Weekly Match-up discussion 3: Marth

A basic overview of the advantages:
Marth

Faster
Less Laggy
Less start-up on most moves
Disjointed hitboxes
Better priority
Dancing blade...
Dolphin Slash...
Safe poking moves...


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos



A few questions that should be explored in this match-up (others may be added in the course of the discussion):

... How the heck do you fight somebody like this?


And go!

Note: This is a horrible match-up, we all know it. techniques to make it less so would be appreciated, but Marth is definitely a hard-counter for Ganondorf.

One thing that Ganon has going for him is he can spam his Dair and get kills with it, but a good Marth can easily beat Ganon, I say 80-20.

i choose platform heavy stages. then try to spam uairs till he's off stage, then edgeguard... tough match though

It's like trying to hit a wasp with a sledgehammer, it doesn't work.

The only thing that's even possible to exploit is Marth's semi-predictable recovery. Once he start's charging that shield-breaker, mentally figure out where he will go and either spike him or hit him when he lands.

Really when I think about it though, Ganon has no chance. Marth could probably beat 3 Ganon's without losing a stock.

Ilucamy said:

The only thing that's even possible to exploit is Marth's semi-predictable recovery. Once he start's charging that shield-breaker, mentally figure out where he will go and either spike him or hit him when he lands.

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No Marth is going to rely on Shieldbreaker to make it back on stage. Its too predictble and can easily get you stuck under the stage. If you want to gimp Marth, you have to get jump down and at an angle. Dolphin Slash is almost entirely vertical, so getting Marth out without his second jump is going to get you that stock. Don't be too reckless when edgeguarding Marth. He has fair and nair to keep you away. Dolphin Slash is invincible on frames 1-4 and hits on frame 5, so you're looking at getting stage spiked if you are careless. Also, keep in mind that Marth can stall in the air with his side b. The first hit of dancing blades stops Marth's movement, just enough to wait for your invincibility frames on the ledge to wear off.

This is an 8:2 at best for Ganon in Marth's favor. The only real weakness I can think that Marth has that you can really exploit is his recovery. Everything else is just...amazing.

So it's really less about exploiting weaknesses, and just using any move that has a remote chance of connecting and hurting Marth. It's a downright hard match up. I say after this match we do a somewhat easier one, then another hard one...then easy...etc.

adumbrodeus said:

A basic overview of the advantages:
Marth

Faster
Less Laggy
Less start-up on most moves
Disjointed hitboxes
Better priority
Dancing blade...
Dolphin Slash...
Safe poking moves...


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos

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Definitely faster and less laggy, start-up on most moves is debatable. I mean, he DOES have quicker start-up but most of Ganon's standards and aerials come out roughly the same time as Ganon's. Just the few exceptions like F-Smash, but D-Smash and U-Smash come out just a bit later, but are still more noticeable.

Lol but I've noticed this before and I tested it a little Ganon's stanards (F-Tilt I'm sure, Jab I'm sure, D-Tilt's usability I'm not sure on, it clanks with D-Smash) clank with all of Marth's ground A's. So both Jab and F-tilt cancel out F-Smash, F-tilt...etc. So much for a sword when I can stop it with my palm .

Know you're spacing, F-Air actually has more range than a lot of Marth's moves. If you know Marth's F-Air spacing and tactics you can do some punishing with your F-Air. Hell, I've hit F-Air on counter and it didn't hit me.

Gerudo gives you D-Tilt/F-tilt/dash attack IF Marth doesn't DI up or away. So pretty much if he DI's in, doesnt DI, or attacks he gets hit. Lol and I hate saying that when there might be Marth mains visiting this thread. Even with the DI it opens up mind games. Usually when they DI up or away they cant help but to follow it up with stand up or roll away. I think you can DI away>roll in/get-up etc, but it's slightly difficult. So if they know how to avoid guaranteed follow ups, Gerudo>predict. 50/50 shot.

Gerudo punishing is most likely going to be very helpful but I'm not sure of vulnerability after double F-Airs, maybe a non-biased Marth main can help me out here? I'm sure it's pretty safe but maybe Ganon can get in Wizard's Foot or Gerudo after retreating F-Airs.

And exploit edguarding of course.

...I'm not sure about the size of UpBs hitbox but it does ignore shields...and many Marths rely on his great options out of his shields. Maybe...just maybe you can make use of it...a little?

I think you have to be pretty close for it to work.

If Marth is spacing well, Ganon will probably not have that opportunity.

70:30.

Marths is just too quick, but his reocvery isn't great. What Ganondorf can try to do is use Flame Choke as much as he canm and try spiking while he is recovering.

Don't let him dancing blade you (bairs and thunderstorming can ward this off, I think).
Unless I'm missing something, I think you'd want to avoid shielding altogether, if you can.

The fact that Marth's attacks are so fast can be good for you - since the hitboxes don't stay out long, spot dodges reap game. Marth doesn't have a normal nair for that. Just don't be one of those people who spot dodge after every input. GAWD I hate watching their opponents *not* punish.

Wait for the mistake, it's all you can do. Perhaps bait Fsmashes, in particular, then get dash attack, or ftilt if you can. And, as said elsewhere, "edgeguard like your life depended on it."


I have some questions, I'm not sure why these come to mind, but:

Has anyone felt that the use of Down B or fair change in this match? I'd like to save fair for deadly KO power. And something is suggesting to me that one should pay attention to Down B against Marth. I'm not sure what this is.

EDIT: Flame choking is awesome! I don't know if it's my opponents but right now I'm at about 70% success with tech chasing. It's hard to get the timing for wake-up attacks, though.

I dunno, I honestly don't think Marth wins by 8/2. I think more like 7/3 or 65/35.

I'm pretty sure Ganon's D-tilt >>> Dancing Blade and Marth's D-tilt. Otherwise I dunno what else to say that hasn't been said.

Oh wait, Marth does have a bit of a CG on you and F-air ***** your recovery, but Marth otherwise has a lot of trouble actually scoring a KO unless he lands a tippered F-smash.

Marth can easily gimp ganon, he won't have a hard time scoring kills.


I feel bad for ganon.

*feels bad for his beloved secondary*

Ok, time to correct some misconceptions.

Swoops said:

Definitely faster and less laggy, start-up on most moves is debatable. I mean, he DOES have quicker start-up but most of Ganon's standards and aerials come out roughly the same time as Ganon's. Just the few exceptions like F-Smash, but D-Smash and U-Smash come out just a bit later, but are still more noticeable.

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Again, not all moves, just the majority.

Frame data would be nice, but you can be positive that in addition to what you mentioned, Dolphin slash has an effective frame 1 activation (4 invincibility frames, and then a frame 5 attack), Dancing Blade has a frame 4 hitbox.

As for less lag afterwards, Marth has several good examples, especially the tilts (dtilt has IASA frames soon enough to make it a frame trap).

Know you're spacing, F-Air actually has more range than a lot of Marth's moves. If you know Marth's F-Air spacing and tactics you can do some punishing with your F-Air. Hell, I've hit F-Air on counter and it didn't hit me.

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It's totally unsafe, especially in this match-up unless you full hop it, which will make it useless for attacking a grounded opponent.

Gerudo punishing is most likely going to be very helpful but I'm not sure of vulnerability after double F-Airs, maybe a non-biased Marth main can help me out here? I'm sure it's pretty safe but maybe Ganon can get in Wizard's Foot or Gerudo after retreating F-Airs.

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I believe so with Wizards foot, I'll do a bit of testing on this.

PK-ow! said:

The fact that Marth's attacks are so fast can be good for you - since the hitboxes don't stay out long, spot dodges reap game. Marth doesn't have a normal nair for that. Just don't be one of those people who spot dodge after every input. GAWD I hate watching their opponents *not* punish.

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Actually, that's a bad idea. Dancing blade is the best move in the game for punishing spot dodging and rolling.

If you spotdodge a lot, you're getting punished by it.

Heck, for some attacks, Marth can even react to you spotdodging a move with dancing blade (the dtilt is a great example of this).

A2ZOMG said:

I'm pretty sure Ganon's D-tilt >>> Dancing Blade and Marth's D-tilt. Otherwise I dunno what else to say that hasn't been said.

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If you mean in priority... possibly, I'm not positive however I doubt it. I'll check.

However, overall, both moves beat out Ganon's dtilt by an insane margin.

Dancing blade can punish just about anything with it's insanely fast activation, and can shield stab. It also regenerates Marth's moves insanely well.

Dtilt is safe, and has IASA frames quick enough to make it not only safe, but also a frametrap. You shield it and you get grabbed, you spotdodge and eat dancing Blade, you roll towards marth and you eat dancing Blade.

Ganon's dtilt is useful, but it's not safe in this match-up, making it really not anywhere near as useful as the mentioned moves for marth.

Oh wait, Marth does have a bit of a CG on you and F-air ***** your recovery, but Marth otherwise has a lot of trouble actually scoring a KO unless he lands a tippered F-smash.

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Recovery ****** is more then enough, kills should come pretty easily to Marth.

Gleam said:

It's a downright hard match up. I say after this match we do a somewhat easier one, then another hard one...then easy...etc.

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Could you post this in the central match-up thread, along with some possibilities?

I see no reason not to do it this way, and it will generate some discussion.



Also, since nobody brought up any issues, my Captain Falcon summery seems to be the official impression for the moment so you can put it back up in your thread.

adumbrodeus said:

If you mean in priority... possibly, I'm not positive however I doubt it. I'll check.

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What I mean is I'm pretty sure that Ganondorf's D-tilt will beat out Marth's DB or D-tilt if you have space to use it, and use it while he's using X attack. I'm pretty sure of this because Ganondorf's D-tilt beat's G&W's D-tilt like 100% of the time DESPITE G&W's dtilt clearly having a disjointed lingering hitbox. I've hit G&W through his D-tilt with Ganondorf's D-tilt even though I'm pretty sure the hitbox was still out. Other disjointed things I've seen Ganondorf's D-tilt beat out include Pit's rapid jabs.

Dancing blade can punish just about anything with it's insanely fast activation, and can shield stab. It also regenerates Marth's moves insanely well.

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True enough. Yeah, I guess it could be kinda hard to get Marth in the position where you have space to D-tilt his DB. =/

adumbrodeus said:

Again, not all moves, just the majority.

Frame data would be nice, but you can be positive that in addition to what you mentioned, Dolphin slash has an effective frame 1 activation (4 invincibility frames, and then a frame 5 attack), Dancing Blade has a frame 4 hitbox.

As for less lag afterwards, Marth has several good examples, especially the tilts (dtilt has IASA frames soon enough to make it a frame trap).



It's totally unsafe, especially in this match-up unless you full hop it, which will make it useless for attacking a grounded opponent.

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Oh I know that Marth definitely has less lag on all of his attacks pretty much. And I know that most of his start up is less. I was just saying that his aerials in comparison are close, and his standards can go toe to toe. Except for DB of course, but I didn't know it was that god **** fast.

Of course F-Air is unsafe, but that's why you don't throw it out all the time willy-nilly (fun phrase.) What's good about F-Air is that it has great range (more than marth's F-Air) decent shield stun for Brawl, and pretty good shield pushback. You can DJ>timed F-Air to over ride marth F-Air approaches sometimes, and on shield it's not completely safe but it's fairly safe. Oh and it only has the good properties on sweetspot. Which is why you learn to space it. I like f-air.

Just adding, Fair only autocancels when you perform a rising F-air by double jumping from a fullhop, OR if you do a rising ledgejumped F-air (which actually can end before you hit the ground, allowing you to N-air)

Oh, some quick frame data by the way. From what I can tell, F-Smash has 36 frames of lag. Though I haven't tested the shield stun at all. Time in between F-Air and airdodge is 24 frames.

So factor in the slight start up of f-air or DB and it seems with right timing you can punish F-Airs with wizard's foot or DA depending on distance and your speed. Don't think shield stun on F-Air should play too much of a factor. Landing lag frames on F-Air, 12 frames.

And this is all marth frame stuff

If you're fighting a really good Marth, Marth will only front smash Ganon if you're bound to get hit by it (like you just whiffed a Dair, and didn't auto-cancel, Fthrow to Fsmash combo, etc)

Marth can effectively Fair zone Ganon, and there is NOTHING Ganon can do about it.

Marth has ALL disjointed hitboxes, Ganon has Utilt? (lol)

Marth has about 3 times Ganon's grab range.

Ganon stands absolutely no chance against Marth. This match-up is 90-10. 9 times out of 10, I will beat Ganon with Marth, as will all high level Marth players.

Really one of the largest advantages Ganon has is that most marth mains most likely won't have the previous fighting experience that Ganon has.

That doesn't help ganon get out of Marth's combos, but it sure as hell helps ganon keep marth IN combos. Double AC Dair ---> up smash is not an impossibility.

Other than that, yeah....

Tell me where the bad sexually questionable man touched you

*points to Ganon's face, which has an imprint of Fair's hitbox*

Pierce7d said:

Marth can effectively Fair zone Ganon, and there is NOTHING Ganon can do about it.

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Wizard's Foot or Dash attack while he is landing can punish if timed right.

Marth has ALL disjointed hitboxes, Ganon has Utilt? (lol)

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D-tilt is disjointed and beats a lot of disjointed attacks because Ganon's hurtbox seems to extend the same time the hitbox starts, not to mention the hitbox goes past the foot.

Marth has about 3 times Ganon's grab range.

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His standing grab and pivot grab are better, but Ganon actually has a decent Dash grab, while Marth has a laughable Dash grab.

Ganon stands absolutely no chance against Marth. This match-up is 90-10. 9 times out of 10, I will beat Ganon with Marth, as will all high level Marth players.

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I disagree that he loses that severely. Ganondorf has a lot of attacks that can effectively compete with Marth's range. Marth might be hard to hit, but he's also very lightweight, and he's not particularly hard to edgeguard either, especially if he gets hit by Ganon's F-tilt.

IMO Ganon has worse matchups than Marth really.

Pierce7d said:

If you're fighting a really good Marth, Marth will only front smash Ganon if you're bound to get hit by it (like you just whiffed a Dair, and didn't auto-cancel, Fthrow to Fsmash combo, etc)

Marth can effectively Fair zone Ganon, and there is NOTHING Ganon can do about it.

Marth has ALL disjointed hitboxes, Ganon has Utilt? (lol)

Marth has about 3 times Ganon's grab range.

Ganon stands absolutely no chance against Marth. This match-up is 90-10. 9 times out of 10, I will beat Ganon with Marth, as will all high level Marth players.

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And a good Ganon won't miss an auto-cancel, what's your point? Regardless of whether you're playing a good Marth or not, Ganon can punish F-Smash hard if the Marth misses, it's just there.

There is a lot of stuff Ganon can do about it seems. There's around a 24-26 frame space between one fair and another. If the Marth is stupid enough to be too close after the first shielded f-air, Ganon can get off jab/f-tilt/DA. If it's at least a semi-good marth player, than he should be retreating and zoning, in which case Ganon could still get off Wizard's Foot, DA, and maybe Gerudo. Shield stun of f-air is pretty non existent too.

True, but as I said before, Ganon's standards actually clank with Marth's smashes and tilts. As for aerials I'm not sure but god would it be sexy if I could stop his aerials too. Not sure how big of part it would play in competitive, but it's **** good to know that I can go toe to toe with a straight up disjointed hitbox.

lol yea, true. Not sure about mathematics, but Ganon's grab range sucks.

Not saying that this isn't a pretty tough match-up, but I still think people don't give enough credit to Ganon in match ups, and that he has a lot going for him than people think.

EDIT: Lol a2zomg kinda beat me to it but there's a tiny bit of extra stuff in mine.
oh...hoo-ha 100th post

This is most likely going to be agreed upon as an 80-20 match that is obviously in Marth's favor. Marth has almost everything Ganondorf doesn't: speed, priority, less lag, disjointed hitboxes, and a spot on High Tier which pretty much means this won't even be considered.

Swoops said:

And a good Ganon won't miss an auto-cancel, what's your point? Regardless of whether you're playing a good Marth or not, Ganon can punish F-Smash hard if the Marth misses, it's just there.

There is a lot of stuff Ganon can do about it seems. There's around a 24-26 frame space between one fair and another. If the Marth is stupid enough to be too close after the first shielded f-air, Ganon can get off jab/f-tilt/DA. If it's at least a semi-good marth player, than he should be retreating and zoning, in which case Ganon could still get off Wizard's Foot, DA, and maybe Gerudo. Shield stun of f-air is pretty non existent too.

True, but as I said before, Ganon's standards actually clank with Marth's smashes and tilts. As for aerials I'm not sure but god would it be sexy if I could stop his aerials too. Not sure how big of part it would play in competitive, but it's **** good to know that I can go toe to toe with a straight up disjointed hitbox.

lol yea, true. Not sure about mathematics, but Ganon's grab range sucks.

Not saying that this isn't a pretty tough match-up, but I still think people don't give enough credit to Ganon in match ups, and that he has a lot going for him than people think.

EDIT: Lol a2zomg kinda beat me to it but there's a tiny bit of extra stuff in mine.
oh...hoo-ha 100th post

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Swoops HAS to be the most intelligent and confident Ganon player ever(besides the obvious). he knows so much and doesn't underestimate Ganon. He always tells the truth if Ganon has the disadvantage, but remembers to include smaller details that many often overlook due to Ganondorf being slow, fat, Low Tier, etc. Kudos to Swoops.

Swoops said:

And a good Ganon won't miss an auto-cancel, what's your point? Regardless of whether you're playing a good Marth or not, Ganon can punish F-Smash hard if the Marth misses, it's just there.

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His point was that F-smash wasn't going to be used much because he's not expecting Ganon players to make a mistake like that, and therefore doesn't expect to be using f-smash.

There is a lot of stuff Ganon can do about it seems. There's around a 24-26 frame space between one fair and another. If the Marth is stupid enough to be too close after the first shielded f-air, Ganon can get off jab/f-tilt/DA.

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I wouldn't assume that Marth is gonna make a mistake.

Also, remember, it's not just fairs that he can use. Dtilt especially says "hi".

mariofanpm12 said:

He always tells the truth if Ganon has the disadvantage, but remembers to include smaller details that many often overlook due to Ganondorf being slow, fat, Low Tier, etc. Kudos to Swoops.

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Praise is my sustenance, keep it coming . I still think Ganon has a lot of uphill match ups...I mean a lot. But a lot of people still think of him as a throw away character who's slow and incredibly laggy. His speed can be increased though, through certain movement, and his lag can be drastically minimized.

adumbrodeus said:

His point was that F-smash wasn't going to be used much because he's not expecting Ganon players to make a mistake like that, and therefore doesn't expect to be using f-smash.

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I know, I was just saying that a good Ganon wouldn't be missing auto cancels, and that Marth's not special in the fact that he can punish the hell out of it...everyone can.

I wouldn't assume that Marth is gonna make a mistake.

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Neither would I, but I'm just saying that the option is there. Even without mistake, Ganon can still get in after a shielded retreating f-air with Wizard's foot, DA, and maybe Gerudo.

Also, remember, it's not just fairs that he can use. Dtilt especially says "hi".

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Hmm, I forgot cool down on d-tilt, I know it's pretty good. But d-tilt also says "stomp"

I think Marth's RCO lag is more than Ganon's...mua haha.
Ganon's biggest problem with this match up is dancing blade by far. It's just nasty, and a good Marth should be abusing this especially against Ganon. I think your best bet with Ganon is to probably stay slightly out of range most of the time...but that puts you in tipper range...nasty. Marth is definitely a tough match up. It might be a game of changing your range up and avoid getting interrupted by dancing blade. Know when you can get in safe and build off it.

This matchup is pretty heavily in Marth's favour probably 70:30, but Ganny DOES have options. For one thing is that Marth's air game is pretty easy to deal with, his recovery is gimpable with how freakin predictable it is.

However Ganny's normally reliable DTilt is fairly weak in this matchup unless at high percentages. I've noticed it actually gives Marth a free hit with DI due to the weird way he flies up. The exact same thing goes for his v+throw, Ganny's only real option is to shield, dodge or rushing Uair since Marth almost instantly comes flying back at you with a Fair.

But what I have noticed is SH'd >+B will wrack up damage on Marth like crazy. Marth actually doesn't have many moves which can seemingly deal with this attack, Nair, Dancing blade and Fair are his best options and they still have trouble connecting. (Not sure if its just me being lucky but I really do seem to get through his Dancing Blade better than with any other move.)

Instead his only real option is rolling or sidestepping away and if you do it right as most know the >+b will have little lag letting Ganny do some serious chasing. This followed up with a SH'd Dair can actually be a good finisher with how light Marth is.

The Uair Tipman is actually pretty good too, it connects at the same angle as an angled Fair the only move Marth seemingly cannot defend that well against. In fact if you do this correctly and use the auto-cancel to flow directly into a Sparta Kick (FTilt) its the most effective option Ganny has for spacing. I find for some reason the FTilt connects with Marth much better than his normally reliable DTilt. The old jab->FTilt works well but I find its not really suggested for poking since if the jab gets shielded Marth will probably slice you up.

I find my game plan is to tend to try force Marth into an air game. If you do than Ganny has great options in his Nair for spacing and poking and his Fair and Uair are some of the best connecting moves he has against Marth. The only problem I find is forcing him into an air game to begin with since the only real option I have is to chase him around with SH'd >+B to wrack up damage. Afterwhich try to launch Marth with either the shoulder barge or the DTilt.

If the opponent doesn't make a mistake, then you lose. No matter who you're using. By definition. (Unless they are using utter garbage. Absolute garbage. As in, Melee Mewtwo may not even count as garbage for this definition.)

You always assume they will make a mistake. It's as true here as it is in chess. Your goal is to be there and be alert when it happens.

Swoops said:

Neither would I, but I'm just saying that the option is there. Even without mistake, Ganon can still get in after a shielded retreating f-air with Wizard's foot, DA, and maybe Gerudo.

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A shielded fair? Definitely needs to be tested, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.

Hmm, I forgot cool down on d-tilt, I know it's pretty good. But d-tilt also says "stomp"

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You need to predict it well beforehand in order to do that, the IASA frames make it a frametrap for defensive maneuvers (such as spotdodging, shielding, etc), reacting to it just doesn't work.

As long as the Marth doesn't spam it... which no good marth would ever do. It's a set-up for a brick-wall, you don't ever use it quickly enough in succession that you crawl with it.

PK-ow! said:

If the opponent doesn't make a mistake, then you lose. No matter who you're using. By definition. (Unless they are using utter garbage. Absolute garbage. As in, Melee Mewtwo may not even count as garbage for this definition.)

You always assume they will make a mistake. It's as true here as it is in chess. Your goal is to be there and be alert when it happens.

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No... the assumption is that neither person makes a mistake. In which case the character that is superior in the match-up will win.

So far as I can tell this matchup is pretty sad for ganny. I would definintly go 8-2, maybe 7-3 because ganon has some decent options.

The range, and power of f-smash can come in real handy when fight a light character like marth. The jab comes out very and has awesome range, and ftilt eats marths for breakfast. Flamechoke is also a really good option as it put marth in a difficult position not to mention counter doesn't work on flamechoke.

Thunderstorming is very limited in this matchup and I would say is the big reason that ganny has a hard time. This is basically one of his best moves and it isn't all that easy to do on marth. Not to mention you can't even spike with it very well since dolphin slash beats you every time.

Also to be noted is that marth has a predictable recovery like ganon and can easily be edgeguarded.

Devil7 said:

The range, and power of f-smash can come in real handy when fight a light character like marth.

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Not really possible, F-Smash comes out too slow and actually opens up Ganny to Marth's faster tipped F-Smash or that god forsaken dancing blade. Not to mention its not even possible to F-Smash Marth out of a D-Throw.

Anyway been playing around but I really think I'd like to lower my opinion to a 70:30 or 65:35.

I noticed the matchup doesn't seem that terrible as I first thought. Ganondorf's Fair really does absolutely **** Marth for all the moves Marth have that outprioritize or outspeed Ganny. The lag between some of his moves really makes him completely vulnerable to Ganny's F-air. (Dancing Blade not included since most players only ever use the first 2 hits) Especially on shielded hits or on a retreat.

Also Ganny's Tipman actually is more effective than I originally thought. Everytime Marth gets hit into the air he has almost no way of descending safely without air dodging like a madman to avoid a Uair. if you mix this up with a few reverse Uair's it can actually punish him quite well.

I notice as well Marth has a difficult time landing in any grabs because of Ganny's >+B. SH'd lagless >+B's can really put Marth under pressure, however this requires Ganny to play a more offensive game. Not really his strong point but what I'm saying is if you mix up Ganny's game with mostly offensive with a good dose of SH'd >+B's and use Fair or Uair for your retreats its actually possible to give the FE Lord a run for his money.

Shadow Nataku said:

Not really possible, F-Smash comes out too slow and actually opens up Ganny to Marth's faster tipped F-Smash or that god forsaken dancing blade. Not to mention its not even possible to F-Smash Marth out of a D-Throw.

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Yes your right, but you just have to find the right moves for the right timing and job. You can fsmash marth out of a flamechoke, and against marths recovery. Marth is so light the elbow is a very reliable move if used right. In most situations the jab is the best, or ftilt.

Jab doesn't really do an awful lot against Marth imo, it seems to be FTilt that has the best chance of punishing Marth. In fact FTilt is another move I've found that does well against Marth, as already mentioned FSmash is just too slow to connect with Marth most of the time. However with how light he is an FTilt usually does the job fine and actually connects at a good enough angle to either beat most of his slices or at least clash with them.

Based on the information we have, 80/20 I'd say.

Ganondorf really doesn't have a safe approach, and Marth can really harass him with safe pokes from ftilt and dtilt, as well as soon him with short-hopped fairs pretty easily.

Anyone wanna do the summery, if not I'll take care of it.