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New discovery: Infinite jumping with most characters! (STOP POSTING, USE NEW THREAD)

G

Gazebo

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Character list, and superior thread:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173119


Please go to the other thread. Dont post here, this thread is old and not up to date.


This is based on recent findings posted in following marth thread:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172534

Credit to 3xSwords for the discovery, Makkun for doing a ton of testing.

=======================================================

VIDEO:

=======================================================

Done correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dDtVaWjIys
Done almost correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_NzJvRsVlo

The one that's "almost" correct is a few frames off.

=======================================================

BASICS:

=======================================================


TERMS:
SJR - Second Jump Renewal
ISJR - Infinite Second Jump Renewal.

Summary by Ekaru:

Ekaru said:
Summary time!

Summary:

1. SJR is done by timing an aerial so it ends a certain amount of time before it hits the ground, then buffering a jump at the end of the aerial.
There are some exceptions for characters with mad high second jumps, but this is generally how it works.

2. When done correctly, the # of air jumps left counter is reset, and one is taken away for the SJR.
This means that characters like meta knight with multiple jumps reset their jump counter, minus one for the SJR.

3. ISJR is performed by doing a SJR out of the double jump of the pervious SJR, and can be done continiously.

4. SJR can be done with any move, but ISJR can only be done with certain moves.
Depending on how long the move takes to perform.

5. An example of an ISJR is Charizard's uair, and is probably one of the easiest to learn. Charizard can also do it with his fair and bair, not sure about nair.

6. Some characters have a long enough double jump that they can do ANY aerial for a ISJR. Yoshi is an example of this.

7. Apparently can't be done with specials or air dodges.
Can be done with some specials, maybe. No real evidence for it.

8. This move requires practice to do consistently.

9. If you whine about someone ISJRing in a match against you because they beat you, I'll blow your house up. EDIT: With you in it.
I don't see the SJR as being very practical, personally, because of the ridiculously small input time. But if you can get the hang of it, sure.

10. Out of a SJR/ISJR, you can choose to air dodge, land, do a special, or use another air jump if you have one. You do NOT have to continue the ISJR.

11. In order for a move to be ISJRable, it must be at least one frame less than the amount of time the character is in the air after a SJR.
Not sure about the frame data, and there are exceptions, but generally if a move ends just around when you're about to hit the ground you can SJR out of it.

- Credit for much of this goes to Makkun.
Click to expand...

=======================================================

OLDER STUFF:

=======================================================


The timing is really ridiculous, but I can confirm that you can infinite jump with an aerial attack if you input it around the peak of your second jump.

Ive only tested this with tink, marth, and ROB, and didn't get it to work "properly" with ROB (explained later), but tink's fair and bair work (havent tested nair or uair) , as well as marth's fair nair and bair (havent tested uair, dair may work but it seems unlinkely.)

The move should allow you to infinite-jump properly if you can manage to do another "second jump" after you hit the ground. It's kind of weird, it's easier to see if you do this:

As marth in training mode, jump, do a double jump near the ground (comparable to an l cancel in melee), and then fair near the peak of your jump. Press jump again as you near the ground, and what will likely happen is after you hit the ground, marth will do a backflip, basically just repeating his second jump. This isn't very snazzy and isn't a true "infinite jump", but if a character can do this, I'm almost sure that the move used near the peak of the second jump (in this case, marth's fair) can cancel the jump into a true infinite-jump without the character touching the ground.

I'm almost sure that the move leads to infinite jumps because all of the moves that I tried that I could successfully get to infinite jump could do this - this is what leads me to believe that rob can infini-jump. I don't have any methods of getting a clear picture and camera quality is absolute garbage, so sorry about the lack of video proof.

From what I could tell, it did not work with moves that change your momentum (such as tink's dair, or ROB's dair or bair), or with moves that don't complete with enough time to spare for you to jump.

This probably won't have much use because it seems to be a single frame during which you can cancel the move, but it CAN work more than once consecutively (done with tink's bair), and looks pretty snazzy. It might lead to some more jump discoveries.

EDIT:
Your jump height does not matter, theres a specific frame (may be two, but the difficulty of successfully pulling this off leads me to believe that its one frame) during which pulling out the attack allows you to jump before hitting the ground.

You cant press jump too early or you wind up hitting the ground and doing a regular jump.

[If you press jump right before hitting the ground, it either works or you do your "second jump" off the ground. It's really weird but the animation of the second jump plays and you cant jump again, but the jump comes off of the ground if you miss the "sweet" frame by a little.] this is what I meant to demonstrate with the bit with the marth in the OP.

It is signficantly easier with tap jump turned on.

I'll add a list of moves and stuff when I have time, but I don't think that it's too important. as long as the move ends before you land and doesnt completely mess up your momentum, it should be fine.

As explained by Panda:

SamuraiPanda said:
Okay, so I finally figured it out. Basically, the infinite second jump is buffering your jump from your aerial attack AS you're landing. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, go try doing a full hop rising Fair with Marth, and buffer the second jump from the Fair. When you buffer correctly, you are inputting the jump command near the end of the Fair animation, and when the animation ends you instantly jump. Take note of that timing. The ISJ is just timing your aerial and the buffered jump so when you do the aerial in the second jump and you buffer the jump as you land on the stage, the jump will execute as the second jump completely skipping the landing animation and first jump altogether. If you time it incorrectly, you'll end up landing first then jumping, or not jumping at all.

Why does it do this? Well, I assume the engine is reading the different inputs at the same time. The game must think that at that one moment in time you are both simultaneously on the ground while still being in the air. Meaning it refreshes your jumps (because it reads you as being on the ground) but it does the second jump instead of the first (because if you jump while you are in the air, you should be doing the second jump).

As for who can do it and what aerials you can do it with, well, I think the best way to test it is using the full hop rising aerial to the buffered jump method that I described above. If it is possible to do the ISJ, then that means that the length of their second jump must be enough for the character to perform the aerial and buffer the jump. Some slow attacks, like Ganon's Fair, can't buffer the jump from his Fair in the entire length of the full hop, nor his second jump, thus he cannot do the ISJ with his Fair. But he can do the ISJ with his Dair (I did it once after trying for 10 minutes), which seems promising (btw, I had to change to the A stick to do that so I wouldn't fast fall doing the Dair). In addition, this should theoretically be possible for all aerial B attacks as well, and is simply a matter of timing. We already know some people, like Bowser and Kirby, can do this with some of their B attacks with very easy timing. Oh yeah, you can also do this while fast falling too, so that could make the timing a bit easier, and make the ISJ even faster, for some characters with attacks that can do that (I was able to do this FFISJ with Wario's Fair).

Note: I just realized after I typed that paragraph up that I was referring to being able to do the ISJ with a single attack over and over again. But if you just want to do one single ISJ, you could just time an attack that has alot of lag so that the jump buffers at the right time when you land. But you can't repeat that one attack again with the ISJ.

Note 2: I've also forgotten to mention that if you tap the jump button twice very fast, you'll nearly instantly do the second jump from your standing animation. So you can do the ISJ right off the bat if you can time it.

In order to do this consistently, you will have to learn the buffer times of you character's attacks VERY well. That is likely the only requirement to do this. Can it be done? Maybe. But its difficult. Doing this consistently requires better timing than L-canceling and Wavedashing put together. Fast falling may make this a bit easier (as you're controlling the timing yourself), but I didn't extensively test it.

As for applications of the ISJ and/or the FFISJ, well, assuming you can become very consistent at timing this perfectly, it could possibly bring juggling to Brawl, a new way to approach, or a great way to avoid getting grabbed (IC's changrab is scary :/), among other possibilities. Could it change the metagame completely? Maybe. Of course, this is only if its even possible to master this technique.


Although I do have to say that this is one of the few true advanced techniques that has been discovered thus far. By the way, I apologize if this was hard to understand or follow along anywhere. I'm quite tired and I shouldn't really be spending my time doing this right now, so I'm in a bit of a rush.
Click to expand...
 
3xSwords

3xSwords

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Its definetely not buffering a jump. I would know I discovered it :laugh: But yeah its funny how I was just saying I might put my thread in the tactical discussion. Then *boom* there is already one lol. Really surprised me. You still didn't explain what you did with ROB.
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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People seriously need to get some video stuff going on here so we can determine the usefulness of this. If this is what I imagine it to be like, then it could have some potential.
 
F

fkacyan

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SamuraiPanda said:
People seriously need to get some video stuff going on here so we can determine the usefulness of this. If this is what I imagine it to be like, then it could have some potential.
Click to expand...
It would make walls of pain with certain characters much better / viable.

I'd say test this with Peach, very easy to distinguish her different jumps.
 
lonewolfe

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It definitely works, and it blew my mind when I did it with Marth's bair. I did a SH bair to a full jump and bair at the peak of the jump, then just jump again.

But mastering it sounds insanely difficult. Just getting it to work the first time takes a few tries, and then you have to repeat it.

EDIT: I would upload video if my digital camera wasn't missing....
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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I can get it with the Fair, Bair, and Nair, but I can't do any of them consistently. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up (especially not my own) but if this technique is really universal to every character and is able to be done consistently.... then I could potentially technical skill being part of Brawl later on. Can you imagine hitting someone with Marth's Fair, then fast falling into this infinite second jump (ISJ sounds like a good acronym :D) to hit them again and again? Juggling FTW.

Like I said, I'm reserving judgment of how useful this is until we clear up some of the details, like how to do it consistently, who can do it, etc. There are just too many what-ifs right now.
 
T

Talvi

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In Melee Teching was incredibly difficult, as some wavedashings, short hopping and, even more, combining those at any time and do it like if you were playing normally. Seeing how Brawl is much more slow paced, it shouldn't be difficult to master this if it has some or any userfulness.
 
lonewolfe

lonewolfe

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Well, I recorded a match/me practicing, and I finally get it at the end, but I can't upload it....but if someone wanted me to send it to them, let me know.

But I'm sure many of you have done it by now and have the means to upload your own...
 
manhunter098

manhunter098

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Well I think the usefulness will depend on how quickly a character can attack after landing, since with some attacks I think there is going to be more potential in autocanceling the moves rather than doing this, but I wouldnt doubt that it might have potential for a few characters.

Also being limited to one frame isnt too bad, its means its probably doable with some reliability (Im pretty sure Falco's silent laser is limited to one frame, and I can do that reliably). However if there is actually two frames to do this in...then its like heaven on earth, well in Brawl anyways.


Somebody does need to save this to a replay and send it to someone who can record it.
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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Okay, so I finally figured it out. Basically, the infinite second jump is buffering your jump from your aerial attack AS you're landing. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, go try doing a full hop rising Fair with Marth, and buffer the second jump from the Fair. When you buffer correctly, you are inputting the jump command near the end of the Fair animation, and when the animation ends you instantly jump. Take note of that timing. The ISJ is just timing your aerial and the buffered jump so when you do the aerial in the second jump and you buffer the jump as you land on the stage, the jump will execute as the second jump completely skipping the landing animation and first jump altogether. If you time it incorrectly, you'll end up landing first then jumping, or not jumping at all.

Why does it do this? Well, I assume the engine is reading the different inputs at the same time. The game must think that at that one moment in time you are both simultaneously on the ground while still being in the air. Meaning it refreshes your jumps (because it reads you as being on the ground) but it does the second jump instead of the first (because if you jump while you are in the air, you should be doing the second jump).

As for who can do it and what aerials you can do it with, well, I think the best way to test it is using the full hop rising aerial to the buffered jump method that I described above. If it is possible to do the ISJ, then that means that the length of their second jump must be enough for the character to perform the aerial and buffer the jump. Some slow attacks, like Ganon's Fair, can't buffer the jump from his Fair in the entire length of the full hop, nor his second jump, thus he cannot do the ISJ with his Fair. But he can do the ISJ with his Dair (I did it once after trying for 10 minutes), which seems promising (btw, I had to change to the A stick to do that so I wouldn't fast fall doing the Dair). In addition, this should theoretically be possible for all aerial B attacks as well, and is simply a matter of timing. We already know some people, like Bowser and Kirby, can do this with some of their B attacks with very easy timing. Oh yeah, you can also do this while fast falling too, so that could make the timing a bit easier, and make the ISJ even faster, for some characters with attacks that can do that (I was able to do this FFISJ with Wario's Fair).

Note: I just realized after I typed that paragraph up that I was referring to being able to do the ISJ with a single attack over and over again. But if you just want to do one single ISJ, you could just time an attack that has alot of lag so that the jump buffers at the right time when you land. But you can't repeat that one attack again with the ISJ.

Note 2: I've also forgotten to mention that if you tap the jump button twice very fast, you'll nearly instantly do the second jump from your standing animation. So you can do the ISJ right off the bat if you can time it.

In order to do this consistently, you will have to learn the buffer times of you character's attacks VERY well. That is likely the only requirement to do this. Can it be done? Maybe. But its difficult. Doing this consistently requires better timing than L-canceling and Wavedashing put together. Fast falling may make this a bit easier (as you're controlling the timing yourself), but I didn't extensively test it.

As for applications of the ISJ and/or the FFISJ, well, assuming you can become very consistent at timing this perfectly, it could possibly bring juggling to Brawl, a new way to approach, or a great way to avoid getting grabbed (IC's changrab is scary :/), among other possibilities. Could it change the metagame completely? Maybe. Of course, this is only if its even possible to master this technique.


Although I do have to say that this is one of the few true advanced techniques that has been discovered thus far. By the way, I apologize if this was hard to understand or follow along anywhere. I'm quite tired and I shouldn't really be spending my time doing this right now, so I'm in a bit of a rush.
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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Well, this isn't really based on characters, its more their attacks. And also, its theoretically possible to do a single ISJ from any attack in the game, but you can't repeatedly do the ISJ from every attack. Attacks that you can do the ISJ over and over again with are generally faster attacks, i.e. ones that autocancel. I think that the list of attacks that can be autocanceled should also apply to attacks that you can do the ISJ with. Although I'm not sure if the ISJ is limited to attacks that can be autocanceled.

I'm not sure I like the name infinite second jump for this, as I've established its theoretically possible to do this only one time with certain attacks.
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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Interesting. I went to find a video to remind people what Bowser's infinite jump looked like in case they forgot, but in this video ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=p1wx0bz_6FQ ) it looks like Bowser players have been using the ISJ for quite some time now, and can do it very easily with his regular attacks along with his B attacks. Yet nobody bothered to figure out why, or seemed to realize that all characters can do it. I'd love to see someone consistently do a rising aerial to a fast fall to the ISJ. That could potentially make some attacks absolutely amazing and speed the game up. Of course, thats only if this is as useful as I'm thinking it could possibly be.
 
A

acv

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if it is mastered it could give potencial advantage to the player who knows how to do it over the person who doesnt like the wavedash.brawl is going to start looking a little bit more like melee.
 
F

Fiz

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haha amazing , when I first saw it on the marth forums I knew it is going to be good :), I really hope that it will actually be useful:)
 
SamuraiPanda

SamuraiPanda

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I took the liberty of adding the "New Discovery" in the title by myself. This could potentially be important, so it wouldn't be good if people just ignored the topic. And yes, I know this isn't a new discovery as it is more of an explanation of an old one, but applied to other characters.
 
bigman40

bigman40

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It'll be easier to others w/o a lond DJ, but the ones with it, it's pretty much a necessity to fastfall the aerial to make it work. I've been able to do it a few times with yoshi, fastfalling the Nair, Fair, and Bair. I'm pretty sure that I have to fastfall the uair also. So People who are intending to try out ness, lucas, and maybe falco will need to fastfall their aerials to help.
 
O

orintemple

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Wow, this could change the face of Brawl forever. I need to try this out now. It seems really rought though. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it is basically Bowser's infinite jump but with other attacks? The timing sounds tighter than Bowser's jump though.

I can't wait to see useful applications for this, if there will be any.
 
bigman40

bigman40

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The timing is I think the same, but if not, it's harder. You have to be about the same height to the ground as bowser's infinite.
 
TheGlitchMaster

TheGlitchMaster

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See, i knew that Brawl would have a weird AT kinda like Wavedashing!
But it's not like wavedashing!
Shut up Randy.
 
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