Just how much have we twisted Sakurai's original words?

Big-Cat · Dec 2, 2007

This past weekend I have realized that two common things supposedly said by Sakurai "no clones" and "more girls" are nothing more than misinterpretations.

The "no clones" statement derives from Sakurai stating

But, although you'll see characters from the last game, this time, on a significant scale [Yes, this is exact], they will be remade. It is this sort of thing [This sentence is slang, so there really isn't a good English translation for it].

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642&highlight=samurai+panda

We have taken this to as that no veteran in the game will be a clone of another. Eventually, we have taken this as there being no clones in the game, period.

Now, for the "more girls" statement. This derives from Sakurai commenting on Zero Suit Samus. Sakurai said:

I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series. Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/710/710752p1.html .

The only thing involving girl characters is that Sakurai was glad to include her to the already small, established list of girls in the SSB series.

We need to stop trying to take his words and take them as something that goes into our own personal favors.

Now, are there any more statements like this out there?

PrettyGoodYear · Dec 2, 2007

I find the Zamus quote weird. He didn't really *ADD* a character. So we have 2 Metroid characters, plus what, 4 Girls. The 2 Metroid characters are Samus Aran, and half of the girls are Samus Aran... OK...

vesperview · Dec 2, 2007

The only characters that deserve to be decloned are Ganondorf, Falco and Young Link, I doubt all of the others are returning, it's safe to assume clones are gone.

Jmax · Dec 2, 2007

NOT SAKURAI said:
There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar.

They have been indeed twisted alot...

For one, these are translated by some white guy, who was also the representative at E4All.. That translation is also really diffrent in Japanese..

Big-Cat · Dec 2, 2007

Actually, some people translated the original Japanese as "ima made" which pretty much means "up until now".

DeuceBlade · Dec 2, 2007

I think Ness and Lucas (if ness is in brawl), should share a move set formula similar to Mario and luigi's where they aren't exactly clones, but they have similar moves due to a common relationship.. mario and luigi are brothers, and Ness & Lucas come from the same family of PK users

Punchline · Dec 2, 2007

Twisted like a wet towel.

Nuff said.

"But, although you'll see characters from the last game, this time, on a significant scale [Yes, this is exact], they will be remade. It is this sort of thing [This sentence is slang, so there really isn't a good English translation for it]. "

This could mean possible removed characters could get new B movesets, such as Ness. Same NAME for the move and EFFECT, but different in looks. Wouldnt that work?

Big-Cat · Dec 2, 2007

DeuceBlade said:
I think Ness and Lucas (if ness is in brawl), should share a move set formula similar to Mario and luigi's where they aren't exactly clones, but they have similar moves due to a common relationship.. mario and luigi are brothers, and Ness & Lucas come from the same family of PK users

Kumatora, Paula, Poo, and Ana are from the same family. That doesn't work.

PrettyGoodYear · Dec 2, 2007

DeuceBlade said:
I think Ness and Lucas (if ness is in brawl), should share a move set formula similar to Mario and luigi's where they aren't exactly clones, but they have similar moves due to a common relationship.. mario and luigi are brothers, and Ness & Lucas come from the same family of PK users

Thing is, Luigi has been around since almost forever. He's more important to Nintendo so his inclusion is worth it, even if his moveset is similar to Mario. Ness is not as important to Nintendo as Luigi.

Big-Cat · Dec 2, 2007

PrettyGoodYear said:
Thing is, Luigi has been around since almost forever. He's more important to Nintendo so his inclusion is worth it, even if his moveset is similar to Mario. Ness is not as important to Nintendo as Luigi.

Not to mention that Mario and Luigi are similar by nature. They're twins and were originally pallet swaps of each other.

EPX2 · Dec 2, 2007

Jmax said:
They have been indeed twisted alot...

For one, these are translated by some white guy, who was also the representative at E4All.. That translation is also really diffrent in Japanese..

No, the translation is virtually the same in all languages - no use in trying to deny that. What some people are doing is twisting the meaning of that statement to make it seem as if Sakurai is suggesting that Ness isn't returning - despite the fact that he's used the phrase "up until now" (or at least, a slight variant of it) in other subsequent updates to refer to elements that are returning in Brawl.

See here and here.

Big-Cat · Dec 2, 2007

EPX2 said:
No, the translation is virtually the same in all languages - no use in trying to deny that. What some people are doing is twisting the meaning of that statement to make it seem as if Sakurai is suggesting that Ness isn't returning - despite the fact that he's used the phrase "up until now" (or at least, a slight variant of it) in other subsequent updates to refer to elements that are returning in Brawl.

See here and here.

The thing with those two is that the handicap was completely revamped and rapid A moves can be now done by just holding the button down. Those two are different from their original counterparts which weren't change in between SSB and SSBM.

EPX2 · Dec 2, 2007

KumaOso said:
The thing with those two is that the handicap was completely revamped and rapid A moves can be now done by just holding the button down. Those two are different from their original counterparts which weren't change in between SSB and SSBM.

I'm aware of that. However, if the statements containing that particular phrase were to be isolated from their respective updates and shown to you (without you seeing the other updates), would you be able to determine that a change has been to these elements? With the handicap update, absolutely not.

Smash Bros. DOJO!! said:
So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series.

No mention or even implication that the handicap system has been changed is made in that particular quote. At best, you would assume that Sakurai is saying that handicaps are not returning in Brawl (which is obviously false). You'd have to read the entire update to find out that Sakurai has made some changes in regards to how handicaps work.

With the combo update, though, you probably could ascertain that a change has been made in the way rapid attacks can be performed based off the wording of that statement:

Smash Bros. DOJO!! said:
Up until now, standard combos, or button-press combos, were done primarily by tapping the attack button repeatedly.

So you do have a point there.

paralasalud · Dec 2, 2007

of course, most of us are twisting his words in our favor.

vesperview · Dec 2, 2007

DeuceBlade said:
mario and luigi are brothers, and Ness & Lucas come from the same family of PK users

That's a terrible comparison.

Chaosblade77 · Dec 2, 2007

But, although you'll see characters from the last game, this time, on a significant scale [Yes, this is exact], they will be remade. It is this sort of thing [This sentence is slang, so there really isn't a good English translation for it].

There was also a quote by Sakurai saying not all of the characters will return:

#81-90: Ah yes, my big translation. This is the translation that started this all. I cut down the original post a bit because it was so long:

After my initial quick translation that I posted on GameFAQs, I was bombarded with people shouting "LIAR! NOT TRUE! STFU TROLLER!" so I decided to post a full translation.

"In order to prove you naysayers wrong, here is a full, nearly exact, translation of what he said. My own personal commentary is provided in the [ ].

DISCLAIMER: Sakurai uses very ambiguous language in his response. So try not to nitpick the English in this passage too much.

"Sorry. I'm not very smart but I can't tell a lie so I'm just going to write it.
As for the previous game's characters, some of them will disappear. Definitely.

For the last game, we struggled to assemble 26 characters. We tried really hard and unintentionally reached that number.

But, although you'll see characters from the last game, this time, on a significant scale [Yes, this is exact], they will be remade. It is this sort of thing [This sentence is slang, so there really isn't a good English translation for it].

For argument's sake, no matter how much staff there is, with just manpower we can’t just put in everything, and as my own job [read: workload] does not decrease, there is a limit.

But, the consumer’s desired things to be included [There really isn’t a good English equivalent for that word] are weeeeell understood. You will be [he doesn’t give a subject to the sentence, so I’m using ‘you’] happy regarding the adapted characters moving around on different stages as well [The email he is responding to complained about how there are only 3 stages from SSB that are stages in SSBM, so I guess this infers that there wont be a whole lot of previous stages].

So, we will once again struggle to create characters. I cannot promise you anything other than that.”

And that is exactly what Sakurai said. Hope you guys enjoy the info ^_^ "

It's obvious that clones are going to go before unique characters. The quote you referenced just says that some characters will be very different than they were in Melee. Eg. Clones getting new movesets. While it doesn't state that in a completely straightforward manner, it's the most logical way to accept his information. As far as "no clones" he admitted he didn't like the idea of them, but they were also put in Melee while he didn't like them, so they could potentially be in Brawl. With 27 months of development time (about 3x more than melee had), however, I expect all unique characters.

I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series. Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her.

This has been twisted a lot in numerous ways. I am not sure about him wanting more female characters in another statement, but this does show that he is interested in more of them. That doesn't mean that just because a character is female she is getting in over a male though. I have said a few times that being female doesn't really help a character much at all.

And the Metroid part also nearly confirms a third playable rep... since he said he wanted to add more characters (plural) from the Metroid series and we have only gotten one (who is actually only half IMO), although that very well could include ATs (and there is a Metroid AT).

Cosine · Dec 4, 2007

I hope the same thing can be said about the whole, only 3 Third Partys in Brawl thing

Drclaw411 · Dec 4, 2007

vesperview said:
The only characters that deserve to be decloned are Ganondorf, Falco and Young Link, I doubt all of the others are returning, it's safe to assume clones are gone.

Luigi is offended

adumbrodeus · Dec 5, 2007

Having taken Japanese, I was wondering about this, because Japanese has two phrases that are translated into english as "up until now", one of which means, "up until now this occurred, but not any longer", and one which means, "this has been occurring to this point" and doesn't have anything about whether it will continue that way or not, it's just a statement of how things have been thus far.

Yeah, so people, take the translations with a grain of salt, you ALWAYS lose something with translation, and some translations are simply poor making you lose more. This is especially true of phrases without equivalents in English.

OysterMeister · Dec 5, 2007

Chaosblade77 said:
It's obvious that clones are going to go before unique characters. The quote you referenced just says that some characters will be very different than they were in Melee. Eg. Clones getting new movesets. While it doesn't state that in a completely straightforward manner, it's the most logical way to accept his information. As far as "no clones" he admitted he didn't like the idea of them, but they were also put in Melee while he didn't like them, so they could potentially be in Brawl.

I agree, the clones getting new movesets is a logical conclusion, since it seems weird to remake a unique moveset before remaking a cloned moveset. But that's about as far as you can take Sakurai's words. Assuming that Brawl won't have it's very own brand new clones is a stretch too many people have faith in, for instance.

Chaosblade77 said:
With 27 months of development time (about 3x more than melee had), however, I expect all unique characters.

I sometimes wonder. I think it's not the amount of development time they have, but whether or not the time was enough to get everything in.
And Brawl was delayed, so we know that the development team ran out of time at least once and had to get a two month extension.
Overall, I'd say it's possible that even 27 months may not be enough time for an all-unique character roster, and we may indeed see some clones.

Chaosblade77 said:
And the Metroid part also nearly confirms a third playable rep... since he said he wanted to add more characters (plural) from the Metroid series and we have only gotten one (who is actually only half IMO), although that very well could include ATs (and there is a Metroid AT).

I've never quite been able to take this statement as a 100% confirmation of another Metroid character... but I've always really, really, hoped.

volbound1700 · Dec 5, 2007

We also assume that since rules existed in Melee and Brawl about series, that they exist in this game as well.

They also read the statement about 2-3 third parties to strictly when Sakurai used the word "tentatively" 1-2 more third party.

BTW, why did the clones offend everyone? I wasn't bothered by them. Rather have a clone then NOTHING at all in that spot?

Sabrewulf238 · Dec 5, 2007

Well since Sakurai stated that there were few females in melee I'd say it's very possible he was thinking a bit about that anyway when he was making brawl.

Ferro De Lupe · Dec 5, 2007

Drclaw411 said:
Luigi is offended

SSB (Clone Luigi) -> SSBM (Not Clone Luigi)...

In order for one to be de-cloned, one must BE a clone.

Cosine · Dec 5, 2007

I think if they do have clones they should make clones of Characters like Pokemon Trainer or ZS Samus, I mean that for only one of there movesets, such as cloning PT's Charzad as Flygon or Dragonite

Cosine · Dec 5, 2007

Jmax said:
They have been indeed twisted alot...

For one, these are translated by some white guy, who was also the representative at E4All.. That translation is also really diffrent in Japanese..

It may be true about the fact that the Japnese site didn't say that, but that some white guy probly knows who's in and whos not, and he wouldn't just say that if Ness was going to return.

Big-Cat · Dec 5, 2007

volbound1700 said:
We also assume that since rules existed in Melee and Brawl about series, that they exist in this game as well.

They also read the statement about 2-3 third parties to strictly when Sakurai used the word "tentatively" 1-2 more third party.

BTW, why did the clones offend everyone? I wasn't bothered by them. Rather have a clone then NOTHING at all in that spot?

Exactly. Apparently, people aren't aware of the word maybe.

I think clones offend because of Dr. Mario and Pichu. They should be welcomed because clones are in other fighting games.

jay~B · Dec 5, 2007

I think this thread is good and don't take this as a bad thing but shouldn't this go under Brawl General discusion

Big-Cat · Dec 5, 2007

Not really. This is about characters, not Brawl as a whole.

DeuceBlade · Dec 5, 2007

People have twisted Sakurai's words to deconfirm ness when Sakurai could have clearly said Ness was out but he did not, he still left it open and only a narrow minded person would think "up until now" (although used more than once for different purposes) could automatically mean Ness is out, from my knowledge of those people they will never believe hes will come back so there is no point really in feeding them.

Triple_Factorial · Dec 5, 2007

Is it just me, or does the 1st quote (the one that became "no clones") now sound like an ancestor of "slightly different flavor"?

ThoraxeRMG · Dec 5, 2007

DeuceBlade said:
I think Ness and Lucas (if ness is in brawl), should share a move set formula similar to Mario and luigi's where they aren't exactly clones, but they have similar moves due to a common relationship.. mario and luigi are brothers, and Ness & Lucas come from the same family of PK users

Exactly! A great point!

y3nia659 · Dec 5, 2007

that one about Sakurai not being excited much about popular characters

finalark · Dec 5, 2007

I think that people will bend words to fit what they want to hear if they are desperate enough.

Or big enough Fanboys/girls.

DeuceBlade · Dec 5, 2007

ThoraxeRMG said:
Exactly! A great point!

I bet a anti-ness person will be like "BUT noes luigiz is lyk more important than nezz"

To bad, I never compared Ness to Luigi, all I did was compare the formula/reason for sharing moves, and how it could essentially be incorporated with Lucas and Ness

vesperview · Dec 5, 2007

Does every thread have to become a "Will Lucas replace Ness" thread?

finalark · Dec 5, 2007

vesperview said:
Does every thread have to become a "Will Lucas replace Ness" thread?

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

End of debate.

Cosine · Dec 5, 2007

Ness is Gone, he said "Up until now", maybe it wasn't an exact translation of the Japanese but the guy in charge of that is sure to know whether or not Ness made it back in, he wouldn't have said that other wise, it a really pointless argument

adumbrodeus · Dec 6, 2007

finalark said:
Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

End of debate.

Except that's not what Sakurai actually said. That's the best succicent translation of what Sakurai actually said, unfortunately, in English it bears the connotation of ending, something that the Japanese phrase lacks.

So no, unfortunately this is just another in a long line of poor translations from Japanese, right up there with "spoony bard", however this is understandable because there is no "good" translation.

Cosine said:
Ness is Gone, he said "Up until now", maybe it wasn't an exact translation of the Japanese but the guy in charge of that is sure to know whether or not Ness made it back in, he wouldn't have said that other wise, it a really pointless argument

Not necessarily, how many corporations reveal company secrets to just anyone? Not many. This sort of thing is on a need to know basis until it's revealed, and translators are not generally on the need to know list, so it's actually doubtful he or she knew.

Anyway, what do you suggest that he put instead, "Ness has been in all the previous installations however I neither confirm nor deny his appearance"? I guess that's closer to what Sakurai's original phrasing meant, yet it certainly doesn't capture the meaning, and is very clunky, and they generally don't like translators doing stuff like that.

Koji Syntax · Dec 6, 2007

Hai gais.... sakoorai said that... uhhhh.... he likes girls!!!! I dont!

Zorya · Dec 6, 2007

Ppl right now are trying to bend the whole '3 third party characters' thing. There will only BE 3 of them, so learn to love it.:embarrass

Just how much have we twisted Sakurai's original words?

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