High KO %s for a heavyweight?

Flayl · May 13, 2008

Bowser seems a bit gimped on his killing potential when compared to other heavyweights.

These are the %s I got for the middle of FD, on the ground, against Mario (all smash attacks are uncharged):

| Utilt | 109%
| Ftilt | 164%
| Dtilt | 123%
| Usmash | 101%/129%
| Fsmash | 80%/107%
| Dsmash | ~99%
| Fair | 150%
| Bair | 136%
| Nair | 174%
| UpB | 131%
| DownB | 74%/94%
| SideB | 146%
| Bthrow | 263%
| DashA | 219%
| AA | 230%

Utilt only works if opponent is behind you, Usmash only reaches max effectiveness if opponent is as close to you and behind you. Usmash has a second hit as Bowser lands but the odds of it hitting are so low I didn't bother to test it. Fsmash only reaches max effectiveness if you hit with both parts of the smash. Dsmash is really, really, unreliable, I've had situations where the opponent pops out in the middle of the smash.

If the attack isn't in there it's because it either can't KO or can't KO below 300%.

These are the %s I got for the middle of FD, against a lowest possible falling Mario:

| Usmash | 88%-100%
| Uair | 86%
| Fair | 165%
| Bair | 136%

The %s of plenty of these attacks get a lot better when you're near the edge of course, but so do the other heavyweight characters'.

But come on, his dash attack only KO's AT 219% (it's almost a straight vertical btw).

That being said I'm going to Dtilt more often.

Kitamerby · May 13, 2008

Is that the % before or after the strikes? Because a grounded Bowser Bomb KO's around 85%, and I'm sure that some moves KO earlier than that.

Da N · May 13, 2008

Hmm no theyre not high. its good if you can KO someone at 120%. Besides don't frorget that youll probably no be in the middle of the stage. For me the d-smash is one of my main kill moves. Ive never had thm back out in the middleof it. Now if your comparing the kill percenages of say Ike, then yes. Since Ike can KO a snake at 60% with his f-smash in the middle of the stage.

Popertop · May 13, 2008

you forgot to mention the sweetspot for the usmash, and uair kills at 80.
maybe they made his KOs higher (some of them alot are still good) because
he's the heaviest character in the game?
I know that isn't much, but maybe they thought it would unbalance everything?
(a lot of good they did balancing it anyways)

whut? · May 14, 2008

i dont believe any of those numbers. i also do not believe dash attack only kills over 200%...WTF.
you failed to mention sweetspots as well.

BadGuy · May 14, 2008

I don't see up air. Everyone knows that bowser's up air is the most beast up air in the game. It can ko at 60-70 percent.

Buuman · May 14, 2008

If you're going to take the liberty of giving information and numbers...please do it accurately

Flayl · May 14, 2008

All of those mentioning the sweetspot of Usmash and Uair, did you even read the OP? This is against a grounded Mario.

Is that the % before or after the strikes? Because a grounded Bowser Bomb KO's around 85%, and I'm sure that some moves KO earlier than that.

Before.

If you're going to take the liberty of giving information and numbers...please do it accurately

If you're going to call me a liar, back it up.

Buuman · May 15, 2008

My apologies Flayl. Misread that it was in the middle of final destination. xD
Sorry sir

Da N · May 15, 2008

Yeah FDs got a kinda high ceiling so I play at Smashville. Small width, small height, and fortress can almost clear the stage from on eend to the other.

WastingPenguins · May 16, 2008

Donkey Kongs Usmash, Dsmash and Fsmash can all easily kill below 100% if not diminished.

Da N · May 16, 2008

WastingPenguins said:
Donkey Kongs Usmash, Dsmash and Fsmash can all easily kill below 100% if not diminished.

Yes but were not talking about DK. If you mean that he has a much better kill percentage than Bowser, than yes thats more on topic.

Flayl · May 16, 2008

I'll do %s for a landing mario later today (fast falled aerials, sweet-spotted Usmash)

I'll also have to figure out if a bowser bomb done off the ground has the same power as one done in the air. I've seen the ground one KO earlier than the aerial but for now without testing I think it's only because the first hit (when bowser jumps up) launches them in the air.

Then if I have time I'll repeat the ground/falling %s for the edges.

Yes but were not talking about DK. If you mean that he has a much better kill percentage than Bowser, than yes thats more on topic.

To be truthful, that was the point of this thread, to compare's bowser's power to other heavyweights.

Flayl · May 16, 2008

Sorry about the double post but it's to notify I've added more data.

A perfectly sweet-spotted Usmash can KO Mario on FD at 88% (note that it is no longer at the lowest possible airborne state)

Fair loses KO power against an airborne opponent because it launches him/her with a wider angle than it would if he/she were on the ground even if he's below you.

If you start DownB on the ground you can KO Mario at 74%, provided the second hit launches him at a 90º angle

FD does seem to have a rather high ceiling, so if anyone which stage is closest to having the average ceiling let me know

Hyrus · May 16, 2008

Flayl said:
Bowser seems a bit gimped on his killing potential when compared to other heavyweights.

You can't really examine a small portion of a character, such as KO power, to measure up a character's ability to perform. A character may have weak KO percentages but make up for it with better agility, reach, priority, etc...

All of which Bowser is lacking anyway. Maybe the man went "eww... Bowser and Ganon are bad guys, well we'll give them bad stats so the good guys win! Hurray!" You know. Like a child.

S_B · May 16, 2008

Hyrus said:
You know. Like a child.

Given that Sakurai looks like he's 12, this is sound reasoning.

Not to mention his spiel about leveling the playing field for grandmothers and 2 year olds. He probably figures that if Bowser or Ganon were to win a match, it would make children cry so they should be gimped.

Buuman · May 18, 2008

Smash_Brother said:
Given that Sakurai looks like he's 12, this is sound reasoning.

Not to mention his spiel about leveling the playing field for grandmothers and 2 year olds. He probably figures that if Bowser or Ganon were to win a match, it would make children cry so they should be gimped.

hahaha this made me laugh so hard xD

Flayl · Aug 25, 2008

Anybody want me to find out at which % Bthrow can KO at the edge of the stage (This way you'd know if you were better off grab releasing/Dthrow'ing for damage)? Also it'd be great if a Bowser could play someone with really good DI so we could make a % spread for the KO moves.

Also I need someone to test Smash DI'ing Bowser's DSmash (upwards or in diagonal) because I've never seen a human opponent pop out of the smash but AI does it all the time.

Oh, and as it turns out FD doesn't have a particularly high ceiling after all.

edit: Forgot BThrow can always set up for an edgeguard even if you don't kill so, err, whatever

Nitros14 · Aug 25, 2008

Bowser doesn't have a problem killing.

Shade487z · Aug 25, 2008

Nitros14 said:
Bowser doesn't have a problem killing.

Of course not. I mean come on, he's BOWSER.

DiasFlac · Aug 25, 2008

is this with or without Mario's hat on?

BurtonEarny · Aug 25, 2008

Nitros14 said:
Bowser doesn't have a problem killing.

yeah if the character is over 70-80 they are in real danger of a k.o.

Hobobloke · Aug 26, 2008

they are still decent kill percenages but i suppose compared to other heavyweights its not great

eyestrain92 · Aug 27, 2008

Bowser hits so hard %-wise, is a brick of lead, and is mobile enough to move at a faster speed than say, Ganon. Bowser is meant to be played towards the sides where these percentages become much lower.

Yeah, he doesn't have the strongest distanced blows in the game.

Sonork · Aug 31, 2008

Basically he's has the weakest killing power of all the HWs. Dedede, ike, Snake, Gannon, Charizard, G&W and DK all way outpower Bowser it's stupid. I was sad to find this out since I like playing heavy strong characters and Bowser was my favorite character in melee.

oh sorry did I say G&W? oh yeah he has more power than bowser too. XD

ndubya · Aug 31, 2008

Even though Bowser cant kill like the other heavyweights, he can survive for longer than most. If i'm not mistaken, Bowser is the heaviest character in the game.

Sonork · Sep 1, 2008

Not by a noticable enough amount... like 2-3% more? lol still gets KO'd at 70% from the other heavy's powerful attacks.

eyestrain92 · Sep 2, 2008

It's much more noticeable on lighter characters. Heavies are still heavies, Ganon is still Ganon. Speed-wise, he's at least above Ganon, and he's got range that's none-to-shabby. But yes, seems the turtle is a turtle.

High KO %s for a heavyweight?

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