Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

The Hypnotist · Nov 27, 2007

BTW, this isn't my epic rant, what is posted in blue after the rant will be all mine though. I know there's been a lot of this, but I honestly think that all of my fellow smashers need to read this. Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important.

EVERYONE, PARTICULARLY CASUALS PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING. DON'T EVEN BOTHER RESPOND IF YOU DON'T READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.

So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.

Also. just some statements by myself that everyone should read...

The term newbs is not negative, it just simply means a novice player. Do some research on wavedashing and don't complain about it if you don't even know what it is. Don't expect items to be in tournaments in Brawl, it's very unlikley. Like most players I am willing to play anyone, and teach them to play with advanced techniques, they aren't secrets. Don't expect that just because wavedashing isn't in Brawl there will not be a gap between competitive and casual players. This should be the last thread about this argument.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's responses and again, please do not even attempt to respond if you don't read the thread, and mods I ask you with my heart, please don't close this thread.

NO POSTING ANOTHER WAVEDASHING ARGUEMENT!

Micahc · Nov 27, 2007

I<3 you and hope this is stickied.

EDIT: And if this is some monumental sticky, I want it to be known that this is the first post and that I posted behind Youko on some thread... after it was locked. I also <3 lag.

The Hypnotist · Nov 27, 2007

Surprised I'm not getting more feedback. (bump)

Youko · Nov 27, 2007

Micahc said:
[...] and that I posted behind Youko on some thread... after it was locked. I also <3 lag.

I remember that thread, your post just happened to get in just before it was locked...so don't think it was after it was locked.

user_name · Nov 27, 2007

Wow, long post. =)

I read the entire post, and although I'm not overly involved with the competitive scene, I do disagree with you on a few issues. (mostly issues of definition and clarification)

1.) Wave dashing IS a glitch. As much as people like to say it's not, it's an unintended exploit. Yes, it's induced by the physics engine utilized in Smash, but it's still a glitch. A physics glitch. No, I don't have any problem with people using it, especially not in tournies. If you want to wave dash while playing against me casually that's fine, I have full access to the same technique, and its not something that's going to make or break a game. (usually) If you want to wave dash in a tourny I could give a ****. Hell, if you want to use AR to play as master hand in a tournament that's great for you and any tournament which lets you do that.

2.) Final Destination DOES seem overplayed, surprisingly though, more in the casual and less serious competitive scenes. The reason for this, is probably because there really is no completely fair stage, and FD seems fair. (and is fair if the only character being used is Falco) Although Dream Land and Fountain of Dreams would be MUCH better if it weren't for the moving platforms and blowy-tree-thing. On the same token, Battlefield would be perfect if it were a bit bigger. (Brawl looks to fix this problem)

3.) Items help with balancing to some extent, the agility DK gains while carrying a barrel, the fact that low tier, larger characters like DK and Bowser can take a hit from a bomb-omb or exploding capsule also helps, but unfortunately the bad tends to outweigh the good. Fox/Falco's reflector gives extra protection against projectile items, exploding crates/barrels/capsules, bomb-oms, stars, heart containers, max tomatoes, etc... can create a bit of randomness large enough to decide a match. Honestly, I think if random exploding items, and items which could be considered cheap, such as the ones listed above were removed items would be acceptable for tourny play and we would have an item/no-item tourny split. (to some extent) Unfortunately, exploding capsules/barrels/crates can't be turned off.

4.) The Temple is ****ing awesomely fun to play casually, but yes, it has no place in tournies because of all the reason's you listed. It's just too random, and can take FOREVER.

The Hypnotist · Nov 27, 2007

FD really isn't overplayed and is banned... a lot. And an exploit is not a glitch.

Uchiharakiri · Nov 27, 2007

The Hypnotist said:
BTW, this isn't my epic rant, what is posted in blue after the rant will be all mine though. I know there's been a lot of this, but I honestly think that all of my fellow smashers need to read this. Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important.

EVERYONE, PARTICULARLY CASUALS PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING. DON'T EVEN BOTHER RESPOND IF YOU DON'T READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.

So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.

Also. just some statements by myself that everyone should read...

The term newbs is not negative, it just simply means a novice player. Do some research on wavedashing and don't complain about it if you don't even know what it is. Don't expect items to be in tournaments in Brawl, it's very unlikley. Like most players I am willing to play anyone, and teach them to play with advanced techniques, they aren't secrets. Don't expect that just because wavedashing isn't in Brawl there will not be a gap between competitive and casual players. This should be the last thread about this argument.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's responses and again, please do not even attempt to respond if you don't read the thread, and mods I ask you with my heart, please don't close this thread.

I expect this thread to be closed, it's just like every other before it. Now with that out of the way...my response!

Yes, sadly I read through all of that so I'll just respond to a few excerpts I found most thralling.

1. "Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?"

SSBM in tournaments is usually played without items. The game itself was originally intended by Our Lord God Sakurai Himself to be played with items, if not; originally they would not have been there. To that I can only say, nobody killed Sakurai, he's still the king, and he says the game was originally intended to be played with items, no matter what you possibly say about the game being better for tournaments without items, no discussion. The game however is still intended as well to be played without items with the emergence of the tourney scene, it still stands that the people who you perceive to be "whining" are only speaking a truth no matter how much they use it to cover whatever ineptitude you see from them.

2. "With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you."

You confirm in this quote of yours elitist douchebags exist with "With the exception of a few rare". Thusly because of this the notion of elitism in the Smash community is not false and is a very real thing, no matter how few or many people are such. I will also add my two cents and now label you an elitist because of your quote outlined in number 2. I will also add that just the same there are elitists in Smash, so as well are there those you call whiny and annoying noobs who particularly apparently don't want to try and "embetter" themselves. We are at a cross roads now, do you believe there to be more whiny annoying noobs than there are elitist douchebags, or do you think there are just about the same number of them, or are there less? Depending on your answer, you will either have had no reason to start this thread, for example, if there are as many annoying whiny noobs as there are elitists, why post at all, I could BEGIN to understand why you would post if there were more annoying whiny noobs; but I do not believe there are. "So why are there so many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash?", well, friend; there aren't that many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash. I'll give a humble guess and say there are about as many as there are elitist douchebags.

3. "Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. "

See kids here is an example of elitism, "no one wants to play competitively with items". My friend and I always play with items on Battlefield, and we are much better than your average run off the mill "noob". And I still win most my battles bar none, predominantly, I have been winning much more than he, items don't seem to be helping him -too- much. When you say such a thing with an absolute terminology such as "no one" you effectively try to say literally no one does, while I, a well skilled Smasher, do. I am humble and never would do such, and you are not, you are elitist.

4. "Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing."

It seems that the whiny annoying noobs have made you become angry and bitter towards not only them but casual yet skilled players such as me, as I have found quite a few offensive and frankly, annoying and elitist sounding comments from you. Sorry dude but that's just the way it is.

5. " Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game"

You basically just said "This person doesn't like me because I'm better than them.". I will now give you a situation in...lets say, school, where this would conceivably be said. Okay, now take into your mind a popular, and arguably snobby and pretentious cheerleader, looking at a gothic but deep down nice kid. She will say "That kid doesn't like me because I'm better than them." And the gothic kid who his nice and doesn't judge on appearances alone will hear this, and finally think; with the evidence at hand... "What a pretentious elitist *****.". Basically what I'm trying to say is, don't let other people's angers(the idiots) or ways(actual casual nice players) make you ever say such a thing, because once you do; you WILL become that thing.

Any matter, in closing...I love Hyrule Temple. Once in Final Battle I was fighting my friend as Pichu and he was Fox, I had picked up a bob-omb, faked as if to throw it at him and he like an idiot freaked, turned reflecter on. L-canceled my jump, threw the bob-omb into the air, dash grabbed him out of his reflector, did Pichu's back throw, and ended up throwing him down into the falling bob-omb. Epic, you can't get that kind of stuff in Tournaments. Also, mods, I ask you deep from my heart like the creator did and close this thread, it's the same as every other one before it ever.

"Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important."

I mean really...sticky?!...wow.

user_name · Nov 27, 2007

The Hypnotist said:
FD really isn't overplayed and is banned... a lot. And an exploit is not a glitch.

Like I said, in serious tournies it's not overplayed, but casually, and in tournies that lean more twords the casual side (local tournies, at least around here) tend to over play FD.

Yes, it's a glitch. Whatever you want to call it, it's a glitch. It's fine to use, but it's still a glitch.

element_of_fire · Nov 27, 2007

i like this thread

platnum · Nov 27, 2007

thread of the year!!!!!!

i dont play tournies because i live to far away from any.

but I AM good at smash.

user_name · Nov 27, 2007

unfortunately the edit button isnt working correctly, so I have to create a new post for this....:

dictionary.com said:
glitch (glĭch) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. A minor malfunction, mishap, or technical problem; a snag: a computer glitch; a navigational glitch; a glitch in the negotiations.

I think we can both agree WDing wasn't intended in the initial development of the game.

element_of_fire · Nov 27, 2007

its not a glitch... its a physics exploit... they are two completly different things... WHEN will you people finally understand??

platnum · Nov 27, 2007

element_of_fire said:
its not a glitch... its a physics exploit... they are two completly different things... WHEN will you people finally understand??

when tires does exits posted.

EDIT:it aint a glitch.
proof:if you beat adventure with fox on very hard in a small amount of time(forgot exact number) you can see him wave dash in the little video it shows at the end.

sfox8 · Nov 28, 2007

I don't care for the whole casual vs. competitive scene. My opinion: let people play however the ****ing want and hush about it. There will always be people better than you, no matter who you are (with the exception of sakurai himself probably). There will always be those who only like playing the game the basic way without delving into advanced stuff. They shouldn't be condemned for that, either. We can go into our advanced techs if we want but I have to admit, there are some very elitist-esque comments in your post. It's no wonder why some people get that idea of competitive players.

Uchihakiri has some very valid rebuttles.

And yes, wavedashing is a glitch. An exploit in the physics engine generally equates to a technical malfunction, mishap or problem. i.e. glitch.

Chaosblade77 · Nov 28, 2007

The first thing I want to say is I am a casual player and I agree with practically all of this. "Practically." I have no problems with how competitive players play, in fact, I often like playing on neutral stages without items just with my friends.

However, the one point that I disagreed with was the fact it was so focused on casual players. There are idiot casual players who complain about how tournaments and give all casual players a bad name, but it's biased to say that there are not competitive players who complain about the casuals in replies to threads like this, and in doing so talk about how playing with items, on certain stages, with certain characters is not the best way to play the game. It's a very small minority and you admitted to their existence in your post, so all of the blame can't be placed on casuals.

Other than that, it was a good read (although I think some of it was taken from a post you made on another thread, it looked familiar xD). Hopefully a few of the casuals who make the rest of us look like idiots will learn something from it.

Edit: And I don't think L-cancelling is necessarily a "glitch", but wavedashing is physics abuse. Doing it is not a problem, especially in tournaments, since it's a safe bet anyone else there can do it to. Regardless of what it is, there isn't a problem with using it, they don't automatically make someone win.

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

sfox8 said:
And yes, wavedashing is a glitch. An exploit in the physics engine generally equates to a technical malfunction, mishap or problem. i.e. glitch. Seriously folks. It's okay to use WDing but don't try to justify yourselves further by twisting things around. There's nothing wrong with WDing so why do you need to justify it as not being a glitch when it clearly is?

no... its not... there is NO part of wavedashing that goes against the programming of the game....

Uchiharakiri · Nov 28, 2007

sfox8 said:
And yes, wavedashing is a glitch. An exploit in the physics engine generally equates to a technical malfunction, mishap or problem. i.e. glitch.

Quoted for truth.

Aninymouse · Nov 28, 2007

I greatly appreciate Hypnotist's post. It's not a perfect post, but it's what needs to be said, I think, to some. Some like Uchiharakiri, who choose to quibble over semantics like babies.

Uchiharakiri · Nov 28, 2007

ANinyMouse said:
I greatly appreciate Hypnotist's post. It's not a perfect post, but it's what needs to be said, I think, to some. Some like Uchiharakiri, who choose to quibble over semantics like babies.

From my point of view it looks much like element of fire is the one quibbling over the semantics of a certain scene, despite it having been done so by countless numbers before him.

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
From my point of view it looks much like element of fire is the one quibbling over the semantics of a certain scene, despite it having been done so by countless numbers before him.

no, i'm not 'quibbling'... there is a HUGE difference between what a glitch is, and what a physics exploit is... i'm sliply trying to enlighten people....

Aninymouse · Nov 28, 2007

Element of Fire certainly is posting unintelligently, isn't he?

It doesn't even matter what wavedashing in Melee IS in THIS forum, right? Take that BS over to the Melee forum.

In the meantime, I think every reply to the OP should be nixed and this thread locked. Why? Not because it's a bad topic, but because you guys can't reply to such a thread like ADULTS.

TheBuzzSaw · Nov 28, 2007

For the last time, [size=+4]wavedashing is not a glitch[/size].

Until someone can provide contrary evidence, the wavedash is at worst a game exploit. Of course the creators probably did not intend for this to happen, but that does not make it cheating. A glitch implies that the game falls outside its normal bounds of proper function. No such thing occurs with wavedashing.

If items are meant to be part of the game, why do they have an off switch? Obviously, Sakurai wanted the game to be played however we want.

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

so correcting false information is posting unintelligently????? yeah ok... this is why I shouldn't waste my time in the brawl boards.... oh well, back to the tournament discussion to get away from all this silliness and refresh my mind

EDIT: thank you buzz... i forgot all about that... once again, you are the man

The Hypnotist · Nov 28, 2007

user_name said:
Wow, long post. =)
1. "Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?"

SSBM in tournaments is usually played without items. The game itself was originally intended by Our Lord God Sakurai Himself to be played with items, if not; originally they would not have been there. To that I can only say, nobody killed Sakurai, he's still the king, and he says the game was originally intended to be played with items, no matter what you possibly say about the game being better for tournaments without items, no discussion. The game however is still intended as well to be played without items with the emergence of the tourney scene, it still stands that the people who you perceive to be "whining" are only speaking a truth no matter how much they use it to cover whatever ineptitude you see from them.

If Sakurai wanted us to play without items he wouldn't have made it an option to turn it off. Your logic is like saying Sakurai wanted us to play 2 min timed matches with all items on medium because those are the default rules.

2. "With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you."

You confirm in this quote of yours elitist douchebags exist with "With the exception of a few rare". Thusly because of this the notion of elitism in the Smash community is not false and is a very real thing, no matter how few or many people are such. I will also add my two cents and now label you an elitist because of your quote outlined in number 2. I will also add that just the same there are elitists in Smash, so as well are there those you call whiny and annoying noobs who particularly apparently don't want to try and "embetter" themselves. We are at a cross roads now, do you believe there to be more whiny annoying noobs than there are elitist douchebags, or do you think there are just about the same number of them, or are there less? Depending on your answer, you will either have had no reason to start this thread, for example, if there are as many annoying whiny noobs as there are elitists, why post at all, I could BEGIN to understand why you would post if there were more annoying whiny noobs; but I do not believe there are. "So why are there so many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash?", well, friend; there aren't that many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash. I'll give a humble guess and say there are about as many as there are elitist douchebags.

There are clearly more misinformed whinny casual players then elistist players. Read the forums.

3. "Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. "

See kids here is an example of elitism, "no one wants to play competitively with items". My friend and I always play with items on Battlefield, and we are much better than your average run off the mill "noob". And I still win most my battles bar none, predominantly, I have been winning much more than he, items don't seem to be helping him -too- much. When you say such a thing with an absolute terminology such as "no one" you effectively try to say literally no one does, while I, a well skilled Smasher, do. I am humble and never would do such, and you are not, you are elitist.

It's not elitist, it's true. And really think about what competitively means, the serously good players don't want matches riddled with luck. And get over it, no one was a freaking hyperbole. No one famous will come.

4. "Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing."

It seems that the whiny annoying noobs have made you become angry and bitter towards not only them but casual yet skilled players such as me, as I have found quite a few offensive and frankly, annoying and elitist sounding comments from you. Sorry dude but that's just the way it is.

No, it's just stupid that people are being poor sports.

5. " Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game"

You basically just said "This person doesn't like me because I'm better than them.". I will now give you a situation in...lets say, school, where this would conceivably be said. Okay, now take into your mind a popular, and arguably snobby and pretentious cheerleader, looking at a gothic but deep down nice kid. She will say "That kid doesn't like me because I'm better than them." And the gothic kid who his nice and doesn't judge on appearances alone will hear this, and finally think; with the evidence at hand... "What a pretentious elitist *****.". Basically what I'm trying to say is, don't let other people's angers(the idiots) or ways(actual casual nice players) make you ever say such a thing, because once you do; you WILL become that thing.

Analogy doesn't work at all. The casuals get butthurt because they lose. It'd be like me geting bad at the straight A student because he got into Yale and I didn't, then I would say "He studied, that's not fair".

Any matter, in closing...I love Hyrule Temple. Once in Final Battle I was fighting my friend as Pichu and he was Fox, I had picked up a bob-omb, faked as if to throw it at him and he like an idiot freaked, turned reflecter on. L-canceled my jump, threw the bob-omb into the air, dash grabbed him out of his reflector, did Pichu's back throw, and ended up throwing him down into the falling bob-omb. Epic, you can't get that kind of stuff in Tournaments. Also, mods, I ask you deep from my heart like the creator did and close this thread, it's the same as every other one before it ever.

LOL at you can't get that kind of stuff in tourneys. Watch some competitive matches, and you only won the match because of an item.

"Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important."

I mean really...sticky?!...wow.

Responses in bold.

Aninymouse · Nov 28, 2007

I never said you were wrong, Element. You know, since you like arguing over the exact meaning and connotation of words.

Chaosblade77 · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
1. "Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?"

SSBM in tournaments is usually played without items. The game itself was originally intended by Our Lord God Sakurai Himself to be played with items, if not; originally they would not have been there. To that I can only say, nobody killed Sakurai, he's still the king, and he says the game was originally intended to be played with items, no matter what you possibly say about the game being better for tournaments without items, no discussion. The game however is still intended as well to be played without items with the emergence of the tourney scene, it still stands that the people who you perceive to be "whining" are only speaking a truth no matter how much they use it to cover whatever ineptitude you see from them.

The only problem I have their is the existence of the Item Switch negates the entire argument. While items add more depth to the game, it also makes sense why they wouldn't be in a game that is being played with money on the line. That same bob-omb could have appeared a few seconds later and you may have ended up killing yourself on it rather than your opponent, it's happened to me more than a few times.

Regardless, I wasn't going to point him out as elitist because of his comments because there are casuals who complain and rant like he said, and in most cases it's petty complaints from people who don't ever plan to set foot on the competitive scene. Why does it make a difference to them what the competitive players, elitist or not, are doing?

And honestly, in the same way this thread was made, a similar one could be made against the minority of competitive elitists, but there are two or three of these on the first page as it is, and all of them turn into the same debates.

platnum · Nov 28, 2007

platnum said:
when tires does exits posted.

EDIT:it aint a glitch.
proof:if you beat adventure with fox on very hard in a small amount of time(forgot exact number) you can see him wave dash in the little video it shows at the end.

@n00bs.read the above post.

@deniers WTF would they put it in an in game vid if it were a glitch.

Uchiharakiri · Nov 28, 2007

Buzz said:
For the last time, [size=+4]wavedashing is not a glitch[/size].

Until someone can provide contrary evidence, the wavedash is at worst a game exploit. Of course the creators probably did not intend for this to happen, but that does not make it cheating. A glitch implies that the game falls outside its normal bounds of proper function. No such thing occurs with wavedashing.

This is correct, if you dodge straight downwards, your movement will cease. If you do this, but downwards and a little to either side, you will not stop, this is a glitch, because the physic of being thrown sideways from a smash or hit is being exploited via a short hop. It is widely known fact it is a glitch

ANinyMouse said:
Element of Fire certainly is posting unintelligently, isn't he?

It doesn't even matter what wavedashing in Melee IS in THIS forum, right? Take that BS over to the Melee forum.

In the meantime, I think every reply to the OP should be nixed and this thread locked. Why? Not because it's a bad topic, but because you guys can't reply to such a thread like ADULTS.

Yes, it does matter what wavedashing is. We -are- in the melee forum. And we are replying like adults, not doing so would look like this.

"Stfu you n00b every1 knows wavedashing is leet glitch, Ken will tell you!"

We are not doing that.

Yes, the topic is bad, much like food left to rot, as the topic of casual vs. competitive has been.

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
This is correct, if you dodge straight downwards, your movement will cease. If you do this, but downwards and a little to either side, you will not stop, this is a glitch, because the physic of being thrown sideways from a smash or hit is being exploited via a short hop. It is widely known fact it is a glitch

sounds like you didn't read the link....

TheBuzzSaw · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
This is correct, if you dodge straight downwards, your movement will cease. If you do this, but downwards and a little to either side, you will not stop, this is a glitch, because the physic of being thrown sideways from a smash or hit is being exploited via a short hop. It is widely known fact it is a glitch

You must not have read it very closely. Sliding is an intended part of the physics engine. It is a natural result of air dodging into the surface. If it were not, why would every character have unique levels of friction? You are in complete denial. Accept the facts. You have done nothing to prove that wavedashing is a glitch. It is not a "widely known fact". It is widely spread complaint about competitive players.

Aryman · Nov 28, 2007

I agree with everything you said, Hypnotist. I'd like to know how you feel about the Smash Balls in tournaments though.

I_R_Hungry · Nov 28, 2007

I think ANinyMouse's point is that, regardless of who is right or wrong, everyone arguing about the whole "wavedash is/isn't a glitch" thing is arguing about something that doesn't matter because as far as anyone is concerned, wavedashing has nothing, or at best little to do with Brawl.

TheBuzzSaw · Nov 28, 2007

The correct answer is that wavedashing is an exploit. Go ahead. Call it an exploit. No one denies that wavedashing was not part of the original design. But you know what? We do not care. I highly doubt the original creator of ping pong intended for players to start applying spin to the ball with rubber-covered paddles. Games evolve beyond the creator's vision.

Aninymouse · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
Yes, it does matter what wavedashing is. We -are- in the melee forum. And we are replying like adults, not doing so would look like this.

This is the BRAWL forum. Perhaps you are confused. Debating the intricacies of a Melee-exclusive technique on the Brawl forums as soon as the topic was created sounds like BAD POSTING to me.

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

ANinyMouse said:
This is the BRAWL forum. Perhaps you are confused. Debating the intricacies of a Melee-exclusive technique on the Brawl forums as soon as the topic was created sounds like BAD POSTING to me.

but the WHOLE POINT of the casual vs competitive thing comes from the CURRENT game... which is melee, which has wavedashing.... so i think its pretty relevent

Uchiharakiri · Nov 28, 2007

Buzz said:
You must not have read it very closely. Sliding is an intended part of the physics engine. It is a natural result of air dodging into the surface. If it were not, why would every character have unique levels of friction? You are in complete denial. Accept the facts. You have done nothing to prove that wavedashing is a glitch. It is not a "widely known fact". It is widely spread complaint about competitive players.

I can wave dash.

Your link was basically me typing what I did on the boards, but on your own blog.

"It is not a glitch that guarantees victory"
Just because it does not guarantee victory does not make it not a glitch. By your own logic you could say that the Ice Climber's glitch is just like a wavedash, because the ice climber's attacks, grabs and ice all of course adhere to the game's physics engine just like short hopping and wavedashing, an exploit.

Thusly, you draw distinction between what a glitch or exploit is by how advantageous it is. This is errenous, differing levels of advantage does not change something from being a glitch. Btw we are deviating from the thread topic, another sign of a bad topic.

Uchiharakiri · Nov 28, 2007

ANinyMouse said:
This is the BRAWL forum. Perhaps you are confused. Debating the intricacies of a Melee-exclusive technique on the Brawl forums as soon as the topic was created sounds like BAD POSTING to me.

I will now make up for my lack of sleep an inattentiveness to some details by rewording myself to say that I was having a friendly forum about Melee and wave dashing with Buzz and element. My bad though, I'll admit that, I did a lil woopsie.

Aninymouse · Nov 28, 2007

element_of_fire said:
but the WHOLE POINT of the casual vs competitive thing comes from the CURRENT game... which is melee, which has wavedashing.... so i think its pretty relevent

And reasoning like this is precisely why the discussion fails.

Weed · Nov 28, 2007

Alot of good points, I don't prefer any style of play over another, it's all fun.
Smash is still serious business, however

element_of_fire · Nov 28, 2007

Uchiharakiri said:
I can wave dash.

Your link was basically me typing what I did on the boards, but on your own blog.

"It is not a glitch that guarantees victory"
Just because it does not guarantee victory does not make it not a glitch. By your own logic you could say that the Ice Climber's glitch is just like a wavedash, because the ice climber's attacks, grabs and ice all of course adhere to the game's physics engine just like short hopping and wavedashing, an exploit.

Thusly, you draw distinction between what a glitch or exploit is by how advantageous it is. This is errenous, differing levels of advantage does not change something from being a glitch. Btw we are deviating from the thread topic, another sign of a bad topic.

NO... the difference between what a glitch and what an exploit is is NOT defined by the advantages ... omg... READ THE LINK!!!

Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

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