Weekly Match-up discussion 1: Diddy Kong

A basic overview of the advantages:
Diddy:

Faster
Less Laggy
Banana mess with everything
Less start-up on most moves


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos



A few questions that should be explored in this match-up (others may be added in the course of the discussion):

Neither is disjointed, who has better priority with usable moves?



And go!



Personally, I think the priority question is crucial because who controls the bananas has the advantage at a given time. Given that Diddy starts out with that control, he has to play offense to maintain it. If Ganondorf has better priority he should be able to "defend" the bananas and take control, something that's more difficult for Diddy to do given that he doesn't hit like a bus, and Ganondorf has higher weight.

What say you guys?

This has to be a clear advantage for Diddy. Ganons mobility in the air is not existent and on the ground the naners completely shut him down. I'm not sure if Ganons downB ignores the bananas but it fails either way, since it leaves him open and Diddy just throws the 2nd banana at him. Ganons early combos don't mean much, since he can barely touch Diddy, while Diddy juggles the evil king around like mad. Also peanut gun = gimp.

The best thing you can do is try to spike Diddy out of his recovery, if it works you have good chances to win.
I guess a good murcer choke tech chase followed by an early KO could turn the match in Ganons favour but thats highly unlikely

Ganons down b goes over bananas
Yeah, i agree with gheb_01, best way to win against Diddy kong is to spike him with dair when he is using his rocket barrel for recovery but be careful that thing can spike

Side b isnt as effective in this matchup because diddy has those banana's and u definetly trip over those things
Use dash attack a lot because you can pick up his banana that way and dash attack does 15%?
Use his banana's against him

but this would be 70-30, 80-20 in diddy kongs favour because he beats ganondorf in every department, apart from ko ability and weightwise. hes much faster, has those carzy banana's, can rack damage fast, and can gimp ganondorf's recovery with his dair which spikes

Diddy has Ganny beat KO-wise (But not in KO power of course), since Diddy has an easier time setting up KO's, and once Diddy's got Ganny off the edge, that usually spells death when one considers the nature of Ganny's recovery and Diddy's options gimp-wise.

But Being heavier is what will benefit Ganny. Patient gannon has to take control of Diddy's bananas, it's the only way to win the matchup. Just shield when you're expecting the naner to be thrown, then short hop and Z-grab the banana.

Once you have the bananas under your control, you should be able to set up combo's using the bananas. Or at least take the pressure off somewhat.

Uair I'd imagine would be a good option against Diddy, F-tilt, D-tilt. Diddy is quite light, so punish and punish hard I guess. I can honestly say I've never experienced this matchup, so all I have is theory.

Gannon's Down B sounds like a good option for hitting Diddy off the stage. Just be mindful of Diddy's across B when edgeguarding.

It's like everyone has said, Diddy starts out with the advantage, and it can pressure Ganon like hell. However, get control of the bananas and all of a sudden Diddy's screwed because now he's up against some heavy, insane KOer with combo capabilities now.

We should copy the layout of lucario's matchup that seems quite neat.




Diddy Kong
His ability to combo, and rack up damage with ease is insane. He has almost everything someone could ask for in a good character. He has projectiles, speed, range, strength, combos, and good knock back on his moves. To top it all off, he has a cool outfit


Behaviour:
* Diddy’s bananas are the focal point of his game. He will be using them to control the stage, combo with them (yes, actual combos), and for mind game purposes.
* Diddy is very lightweight (in comparison to Ganon whos heavy). He dies very quickly to G&W’s smashes and Fair. When you compare percentages at which both characters kill each other, G&W has a huge advantage over Diddy without question.

more on his behaviour?


Fundamental Moves:
Banana's: His game revolves around the banana. He control's the stage with banana's, combo's with banana's, can kill from banana's, banana's is what makes Diddy Kong so f**king good.
Fair:Diddy Kong’s forward air is the best out of his five aerial attacks. It appears to be an aerial, vertical drop kick, similar to Mario’s Back air. It has incredible knock back, and can make for a good combo. It can cause up to 14% if kept fresh. Although it can kill at around 145% damage, it isn’t really considered one of his kill moves, compared to his down or forward smashes.
Down smash: It can cause from 16-22% of damage which is quite a lot. The reach, speed, and knock back on the move is phenomenal. It’s considered one of Diddy Kong’s kill moves.
Fsmash: . It is easy to use in combos, if only one of the hits connect, which rarely happens, it does 5% damage. If both hits connect it causes up to 18-25% damage depending on how long it is held out, and how fresh it is.
Dash attack:Diddy Kong’s dash attack is one of his most useful attacks. It appears to be a dash with a cartwheel kick at the end. It is the main start for the majority of Diddy Kong’s Combos.
Side B: AKA monkey flip, is used for both recovery and attack by Diddy players, does up to 15% damage when the Diddy Kong's foot lashes out and makes contact. It can also latch onto you, and is unpublishable if it does so because he jumps off you. What makes it especially dangerous against Ganondorf is when he uses when your recovering he can latch onto you and make you fall to your doom with your sub-par recovery, while he lives


Match-Up: 55-45?60-40?65-35?70-30? (Diddy Kong's advantage)
Depends on level I guess


How to win:
*USE HIS BANANA's AGAINST HIM. Gather them with your dash attack and combo him with it. Use shield cancelled dashes, air dodges to lure him in throwing his banana's at you. If you can control his banana's, you can control the stage
*Do not approach him. Let him approach you. Approaching him allows him to combo you with his banana's
*Stay in the air to avoid to avoid tripping. Autocancelled Dair may not only allow you to pick up banana's but to deal some nasty damage
*Get him off the stage to kill him early, as you will not beat diddy kong in a trading damage contest, as he will rack damage much more often and faster then you will to him. When he uses his rocket blaster, dair him for an early spike


Stages:
(Copied from G&W match-up thread)
* Maps that have lots of aerial fighting and with few opportunities for Diddy to set up his bananas are the best stages. Rainbow Cruise fits the bill perfectly; most of the fighting is in the air, and the constantly scrolling stage limits Diddy’s banana game.
* Avoid linear stages where Diddy can easily set up bananas and easily do craploads of damage on you. Final Destination would be a very good example; the flat surface gives Diddy tons of room for him to operate, and it gives Ganondorf not so many options to approach Diddy when he has his bananas set up.

From the other thread...

Swoops said:

Ah the monkey...

Both Diddy and Ganon are pretty momentum based characters. So it's a big match of gaining control and keeping it. Unfortunately, Diddy has more tools to do this. While Diddy is pure momentum, Ganon is a lot of defense before he can work his openings. If you find yourself on the receiving end of a rushdown from Diddy, it can prove very difficult to get out. But Ganon has things going for him against the monkey. Range and edgeguarding. Your range just flat out f*cks up Diddy's.

If he does get inside, stomp screws him up pretty bad and gets over a lot of his ground hitboxes (be wary of u-tilt, as with just about everybody.) Stomps and U-Airs kill his recovery but be careful not to underestimate it or you end up on the wrong side of a barrel spike or stage spike. Bananas...really aren't that much of a problem for Ganon. I'll tell you why. Thunderstorming picks up bananas right off the ground when you're near them. Test it out and you'll see how useful it is. Ganon happens to be deadly with nanners and he has a very good glide throw as well. Nanners coupled with stomps, Gerudo, and f-smashes are all very scary.

Overall, keep out of Diddy's rushdown as you have very little to get out of it. Diddy's size actually hampers you a bit at first, but you learn to get around it. Let's not forget that punishing with Gerudo is amazing, and will keep him wary when he's looking for a kill (remember as well, he has a tough time with KOs.) You have all of your guaranteed Gerudo follow ups, and Gerudo>Shoulder starts killing at 98% before Gerudo hits.

Diddy happens to be one of Ganon's better match ups even though it doesn't look like it at first.

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adumbrodeus, pretty sure you want to keep this thread, but you could of just edited the first one and not created a new one entirely.

Vyse, even Diddy has a tough time setting up and getting KOs. His KO moves are...f-smash, d-smash, f-tilt, and f-air, all which kill well over 100% (maybe not that well, but you get my point.) Bananas are pretty much what he has to set up KOs, and while they're intimidating, Ganon can gain control of them pretty well. Ganon isn't a character that necessarily needs to "set up" his KOs, because pretty much all of his moves KO. Peanuts really aren't a big deal, even when being edgeguarded with them because peanut=0 stun and very slow.

Careful with picking up nanners with DA as its ony the very beginning frames that do it, and DA goes far. If you mistime it even a little, Im going to be seeing you next fall (that's right I said it.) Thunderstorm picks up bananas at the same range DA does.

Besides you might want to save your DA. The only "set up" Ganon needs in this match is Gerudo. Which guarantees you a KO at 98% (I think even with DI) if you hit Diddy with DA after.

Swoops said:

adumbrodeus, pretty sure you want to keep this thread, but you could of just edited the first one and not created a new one entirely.

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I expect that we'll be discussing other characters, having it all in one thread makes it difficult to seperate one dicussion from the others, plus it's impossible to resume a discussion if we ever find out more information.

Basically I'm following the Marth board's lead on this, discussions need to be re-examined occassionally and it's much better to have easy links to point to with a central thread that contains all the individual match-ups.

Hence, in the long run, life is a lot easier if we use multiple threads.



Anyone got an answer for priority? I can check but I'm not sure when I'll get a chance.

Also, the Bananas are definately not just a positive for Diddy, every time I play match-ups against Diddy, I find myself taking control of the Bananas and using them more then Diddy does. Especially this match-up.

What's the guaranteed KO at 98%?

I did some "limited" testings and I think Ganon has a slight advantage in priority. I could be wrong on this so don't take my words head on.

I've played hundreds of (competitive level) matches with my friend who mains a nasty diddy kong. The problems with a good diddy who has mastered glide tossing and non-stop banana usage are many. First and foremost is that, unlike, for instance, samus, diddy's bananas can't just be perfect shielded. Projectile spammers are easily discouraged, if not shut down by someone who can perfect shield walk. Bananas are able to connect above or below the shield, and since ganon is tall, there's alot of unshielded ganon real estate. Even if the diddy falls short or you side step to let the banana pass behind you, a hazard is left either between you and your target or between you and your backwards shield roll safety net.

One would think to just aerial the nanas, but since diddy is fast he can often simply do a dash attack which has big priority over much of ganon's moveset, comes out quick and stays out for a long time, and also, as with all characters, diddy can dash right over a banana to pick it up before his dash even starts. What this means is a really good diddy who is glide tossing all his bananas can keep two nanas out and keep tossing, dashing into the banana to pick it up after it hits ganon to the ground, then connect with ganon while he's on the ground with the tail end of his dash.

Like most of ganondorf's match ups, I'm of the opinion that it takes a very, very long time for Ganon to become a viable opponent to a strong diddy. This is because, like all his match ups, ganon must play a lot of defense and do a LOT of watching, waiting, and tactically striking. I've found a well timed thunderstorm to be the best approach against the diddy nana spam/dash attack combo. ganon can easily get above diddy on most of his approach moves and just drop a dair on him. if you get two dairs and pile up 40+%, the match is basically even. Diddy might essentially have you pinned with nanas, dashes, and diddy humps up to 60%, but if you land 2 or 3 well timed, patient hits, you've leveled the playing field and can certainly end his stock at lower percentages than he might end yours.

my two cents.

A2ZOMG said:

What's the guaranteed KO at 98%?

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Lol I said it twice in the post but if you land Gerudo at 98% you get a guaranteed DA for a KO.

Oh, I'm dumb and I had trouble reading that. <<

Also I suck at techchasing with Ganondorf, so yeah, that's probably more why I didn't understand that.

Lol s'alright, just needed a little clarifying. It's not exactly tech chasing per se. Instant dash attack is just guaranteed after Gerudo as much as jab or d-tilt is. I have a list up in FD's thread of who it's guaranteed on. The timing actually is easier than d-tilt or f-tilt. Just have to get used to buffering in forward and c-stick down.

Still, this is a very difficult match for Ganondorf, the combination of Diddy Kong's ability to combo, rack up damage with ease, and the fact that he has a projectile and can gimp Ganondorf with his Dair spike relatively easy means that this matchup would be 8-2 in favour of Diddy Kong

Shredding said:

Still, this is a very difficult match for Ganondorf, the combination of Diddy Kong's ability to combo, rack up damage with ease, and the fact that he has a projectile and can gimp Ganondorf with his Dair spike relatively easy means that this matchup would be 8-2 in favour of Diddy Kong

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Ganondorf also can combo pretty easily, and his are a great deal more powerful. He also racks up damage at a very high rate.

Peanuts are pretty much useless in general, so I assume you mean Bananas. If he uses them, then ganondorf has a projectile as well.

Ganondorf's dair is also REALLY effective for spiking Diddy. Moreso then the Diddy's, because his ^b is a great deal more gimpable, and Ganondorf's dair is quite possibly the best dair in the game.

^ so adumbrodeus what do u reckon the match up number would be then?

7-3 in favor of diddy. This can shift pretty easily in either direction depending on level choice. On final dest, I'd say it's an 8-2 match up due to the width of the stage and lack of platforms, two factors which make for nasty nana toss comboing. On Yoshi's island, delfino, or corneria, I'd put it at 6-4 or even 5-5 due to the uneven and/or narrower level, multitude of platforms, and favorable edges for diddy gimping.

All in all, if we're to rate this match on a "neutral" stage (BF?) I'd rate it 7-3 in diddy's favor.

Diddy is pure momentous, aggressive pressure. I know it's not as simple as that but I'm putting it in basic terms. He puts the pressure on and keeps it there with bananas and DA. His recovery is gimpable but ours is probably just as much, if not more, gimpable. Tripping is a really big hazard so watch out when using both Gerudo and DA. Be a little wary with wizard's kick as well because even though it goes over the bananas, the beginning animation doesn't and will make you trip if you are too close. Even with bananas, try to get in Gerudo as much as you can, for guaranteed follow ups.

Ganon is known for being extremely defensive, creating openings for short bursts, and putting on a hell of a lot of damage in those openings. The thing is, when people tend to put ground pressure on Ganon, they get f*cked up, and Diddy doesn't have much on the ground that goes through stomp (besides u-tilt.) Whenever you land a stomp, you get the opportunity to effectively stop Diddy's pressure game for a bit, and tack on a decent amount of damage. Stomp is useful not only for damage in this match but you can also pick bananas right off the ground with it. You can gain control of Diddy's nanners just by pogoing around. Let me make it clear though that Diddy can be overwhelming. If you get caught in his flurry, It's hard as hell for Ganon to get out. You do not want to get caught in it. Be on the look out for stomps if you do.

Overall, Diddy is overwhelming with his pressure, but Ganon thrives in pressure. At least in Diddy's type. I'd call the match a 6-4 in Diddy's favor.

Shredding said:

^ so adumbrodeus what do u reckon the match up number would be then?

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Honestly not sure, but it's a relatively close match-up, it needs more discussion, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's a slight advantage to either party.

Swoops said:

Diddy is pure momentous, aggressive pressure. I know it's not as simple as that but I'm putting it in basic terms. He puts the pressure on and keeps it there with bananas and DA. His recovery is gimpable but ours is probably just as much, if not more, gimpable. Tripping is a really big hazard so watch out when using both Gerudo and DA. Be a little wary with wizard's kick as well because even though it goes over the bananas, the beginning animation doesn't and will make you trip if you are too close. Even with bananas, try to get in Gerudo as much as you can, for guaranteed follow ups.

Ganon is known for being extremely defensive, creating openings for short bursts, and putting on a hell of a lot of damage in those openings. The thing is, when people tend to put ground pressure on Ganon, they get f*cked up, and Diddy doesn't have much on the ground that goes through stomp (besides u-tilt.) Whenever you land a stomp, you get the opportunity to effectively stop Diddy's pressure game for a bit, and tack on a decent amount of damage. Stomp is useful not only for damage in this match but you can also pick bananas right off the ground with it. You can gain control of Diddy's nanners just by pogoing around. Let me make it clear though that Diddy can be overwhelming. If you get caught in his flurry, It's hard as hell for Ganon to get out. You do not want to get caught in it. Be on the look out for stomps if you do.

Overall, Diddy is overwhelming with his pressure, but Ganon thrives in pressure. At least in Diddy's type. I'd call the match a 6-4 in Diddy's favor.

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A little addition to that, Ganon CAN be offensive in this match-up. Once he gets an a fair amount of damage in and clears diddy (most of his combos end with considerable knockback), he can use the openings to take control of the bananas himself, and use them to create openings. It's a lot more difficult to dodge Ganon's attacks when you're in tripping animation, no?

I think this match up falls between a 6:4-7:3 ain the beginning of a match. If Diddy can keep control of his bananas and all that then he can do pretty well. But the moment Ganon takes control of the bananas or anything like that the match can suddenly turn into a 6:4-7:3 to Ganon. For Ganon with bananans is just **** for Diddy.

If Ganon can take control of the bananas, he might have a pretty good chance due to his weight, power, and Diddy's recovery. But as long as Diddy keeps the fruity pressure on him, this would seem like a pretty hard match up for Ganon...

Just saying that I'm calling for a 70:30.

^Yes...but in who's favor?

^ Obviously diddy kong's favour

Thunderstorming is your only hope in this matchup lol

seriously use it more than ever vs diddy

Flying Dutchman said:

Just saying that I'm calling for a 70:30.

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Ummm, reasoning please?

The discussion was going quite well before that post.




Back on track:

I think it's been pretty well concluded that whoever controls the bananas at the movement is winning, so that leaves a few questions to be considered (both in winner and degree of win),


1. Who is at least of a disadvantage while his opponent has control of the bananas? (priority issue definitely plays a role here)
2. Who has an easier time gaining control?
3. Is diddy better off not using the Bananas period.


Now the answers to number 1 and 2 will probably lead to these answers:

4. How big of an advantage does Diddy have with starting out in control of the bananas?

5. Do Ganon's ease of obtaining control and power compared to Diddy when using the bananas outweigh that advantage? (obviously if he has relatively more difficulty in those areas it won't)

bad for ganon. but use ganons ability to" hit like a bus of fat people". Give diddy a "this is sparta!"

he wont soon forget.

adumbrodeus said:

Back on track:

I think it's been pretty well concluded that whoever controls the bananas at the movement is winning, so that leaves a few questions to be considered (both in winner and degree of win),


1. Who is at least of a disadvantage while his opponent has control of the bananas? (priority issue definitely plays a role here)
2. Who has an easier time gaining control?
3. Is diddy better off not using the Bananas period.


Now the answers to number 1 and 2 will probably lead to these answers:

4. How big of an advantage does Diddy have with starting out in control of the bananas?

5. Do Ganon's ease of obtaining control and power compared to Diddy when using the bananas outweigh that advantage? (obviously if he has relatively more difficulty in those areas it won't)

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1. Tough, if Ganon has control of the bananas he better stay close, he gets free stomps if Diddy is too careless and gets banana fever (or goes banannerz, lol take your pick.) I personally think that Diddy is at more of a disadvantage with is his bananas in another's clutch (lol) just because his whole game is based around them. Okay, sorry, not whole game but a large portion of it. Ganon becomes a lot better with bananas and they aid him a hell of a lot, seriously they should of put them into his moveset. But Ganon's game isn't based around fruit.

2. Ganon honestly has a tough time getting in control sometimes, but like me & ChromePirate said, thunderstorm is one of Ganon's biggest advantages in this match up. IT PICKS UP BANANAS OFF THE GOD D*MNED GROUND! Lol, meaning you're using one of your best, lag-free attacks that Diddy has a tough time against, and gaining control of the bananas at the same time. Seriously, thunderstorming and thunderstorming well is key in this match.

3. No.

4. This one is a pretty big one for Diddy. A good Diddy can pull the nanners out and keep the pressure coming, so it's hard for you to get out. You need to be patient and good at your timing so you can look for a stomp opening to gain conrtrol. Ganon really has to know how to punish Diddy's pressure.

5. I actually think it's about even, I don't think Ganon's power and reach really completely outweigh Diddy's advantage of pressure from the start. It's a good advantage, but like I said Ganon wants you to come to him. If Diddy get too into applying his pressure, he'll be sorry he was attacking in furry flurries.

...you know what? I actually think this is a pretty even and interesting match up. I'm going to say 50-50...yup that's right.

Swoops said:

3. No.

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Why? This is actually a rather important issue, because if Ganon actually performs better in this match-up with Bananas on the field (due to an ability to gain control easier when pressured with them and ability to use them better) then without, Diddy won't use them in this match-up.

So it's important to figure about what Diddy can do in this match-up without using Bananas.

adumbrodeus said:

Ummm, reasoning please?

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You guys are all stealing my lines! But I'm just saying that it should be 70:30, rather than 60:40. 60:40 is a pretty good match-up (Ganon-wise), which Diddy just isn't. He's still hard.

I would say a 70:30 matchup is about right too, Diddy's banana game against a big target like Ganondorf? Ganny's going to be tripping all over the place even with a good thunderstorming game, I mean most of the time Diddy is just going to be grabbing the banana's back out of the air rather than re-picking them up. Not to mention Ganondorf is one slow guy when getting up, hes either going to get banana'd again when he tries rolling or grabbed if he kicks out.

Putting aside the nana's for a moment, I'm pretty sure his neutral A can also be a nasty damage racker against Ganny its abit like being caught in that **** G&W's neutral A.

Flying Dutchman said:

You guys are all stealing my lines! But I'm just saying that it should be 70:30, rather than 60:40. 60:40 is a pretty good match-up (Ganon-wise), which Diddy just isn't. He's still hard.

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Lol I still don't hear a reason FD other than "he's Ganondorf and it's hard"

Shadow Nataku said:

I would say a 70:30 matchup is about right too, Diddy's banana game against a big target like Ganondorf? Ganny's going to be tripping all over the place even with a good thunderstorming game, I mean most of the time Diddy is just going to be grabbing the banana's back out of the air rather than re-picking them up. Not to mention Ganondorf is one slow guy when getting up, hes either going to get banana'd again when he tries rolling or grabbed if he kicks out.

Putting aside the nana's for a moment, I'm pretty sure his neutral A can also be a nasty damage racker against Ganny its abit like being caught in that **** G&W's neutral A.

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Tripping affects everyone the same way I'm pretty sure, and I'm talking about a good thunderstorming game because it punishes a lot of the things Diddy attempts and grabs bananas mid pressure.

You realize that Diddy's neutral A can DI out of pretty easily and doesn't rack up that much damage against a person with good DI.

Flying Dutchman said:

You guys are all stealing my lines! But I'm just saying that it should be 70:30, rather than 60:40. 60:40 is a pretty good match-up (Ganon-wise), which Diddy just isn't. He's still hard.

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Been saying that since out of the cradle man, was mine first.

I get it, we know Ganondorf is bad, but this is a wierd match-up Diddy is wierd. Maybe we've just been playing it wrong, and if we play it right it isn't anywhere near as bad. Again, it's not like I haven't tried playing this way against an objectively better Diddy (aka, he ***** my Marth, who is my main). That's why I brought this up in the first place.

Sure, this is too little evidence to call anything on it's own, but it may indicate SOMETHING is there that we just haven't considered.



And if nothing else, we can still use this to establish an optimal playstyle against Diddy.



But only if we have reasoning other then "Ganondorf is bad" or "diddy is hard".



So, what makes this a bad match-up, please explain.

Swoops said:

Tripping affects everyone the same way I'm pretty sure, and I'm talking about a good thunderstorming game because it punishes a lot of the things Diddy attempts and grabs bananas mid pressure.

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The point was more Ganny is a big target and less maneuvreble he can't afford to lose anymore than he already lacks.

Diddy's banana game has always been about restricting movement and piling aggressive pressure. If Ganondorf is forced into a primarily thunderstorming game than Diddy's already got a significant advantage. Its not feasible either to just keep doing thunderstorm repeatedly 100% perfect. Ganny doesn't have enough options gainst a good Didd to be considered anywhere even close to being on almost even playing field, Diddy wi'll simply mix it up.

Alright, I'll play your game.

There are plenty of reasons as to why it's a 70:30, mostly because he just has things over you to which countering is extremely hard. He can shut down an aggressive game easily with his nannerz and glide toss, and a good Diddy will always keep his banana's in check. He knows to keep on the offensive and put the pressure on you until you make one tiny slip and get yourself damaged. And you will eventually slip up.

When you do slip up, Diddy has plenty of options to hammer it down on you. He's fast, very fast. A character such as Ganondorf can get himself easily combo'd to hell and back. But, you know this much already. The one thing Diddy has problems with on Ganondorf is getting kills. But, he will eventually rack enough damage and land a Smash. Know that eventually, you'll get killed.

Now, what sets this apart from a 60:40 match-up? You have your weapons against Diddy, so he should theoretically be easy to counter, right? Well, the answer is that Diddy's abilities are not stage-restricted. For instance, a character such as Lucas would be considered a 60:40 match-up. He might have projectile spam, but clever stage picking can rule this out for the most part. But Diddy's nannerz work virtually everywhere.

One thing that I would like to propose is picking a clever stage... Which I haven't really seen discussed (although I only vaguely went through this thread). Now, what does Diddy do best? He controls the stage. The wider the stage is, the wider his control, the greater amount of power. Agreed? So, limit the stage to small platforms only. Norfair should, theoretically, work against Diddy, because of the small platforms, lessening the usage of his glide toss and nanner combo's. Another stage example would, hypothetically, be Green Greens. The small platforms leave for very little leeway for Diddy. The stage itself is very small, as are the KO borders. Combine Ganondorf's killing power with a small KO border and Diddy's low weight and we have a winning combination right there.

If you can successfully shut down Diddy's nanner game by bringing him to an unusal stage, the match-up becomes a lot easier. Diddy is still hard without them, but more in the 60:40 direction. With his nannerz, it's a lot harder. Every Diddy should be trained in using their nannerz in multiple ways. You can try to take it away with thunderstorming and using Murder Kick, but a good Diddy will find out a way to work around them.

So, 70:30 in my opinion sounds just right. It's not 80:20 hard, and 60:40 is just too low.

Swoopz said:

Lol I still don't hear a reason FD other than "he's Ganondorf and it's hard"

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You know I'm totally right, though.

It's quite simple to deal with the banana fiend! First of all, you force him to drop the banana. Then you eat the banana, thus disarming him! You have now rendered him helpless!
...though I suppose Diddy's got a bunch.

Sadly I can contribute nothing more to this matchup discussion.
CARRY ON,
/RtEB

Flying Dutchman said:

So, limit the stage to small platforms only. Norfair should, theoretically, work against Diddy, because of the small platforms, lessening the usage of his glide toss and nanner combo's. Another stage example would, hypothetically, be Green Greens. The small platforms leave for very little leeway for Diddy. The stage itself is very small, as are the KO borders. Combine Ganondorf's killing power with a small KO border and Diddy's low weight and we have a winning combination right there.

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I think this is perfectly viable but I'd like to add something exta.

That it has to be strictly platform stages (like the aforementioned Norfair in theory should be brilliant), not platform stages with platforms underneath as well. Reason I say this is that I've been watching some Diddy videos and I've noticed their banana's absolutely destroy slow characters on levels like Battlefield. (Check out a certain player named Gano)

Platform stages with a main platform underneath are an horribly easy excuse for Diddy to scatter banana's on platforms rendering aerial approaches useless. Afterwhich he can simply do short hopped attacks while grabbing a banana off the platforms in his approaches. For this reason I don't think Green Greens actually works, the middle platforms are just asking for Ganny to hit his head. However Norfair works alot better since its harder for Diddy to lay out the banana's and numerous height platforms means Ganny has more ways of approaching.

Also if I might add another stage but Delfino Plaza I believe is also a great counter pick. The part with islands and water surrounding them almost render Diddy's grabs/nannerz and rush tactics useless with his popgun having next to no priority against nearly all of Ganny's aerial attacks. Its only a temporary moment but that is the one point in that stage Ganny can actually pile on some offense which is a luxury. Diddy has no real attacks including his weakish spike that can really hurt Ganny's aerial priority when abusing the water and ledges. Also the platforms are so tiny he can't really lay the banana's out without them falling off the stages.

Flying Dutchman said:

Alright, I'll play your game.

There are plenty of reasons as to why it's a 70:30, mostly because he just has things over you to which countering is extremely hard. He can shut down an aggressive game easily with his nannerz and glide toss, and a good Diddy will always keep his banana's in check. He knows to keep on the offensive and put the pressure on you until you make one tiny slip and get yourself damaged. And you will eventually slip up.

When you do slip up, Diddy has plenty of options to hammer it down on you. He's fast, very fast. A character such as Ganondorf can get himself easily combo'd to hell and back. But, you know this much already. The one thing Diddy has problems with on Ganondorf is getting kills. But, he will eventually rack enough damage and land a Smash. Know that eventually, you'll get killed.

Now, what sets this apart from a 60:40 match-up? You have your weapons against Diddy, so he should theoretically be easy to counter, right? Well, the answer is that Diddy's abilities are not stage-restricted. For instance, a character such as Lucas would be considered a 60:40 match-up. He might have projectile spam, but clever stage picking can rule this out for the most part. But Diddy's nannerz work virtually everywhere.

One thing that I would like to propose is picking a clever stage... Which I haven't really seen discussed (although I only vaguely went through this thread). Now, what does Diddy do best? He controls the stage. The wider the stage is, the wider his control, the greater amount of power. Agreed? So, limit the stage to small platforms only. Norfair should, theoretically, work against Diddy, because of the small platforms, lessening the usage of his glide toss and nanner combo's. Another stage example would, hypothetically, be Green Greens. The small platforms leave for very little leeway for Diddy. The stage itself is very small, as are the KO borders. Combine Ganondorf's killing power with a small KO border and Diddy's low weight and we have a winning combination right there.

If you can successfully shut down Diddy's nanner game by bringing him to an unusal stage, the match-up becomes a lot easier. Diddy is still hard without them, but more in the 60:40 direction. With his nannerz, it's a lot harder. Every Diddy should be trained in using their nannerz in multiple ways. You can try to take it away with thunderstorming and using Murder Kick, but a good Diddy will find out a way to work around them.

So, 70:30 in my opinion sounds just right. It's not 80:20 hard, and 60:40 is just too low.



You know I'm totally right, though.

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Lol, glad you played the game, I like the debate better. Since when does Ganon play aggressively? Diddy can shut down rushers under two conditions: when he has control of his nannerz, and when he has control of the stage, essentially they're the same thing though. Once Diddy starts with the banana rush, it's hard to stop him. Of course you're going to hit the ground sooner or later. But even though Ganon has a tough time getting out of Diddy's fury, he can banandle himself pretty well if he's patient.

Diddy is still hard without bananas but you can out range him, out power him, and out punish him. Ganon kinda trumps Diddy's aerial game and puts a pretty good halt to his ground game, even Diddy's DA.

I really wouldn't even advise trying to advance with Wizard's Foot over the bananas because it's way too risky. But thunderstorming to grab bananas is pretty nice, and it's hard for Diddy to get around with only f-air, but I suppose he has Diddy hump which actually might be pretty helpful in this match up.

I'm not trying to water down Diddy's abilities at all, I still think he has amazing pressure, can combo Ganon like none other, and can be overwhelming. But I think that Ganon can take some pressure and turn it around when he needs to for good damage. Diddy definitely has the advantage but I don't think it is as apparent as others, 60:40

edit- effin, that skit is awesome

Flying Dutchman said:

Alright, I'll play your game.

There are plenty of reasons as to why it's a 70:30, mostly because he just has things over you to which countering is extremely hard. He can shut down an aggressive game easily with his nannerz and glide toss, and a good Diddy will always keep his banana's in check. He knows to keep on the offensive and put the pressure on you until you make one tiny slip and get yourself damaged. And you will eventually slip up.

When you do slip up, Diddy has plenty of options to hammer it down on you. He's fast, very fast. A character such as Ganondorf can get himself easily combo'd to hell and back. But, you know this much already. The one thing Diddy has problems with on Ganondorf is getting kills. But, he will eventually rack enough damage and land a Smash. Know that eventually, you'll get killed.

Now, what sets this apart from a 60:40 match-up? You have your weapons against Diddy, so he should theoretically be easy to counter, right? Well, the answer is that Diddy's abilities are not stage-restricted. For instance, a character such as Lucas would be considered a 60:40 match-up. He might have projectile spam, but clever stage picking can rule this out for the most part. But Diddy's nannerz work virtually everywhere.

One thing that I would like to propose is picking a clever stage... Which I haven't really seen discussed (although I only vaguely went through this thread). Now, what does Diddy do best? He controls the stage. The wider the stage is, the wider his control, the greater amount of power. Agreed? So, limit the stage to small platforms only. Norfair should, theoretically, work against Diddy, because of the small platforms, lessening the usage of his glide toss and nanner combo's. Another stage example would, hypothetically, be Green Greens. The small platforms leave for very little leeway for Diddy. The stage itself is very small, as are the KO borders. Combine Ganondorf's killing power with a small KO border and Diddy's low weight and we have a winning combination right there.

If you can successfully shut down Diddy's nanner game by bringing him to an unusal stage, the match-up becomes a lot easier. Diddy is still hard without them, but more in the 60:40 direction. With his nannerz, it's a lot harder. Every Diddy should be trained in using their nannerz in multiple ways. You can try to take it away with thunderstorming and using Murder Kick, but a good Diddy will find out a way to work around them.

So, 70:30 in my opinion sounds just right. It's not 80:20 hard, and 60:40 is just too low.



You know I'm totally right, though.

Click to expand...

Thank you, that's pretty much what we wanted.



The post itself, was pretty much was pretty much our conclusion, assuming that Diddy keeps the Bananas under his control all game. I guess the consensus is that generally he does, but it's ultimately more productive to ask, "will he in this match-up"?

Yes, good Diddys have tricks to keep them in check, but because of the dump-truck sized openings that Ganondorf creates whenever he lands a hit or combo, theoretically he should be able to use the created pause, and instead of chasing, go for the bananas on the field. Basically any attack Ganondorf gets in is an open invitation to steal diddy's bananas and use them.

From there, Ganondorf has very similar advantages to what Diddy has, he can use the openings created to do some rather effective combos, and ultimately land a Ko.

Obviously, Diddy will have an inherent advantage practicing in the Bananas since it's so crucial to his game, but that just means that Ganondorf players have to practice with Bananas a lot to get used to playing with them if they wish to do well in this match-up.

Also, it goes without saying that Diddy starting with control is an advantage here.


So again I'll say it, the major question here is figuring out how difficult it is for Ganondorf to gain control of bananas. From there, how powerful is he really with them? Then finally, how much of Diddy's "starting with Bananas" advantage does this off-set?