Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion Update: 15/05/08 Spoilers

Scrubs · Feb 8, 2008

This thread is a place to intelligently discuss the development of an Australian Brawl Ruleset. Everyones input is valued. Check below for updates.

Recent Updates:

[MAY 15]
- Removed gigantic spiel at the start of this post
- Moved Corneria and Bridge of Eldin to Counterpick
- Added some basic info about stages for those who weren't with us for Melee
- Added 'Banning Stages'

The Australian SSBB Ruleset

Stages

- Neutral stages are set to the Random Select.
- The first match of each set must be Random
- After the first match the loser of the previous match may choose a stage from either the Neutral list or the Counterpick list
- No stage that has been previously played in a set may be chosen by a player IF they have previously had a victory on said stage

Neutral

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpicks

Corneria [D]
Bridge of Eldin [D]
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mario's Circuit [D]
Great Sea
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Battleship Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Distant Planet
Skyworld
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island [D]
Green Hill Zone [D]
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Ride
Onet [D]
Brinstar
Green Greens

Banned

WarioWare
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Donkey Kong Aracde/75M
Port Town
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Big Blue
Hyrule Temple
Rumble Falls
The Summit
Elektroplankton
Spear Pillar

Banning Stages

- Each player may ban ONE stage that they do not wish to play on
- This stage may be from either the Neutral list or the Counterpick List
- The player must ban their chosen stage either before the set starts or immediately after the first game

The Dedede Rule

Originally proposed by CATS and Shaz this rule is designed to prevent people abusing King DeDeDe's d-throw chainthrow.

Dedede may not choose to play on stages that have a 'D' next to them.
Dedede's opponent may choose to play on one of these stages if they wish.

Stock

3 Stock - 6 Minute time limit

Items

All Items are to be turned off.

In the options menu Items must be turned to 'OFF'.

Not the frequency turned to 'NONE' as this allows some characters to obtain items by using special moves.

- Scrubs

Get that Rat · Feb 8, 2008

I don't know.. Only a scoop full of us have Brawl atm >_<

Scrubs · Feb 8, 2008

Get that Rat said:
I don't know.. Only a scoop full of us have Brawl atm >_<

I know that!

Read the first line of my post

I know it is to early to solidify a rule set for Brawl

Sirias · Feb 8, 2008

Well what's to say the people who have Brawl now can't contribute to this thread in the meantime, until the other players get it/play it? D:

I hope that our rules and such don't differ too greatly from Japan or America, or anywhere else, whatever that is.
I would think that all PAL users would just stick with the same ruleset.
But, as you say, Australia is 'unique'. :D
I hope in a good way.

I never knew you were so into Brawl, though, Ben. Intriguing. =]

I'm afraid at this time I can't really give any insight. And probably not for a long time. That being said the ruleset will probably already be made before I even play this game. Hahah.

I don't think it would really differ that much from Melee, though... Items and stages are the like will be banned, certain moves to stall (if there are such)... there aren't really that many 'rules' other than just common sense, as well as making the game 'relatively' fun and 'fair', to say the least.
Or well, from what I know.
I don't really know the rules for Melee either. There ya go... Fail. =]

CAOTIC · Feb 8, 2008

Cuute, Ben's excited and preempted a thread we can't answer completely, awwww <3

I think we'll probably develop a bias towards a US ruleset over time; their MLG ruleset was impressively comprehensive. My only gripes with rulesets all over the world was that there was too much reliance on 'neutral' stages and not enough exploration into other stages.

Maybe we can change this?

Oh, and I admire your ambition to let Australia stand out

FiErCe_oNi · Feb 8, 2008

yeeeaahh a laid back ruleset for a laid back country

Suntan Luigi · Feb 8, 2008

FiErCe_oNi said:
yeeeaahh a laid back ruleset for a laid back country

Well said.

ComboTurtle · Feb 8, 2008

i think 3 stock is a good place to start, 4 stock seems a little too long for this game also there are alot of stages that seem quite neutral to most characters idk about the rest.

Dekar289 · Feb 8, 2008

yeah, 3 seems like the perfect number at the moment, 2 is a little extreme, but 4 is too long, so...

I think the longer people play the game and as more techniques are found, etc, people will kill and be killed faster, and matches can then be extended to 4-stock.

ACCELERATE · Feb 9, 2008

Lol we are trying not to copy the people we watch on youtube...

But i think 3 stock will work just as fine as 4 would.haha. In most tournys we almost always seem to be running out of time anyways.

Noes Cao is too cheap on all his stages neutrals only!

<3

Also i think all the old neutral stages from melee should be kept as neutrals.

Except maybe yoshis story as it is even more pro marth now considering no one can fly around the stages or take advantage of the lag of his moves and such. Sorry syke :D You still have battlefield lol.

Another thing. Any stages built i think should be not allowed either as it would be too hard to keep it consistent.

Thats it for now Ben, Untill i know more about the game.

Peace Out

Bjay · Feb 9, 2008

Is Fox able to still kill people with a down throw on Pit's stage (the stage that collapses)

I think I read that at the expo you could kill people on that stage easily with fox by just down throwing D:?

*shrug* Anything else I wanted to say has sorta been said by others already

Scrubs · Feb 9, 2008

ACCELERATE said:
Also i think all the old neutral stages from melee should be kept as neutrals.

This is the type of thing that should be avoided.

It is a new game and some of these stages may prove unfair (I highly doubt it)

We shouldn't assume:

'As it was in Melee, it shall also be in Brawl'

Bjay · Feb 9, 2008

ja. Brawl isn't a Melee Part 2

I suppose things will come from trial and error

ACCELERATE · Feb 9, 2008

Brawl is the sequal to melee? Correct me if im wrong.

Shady_james · Feb 10, 2008

Kevin rudds the sequel to kim beazley, doesn't mean he's obese

Redact · Feb 10, 2008

bjay, you cant throw through the bottom now, i tested it and it works just like normal dthrow on the clouds now, no gimpy kill

Cronos_Rainbow · Feb 10, 2008

Kills in this game come EXTREMELY fast if you have any idea how to play. Saying 3 stock over 4 is not a good idea.
Neutral stages in Melee were never neutral. It was clear to everyone with even a little experience that stages such as Marthfield, Peachs' Dreamland and Falco destination were all there to solidify the top tiers, where stages that would help out lower characters like Green Greens were cut because they were too fair. Screw neutral stages - in Brawl the only stages I would consider broken are those that move which put HUGE disadvantages on those who can't keep speed with them like Falls or the Big Blue etc.
No items - No not even smash balls before it's suggested because they are the most biased and broken item there is.
BTW - Brawl is more SSB part 3 than SSMB part 2.

Bjay · Feb 10, 2008

That's good to hear Redact

Thanks for the heads up!

ACCELERATE said:
Brawl is the sequal to melee? Correct me if im wrong.

Sequels and trequels mean it's the next, not the same

Scrubs · Feb 10, 2008

Cronos_Rainbow said:
Kills in this game come EXTREMELY fast if you have any idea how to play. Saying 3 stock over 4 is not a good idea.
Neutral stages in Melee were never neutral. It was clear to everyone with even a little experience that stages such as Marthfield, Peachs' Dreamland and Falco destination were all there to solidify the top tiers, where stages that would help out lower characters like Green Greens were cut because they were too fair. Screw neutral stages - in Brawl the only stages I would consider broken are those that move which put HUGE disadvantages on those who can't keep speed with them like Falls or the Big Blue etc.
No items - No not even smash balls before it's suggested because they are the most biased and broken item there is.
BTW - Brawl is more SSB part 3 than SSMB part 2.

Finally a post from someone with the game!

I haven't actually got the game yet. So I am not going to post about it.

I'm glad to see that people want, for the most part, to develop our own way of playing Brawl.

Redact · Feb 10, 2008

as shaz said, 4 stock doesnt feel long, even after countless matches with dekar/atticus/x and his crew
then even against some cpus or such it doesnt feel long, i havent timed it yet though, might get around to that later
ps: scrubs, i already have the game too XD i unlocked all the stages and characters, if you want i could maybe provide some info? ask me a few things if needed

Bjay · Feb 10, 2008

how many melee stages are there? which melee stages made it back?

are there any 64 stages? :D

total stages in total? how many brawl stages? what are your personal favourites.

Redact · Feb 10, 2008

31 brawl stages, 10 melee stages
ill list em all after school lol, time to go

Mic_128 · Feb 10, 2008

Played it yesterday for 8 hours, is awesoooooooome!

Anyway, while I partly agree with Shaz, I have to say go go Final Smashes. The whole fighting to get to them is one of the most fun things I've done, and with the exception of Kirby's (who I don't think anyone actually played, heh) they aren't that bad. Landmaster isn't as deadly as I was expecting it to be, and the rest, while damaging aren't really deadly, with a few exceptions and they're hard to pull off (Marth, Zelda) Actually we think someone managed to shield Marth's, heh. (More than likely was just running out as he got to the other) And then thee's Dk's. Pooor DK.

Bjay · Feb 10, 2008

I'm surprised that DK drew the short straw on this one, I thought (as well as everyone else I'm sure) would think DK's would be power-based related.

Scrubs · Feb 11, 2008

From memory there aren't any 64 stages.

Go final smash hey Mic. I think that maybe teams may hold a place for the final smash as well as the team healer. We will have to wait and see.

A list of all the stages would be great Redact

Redact · Feb 11, 2008

my lowdown

as shaz said, smash balls are entirely broken, i dont even have to list the thousands of situations that it becomes pure luck, and it wrecks any balance this game even has now
same thing goes with team healer, oh look it spawned near me, free health due to luck
thats a no no for competitive
final smashes are fun, dont get me wrong, but it just wrecks a chunk of the skill involved

stages:
--brawl stages-- (this is they exact order the appear in the menu)
battlefield
final destination
defino plaza
luigis mansion
mushroomy kingdom
mario circuit
rumble falls
bridge of eldin
great sea
norfair
frigate orpheon
yoshi's island
battleship halberd
lylat cruise
pokemon stadium 2
spear pillar
port town
castle siege
distant planet
smashville
new pork city
the summit
skyworld
75m (retro DK stage)
mario bros
flat zone 2
pictochat
electroplankton stage
shadow moses island
green hill zone

--melee stages--
hyrule
yoshis island
jungle japes
fourside
corneria
rainbow ride
green greens
big blue
brinstar
pokemon stadium

CAOTIC · Feb 11, 2008

Someone said small ball?

WE'RE ALL GOING KIRBY NOW - LOL, STUPID

Mic_128 · Feb 11, 2008

Redact said:
same thing goes with team healer, oh look it spawned near me, free health due to luck

you do know for team healer to work you have to throw and hit an ally? and if you hit an enemy they get healed? and that the risk of picking it up leaves you restricted as to how you defend yourself?

Team healer has some merit.

Scrubs · Feb 11, 2008

Mic_128 said:
you do know for team healer to work you have to throw and hit an ally? and if you hit an enemy they get healed? and that the risk of picking it up leaves you restricted as to how you defend yourself?

Team healer has some merit.

This means that it requires strategy i.e. a certain amount of skill to implement.

I think Team Healer is an interesting item. Worth exploration.

Bjay · Feb 11, 2008

No 64 stages? Aw, I'll miss you Dream Land, both stage wise, texture wise, and music wise.

I think through a lot of Trial and Errors and discussions like these, I'm sure some of the new features can be implemented into our own ruleset.

When I play Brawl, I can't wait to play with Final Smashes ^_^"

rmusgrave · Feb 11, 2008

Redact, it's not just luck. As the Kishes constantly say and I agree with, a smash game with items becomes a game of controlling the map as well as fighting 1v1.

That's not to say that an item won't spawn next to someone and give them the advantage. However, if you can control the stage well enough (e.g. keeping to the middle of the stage and always fighting your opponent to the outside or keeping your opponent restricted to platforms by dominating ground play etc.) then you have a significant advantage that you simply wouldn't get without items. And to say that is without skill would be completely wrong.

Smash balls are completely imbalanced - that doesn't stop them from being fun. We're not playing FFA tournaments, in a serious match you will have to compete for and fight for the stage control and when the smash ball comes out you will fight for that too.

*Advocate for items in Brawl, with exceptions*

And yes, I have heard all the arguments anti-items and I still believe that an element of the game should be stage control and item counter strategies, so you would have to put forward an extremely convincing argument for why items should be off completely.

----
Items that should be off:
-Stalling items (items that heal, invincibility and hammer where people just run away and delay the fight)
-Exploding on attack items (no dash attack -> self explosion)

That's my opinion ^_^.

CAOTIC · Feb 11, 2008

The right items stop people camping! I've done item tournaments before - they're so fun! And the best players generally win, just the same.

Of course, items also mean i can beat DSF... -_-
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-8482492827868744267

never mind, he showed me...
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-3232914712674740646

King Kong · Feb 11, 2008

This is an awsome idea. I love the idea that Australia can develop its own variation of the smash ruleset, I think it will help to make our playstyle more unique. \

I think items are cool.

peace out

Scrubs · Feb 11, 2008

From what I understand. The reason that items were completely removed from Melee is because of randomly exploding containers.

Containers being boxes, capsules and such.

Does this still happen in Brawl?

Sloth · Feb 12, 2008

I thought items were faded out of melee because different people had alternative ideas of what/what shouldn't be allowed in the game. This meant that eventually if you keep banning certain items due to cheapness, you end up destroying most of the items in the game.
So in that sense you miswell turn them off.

My view however, when you play a game on a competivite level, you can argue you that certain things allowed would advocate skill. Which in a sense is true, but it back-fires as alot of times it also advocates luck.

When it comes down to testing your skill your aim in a game is to develop a ruleset which nullifies as much luck as possible, so your only left with the most-true sense of skill to deterime who is best.

I believe items should be turned off, I can understand the argument for their existant, but I personally would want to play a competivite game with most of the luck taken out. No matter what items you keep, you may get control of the map, but you won't get control of what appears

Mic_128 · Feb 12, 2008

The thing is, all this talk of removing luck, does this mean that Luigi, Peach and Game and Watch (

and King Dedede

) should be taken out because of their random lucky attacks? The fact is there IS luck in this game, and I don't see any reason why only these characters should get the luck. Like it has been said, items (the good ones, such as beam swords) don't affect it much, other than the game becomes a bit more focused on stage control, even though that's something that's generally done anyway.

Scrubs: That was the major reason, explosive containers appearing in the middle of people's attacks.

Jaz · Feb 12, 2008

man this argument is an age old
should items be in melee, and now should they be in brawl

the scene decided to take them out of melee, because like slothy said they add chance into the game, how can skill be the only determining factor of a match when there is luck involved?

personally i don't think smash was ever created to be played competitively, that's any version...

Brawl has been created by taking out specific elements of the game that only professionals used in melee and smash bros, WDing and dash dancing are gone, now tripping over is another random aspect

all we can do as people who aspire to play this game in a serious manner is eliminate as much chance as possible, mic it can't be helped, we played melee with certain characters having luck, we'll just have to do it again.

i say no to items, thats obvious (cause i play kirby and his Fsmash sucks balls).
any item could mean edge guarding capabilities, characters without any range are screwed, it just adds more randomness to the game.
certain items?, lets give characters that already have quick combo attacks e.g metaknight, a gun
that would be nice and balanced.

on the other side of that, pit pretty much is metaknight with a gun. the game would completely change, it would no longer be about reading just a persons game, it would be reading possible games that could take place if an item was brought in, explosions in the face aren't fun either, one person getting a good poke ball the other mew or something.

Ryan if you could show me a complete set of items that were unbiased, and could not benefit certain characters more than others, that I'd say yes, but that list is pretty much impossible. one person holding on to an item that completely screws a character alters the outcome of the game unfairly.

...about stock and time limits, we are way off deciding how appropriate those things are, we havn't learned how to destroy peoples stock like we have in melee, so far 3 stock is looking up but shaz believes that if played right, 4 stock could still be the go.

but till we know the games mechanics, what moves stay strong after being used x amount of times and such, its pretty hard to determine stock yet.

I don't usually contribute to these things, but australia's own rule set would be awesome

king_neeso · Feb 12, 2008

Shady_james said:
Kevin rudds the sequel to kim beazley, doesn't mean he's obese

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA i loled, that is a very true point. yeah man im all for 100% no banning anything. that should be aussie rules. smash balls are in all the way. and if i hear one person complaining about temple and fox shooting and running just ban fox i will beet them in brawl...lol maybe not... but the temple is fun if played right. if people are gunna run away they should be banned. but again that will never happen so i guess il have to put up with my fave stages banned and just simple flat stages with no items....yawn.

Sloth · Feb 12, 2008

Mic, the fact that a few characters have luck based moves doesn't greatly change the meta-game. Consider this. Items have random spawns and random chance. Its Random.

The characters have an extremely low chance of pulling off a move that we know they will do. In a sense you could say that is controlled luck. Only they can do it and we know what they can do. And its limited to the point it doesn't exploit or change the meta-game.

Nearly ever game in existance has a tiny amount of luck. FPS have spawn points, Dota/WC3 has damage ranges the list could go on and on. But There is a reason why you see nearly every single high-competivite game with competive people attemping to create an absence of luck as minial as possible when it comes to tournaments.

Adding items only increases luck and decreases skill. The reverse that you want from a high level game. I understand the argument for items, but I just cannot see how items would Increase skill to the point of that there luck influnce wouldn't be much of a problem. Prove to me wrong I spose. Brawl is a new game.

I like your arguement Jaz, I actually didn't think of how each item would effect certain characters.

King_Neeso, imo people will still play like that. But you still need rules and certain things banned when it comes to tournaments.

king_neeso · Feb 12, 2008

lol i know but i thro mini tournys at my place have a few beers and its the best thing. but i do understand where your coming from too. but if aussie rules are gunna be unique what else can be done...or some tournys should be no holds barred lol or the people can say like what levels are banned before the match starts, and they agree on the level...that way people can then have a fairish level eg if both people are great smashers and dont do the fox shoot and run thing they should be able to have a match on temple.

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