
His up throw (with the purple Pikmin) will kill Toon Link at ~100%.
His up throw (with other Pikmin) combos real well.
His attacks all look similar, making it difficult to read his actions.
(I could be wrong on this one) His moves (using Pikmin) seem to out prioritize Toon Link's.
He's small, and I feel like that's making it hard for me to combo him.
When he lands a Pikmin toss on you, your bombs work against you.
I have trouble approaching him. RARing works "ok" but it's not easy.

On the flip side:
He's light.
He's pretty **** easy to gimp.
He needs space to work (so does Toon Link though).
Ummm, we'll think of more Toon Link advantages, I'm sure.

I've had a little more success lately when I play a pressure game, where I stay primarily in close-to-mid-range combat, mostly aerials with projectiles to counter his Pikmin. You can usually beat him long range with arrows, but all he has to do is power-shield --> dash and get into Pikmin throw range to limit that. SH-aerials to QD-arrows will usually keep him on his feet.

A lot of Olimar players on here will agree that they can usually beat Toon Link. So I'd like to hear from you guys as to how you deal with Olimar.

Oh and if you could somehow land a down-smash when he's >20%, it's almost a free kill for you on certain stages.

Oo I forgot you could dsmash with the front of it and then send him flying off the stage. That's a great gimping move.

Therefore, if the Olimar player doesn't ban Yoshi's Island Brawl, it's a good neutral. The sides are tilted and allow for gimps, its offset by the platform spawns but that's unavoidable. This allows for edgehogging and you'll gimp them that way. Platform above gives you some breathing room if you need it and tilts to allow for another area for setting up edgeguarding and the like.

Frigate Orpheon is good too, as it nerfs Olimar's recovery and it has platforms to give you some maneuverability. The flipped stage has slopes in the middle section, which can allow you to set up for an edgehog. If you want to use this as a counterpick, learn how it works though, or you may gimp yourself.

Corneria is also Toon Link's haven. If you can lure Olimar to the left side, you can gimp him for sure if you hit him with Dsmash. Low stage ceiling allows you to kill him with Usmash, Utilt, Uair, and normal Dsmash. The thrusters on the right also allow for the gimp from the Dsmash as it's slightly curved. Curves can screw up retreating Nairs/Fairs/Bairs to arrow cancel but the fact that you have so much freedom in how to kill here makes it a beautiful Counterpick.

I agree with Frigate Orpheon and Yoshi's Island for the points you made.

For Coneria, however, while all the things you've said are true, you've got to be careful about his up-throw. With the right Pikmin (blue and purple, I believe), he can kill Toon Link from as low as 50% on top of the fin. 50 Percent! That's dangerous. The close borders can help Olimar just as well as it can help you.

I also recommend Pirate Ship as a counterpick. If you get him in the water, all of his Pikmin die (except for the blue ones). And you can dair the crap out of him if you get the chance to. I'm not sure if his Pikmin die in the water areas found in Delfino Plaza.

I can't be entirely sure of this counterpick, but I think Rainbow Cruise may help gimp Olimar. The stage may simply move too fast for him and there are certain areas where poor jumpers really struggle. I'll test it out against my buddy and see how it fairs.

Hmm, I see. That's knowledgeable to know regarding Olimar's Uthrow.

Rainbow Cruise is also very good against Snake and campers in general. You'll have to be more offensive and stick to Boomerangs and Bombs instead of relying on arrows too much on this stage. The stage is extremely dynamic and toward the top of the stage, a Utilt or Usmash can kill. But, Olimar will also be able to do what you mentioned here even easier since you're literally near the ceiling. Try it out for us, there's probably not a single Olimar player within 10 miles of me. xD

Delfino is godly for Toon Link. Low ceilings on several parts of the stage allow for vertical kills, and walks-off allow for kills with Ftilt, Fair, Nair, so fourth. The water here kills all but blue Pikmin too. The sandy beach area is a giant slope that allows you to do the Dsmash glitch then Dair him to death and kills his Pikmin as well (sans blue).

On the roof area, there's a slant on the right side that allows for the gimp. The left has a walk-off that favors your Nair and Ftilt specifically. Temporary walls may allow you to Dtilt lock at low percentages.

And while on the platform, you can go through the bottom, which allows you to poke through with Bair or Uair then due to your floatiness, be able to make it back on usually.

This stage might as well have been a Zelda stage in all honesty. <_< Too ****ing good for
Toon Link.

Yeah from experience. Olimars do spam projectiles. Probably the best way to fight with a range character is to fight in a ranged style like I do. I don't find too much of a difficulty of fighting Olimas with my style. Well I have been using my stlye since like.....2002? I think? But i was shortly after 9-11(God Bless America). My cousin made a move with link that I picked up and developed it and then the stlye. I don't like to talk about it because I don't like too many people picking up my style and then copying it and calling it their own(different name or not). Though if I must just let me know and I might consider doing it.

counter picks against olimar........Final destination. if he wants to camp. you camp too. sure he might outcamp you. but you can use his limited projectile angle and go above, there are no platforms to get in the way. force him off and edge hog so that way his only way of getting back is the pikmin latching to the edge. and if he knocks you off. just knock him sideways.

Bros229 said:

counter picks against olimar........Final destination. if he wants to camp. you camp too. sure he might outcamp you. but you can use his limited projectile angle and go above, there are no platforms to get in the way. force him off and edge hog so that way his only way of getting back is the pikmin latching to the edge. and if he knocks you off. just knock him sideways.

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I lawled

Final D, for Olimar?

Surely you jest sir.

Anyway Bomber, do tell us the generally gist of your anti-Olimar playstyle if you will. We're here to share information to benefit all of us. Trade secrets will not help the community. If your "secret technique" cannot be shared, then do not mention it for it will just spark needless curiosity.

Like that of mine for example. xD

i was kidding. thank god someone caught that my post was one of oddballness. =]

lawl. Ok, well I call it the Bombers Technique. As the name suggests I use bombs for basicly everything. I guess you could say with my bombs and my boomerang I control my oppponents distance. I cant go into detail what I do: Moves are Trade secret Though my moves consist of using my bombs in just about all aspects of my attack. It adds to the damage and I guess somewhat mindgame. Example: A- you can dodge the bomb and get hit by what ever attack comes next or B- get hit by them bomb and have a slight chance of avoiding what comes next. Though I suggest not doing it in friendlies. My friend has gotten accustomed to my style and has found ways to effectively get around it.

But bombs don't work too well against Olimar since his Pikmin act as meat shields and if the Pikmin latch on to you, your bombs will explode on you, right? Just to verify, the Pikmin will die from the bombs unless it's the red one, if they're just acting as meat shields?

So I'd guess if you do it right, bombs create holes in Olimar's defense and you can play hit and run with your lower lag aerials and use the boomerang to try to create openings as well? Because it hits on its return, it can create unexpected openings and allow you to follow-up as it has pretty good hitstun (for a projectile in Brawl anyway).

I don't play enough good Olimars so I'm left with very little to work with here. The CPUs don't seem to act like real Olimars so I refrained from using them as test dummies.

So answer this, it may help more than just me, lol:

What can Olimar do to you when you camp/play projectiles?

How safely can Olimar react to your approaches?

How well can you land a kill on Olimar? Weight is a factor, but does not dictate everything.

Should your approach be shielded, how safe are you? Can you retreat easily or are you left to be punished? How easily can he punish you for a failed approach?

How can Olimar counteract your projectiles. Name how he does so to each one (boomerang, arrows, bombs). This is a follow-up to the 1st question.

How often should you camp, and how often should you resort to the offensive?

Olimar is a real pain no matter what character one is playing. The biggest issue, for me, is the pikmin throw and how quickly it can build damage. If olimar gets within range and spaces properly, he can lob a few pikmin, and all of a sudden you're drunk in a puddle of your own spit at 60%, covered in Pikmin knawing at your ankles. Well, not really, but you get the idea. It's not that olimar outcamps TL, per se, but one good volley of pikmin throws, maybe with a white one thrown in, just flat out builds damage way faster than TL can.

Either stay really far or get really close. From afar, he's forces to approach you, and arrows can get in some damage. If he rushes you, get in his face with Nairs and Bairs (bombs help!). He wont risk the pikmin throw that close, and his only options really are smashes (which are predictable and punishable, because they're his only up-close moves, really) and SH fairs (which, if he uses them early, will get dull and be less useful for KOs later). Either way, Olimar freaks out when TL gets bold and agressive. Do it.

This is the beauty of TL, imo. That he has the option of getting in really quickly and pressuring from up close. No other projectile based character runs as quickly as TL, and can approach as fast (save fox, but he's a chump imo : P)

j/k fox is cute.

USE NEUTRAL AIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!


it kills all of the pikmin on you or coming at you.

it also rails olimar in the head.

keep your spacing and your flow good too.


you have to bait his shield grab with an autocancelled move from a good angle. It's about a 45. Jump in him and Nair. It does a decent job.

The most success I've had using bombs vs. Olimar are from directly above him. The blast radius will outprioritize his up attacks. From other angles, however, it's more of a matter of getting around his Pikmin. If he's latched Pikmin on you while you have a bomb out, you have a few options:

A. Use the bomb and have it blow up on you for a little damage (frustrating, let me tell you).
B. Don't use the bomb and have the Pikmin rack up damage on you (they do a lot of damage if you let them).
C. Try to kamikaze Olimar (most satisfying, but difficult to pull off because you have to approach).

That's my experience with using bombs vs. Olimar.

In terms of projectiles, at mid-range, I've had the most success using boomerangs. Jump into the air and angle your boomerang down at him. His pikmin spam is limited by the angles he can throw them at. When you're in the air, he has difficulty hitting you with them.

What can Olimar do to you when you camp/play projectiles?
He walks up a bit (while throwing Pikmin to give himself cover) and gets within Pikmin throw range. He can also utilize platforms to gain additional range on his pikmin throw. In my experience, he can generally outcamp me.

How can Olimar counteract your projectiles. Name how he does so to each one (boomerang, arrows, bombs). This is a follow-up to the 1st question.
Boomerang: His Pikmin block this. As stated earlier, however, when used at proper angles, he's forced to dodge or shield it.
Arrows: His Pikmin block this. Good for counter some of the Pikmin spam and therefore helps you avoid some damage. Sneaking these in with the QD method is good.
Bombs: His Pikmin block this too . I covered bombs earlier.

Just because he can neutralize your projectiles doesn't mean don't use use them though. You can ease the Pikmin pain by countering with projectiles.

How safely can Olimar react to your approaches?
This depends on your spacing. His forward-smash has excellent spacing capabilities at mid-range, but it does have a lag period after its use. Try to squeeze in after he has used it and try to punish him. It's difficult to do because (well, for me anyway) I have trouble distinguishes his moves. It's can be difficult to judge whether he's throwing his Pikmin over using smash attacks. Pikmin throw does have a unique sound to it when he uses it and the they go farther than his smash attacks.

If you keep on him using (well-timed and spaced) aerials in conjunction with Quickdraw Arrows, you can throw him off his game eventually and that's when you can capitalize. The nice thing (one of the few) about fighting Olimar is that you don't have to outright knock off the stage to kill him. Simply forcing him into using his second jump to his UpB recovery can net you a kill, which leads into the next question.

How well can you land a kill on Olimar? Weight is a factor, but does not dictate everything.
Luckily for us, Olimar is a light character. Usually, light characters are easier to kill vertically and more difficult to kill (as opposed to heavy characters) horizontally. Olimar, however, is technically easy to kill both ways. One of Toon Link's most glaring weaknesses, however, is his ability to land a killing blow. Toon Link's primary kill moves are F-smash, Up-smash (I think this is the most commonly used kill method utilized by Toon Link users), U-air, F-air (higher %) and the ultra-risky D-air. What do these moves have in common? They're all predictable. Predictability leads to missed hits and punishment. So how easy is it to land a killing blow on Olimar? This mostly depends on how good you are. Against Olimar, F-tilting has lead to surprising success. It's quick enough to pseudo-spam at close-mid-range, has enough swing-arc to knock off/counter his attacks and has just enough launch power (at proper percentages) to force Olimar to use his UpB to recover.

Should your approach be shielded, how safe are you? Can you retreat easily or are you left to be punished? How easily can he punish you for a failed approach?
Another one of Toon Link's glaring weaknesses is that several of his moves have a deadly lag period after use. Moves like D-air on the stage, hookshot (ugghhh) and smashes. Missing with these moves offers any opponent to gain combat advantage on you, not just Olimar. As for approaching, I can't say that I've been more successful than not, but using the wrong moves at the wrong time will get you punished. I've talked about how ridiculously powerful Olimar's up-throw is so avoiding situations where you get grabbed is key. Not only can Olimar punish you to score a kill, but he can rack up damage on opponents with the best of them. So taking punishment from Olimar is bad. Is it easy to avoid punishment? Well, depends on what you do, but if you mess up, punishment's hard to avoid, especially with Toon Link.

How often should you camp, and how often should you resort to the offensive?
Answering this question is why I'm here. From my experiences, leaning on the defensive side puts him at an advantage. Pressing the offensive has worked a little more for me. Your aerial game is faster and better overall. SH aerials --> QD arrow is what I use apply pressure on Ollie. Don't bother trying to D-air without a good opening, however. His up attacks will neutralize your attack and leave you vulnerable to further punishment. If someone can come up with an effective camping technique vs. Olimar, I'd like to read it.

Phew, let me know what you guys think.

Oh and DO NOT PLAY at Luigi's Mansion. The walls block your projectiles, but not his Pikmin. That's just asking to get outcamped. Unless your approach is perfect, don't fight here. I ban this stage when I can.

YES! Something worth posting on, thank god. If the Olimar becomes projectile happy around mid range, all you have to do is ftilt until he realizes most or all his pikmin are dead, ^_^.

Oops, it seems you have already covered this Zero, excellent job ^_^, oh well it's worth mentioning twice lol.

ZeroXMachine said:

Oh and DO NOT PLAY at Luigi's Mansion. The walls block your projectiles, but not his Pikmin. That's just asking to get outcamped. Unless your approach is perfect, don't fight here. I ban this stage when I can.

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Luigi's Mansion in general is HORRIBLE for Toon Link. I hate it .

If you are landed in a situation like this, your projectiles are out of the question for a while, maybe a couple boomerangs here and there, but rely on your zair, nair DI spacing and aerial game to buy you a little time/rack up damage. Try to keep the fight around the outer first floor poles/walls so both you and your opponent do damage to it. If you can go to the top part and draw out a bomb and throw a couple down below it may be able to draw your opponent out of the first floor of the house. Once one of the walls is down proceed to using your projectiles like always and do your best to defend the other wall, because if your opponent is smart enough (lets pretend he is) he will try his best to destroy the other wall, so the house can be rebuilt asap and get you trapped in that hell house once again.

Great thread. I can't say I've ever vsed and people who take Olimar too seriously (which is good for me).

However I think we should discuss characters who give TL a had time first (regardless of tier/tournament placing) since that will benefit the TL community the greatest.

<Olimar user
Olimar has a good projectile game but his forte is in offense/pressure. His SH aerials, long-reaching smashes, and quick movements (he has very quick spot-dodging and a quick Olimar uses that more than his shield) make it natural to pressure the opponent, not to mention throwing Pikmin after every attack that pushes your opponent out of smash range to keep the heat on (a better use for Pikmin toss than camping IMO).

That's just the way I play though, Olmiar's the knid of character that can be played many different ways effectively... as long as it's not a recovery game lol.

I dont like to camp. If I do its only for a matter of seconds. I have been Bombing for years, so I have good experience with my style. Olimar on the oter hand, the best I can fight are the ones online, no real tourny Olimars. My Bomber style works effectively against olimars only because I'm pretty much, as my friend would say, a Dark Horse. Though I do have exceptional evasion skills. I cant say I;m not reckless with my bombs, I do get hurt sometimes, but it makes little difference to me, I find a way to do well anyway. If worse comes to worse I go to Beserk Swordsman style which is self explainatory. That is like my back up there, but recently I have been trying to combine the two styles when it comes to friendlies, because my Bombing style is so predictable these days with my friends(after years of being beaten by it).

l SOUP l said:

YES! Something worth posting on, thank god. If the Olimar becomes projectile happy around mid range, all you have to do is ftilt until he realizes most or all his pikmin are dead, ^_^.

Oops, it seems you have already covered this Zero, excellent job ^_^, oh well it's worth mentioning twice lol.

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Yes, F-tilting combined with a few steps walking is pretty effective if you want to close the distance. Watch out if he switches to f-smashes when you get too close though. Thanks.

Oh and Bomber, I just wanted to let you know that before Brawl came out, I was really really hoping that Bomberman was going to be selected as a fighter (or at least an Assist Trophy!). Or the Blue Bomber...

That would have been kinda cool, my friend who know I'm obsessed with Link's bombs would have told me without me saying "Ok, I know you're going to play as him, I don't even have to say it." That's perfectly fine. I'm ok with Link, asside from the mario/ducks game i used to play as a kid on NES my first non-mario game was Legend of Zelda-Oracle of Seasons. ^^' I never really got who Zelda was, at the time it sounded like a cool guy's name so I called my person Zelda. Then like a year later I found out his name was really Link. Then a year or less after that I found out who Zelda was. Though at the time, calling my character Zelda seemed like a cool idea, becasue you know, it would only make since to name have the legond after the hero(Link.... not Zelda ^^') I assumed Zelda was the hero. lol.

l SOUP l said:

Luigi's Mansion in general is HORRIBLE for Toon Link. I hate it .

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A good way to avoid this is to ban Luigi's Mansion altogether. =P If your name isn't Snake/other heavyweight, I don't think you'd want this to be a CP anyway tbh.

vanderzant said:

However I think we should discuss characters who give TL a had time first (regardless of tier/tournament placing) since that will benefit the TL community the greatest.

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You can vote on who to discuss as the week's discussion ends. I do this so that more people can get interested in it.

ZeroX, that was very well written. I'm glad you're experienced with Olimar, because that was a wealth of information. xD

I can probably write off a good summary off of just what we have now but it hasn't been a week yet, that's for sure, lol.

I guess all of you guys were waiting for a thread like this?

I sure was. I've never been good at debating, but I love reading this stuff. >_>;

Well Friday I'm leaving to go on vacation so for a week I wont be able to keep up with next weeks dicussion(sorry). Though if you'd like, when I come back in a week we could discuss Pokomon Trainer. He is my main and I do have some guys up in the PKT forum that I'm sure would be more than happy to come in and give their info about PKT as well as I.

Bomber7,

Your "secret" tips makes me smile. No offense. :ough::Aniki:ough:: hehe

VietGeek,

Are you planning to summarize these discussion? Also, I want to suggest there be a vote off for the next character.

olimar & pikmin = fail

toon link three projectiles is like pwnage compare to his pikmin, and once he you knock him off the stage....

...

BOOM! toon link's in control!!!

toktomo said:

olimar & pikmin = fail

toon link three projectiles is like pwnage compare to his pikmin, and once he you knock him off the stage....

...

BOOM! toon link's in control!!!

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I don't even know how to begin this...

Anyone care to help me? <_<

VietGeek said:

I don't even know how to begin this...

Anyone care to help me? <_<

Click to expand...

You're on your own.... >_>....

l SOUP l said:

You're on your own.... >_>....

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You're just bitter towards me. <_<;


ZeroX: Did you ever test out Rainbow Cruise as a Counterpick against Olimar? How did it go?

ImpactAR said:

Bomber7,

Your "secret" tips makes me smile. No offense. :ough::Aniki:ough:: hehe

VietGeek,

Are you planning to summarize these discussion? Also, I want to suggest there be a vote off for the next character.

Click to expand...

-.- I dont watch Aniki fight. I could care less about that guy.

VietGeek said:

I don't even know how to begin this...

Anyone care to help me? <_<

Click to expand...

Lol...

spam w/ projectiles and space accordingly and you will surely win

...

don't forget to edgeguard olimar

...

yeh +___+

Ok, so I tried Rainbow Cruise and it worked out great. The constant stage movement really threw him off his game. Olimar's game revolves around standing and throwing Pikmin to force you to approach. On Rainbow Cruise, both fighters are forced to be mobile, thus Olimar couldn't camp me. A great strength of Toon Link's is his mobility. Two awesome jumps and an equally awesome UpB allows Toon Link to move about the stage with ease. Combined with his floatiness, you can aerial and/or fire projectile attacks AND get to where you want to go without much trouble. Olimar on the other hand has two jumps but has difficulty combining those with effective offense.

I think the most favorable part of the stage for Toon Link, however, is there are so many angles to attack your opponent. The fact that you have far more control over the trajectory of your projectiles than Olimar has over his, allows you to hit him from a lot more angles. And this stage allows you to do that. You can angle your boomerangs and manipulate your bomb throws a lot better than Olimar can choose how to throw his Pikmin. You don't even need to rely on projectiles on this stage, though. Toon Link's amazing aerials will swat Olimar around to your great satisfaction. On neutral stages this is difficult to do because of his wall of Pikmin blocking your approach. On Rainbow Cruise, you can attack from underneath and above to add to your approach angles. I'm not gonna lie: it felt really good to swat the little bugger around with aerials over and over again.

Also, a lot of the platforms on this stage are angle which means: DOWN SMASH TIME. I was able to net a surprise kill on him using the first strike of the down smash.

When you play this stage, make it a point to move around. He'll have difficulty trying to target you with projectiles, so fire away and get up on his nuts. Olimar isn't used to fighting up close, but you are (should be). Be especially mobile near the end of the stage cycle, where the ceiling is very low and he has space to spam his Pikmin. Keep moving and the Olimar should get flustered enough to weaken his game.

Granted, I was only able to play 5 matches on the stage, but I feel like I can say that Olimar is a disadvantage on this stage. I only lost once, and it was mostly because at the last part of the cycle where you have to drop down to the beginning ship. I dashed and tripped, couldn't get up quick enough and the stage killed me .


As a side note: When Olimar uses his little Pikmin Command or whatever (he blows his whistle and rearranges the Pikmin, based on color), he gains super-armor frames in the air. So he's difficult to swat around for too long, but he'll still take damage. Just fyi.

Oh and what do you guys think the matchup ratio is?

On neutral stages, I'd give it to Olimar at least 6:4, if not 7:3.

I'd say 5:5, 6:4 Olimar (maybe). I have versed some pretty hardcore Olimar mainers and I manage to win in a best 2 of 3, but it was on wifi, so who knows XD.