A Look at Japan's WEEKLY キャラランク "Chara Ranks" (use Official Sticky for Tier Debate)

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

* * * * * * *
woops ignore...i dug up the melee results lol
* * * * * * *

hey everybody thanks for supporting this thread
basically teh hawaii boards and i got pretty suspicious at these lists a month or two ago and realized ANONYMOUS infects japan as well as america. in other words, these "chara ranks" are basically ANONYMOUS. they're not Ikki's. the first list wayyy back in april might be legit, but that's also questionable. Kamekasu was good enough to point that out here on swf. ENTIRELY MY FAULT for not saying so earlier. so yeah flame away or whatever gg everybody.

Code:

5/31/08 chara-rank
[URL="http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/goveract/1212219810/286-386"]http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/...219810/286-386[/URL]

S. Snake, Falco, MK, ROB
A. Diddy, Fox, Marusu
B. Wolf, G&W, Toon, Pit
C. ICs, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucario
D. Kirby, Sheik, DDD, *Lucas, Luigi, Wario
E. *Ike, Koopa, Zelda, DK, Ness, Peach, *Link
F. *Samus, Sonic, CF, Purin, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon

:jigglypuf

low..tires..ftw

http://mobile.seisyun.net/cgi/read.cgi/game13/game13_goveract_1207747647
post #313 Update 14.April.2008
S. Snake, Falco, MK, ROB
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon, Pit, Marf
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Ryuka[=Lucas]
D. Kirby, Sheik, DeDeDe, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Koopa, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Purin, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

post #513 Update 17.April.2008 (again, idk what the asterisks signify)
S. Snake, Falco, MK, ROB
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon, Pit, Maruuuuusu
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Kirby, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, *Mario, Ryuka, *Lucario
D. Sheik, DeDeDe, Luigi, Wario
E. *Koopa, Samus, Zelda, *DK, Ness, Peach, *Link
F. Ike, *Sonic, CF, Purin, *PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

post #726 Update 19.April.2008 (i saw several different lists posted on this date, but it'll take awhile to figure out which is legit..."Ikki" is mentioned throughout the board but atm i'm unsure as to which of these lists are attributed under his compilation work...and then again i might be completely off that it's even his in the first place) ^_^
S. Snake, Falco, MK, ROB
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon, Pit, Maaarusu
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, *Mario, Ryuka, *Lucario
D. *Kirby, Sheik, DeDeDe, Luigi, Wario
E. *Koopa, Samus, Zelda, *DK, Ness, Peach, *Link
F. Ike, *Sonic, CF, Purin, *PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

this is interesting; another list, apparently Rain's (fyi a player in Captain Jack's circle)

from the japan boards #269] [URL]http://mobile.seisyun.net/cgi/read.cgi/game13/game13_goveract_1207747647[/URL] RAINｓの日記より S. MK said:
indie_dave said:

THE FOLLOWING is from my April 26th post.
IT IS A RANT directed at the misinformed who should really not talk at the expense of their intelligence's good repute.
TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT for what it's worth.
i firmly believe i'm doing this community of smashers, n00b and not, a favor by promoting discussion on what is and isn't a "tier". i've seen at least another thread created that used the same information i posted (AlphaZealot's textbook definition of "tiers"), so that corroborates this idea of mine as being a little less vain than it probably comes off as. if this topic keeps even one idiot from posting more youtube-comment-like garbage, then it's done it's job. what say you, Yuna, et al? wishful thinking? well, here's my contribution...i'm not the biggest contributer to this forum, but hey it is, at the end of the day, a video game.

Click to expand...

starting here:

insert generic troll here said:

Japan sucks at smash compared to North America.

I'm pretty sure they had their own tier list for Melee and Link was near the top.

Click to expand...

insert person who should('nt?) post this in Official Sticky said:

Tiers dont even matter, anyone as good as me knows the constant mind games and infinite air/ground dodging makes tiers non-existent
think for a sec, any character can dodge ANY attack instantly whether its ground OR air
i have never seen a match up that wasnt possible
i beat pro pits/olimars/spacies/robs with yoshi, explain to me how tiers exist? its only a lack of leetness that makes characters suck
i mean COME ON, you can dodge EVERY attack in the ENTIRE GAME, if reflectors and projectiles didnt exist everyone would be 99% balanced

plain and simple explination: time dodges EVERY chance you get, and you're equal to your opponent

Click to expand...

insert person who should('nt?) post this in Official Sticky said:

no, because Yoshi ain't bottom. You all just thinking him like his Melee way. He HAS changed, he has better buffs than nerfs. Why are most people too lazy to try Yoshi for once, and find his fight style, instead of playing one match and saying "He sucks"? You think loss of DJC is a major nerf, when he plays BETTER WITHOUT IT!

I am surprised that some of you don't even know he has a 3rd jump. That's how lazy you are (the ones who never gave Yoshi a chance).

so Maybe, PsychoIncarnate, you haven't gave him a chance at all by the looks of things

Didja think of that?

Click to expand...

don't wanna put this person's name - i'd be embarrassed too said:

Seriously. I didn't want to argue but you have made me argue. and plus, I have been waiting to play someone DECENT at smash bros for the past few years, so STFU, and cut me some ****ing slack!

I try to explain something, why Yoshi ain't the worst, but now I am getting seriously pissed off, with idiots like you, ignoring us when we show proof, still continuing, like a bunch of ****ing *******.

Why not call this ****ing "Yoshi hate world forums: The forums for ****ing ignorant *******"

Click to expand...

dude, chill

Conda said:

Japanese people don't play Ness, I reckon.

Click to expand...

^this is an example of a decent comment. thanks Conda!
-dave

« if you are in the category of thinking smashers who

actually know what tiers are,

can intelligently discuss them with other intelligent and informed smashers, and

understand this is NOT an end-all tier discussion, but rather, forum for current metagame from one part of the world, obviously not ours unless you are from japan

or simply commenting, bumping, asking me to update, subscribing etc. in a non-tard fashion

a huge THANK YOU for your intelligent contributions so far
the following statement does not pertain to you »

this is for all you trolls that don't even read the post before posting:

do yourself a favor and consider carefully if anybody with half a brain gives a **** what you think
this is NOT a tier discussion
please take your grand theories to the Official Sticky
and see if anybody gives a **** what you think over there either
for all your wasted typing, the bRoomers who release the top-player endorsed REAL tier list aren't considering your silly wasted words
hell they better NOT be considering what i think because i suck at スマブラX/brawl, and i suck at melee too.

look
i even provided the textbook definition for what tiers are in the OP
if you don't know who AlphaZealot or HugS are, you need to lurk moar
if you don't know who Ikki is, you need to lurk moar
if you're gonna talk about link being too high in the japan melee top-player endorsed REAL tier list, you need to watch some Aniki vids and shut up until you do

Wak017 another 1337 smasher who knows wat he's talking about - from the vid notes click ^ said:

They are good, you aren't. We don't care about your opinion on how good or bad they are, they would beat you. Stop even think you would stand a chance. Ken is considered the best in the world, he would maybe get beaten by some people, but not people like you, unless you're called PC chris, KDJ or M2K, he proved his skills over and over for soon 7 years in many MLG's and national tournaments, winning more than $50 000 US just by playing this game.
-Wak017 and the rest of the smash community.

Click to expand...

and do yourself a favor and watch the mexicans own face with link too
also, you should pm Ken and tell him that you think japan sucks. but i told you first that he's prolly not going to reply, and if he does he's gonna tell you to STFU and educate urself n00b
and if you don't know what TIRES DON EXITS means, welcome to SWF ^_^
may i direct your attention to the SEARCH FUNCTION?
that's what the boards are for, to get schooled son

THE ORIGINAL ORIGINAL POST:

THE LISTS POSTED BELOW IN THIS THREAD ARE NOT "TIERS"
THEY ARE WEEKLY TOURNAMENT DATA COMPILATIONS FROM JAPAN

HugS said:
SWF NOTE:

<PLEASE READ>
<before posting n00b comments kthx>

ok so i've been keeping an eye on japan boards and i think these キャラランク (chara ranks) are the ones Ikki compiles based on raw tourney data over the week. as "weekly tiers,” they obviously change every week because they reflect ONLY ONE WEEK’S RESULTS. for those who can xlate the nihongo boards better than i can, or those directly speaking to japanese players in the know, i’d appreciate any corrections. also, if anybody knows how to BBCode a clean spreadsheet list, that'd be appreciated; that way i can just stick it here.

TAKE THEM OR LEAVE THEM FOR WHAT THEY’RE WORTH
…スマブラX/brawl is still a very new game.
HugS aptly illuminates how the brawl metagame is currently at a floor state
however, it could go without saying, that the japan metagame is significantly more developed than ours, and even for a new game, these rank values are interesting just to watch movement from week to week.

HugS said:

No one is good at this game.
Stop saying " wow ____ has an amazing pit". He doesn't.
No more "This guy is showing us how the game should be played". He isn't.

Everyone sucks at brawl. You don't get points for beating a good melee player in brawl. You don't get points for winning only 65% of the matches you play. You suck, I suck, we all suck.

The only skill difference between brawlers now is that certain players just suck a little less.
At least give the game more than 2 weeks post release before you start claiming that you or anyone is good at it.

Click to expand...

this topic was originally posted at sbhc/smashbroshawaii.com under “TIRES DON EXITS"

enjoy...or do not enjoy
there is no try

/SWF NOTE

THE LISTS POSTED BELOW IN THIS THREAD ARE NOT "TIERS"
THEY ARE WEEKLY TOURNAMENT DATA COMPILATIONS FROM JAPAN

AlphaZealot said:
from AlphaZealot's Melee topic: "Wavedashing, L-cancelling, All The Terms! Read First! Update 12/23/2007"

Tiers: Tiers are a general breakdown of how each character stacks up in comparison to the other characters in the game. The tier list assumes a few things. First and most importantly is that it is based on the current metagame (which is based on the mind-games and technical skill of the top players). Current is the vital point here, it is not based on future potential, but on current potential (as a note here Fox is considered to have the most potential in the game). Second, the tier list assumes those playing are of near equal skill, and that they are both near the top of the technical (human) ability for their given character.

What exactly does all this mean? Essentially under most circumstances the higher tiered character will beat the lower tiered character. It is a simply a list of overall advantages, which characters have more advantages in more match ups than other characters. What it doesn't mean is that Sheik will always destroy Marth simply because she is located 2 spots above Marth on the tier list. The impact of the tier list at the top levels of play is minimal once you move into the High Tier and above. Instead, counter characters begin to play a larger role. This also brings up a large portion of the confusion regarding the tier list because a lower ranked character can be a counter to a character ranked much higher. The easiest example here is the Ice Climbers versus Sheik. While Sheik has more advantages in more match ups, the Ice Climbers are one of the few characters that can chain grab her, and as a result they are her only hard counter.
To get a slightly more in depth look at tiers, largely covering the previous tier list, view this: The Ever Evolving Smash Tiers

THE LISTS POSTED BELOW IN THIS THREAD ARE NOT "TIERS"
THEY ARE WEEKLY TOURNAMENT DATA COMPILATIONS FROM JAPAN

:ness:

latest update: 4/10/08 japan list
^/v (up/down) denotes movement from LAST week's list
my take:
hmmmmmz not entirely sure what to make of this update. it's almost exactly the same as 2 weeks ago, with notable shifts up top in S-class, and biggest movement UP for Lucario and DK compared to 2 weeks ago
again, take it or leave it for what it's worth. /shrugs
also, there is no explanation in the same post as to what the asterisks might signify
as always, anybody able and willing to look closer please be our guest ^_^
4/10/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/famicom/1207761820/282-382
S. Snake, Falco(^), MK(^), ROB(v)
A. Fox(^)
B. G&W(^^^), Diddy(^), Toon(^^^), Pit(^^^^^), M4rfu(v)
C. ICs(vvv), Wolf(vvv), Olimar(^^^^^), ZeroSamus(^^^), Pikachu(vvv), *Mario(^^^), Lucas(v), *Lucario(^^^^^)
D. Kirby(^^^), Sheik(vvv), DDD(vvv), Luigi(^^^), Wario
E. *Koopa(vvvvv), Samus(vvv), Zelda(vvvvv), *DK(^), Ness(^^^), Peach(vvvvv), Link(^^^)
F. Ike(vvvvv), *Sonic(^), CF(^), Purin(^^^), *PokeTore(vvv), Yoshi(vvv)
G. Ganon(v)

update: 4/3/08 list
***japan is giving mad reps to Ike, Zelda, and Peach apparently atm
with big ups also to Koopa, Samus, DK, Yoshi, and PokeTore
Wolf and ICs broke S-tier, while other charas are losing out in last week's tourneys.
^/v (up/down) denotes movement from last week's list
feel free to discuss any errors or z0mg overlookd items
4/3/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/42562/1204231339/l50
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK, Wolf(^), ICs(^^^)
A. Fox(v), Marfu(^), Diddy(v), G&W(vvv), Toon(v), Pikachu(v), Koopa (^^^)
B. Ike(^^^^^), Lucas(^), Zelda(^^^^^), Sheik(v), DDD(^), Peach(^^^^^), Pit(vvvvv), Zamus(vvv), Samus(^^^), Wario
C. Olimar (vvv), Mario (vvv), Luigi(vvv), Kirby(vvv), DK(^^^), Lucario(vvv), Yoshi (^^^), Ness(vvv)
D. PokeT(^^^), Sonic(v), Link(vvv), CF(v), Ganon (^), Purin (v) ;_;

3/29/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/42562/1204231339/l50
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Marf
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Zamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Koopa, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

3/22/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/goveract/1206175501/l50x
S. Snake, Robotto
A. Falco, MK
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Fox, M4rf
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Koopa, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

3/19/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://longsense.blog80.fc2.com/blog-date-200803.html
S. MK, Falco, Robo, Fox, Snake
A. Marusu, Pit, Toon
B. Wolf, G&W, Diddy, Mario, AiKura, Zamus
C. Pikachu, Luigi, Kirby, Dedede, Wario, Lucario, Lucas, Olimar
D. Peach, Samus, Sheik, Ness, Jiggs, PokeTore, DK, Koopa
E. Link, Ike, Zelda, Sonic
F. CF
G. Ganon, Yoshi ;_;

edit1: fixed links
edit2: cleaned up notes
edit3: cleaned up post
edit4: cleaned up post, changed topic title from [Tires Don Exits: A Look at Japan's *WEEKLY* キャラランク "Chara Ranks"] to [A Look at Japan's *WEEKLY* キャラランク "Chara Ranks" (use Official Sticky for Tier Debate)]
edit5: update 4/10/08 list
edit6: rant bumproll ^_^
edit7: update 14.April, 17.April, 19.April
---
:ness:

Corigames · Apr 7, 2008

I'm confused... what am I looking at? Is this rapid changes in the Japan tier list?

Gluttony · Apr 7, 2008

coreygames said:
I'm confused... what am I looking at? Is this rapid changes in the Japan tier list?

I think so. Doesn't exactly prove tiers don't exist though. Tiers exist if people like them or not.

I.T.P · Apr 7, 2008

the one listed as 29\3 is the same list I posted a couple of times at the tier list discussion, only mine was after Kei fully translated it and ordered it, so it looked better.

I'll put this in a better format in a couple of minutes

I've yet to get a serious chat with ikki to ask for explanations, but I will soon.

Corigames · Apr 7, 2008

Well, I'm all up for the dispute of "tiers don't exist," because I still haven't heard a good reason. Even if you compare Japan's list to ours, it makes sense. Look at melee! Japan's top on the list was Sheik and Dr. Mario. Why? Sheik was the most played and winning the most at tournaments because she could exploit the Japanese inhuman ability to press buttons very fast. Dr. Mario was 2nd because he is a direct counter to Sheik.

If someone thinks all characters are balanced in Brawl... :/

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

indie_dave said:
swf note:
been keeping an eye on japan boards...and i think these are ikki's "weekly tiers"
PLEASE SEE THE NOTES AT BOTTOM OF POST
<before posting n00b comments kthx>
originally posted at sbhc/smashbroshawaii.com
/swf note

latest update: 4/3/08 japan list
***japan is giving mad reps to Ike, Zelda, and Peach apparently atm
with big ups also to Koopa, Samus, DK, Yoshi, and PokeTore
Wolf and ICs broke S-tier, while other charas are losing out in last week's tourneys.

note:
i think these are the ones ikki compiles based on raw tourney data over the week, but i might be r0ng :/
take em or leave um for what they're worth, still a new game of course, but japan metagame wayyyy more developed
/note

note 2:
i'll xlate later, or somebody else will get to it
nvm, xlated; board won't take nihongo text :/
/note2

note 3.1:
spreadsheetd each of the weeklies
if anybody knows how to BBCode a clean spreadsheet list, that'd be appreciated
^/v (up/down) denotes movement from last week's list
feel free to discuss any errors or z0mg overlookd items
/note 3

---

lol

READ THE NOTES PLZKTHX
i know i know tl;dr

i'm pretty sure these are Ikki's weekly's (weekly "tiers", or ranks in the original post from the japan boards) if you will.

i might be r0ng so any 1337 nihongo-ers plz correct me if that is the case.

I.T.P · Apr 7, 2008

coreygames said:
Well, I'm all up for the dispute of "tiers don't exist," because I still haven't heard a good reason. Even if you compare Japan's list to ours, it makes sense. Look at melee! Japan's top on the list was Sheik and Dr. Mario. Why? Sheik was the most played and winning the most at tournaments because she could exploit the Japanese inhuman ability to press buttons very fast. Dr. Mario was 2nd because he is a direct counter to Sheik.

If someone thinks all characters are balanced in Brawl... :/

Tiers have allways existed and will allways exist, but in a perfect\balanced game in which the characters are NOT the same, the diffrence between tiers will be so small, that theoratically every character would be able to win against every other character with no downhill going over 60-40.

in that game, you will be able to say "Tiers don't matter", though they will still exist

I haven't played it enough to say it's true, but I heard GG:XX AC is such a game, but meh.

Corigames · Apr 7, 2008

Nah, people at school are always talking about Accent Core (their set-up is right next to smash). One day, someone completely new picked up (and correct me on this name because it is probably wrong) Del-Sol (???), mashed buttons and beat a long-time player. He was able to pull off specials very fast, kept flying around the screen, and hit very hard. It was like the perfect character. Now, after a little while, the pro got use to his spammy technique. In a sense, it's like Brawl that way, a game where you have to get use to a player button mashing (not to say Guilty Gear is dumb, I respect that game very much and the people who play it. More or less I'm insinuating that Brawl is that way much more than GG).

I.T.P · Apr 7, 2008

coreygames said:
Nah, people at school are always talking about Accent Core (their set-up is right next to smash). One day, someone completely new picked up (and correct me on this name because it is probably wrong) Del-Sol (???), mashed buttons and beat a long-time player. He was able to pull off specials very fast, kept flying around the screen, and hit very hard. It was like the perfect character. Now, after a little while, the pro got use to his spammy technique. In a sense, it's like Brawl that way, a game where you have to get use to a player button mashing (not to say Guilty Gear is dumb, I respect that game very much and the people who play it. More or less I'm insinuating that Brawl is that way much more than GG).

I think it's just the fact that smash is unconventional, so it takes much longer to learn and get used to, though due to the reduced speed in Brawl, it's now much easier to understand the game for someone that is not a player, and the pool of newbies that can actually play has increased exponentially.

in your story, it seems the "long time player" isn't very good if he couldn't cope with a button masher, even if it was a competent one. yes, I have heard that Sol badguy is a sort of newb friendly, but saying that means high level play isn't balanced is a bad implication and a False statement.

Corigames · Apr 7, 2008

Well, I'm not "one of them," so I wasn't actually paying attention to the fight, just the argument springing from it afterwards. Maybe he barely won, or maybe he wasn't completely mashing buttons or was just lieing about his skill in general.

The point is, a game where a completely new person showing up and beating someone who has been playing for a while shouldn't exist unless it is a game of chance.

captainfalconmute · Apr 7, 2008

Slightly off topic, but Ive always wondered why the phrase 'tires don exits' is used. It actually took me a while to figure out what it meant the first time i saw it (yeh im slow).

So can someone tell me why its said like that and not just 'Tiers dont exist'?

OoNoiRoO · Apr 7, 2008

indie_dave said:
lol

READ THE NOTES PLZKTHX
i know i know tl;dr

i'm pretty sure these are Ikki's weekly's (weekly "tiers", or ranks in the original post from the japan boards) if you will.

i might be r0ng so any 1337 nihongo-ers plz correct me if that is the case.

It would be nice if you just typed it out regularly along with good english, thanks.

Corigames · Apr 7, 2008

Sort of like 1337 speak, and because more of the "less experienced" players like to fall back on this hollow argument, so, to insult them, they make it sound like dumb person is saying it by removing some syllables from the phrase.

tat is, unless. Someone specifically said that and people ridicule him for it to this day.

I.T.P · Apr 7, 2008

coreygames said:
Sort of like 1337 speak, and because more of the "less experienced" players like to fall back on this hollow argument, so, to insult them, they make it sound like dumb person is saying it by removing some syllables from the phrase.

tat is, unless. Someone specifically said that and people ridicule him for it to this day.

That's what I allways thought it originated from, was I wrong?

Fugue · Apr 7, 2008

coreygames said:
Nah, people at school are always talking about Accent Core (their set-up is right next to smash). One day, someone completely new picked up (and correct me on this name because it is probably wrong) Del-Sol (???), mashed buttons and beat a long-time player. He was able to pull off specials very fast, kept flying around the screen, and hit very hard. It was like the perfect character. Now, after a little while, the pro got use to his spammy technique. In a sense, it's like Brawl that way, a game where you have to get use to a player button mashing (not to say Guilty Gear is dumb, I respect that game very much and the people who play it. More or less I'm insinuating that Brawl is that way much more than GG).

Either Sol or Order-Sol.
No offense, but your friend isn't that good, then. GG is particularly punishing to mashers because they keep mashing out RC's at the wrong time. If he couldn't handle that, he really ought to learn how to play better.

NDUDE · Apr 7, 2008

...Why the hell is Fox higher up than Pit?

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

cleaned up the notes by popular demand.

the entire smash community, i'm sure, would appreciate if everybody read the notes before discussing.

SWF NOTE:

<PLEASE READ>
<before posting n00b comments kthx>

ok so i've been keeping an eye on japan boards and i think these キャラランク (chara ranks) are the ones Ikki compiles based on raw tourney data over the week. as "weekly tiers,” they obviously change every week because they reflect ONLY ONE WEEK’S RESULTS. for those who can xlate the nihongo boards better than i can, or those directly speaking to japanese players in the know, i’d appreciate any corrections. also, if anybody knows how to BBCode a clean spreadsheet list, that'd be appreciated; that way i can just stick it here.

TAKE THEM OR LEAVE THEM FOR WHAT THEY’RE WORTH
…スマブラX/brawl is still a very new game.
HugS aptly illuminates how the brawl metagame is currently at a floor state
however, it could go without saying, that the japan metagame is significantly more developed than ours, and even for a new game, these rank values are interesting just to watch movement from week to week.

Originally Posted by HugS
No one is good at this game.
Stop saying " wow ____ has an amazing pit". He doesn't.
No more "This guy is showing us how the game should be played". He isn't.

Everyone sucks at brawl. You don't get points for beating a good melee player in brawl. You don't get points for winning only 65% of the matches you play. You suck, I suck, we all suck.

The only skill difference between brawlers now is that certain players just suck a little less.
At least give the game more than 2 weeks post release before you start claiming that you or anyone is good at it.

Click to expand...

this topic was originally posted at sbhc/smashbroshawaii.com under “TIRES DON EXITS"

enjoy...or do not enjoy
there is no try

/SWF NOTE

thanks!

Harmonicry · Apr 7, 2008

just follow the **** tier list updates. don't argue. it ain't his. asshats.

The Executive · Apr 7, 2008

It'll probably be at least 6-8 mpnths from JP release (meaning July-Sep.) before there are enough tourney results to be distilled in to an actual 'tier list', if one can indeed be drawn up. PAL players, bless their unfortunate souls, shouldn't count on one until at least this time next year, unless Ninty ships PAL edition w/o gameplay changes like they did Melee. Take these charts with a grain of salt/pepper/your preferred metaphorical spice.

That said, I'm surprised Koops is that high...well, not really. I main him for a reason.

Pubik Vengeance · Apr 7, 2008

What the hell?

Since tiers are only measured by how often a character is used in a tournament, then they obviously do exist, unless tournament directors force people to play each character equally.

hario.hige · Apr 7, 2008

Uh, no. Tiers are determined by where characters place in a tournament. If many Wolf's (wolves, lol) win many tournaments, he will be top tier.

"...Why the hell is Fox higher up than Pit?"

Because Japanese players are better with Fox. I don't know what you're trying to prove by making that kind of comment.

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

Harmonicry said:
just follow the **** tier list updates. don't argue. it ain't his. asshats.

eyyy maui too good
LOL asshats

Trozz · Apr 7, 2008

Wow. This tier list is so accurate.

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

Trozz said:
Wow. This tier list is so accurate.

care to elaborate....?

the latest "chara rank"? the week before? or the week before that???
(which i've carefully denoted isn't conventionally a tier(s), as they are weekly tourney data compilations of which chara is winning in japan.

btw this is my first venture into the abyss that is known as brawl boards
please please please humor me with decent discussion

-sonny- · Apr 7, 2008

It's hard to tell if it's accurate or not, because for all we know the Japanese may of found a super elite technique with Bowser that makes him top tier which we will not figure out for another 2.3 years.

Thino · Apr 7, 2008

its acurate simply by the fact its based on who's winning or not.

no techniques.
no personal opinions.
final destination.

The Executive · Apr 7, 2008

@ Sonny: If that were Panda or someone else would eventually be directed to it and spill the beans. That said, I hope there is some revolutionary new Bowser tech. Maybe some sort of new Bowsercide which only kills the target and not you?

indie_dave · Apr 7, 2008

Thino said:
its acurate simply by the fact its based on who's winning or not.

no techniques.
no personal opinions.
final destination.

LOL

personal impresions:

1v1s VS. 2v2s: at this point, i personally do not like brawl 1v1s very much. wayyy campy and slow...i can't beat any good falcos = =;;
when considering 2v2s, however, the exact reverse holds true for me:
i'm stoked about 2v2s.

Ness-Lucas/Zelda/G&W teams are tons of fun, and lower "ranked" charas like Sonic, PokeTore and Zamus do amazingly well as partners. my local crew has a Jiggs-Yoshi team that i'm really looking forward to see pull off their craziest team combos in tourneys.

Mario impressions: i personally think Mario has good potential to move up, being a solid chara that can counter and combo well onstage. his recovery might have problems though.

Pit: has been progressively moving backwards, with a huge drop last week. Can anybody venture solid reasoning as to why?

Ike, Zelda and Peach: Watch out, maybe their momentum will continue (especially Zelda). i had a decent peach in melee and even manage to win with her post-brawlnerf, to my surprise, so i might just keep her in my deck of cards

ICs: i have the hardest time against Falco, but gave a main here the most trouble (of my charas) with ICs, even just with Popo. Any impressions as to being S-ranked last week?

/sigh... discussing melee is discouraged everywhere = =;;

DstyCube · Apr 8, 2008

Why is Ness below Yoshi? I guess he must really suck.

Shouldn't this be in the Brawl Tactical Discussion forum?

Fletch · Apr 8, 2008

The only things that seem out of place is that Wolf is so high and Pit is so low... rest looks alright.

kr3wman · Apr 8, 2008

The 'Chara Ranks' changes too much from one week to another to be accurate, it seems.

Trozz · Apr 8, 2008

Pit is dropping out because he doesn't have much for advanced techniques. Look at ICs; people are discovering insane combos for them (e.g. Nana holds and throws into Popo's fully charged f-smash). Pit just Hyphen Smashes.

choknater · Apr 8, 2008

kr3wman said:
The 'Chara Ranks' changes too much from one week to another to be accurate, it seems.

What about major changes warrants inaccuracy? It seems very accurate to me, and the major changes probably imply that the game is quite balanced, and the intricacies being discovered about each character can cause these changes. Generally, the top/mid/bottom characters are staying where they are. It seems totally legit to me. You're talking about Ikki and japanese pros here.

Doc Chronic · Apr 8, 2008

Trozz said:
Pit is dropping out because he doesn't have much for advanced techniques. Look at ICs; people are discovering insane combos for them (e.g. Nana holds and throws into Popo's fully charged f-smash). Pit just Hyphen Smashes.

yea i have seen some vids with some very nasty IC's.

kr3wman · Apr 8, 2008

choknater said:
What about major changes warrants inaccuracy? It seems very accurate to me, and the major changes probably imply that the game is quite balanced, and the intricacies being discovered about each character can cause these changes. Generally, the top/mid/bottom characters are staying where they are. It seems totally legit to me. You're talking about Ikki and japanese pros here.

I don't really get your post.

First you said that the major changes makes it a balanced game, and then completely change track and say stuff about Characters staying where they should be.

And I'm not saying the tier list is inaccurate as is, but rather that it changes every week with one character going Top and another going Bottom.

SmashChu · Apr 8, 2008

Here is the deal with tiers. They are based on Tournament play. If you are playing with your friend, with items, 4 players and no regard to stage, then tiers don't apply. But standard tournament rules are where this applies, since tournaments have such a set structure.

TheMagicalKuja · Apr 8, 2008

Because the Japanese have a puny Sonic fanbase they're not as determined to work with him as they are here... not surprised.

indie_dave · Apr 8, 2008

choknater said:
What about major changes warrants inaccuracy? It seems very accurate to me, and the major changes probably imply that the game is quite balanced, and the intricacies being discovered about each character can cause these changes. Generally, the top/mid/bottom characters are staying where they are. It seems totally legit to me. You're talking about Ikki and japanese pros here.

it's surprising at how a number of charas DON'T move very much from week to week as far numerical values go.
for example, DDD was 18th twice and 20th twice in the past four weeklies, while Snake, ROB, Falco and MK retained their values for the past three weeks. poor Ganon and Jiggs are hurting pretty bad in tourneys way at the bottom of bottom, where Yoshi was also occupying until last week.

see one of the biggest values in watching japan lists is noting the BIG movements.
Fumi and other hellabadass Yoshi's are starting to wreck face just from last week, with the implementation of new combos and techs. i guarantee this trend will continue.

therefore, everytime you see a chara move up or down a lot, significant metagame changes are occurring at the top level. that's why it's silly to dismiss even the hardest charas to win with atm as pure crap.

i'll see about posting a spreadsheeted copy of these weeklies/chara ranks.
pm me if you want a copy sooner.

kr3wman said:
I don't really get your post.

First you said that the major changes makes it a balanced game, and then completely change track and say stuff about Characters staying where they should be.

And I'm not saying the tier list is inaccurate as is, but rather that it changes every week with one character going Top and another going Bottom.

read again. choknater's post makes perfect sense.
his point is that the general placement of charas in japan tourneys are relatively stable atm, which are good indications for how charas will stack up in the future. he's not denying the reality that things are changing....i look at his post as observation on the fact that ppl looking at chara ranks can take them as dependable markers, in a general sense at least.

Trozz said:
Pit is dropping out because he doesn't have much for advanced techniques. Look at ICs; people are discovering insane combos for them (e.g. Nana holds and throws into Popo's fully charged f-smash). Pit just Hyphen Smashes.

i'm so behind current brawl metagame lol i'll go look on the ICs boards after midterms = =;;
lol again, a good reason to watch japan chara ranks: they mark significant metagame changes.

DstyCube said:
Why is Ness below Yoshi? I guess he must really suck.

Shouldn't this be in the Brawl Tactical Discussion forum?

hahahaha
you keep saying that
as will everybody else
until s-class pkt jutsu mow through haetr grillz in tourney ^_^
HOOOOO0mg FUMI :O

edit: replied to kr3wman

SabinX · Apr 8, 2008

japan makes me laugh. cant make a guilty gear tier for smash.

besides *** tier lists were always far off from american and US > japan in smash.

indie_dave · Apr 8, 2008

japan's always done it that way fyi >.>
they did it that way for fighters from snk, capcom, tekken, every major fighter that i know of

japan terminology =/= american terminology
japanese [language] =/= american language

japan players however, are analogous to where american players will be in a few months (obviously because they got the game first)

A Look at Japan's *WEEKLY* キャラランク "Chara Ranks" (use Official Sticky for Tier Debate)

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Cadet

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

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Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

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Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Cadet

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Obsessed

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Banned via Warnings

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Information

Network

A Look at Japan's WEEKLY キャラランク "Chara Ranks" (use Official Sticky for Tier Debate)