Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

TheReflexWonder · May 19, 2008

Someone in the General PT discussion suggested this, and I guess I wouldn't mind updating this first post, if needed at all. We already have those "Fanclubs" but those were on the last page and weren't generating the exact kind of discussion I think would be of any benifit.

Notable Responses:

On Switching:

Wyvern said:
If the matchup allows it, I do often like to switch to Charizard before my damage starts getting too high to boost survival time, but I'm starting to find that if you haven't done it by about 120 or so, it's usually better to just ride it out as Ivysaur regardless of fatigue. Switching to Charizard and getting KOed immediately really sucks, because then you're stuck as Squirtle with a still-tired Ivysaur on the bench. If you just keep Ivysaur until the end, you still have a decent chance of KOing with the better kill moves in spite of being tired, and even if you can't, Razor Leaf, Bullet Seed, and bairs can build up an impressive amount of damage even through fatigue. When you do finally kick the bucket, Charizard will be able to finish the job in no time, and then you have the choice of sticking with him or going to Squirtle and Ivysaur will still be fresh by the time you come back.

On Bair:

PopeOfChiliTown said:
Bair is actually the best rush down move Ivysaur has, and it's a doozy. Floaty/light characters are stifled by this, since they leave the ground from the vine hits at lower %s than other characters. The point is to not forget that bair is not the goal, but the means. Too many times I've seen Ivysaur players continue to bair spam when they had opportunities for other things, like fsmash or grabbing, etc. It's a whole new area of gameplay, to watch how people react when in the midst of a bair assault, so you can learn how to counter every scenario.

The only great preference I have is Red Ivysaur. The color of the bulb is fantastic.

When people use somewhat-standard texture hacks, I like to use blue for Team Aqua.

Fearmy · May 19, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
Someone in the General PT discussion suggested this, and I guess I wouldn't mind updating this first post, if needed at all. We already have those "Fanclubs" but those were on the last page and weren't generating the exact kind of discussion I think would be of any benifit. I figure it would be helpful to have something along these lines for all three Pokemon, yet we'll see how far this one goes before another one is added.

Seeing as Ivysaur has a tenacious habit of getting destroyed once it's off-stage, I think that would be a good place to start the discussion. How do you deal with being off stage?

Snipe them with Razor leaf.

Rauzaruke · May 19, 2008

Obviously my first intention is getting on that **** ledge before someone else decides that they want to "hang out" for a while. Many people underestimate the speed and range of the vine whip, so if I'm close enough to the edge while in free fall, I don't even use my double jump to recover. I always try to go for the whip first if I can.

Ratherion · May 19, 2008

Once you're on the edge you're pretty much golden, because if they're off of it you can bair spam them for about 40% before they manage to get back on.

As for Ivy, DI-Nair > Bullet seed is a beastly combo

Retro Gaming · May 19, 2008

As far as the Razor Leaf goes, if your opponent knows the start they'll edge drop and jump back up to renew invincibility frames before it hits.

Normally, if I'm close enough, then I'll just Fair them. Plus, a lot of people do mistake it's range, and they'll get back up too soon. At least, in my experience. so its good to save it if you know it's going to miss.

Edge- Bair's are nice, but I prefer to do them once the opponent is on the edge. Don't like the idea of it coming back and biting me later.

senjiroth · May 20, 2008

im a dedicated pokemon trainer but i dont know much about ivysaur... but another option is to wait for that invincibility frames to fade then hit them with ivy's might whip so ur opponent will go with you...

but most of the time like everyone say save ur 2nd jump and use razor leaf to get ur opponent off the ledge..

Retro Gaming · May 20, 2008

That should be last cast scenario, since it's usually more useful to preserve your stock than it is to lose it.

Http · May 20, 2008

How to deal with Ivysaur's crappy everything when off the stage: Don't keep Ivy past 90-100%. Personally, since I started to pick up PT a little, I like to start with Ivy, rack on some damage, then when Ivysaur gets to about 90-100%, I switch and let Charizard do the rest. I try to take the first stock with Ivysaur, but my suckocity at the moment prevents me from doing that D;

senjiroth · May 20, 2008

start with Ivy, rack on some damage, then when Ivysaur gets to about 90-100%, I switch and let Charizard do the rest

thats actually a good idea...

That should be last cast scenario, since it's usually more useful to preserve your stock than it is to lose it.

im just saying its an option... its really hard to recover with tether so yea...

i

PkTrainerCris · May 20, 2008

Well something i keep in mind when playing ivysaur is that he is more defensive than ofensive, because of the long range in his attacks that involve vines, good priority, a very good spacing game and the capability of attacking from a very safe distance with razor leaf, so normally i play ivysaur at the center of the stage racking up damage and getting hit the less i can, also, i too start with ivysaur and switch to charizard at high percents

chubas · May 20, 2008

It has happened to me, and some other PTs that I know: if you always spam razor leaf, opponent will just dodge/jump/reflect/whatever it and then edgehug.
What I try, in order:
- Recover. Up-B if I see the opportunity and opponent is not edgehugging or in the process. Fortunately, vine whip comes fast enough, not as Olimar for example.
- If they edgehug while passing the edge level, razor leaf or fair, just waiting a little for the invincibilty frames to pass
- If I can't do that, just wait a little, people usually roll back to stage, and Ivy's range is good to recover from the abyss.
- Try to hit it with vine whip
- Fall quickly to my death ...

Revolutionary1804 · May 21, 2008

i like to use ivy as somewhat of a martyr. i start with charizard and he usually takes one stock from the opponent. as he dies i switch to squirtle (my worst by far) and try and get some dmg in but he usually dies early. when ivy comes out its really 50 50 as to what can happen. razor leaf i think has too long of a lag and not long enough of a hitstun so i use it sparingly. the best methods attack with him is his grab imo. bullet seed FTW wenever possible. and then when he dies charizard comes back and handles the rest: flamethrower and rock smash FTW.

OGsloane · May 21, 2008

Off stage with ivysaur, i use razor leaf alot. It bounces you a little and can get the opponent off the ledge. I play olimar and its kind of the same, waiting until their invincibilty frames are gone, hit them and then immediately tether to safety. It gets annoying and impatience can get to you, but i think its the best way to recover.

Tenki · May 21, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
Seeing as Ivysaur has a tenacious habit of getting destroyed once it's off-stage, I think that would be a good place to start the discussion.

Yey, an Ivy Discussion thread!

The f-air instead of Razor Leaf when possible is probably the best answer I've seen here so far xD

Might want to put the topic and dates for the topic in the title, too. like "Ivysaur Tactical Discussion (5/21: Tilts)" and have the previous topic/good answers pasted into the first post.

Cat Fight · May 21, 2008

Seems like a lot of people want to discuss Ivysaur's recovery - haha.

Mmm... It's pretty easy to lure yr opponent with a retreating pivot razor leaf.

After you connect, SHFF bair > ftilt.

Works pretty well.

Also, playing around with Bowser, I found it's relatively easy and simple to airdodge inside yr opponent and UpB... same thing applies with Ivysaur. Airdodge into Bulletseed. :"}

As far as stages go... Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise all seem to work to Ivysaur's advantage. The platforms are low enough for you to surprise yr opponent with an UpB sweetspot for a kill. Lylat Cruise being the most lengthy stage of the three, it might be a little more difficult to Razor Leaf effectively, but the platforms work to yr advantage.

A little tip: Both Yoshi's Island and Battlefield are pretty small and Razor Leaf almost reaches the end of the stage which is VERY good for pressure and keeping yr opponent away.

This is all stuff I came across last night, hah. I just picked up Pokemon Trainer as a secondary to Snake.

Hopefully I can contribute more later!

Retro Gaming · May 21, 2008

The one draw back to Razor Leaf spam is how fast it puts you into fatigue. The speed of it is ridiculous, as I first discovered when I played a Dedede. It's good, but I ask myself if it's REALLY necessary at the time.

The Bair to Ftilt thing is already pretty standard. Or at least, I hope it is. It makes too much sense.

I'll test that airdodge to Bullet Seed thing out a little later, though. It sounds like a ridiculously awesome thing, and I think you could probably mindgame some other free hits if you just jump at your opponent.

I like Yoshi's Island as a PT but Lylat Cruise bother Razor Leaf when it tilts. Otherwise, I agree with the smaller stages. I actually think Squirtle performs better with platforms.

@Tenki: Duly noted.

Wyvern · May 21, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
The one draw back to Razor Leaf spam is how fast it puts you into fatigue.

The good news is that fatigue doesn't affect Razor Leaf itself in the slightest. It does the exact same amount of damage no matter how tired you are. As does Bullet Seed, for that matter (well, the initial pulse that hits next to you loses like 2%, but who cares).

If the matchup allows it, I do often like to switch to Charizard before my damage starts getting too high to boost survival time, but I'm starting to find that if you haven't done it by about 120 or so, it's usually better to just ride it out as Ivysaur regardless of fatigue. Switching to Charizard and getting KOed immediately really sucks, because then you're stuck as Squirtle with a still-tired Ivysaur on the bench. If you just keep Ivysaur until the end, you still have a decent chance of KOing with the better kill moves in spite of being tired, and even if you can't, Razor Leaf, Bullet Seed, and bairs can build up an impressive amount of damage even through fatigue. When you do finally kick the bucket, Charizard will be able to finish the job in no time, and then you have the choice of sticking with him or going to Squirtle and Ivysaur will still be fresh by the time you come back.

senjiroth · May 22, 2008

If the matchup allows it, I do often like to switch to Charizard before my damage starts getting too high to boost survival time, but I'm starting to find that if you haven't done it by about 120 or so, it's usually better to just ride it out as Ivysaur regardless of fatigue. Switching to Charizard and getting KOed immediately really sucks, because then you're stuck as Squirtle with a still-tired Ivysaur on the bench. If you just keep Ivysaur until the end, you still have a decent chance of KOing with the better kill moves in spite of being tired, and even if you can't, Razor Leaf, Bullet Seed, and bairs can build up an impressive amount of damage even through fatigue. When you do finally kick the bucket, Charizard will be able to finish the job in no time, and then you have the choice of sticking with him or going to Squirtle andIvysaur will still be fresh by the time you come back.

Wyvern has a point here... i used to switch everytime whenever my ivy gets in a high % and i kinda regret it coz zar is a very strong poke (probably my best pokemon) and he dies so fast that i can barely use him... but now i stick to my pokemons to the end unless its my squirtle that racked up dmg but didn't get that much dmg i'll switch to ivy to finish the job...

regarding ivy's recovery: i tried using the n-air instead of f-air when close and it actually works... most of the time i dont really care if my ivy dies as long as she takes away a stock with upB... if i miss zard is there to take over...

SrL04 · May 22, 2008

Norfair stage

Retro Gaming · May 23, 2008

Wyvern said:
The good news is that fatigue doesn't affect Razor Leaf itself in the slightest. It does the exact same amount of damage no matter how tired you are. As does Bullet Seed, for that matter (well, the initial pulse that hits next to you loses like 2%, but who cares).

If the matchup allows it, I do often like to switch to Charizard before my damage starts getting too high to boost survival time, but I'm starting to find that if you haven't done it by about 120 or so, it's usually better to just ride it out as Ivysaur regardless of fatigue. Switching to Charizard and getting KOed immediately really sucks, because then you're stuck as Squirtle with a still-tired Ivysaur on the bench. If you just keep Ivysaur until the end, you still have a decent chance of KOing with the better kill moves in spite of being tired, and even if you can't, Razor Leaf, Bullet Seed, and bairs can build up an impressive amount of damage even through fatigue. When you do finally kick the bucket, Charizard will be able to finish the job in no time, and then you have the choice of sticking with him or going to Squirtle and Ivysaur will still be fresh by the time you come back.

Excellent analysis, in my opinion. It really comes down to individual case wether I switch or not, but it just seems to be that I switch to Charizard, as you say, if the match permits it. It's not an all the time kind of thing.

I know the damage doesn't change, but fatigue really makes killing with Fsmash more difficult, and I think that's the most reliable kill move Ivy has. (Usmash is too laggy and Uair is easy to air-dodge)

Rauzaruke · May 23, 2008

You got to watch any meteor smashes and spikes that make their way towards Ivy while you are recovering. I really just noticed that Ivy isn't invincible while pulling yourself up from a vine whip. Only when you grab the edge with your little stubs do you gain the invincibly frames. If you don't time it right Ganon, Falco, and Ness can **** you before nabbing it. Though it is a small window given how fast Ivy pulls to get up, people can still get to you. :/

Bad experience with a good Ganon online today.

Retro Gaming · May 23, 2008

Actually, just about any character can abuse you if you hang there too long. I like to use it to bait them off the edge, and then pull up and Bair them from a ledge hopped aerial.

Rauzaruke · May 23, 2008

Yeah, I know that. But several times when I vine whipped and pulled myself up as fast as I could, I got Ganon stomped. He was pretty good. (though Ganon was too slow to recover after it and I sweet spotted a vine wipe into his face, resulting in a revenge KO before Ivy plummeted to his doom.)

Donno, I'm pretty new to the PT boards since I just decided on him being my star candidate for my primary main. Ivy is a bit weird for me to use and is thus my weak spot Pokemon, so I may be just exaggerating it a bit here.

Retro Gaming · May 23, 2008

It might happen if you're hanging too low, but you could have probably avoided it if you would have sat there a moment longer.

PopeOfChiliTown · May 23, 2008

Revolutionary1804 said:
razor leaf i think has too long of a lag and not long enough of a hitstun so i use it sparingly.

What? Razor Leaf is one of the top 5 best projectiles in the game and there is no reason not to abuse it.

Tenki · May 25, 2008

^at getting Ganon-stomped, some tether recoveries (not sure about ivy atm) leave you vulnerable as you slowly climb up to the edge, unable to control it.

PopeOfChiliTown said:
What? Razor Leaf is one of the top 5 best projectiles in the game and there is no reason not to abuse it.

Slower startup time and a bit of post-shot lag could mean you'll fall a bit too far during recovery. Its erratic aim could mean an obvious miss and that = opponent not getting off the ledge.

F-air as an alternative sounds good if you can reach them.

Also, I think it's about time for a new topic, alot of people seem to be saying the same things, so I think that's pretty much it :D

infernovia · May 25, 2008

Sometimes, its just about being fast enough to get that vine whip. I screw myself over all the time like that.

The razor leaf snipe works for a few times, if they start expecting it, then just vine whip instead. A lot of people underestimate Ivysaur's range so you can get a quick save that way. There have been a couple of times where its practically impossible though due to complete invincibility. If worst comes to worst, I hope you can sweetspot that up b for a stage spike.

Ivysaur's razor leaf gets more erratic and has shorter distance as fatigue kicks in, at this point, just switch IMO.

Oh and about razor leaf to snipe, usually, you are DIing to the stage though so it shouldn't be off target (you can control razor leaf a bit). At least I have never had it miss.

WITH · May 25, 2008

on the switching to charizard topic, i usually prefer to stay ivy because he can still rack on a ton of damage while fatigued with bullet seed or just playing campy with short hopped razor leaves. I find the short hopped razor leaves work well when you hop towards the opponent then DI away, almost like the b-sticking only not as extreme (unless you do b-stick I guess).

Camping is easy unless you are against a better projectile character. ftilt, dtilt, and neutral a are all amazing for quickly repelling an oponent whos advancing towards you on the ground. Just make sure to let go of your neutral a as soon as you see them start to DI away to avoid getting punished. If your opponent comes arially, often you can shield or dodge to bullet seed or ftilt.

It's only a good idea to camp if you are already fatigued though.

Retro Gaming · May 25, 2008

Tenki said:
Also, I think it's about time for a new topic, alot of people seem to be saying the same things, so I think that's pretty much it :D

WITH said:
It's only a good idea to camp if you are already fatigued though.

Lets change to this, then. Ivysaur is an awkward character to aproach with, and aproaches are too easily punished. Ftilt is about as good as it gets, so I think its better for Ivysaur just to play defensive. Camping should be the Ivysaur strat of choice, since it does such a great job at keeping a very comfortable amount of space between itself and the opponent.

One of the things people probably dislike most about Ivysaur is the awkward play it has, considering that you need to be defensive to excel. I just don't believe Ivysaur can aproach well enough, and that's why some projectile users just steam-roller right over it (Falco).

Fearmy · May 25, 2008

why not try running SH Razor Leaf, while DI backwards when you are pretty close to them, it might catch them off guard, air dodge Bullet seed is great, only if you can land it well. Nair, works but not all the time, F-tilt is helpful during campers *looks at pikachu*

Retro Gaming · May 25, 2008

I play Ice Climbers often, so maybe what I think of as "laggy" is not so much. But there's a point when you're "too close" to use Razor Leaf, and it leaves you vulnerable for a grab. I think it's far too easy to shield grab Ivy's Nair, so I really wouldn't suggest that. Ftilt is great for repeling some projectiles, but, as I've said, characters like Falco and Pit won't be affected by that. What I think you're basically getting at is that Ivysaur can not take the offensive all of the time. It has to come as a surprise.

I'd also like to add that attacking with the tips of an auto-canceled Fair and then DI'n out, possibly into a Ftilt, is pretty effective for me.

Tenki · May 25, 2008

I played one decent Ivysaur player offline, but it was waay back in March and April.

I don't get the vibe that Ivy is an 'approaching' character as it is a defensive 'tank'. Doing a WOP-style b-air spaces pretty well defensively, so I don't see why it wouldn't be bad while approaching.

Retro Gaming · May 25, 2008

There are only a few ways I could see Ivysaur "approaching". One would be what you said, but I would rather do a sort of "Bair pressure-wall" until they've reached the edge. This gives them less space to work with.

As for some projectile spammers, Ftilt is capable of nullifying their attempts. You can eventually reach them and do whatever it is you need to do.

The last would be (Auto-canceled) Fair that is DI'd away from the opponent. You should be hitting with the tips of the vines, if you try this. You can easily Ftilt upon landing, as well.

fire_wulf · May 25, 2008

I do the SH razor leaf with DI back. Exactly like Retro said above me with the Auto-cancelled Fair.
I also SH nair... if they get caught in it.. DI down so you don't do the last hit then bullet seed. If they shield the Nair... immediately start DI backwards.. you should land out of grab range if you did it right and then can Ftilt to keep them away.
I like to RAR and bair as a surprise approach to keep them guessing.
Some approaches I rarely use but are great for surprises are dash attack...dash canceled shield grab.... and this one is only if you know you can get it and the opponent is not expecting it... dash canceled bullet seed. Hilarious when you get it off cuz you just sprint in.. shield then bullet and they don't see it coming

But overall Ivy does like to camp and does a great job at it.. there are just those times when camping is not an option and you have to approach. Like when Ivy is getting out camped.. or you need to get a switch off to get Zard out.

Defense and camp are the first things to learn with Ivy... but approach needs to be the next thing learned for when the moment calls for it.

Retro Gaming · May 25, 2008

Oh, I sort of forgot the bit where you dash and do a dash-canceled dash attack. That's actually a pretty good one if your opponent thinks you're going to do something else or they try to punish you for attacking.

You're description of Nair has made me decide to try it out a little more, fire_wulf. I'll have to try it versus a character that won't kill me for getting shield grabbed, though.

Dizzynecro · May 25, 2008

Short hop bairs for another good projectile cancle.

Totally unrelated, but I'm getting a lot of kills with uair lately because half the time on a falling opponent I just jump up into uair range, wait for the air dodge and fastfall into an uair. It's great!

Knyaguy · May 26, 2008

I usually short hop to razor leaf then to a f-tilt.

PopeOfChiliTown · May 26, 2008

Ivysaur is better off baiting than approaching, per se. Bair spam is great so long as you don't forget you are vulnerable upon landing for half a second, and are prepared to counter their counter. Bair to ftilt makes good pressure as well.

Razor Leaf is amazing. It's a big projectile that cancels out most other projectiles. It ****s up Snake's grenade throwing, and can get them to blow up in his face. The firing rate is a bit faster in the air, or at least it seems that way, so I usually full jump when at a distance and shoot two, which helps control space.

So, now that I stated two random points, let me see if I can congeal them into one cohesive piece of data. As a rule, I lead off any type of advance or approach with Razor Leaf. Whenever I knock someone off the edge, my edgeguard begins with shooting one or two RLs, after which I prepare to bair people or apply pressure if they grab the ledge. It limits their options at a minimum cost, there is simply no reason not to do it. Bair is actually the best rush down move Ivysaur has, and it's a doozy. Floaty/light characters are stifled by this, since they leave the ground from the vine hits at lower %s than other characters. The point is to not forget that bair is not the goal, but the means. Too many times I've seen Ivysaur players continue to bair spam when they had apportunities for other things, like fsmash or grabbing, etc. It's a whole new area of gameplay, to watch how people react when in the midst of a bair assault, so you can learn how to counter every scenario.

I'd also like to point out some underrated attacks: nair and dtilt. Nair comes out almost instantly, so it's good out of shield or when you need to counter something. It may not have the best priority, but its speed makes it great to tack on damage. At low %s, you can link nairs together with other nairs or fairs, and when you don't land the final hit, you can usually try your luck with Bullet Seed. Dtilt is also fast, has decent knockback and sends at a good angle for getting people off the edge. Good for pressure on the edge, and to throw out after an autocancelled fair or nair as an alternative to ftilt.

Sorry for the rant.

Retro Gaming · May 26, 2008

The only problem with Dtilt is if they shield it then you're getting grabbed. =/ But I'll agree, underrated for no just cause, it puts them in a suitable position for some form of aerial attack.

As long as we're talking about Nair, I'm still a little iffy with it as an approach, but it has real value off-stage or whe you're opponent is in the air. Dthrow pretty much guarantees a Nair at moderate (~50%) percents. You can get Sweet-spotted Vine Whips out of Dthrow from 0% on most characters.

PopeOfChiliTown · May 26, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
You can get Sweet-spotted Vine Whips out of Dthrow from 0% on most characters.

Usually not given how easy it is to DI out of it. Besides, you're better off saving Vine Whip's strength for KOs. That move is completely underrated as a kill move. I mean, people have praised it, but in my case, it's actually gotten to the point where it accounts to more than half of my kills with Ivysaur. I'm telling you all: master it. That is, if the prospect of KOing Snake at 80-100% is at all attractive to you.

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