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My Marth Vids (dittos vs emblem lord) UPDATEDx4

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Hey guys, these are some wifi vids I recorded with my new dazzle - please note emblem lord makes me look worse than I like to think I am >.>

Edit: Added new vids against someone else.

Vs. Emblem Lord

6/6/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu0grO3EeN8 Match 1

6/13/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziIbzP98ZKI Match 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IE2pmwfi1Y Match 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZpUbhpTtSo Match 4

6/14/08

Vs. Ace (Link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXPL-w1q13M Match 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0qVy-aVq5Y Match 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnj12TZ-VOM Match 3

Vs. BananaTrooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8SXRKaN-2I vs. Captain Falcon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckK8kbotHdA vs. Ike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_HlrTo2N7g vs. Marth

6/16/08

Vs. Shamoo (Ganon), best of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuffK4ZpQPs Match 1 (this match was bad >.>)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swXaGAckrVs Match 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqApoh7-SJQ Match 3

6/17/08

Vs. Anther, best of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1slA__wrn4 vs. Pikachu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONZ-ZidfIG8 vs. Ice Climbers

6/22/08

Vs. KAi!! (vs. Falcon)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLoEFWdT2Lw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvWrIPN3F-A


Let me know what you guys think, please critique ^_^
 

ixdnL

Smash Journeyman
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only watched the first vid.
emblem lord doesnt really throw out a lot of moves but he makes his moves count.

i loved that DB exchange at 2:00
 

feardragon64

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****...Your guys' fights are so mind-game intense...
And ya, agreed with above. Emblem only throws out dtilts as throw away attacks a few times. Other than that, seems like everything is so tactically planned X_X. But both of you guys are so tactical. I feel like half the battle is you guys waiting for the other to make a move, and the other half is you guys responding to each other. xD

But emblem lord doesn't do anything when he's grabbed. You just keep hitting him X_X (like in the third video around 2:05). Iono, seemed a bit weird to me >>

And I think only really criticism is that I think a few times you guys edge-hogged the other, and you may have been able to get past it with a dancing blade stall. But I could be wrong, and it could have just been wifi.

Thanks for posting these vids though ^_^ Nice to see what you and emblem lord are like! xD

P.S. I think the best thing I like about both of your marth's is that I can't predict what you guys are going to do. It's brilliant =]
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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****...Your guys' fights are so mind-game intense...
And ya, agreed with above. Emblem only throws out dtilts as throw away attacks a few times. Other than that, seems like everything is so tactically planned X_X. But both of you guys are so tactical. I feel like half the battle is you guys waiting for the other to make a move, and the other half is you guys responding to each other. xD

But emblem lord doesn't do anything when he's grabbed. You just keep hitting him X_X (like in the third video around 2:05). Iono, seemed a bit weird to me >>

And I think only really criticism is that I think a few times you guys edge-hogged the other, and you may have been able to get past it with a dancing blade stall. But I could be wrong, and it could have just been wifi.

Thanks for posting these vids though ^_^ Nice to see what you and emblem lord are like! xD

P.S. I think the best thing I like about both of your marth's is that I can't predict what you guys are going to do. It's brilliant =]
Thanks for the comments ^_^

And when I was just grab pounding him that's an easy way to rack up some damage when they are at a high percent. I can usually end it with a killing move after I let go, but he predicted it and rolled away. D:
 

VietGeek

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**** I got dial-up and now Emblem Lord and Steel2nd have vids up? <_<

Sigh, well, I'll critique in the morning I guess. But from what feardragon said, it seems these matches are going to be pretty sexy...

I'll have to take some notes...

EDIT 1.5:

But emblem lord doesn't do anything when he's grabbed. You just keep hitting him X_X (like in the third video around 2:05). Iono, seemed a bit weird to me >>
Constant hit stun from the jab makes it impossible to get out early except by the gmae dictating when Marth has to grab release. It's a good tactic to rack up damage. Any player with any knowledge of how Marths generally operate will of course roll away though. It doesn't really give you a positional advantage, but more of keeping a positional neutral that just lets you rack up free damage.

Hmm, I first sight, Emblem Lord plays a very laid-back sort of playstyle. This is the type of playstyle he suggests being used in Marth dittos. Use low-lag attacks as buffers, map out positional advantages, and retaliate with side-B above all else. Basically, being a patient Marth.

Already within seconds, I can assume that you, Steel2nd, are probably the more aggro Marth generally. I'm watching the third battle though, so I'm not sure how the "first encounter" was.

It's funny how matches like these are usually considered dull, yet others with high-paced action but little actual regard to spacing and options are so praised. I can see why Melee is so popular; it gives people both. Unfortunately, I have yet to see that sort of aspect from Brawl. Yet.
 

∫unk

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This is going to get so many views ><

wifi sucks. There was some obvious moments where both of you were getting gimped when you shouldn't have been.

One thing I noticed in the 2 matches I watched were both of you could avoid getting edge hogged if you dancing blade stalled before dolphin slash so invincibility wears out. You obviously don't do it ever time but it's a mix up tactic.

Edit: I noticed both of you were using stuff discussed on these forums lol
 

Suoinegni

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I'm gonna keep this short since posting on Wii is really tedious.

But wow... I feel really inadequate now. Everything looked choreographed and planned out. It wasn't the most exciting thing, but it was still great. I don't use dtilt enough. D=

The only thing I noticed was all the edgehogging. Like feardragon64 said, it probably could've been prevented with a DB stall. But good stuff nonetheless. I wouldn't mind getting wrecked by one of you sometime.
 

Steel

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Yeah the edge hugging was the suck. And yeah, dancing blade probably would have helped sometimes.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Already within seconds, I can assume that you, Steel2nd, are probably the more aggro Marth generally. I'm watching the third battle though, so I'm not sure how the "first encounter" was.
Yet.
Yes, previously I was usually an aggressive marth. I've changed my play style however and now I prefer the more patient approach.
 

∫unk

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Huh? We're talking about avoiding the edge guard by using dancing blade to stall, also EL kept ****** you with the dropdown f-air.

Maybe you couldn't react to it on wifi but you got hit by that soo many times ><

You also were losing because you weren't punishing. EL used ledge drop double jump counter a few times and even on the times you knew it was coming and didn't attack all you would do is grab. Similarly when EL tried to kill you with Dolphin Slash and missed all you did was a 4% grab after... twice in a row T_T
 

Emblem Lord

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Our connection was pretty good. I was able to react to things pretty well most of the time.

I could critique these vids if you guys want.
 

∫unk

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btw what's with this new formatting on smash boards it ***** my sig T-T

edit: thread hijack/completely OT: EL I played a good peach the other day. I remember you talking about them in your matchup thread. Man glide-toss to grab/jab combo/dash attack is sooo annoying. Fortunately air dodge catches turnips...

double edit: i didn't actually respond to what i wanted to haha.. DO ITTTTTT
 

Emblem Lord

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To change your format back just go to edit options in your UserCP. Then change the Post tip from top to left. It should be back to what it was before.

So am I analyzing these vids or not?
 

feardragon64

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I could critique these vids if you guys want.
Who are you asking? Seems like you're asking everyone though I would think you would be asking steel since obviously you're fine with critiquing the match and steel's the other one who you would want consent on to critique it.

Although I doubt he'd say no to it =b.

If he says yes, then I say go for it =]
 

Zankoku

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Whoa, if I Wifi Emblem Lord will I get a lot of critique on my vids too? :D
 

Emblem Lord

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Ok then.

I haven't looked over the 4th vid yet, so Ill go over that one.

00:14 - I manage to DI out the 4th down b of the DB, but I don't punish it. Sloppy on my part. It was also sloppy on Steel2nd's part to even go for the 4th down b hit on another Marth. It's a fact that Marth easilt DIes out of it and can up b out of it on hit. We both screwed up here.

00:16 - He gets the hit off, but doesn't finish the DB. Small mistake, but still important.

00:42 - I went for a grab and I shouldn't have done that. I should have just used Dolphin Slash.

00:46 - Screwed up here. Steel2nd took a risk with ShieldBreaker. It really wasn't worth it IMO. I should have punished with something good, but instead I go for a grab and it misses. Poor choices on both our parts.

00:48 - Steel2nd had a free DB after the d-tilt, but he messed up. Even then he pressured me enough that I was afraid and shielding. He could have took advantage of that either, went for the grab, or pressured my shield with a tilt. Instead he opted to roll away which reset the fight back to neutral, giving up his advantage. On a side not I roll towards him after this which was also a poor choice. A better opponent would have taken advantage of that.

00:55 - Poor spacing on the ledge and I eat a get up attack from Steel2nd.

01:00 - Same thing happens again.

01:04 - He takes a risk in attacking me. I play it safe and shield then I net a free grab. This was a mistake on Steel2nd's part. But then when I get positioning advantage I screw it up by going for a risky F-smash and I end up missing it. For this I am punished.

01:13 - I just take a guess here and figure he will try to attack and I spotdodge. I go for a grab and follow-up with some grab hits before I d-throw. This is good since it gets my opponent on the ledge and gives me the advantage.

01:19 - I fail to punish that ledgehopped fair and Steel fails to punish my mistake. Although he really shouldn't have ledgehopped fair anyway. It was a very risky move.

01:22 - I have went for the u-smash here and Steel took a huge risk in going for the D-smash and it wouldn't even have payed off since I'm not killing range at this point. He would have been better off with a d-tilt.

01:25 - I just screw up royally here. I messed up my gimp, help him to recover and fail to grab the ledge. Epic failure.

01:33 - Steel got scared and I knew he would. I read him easily.

01:40 - I do a good job of keeping Steel off the stage and forcing him to get past my ledge game and then he gets out it, so kudos to him.

01:52 - Could have punished that D-smash but I was too slow.

From 1:55 to 02:34 - I get gimped here and from then on Steel does a solid job of controlling me and reading me. As a result a take 41% in damage before I regain control of the fight. Evenutally I decide to just aggro him thinking that since I'm fairly close I can overwhelm him quickly. It works and then he is forced to contend with my ledge game. I time my F-smash to hit him the moment his invincibility wears off. He gets tippered and dies.

02:40 - This time I'm on point with punishing his DB with my own after I shield his assault.

02:59 - I manage to turn the tide. I use the Dolphin Slash to knock Steel behind me. This is a complete role reversal. I go from being at a big disadvantage to a big advantage. I take advantage of my err uhh advantage. I get in some good damage vs him, enough to give me a solid lead.

03:17 - I messed up badly here and by all rights I should have lost the match here. I would have if Steel's edgeguarding was better. But I manage to get back to the ledge. At this point Steel should have just DIed back and forward b stalled so he wouldn't put himself in a bad position to eat an attack. But he does up b to the stage and get an f-smash for the win.


Marth dittos are hard to analyze since Marth can't play his normal game, but it's great for training certain aspects of your game. These aspects are

1)Gimping
2)Safe shield pressure
3)Avoiding gimps
4)Punishing
5)Move counters
6)Ground game

All this stuff is pretty self-explanatory except for move counters. That's just my way of referring to moves that naturally beat other moves. For example, D-tilt will lose to SH aerials. Why? Because d-tilt hits low and with a SH aerial you will jump over the d-tilt to attack. F-smash beats DB thanks to range the F-smash has. Things like this are very important to know in Marth dittos and in match-ups where characters have compareable range to Marth or even more range to Marth.

Overall we can see that it's just my experience and overall knowledge of Marth that gets me the win vs Steel2nd. I also play safer, take far less risks, and my edgeugarding is better.

In summary I'm the better player. But if you watch the vids from the first time we played to the very last vid you can see the evolution in his play style. You may also notice that his aggressive style begins to change into my much more passive style.

Now, this isn't to say that aggression is bad, I just prefer to be passive and use my abilities to control my opponents movement and actions. This makes it MUCH easier for me to read my opponent. Whenever I hit Steel seemingly out of the blue with an attack, that attack isn't random. More often then not I put Steel into a position where he had very few options so all I had to do was choose was an option to either cover all of the options he had at his disposal or just do something to cover his best option. Either way the situation is in my favor and odds are I will get in my hit if I play my cards right. Not to say my opponent can't get out of those situations, but it takes a clear head and quick decision making to deal with being at a disadvantageous situation.

Also this is out of the blue, but you have gotten alot better Steel2nd in such a short amount of time.

Props to you. ^_^

Anyway is there anything that anyone would like me to elaborate on?
 

ixdnL

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ahh steel what happened to you in the second stock vs you and ace? =[
 

alchfilosofer

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Did you know about Dair can help you to survive if used wile you're smashed upwards ( it don't helps to survive for much %, and other characters can also dair to survive) ?. And in the link match, I think he was quite predictable whit his smashes and you could counter them. I also see none C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER of the dolpin slash in ground (not like you had many times to use this well, but still...). But any way, you're an amassing marth. Just 1 question, why no marth use the dancing blade at the peak of 2cond jump to recover? I mean, come on it's useful and could helped against the edge grabbers
 

BananaTrooper

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Lol steel, you shoulda told me I was being recorded lol. GGs, sorry I had to bail out on the last match.

Critiques are welcome for me as well, just dont judge my ike from that 1 vid please :bee:. I did terribly that 1 match only :psycho:
 

BananaTrooper

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Anytime man, and by that I mean anytime after next week (**** me, exams all next week; i was lucky to get to squeeze in some matches today).

Steel: Woops, forgot to critique :laugh:. There's little I can say, but 2 things seem to stick out for me. 1, you're a little too camp happy, and 2. you seem to miss opportunities to punish mistakes. Thats it really.
 

Emblem Lord

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Meep, you and I really need to start talking on AIM.

I want to start talking to all the Marth players and get their ideas of Marth's metagame as well as their thoughts on his match-ups and tier placing.

GET AT ME DAT AIM SON!!!!
 

Doodx

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wow i realy dont enjoy marth dittos but this one seemed intense
so many mindgames to reach each other trying to poke each other...
btw you guys are much more aggressive with other characters except marth right?? cuz i am much more aggresive with other characters than marth
i think im gonna post some vids soon since i cant play u guys:(
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Lol steel, you shoulda told me I was being recorded lol. GGs, sorry I had to bail out on the last match.

Critiques are welcome for me as well, just dont judge my ike from that 1 vid please :bee:. I did terribly that 1 match only :psycho:
Ah sorry, and I would have put a better Ike vid of you up but that was the only one I recorded and wanted to have one of each character.

GG's btw.
 

3xSwords

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At first I thought the matches sucked b/c I was trying to learn something and you really can't learn mindgames which they were full of XD. But EL's analysis definetely helped me learn something and realize how deep the matches were. Although still it was a little boring for me to watch b/c it was just poking at each other until you found an opening. And EL would you say shieldbreaker isn't a good poke move in a marth ditto b/c of post lag? or did you just not use it as much in the fourth match compared to the others?
 

En.Ee.Oh

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banana i f-air u a lot in marth dittos o_O



these vids bored me tbh, too much predictable dancing blade spam (an approach that is pretty easy to dodge if it's spammed) and turtling



to each their own tho
 

crazn137

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Ehh, so looking at these vids makes me want to improve my Marth so much more!! Think I could play a wifi match against someone for advice/criticism? =3
 
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