Diddy Kong [Old] General Match-Ups

Le_THieN · Aug 25, 2008

Jesus, People

For a group of players supposedly excited about the prospect of advancing Diddy's meta-game, the last slew of posts have been incredibly vain, presumptuous, baseless, and generally not very helpful at all. Every single character analysis so far has had its share of smug Diddy mains slagging off one another, because apparently match-ups with every single character we've looked at ought to be a cakewalk. To automatically assume that the other person is an incompetent player because they express difficulties in a particular match-up reeks of nothing more than conceited douche-baggery.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how favorable the (usually arbitrary) match-up odds offered by every ****-waving know-it-all on these forums are - because simply put, there is never 100% certainty that you will walk away with a victory under your belt. Even if 80:20 odds in Diddy's favor against Captain Falcon seems like a fairly reliable number, there technically still exists a 1/5 chance that your opponent can pull out an upset. Weird, nonsensical **** happens in this game all the time, and you'll have no one else to blame except for yourself if you're not at least prepped for the probability of defeat from even the most unlikely of opponents.

Let's knock off the senseless drivel and get on with things, okay kids?

And Vyse - can we go ahead and move onto whatever this week's character match-up discussion is supposed to be on? People seemed considerably less engaged with the G&W overview (their loss), and Olimar and Wolf seem like popular conversation fodder, although I prefer to dissect Wolf myself.

pastaboy · Aug 26, 2008

thats the most postive thing ive heard all day. the win to lose ratio isnt exact, its and estimate

DanGR · Aug 26, 2008

"The main disadvantage for Diddy is that Yoshi=no edgeguarding. He is extremely hard to edgeguard which is where diddy excells. The bad thing for Yoshi is that most of Diddy's moves have more priority than Yoshis.

It’s kind of like why luigi’s matchup is bad. When yoshi gets hit by a banana he slides farther than most chars which is makes it hard to follow up. Also Yoshi can chain grab diddy across the stage. YOSHI IS HEAVY. He prioritizes your attacks as well. So it’s more in Yoshi’s favor."

So which way is it? Sorry for the vagueness, but I need to know.

pastaboy · Aug 26, 2008

DanGR said:
"The main disadvantage for Diddy is that Yoshi=no edgeguarding. He is extremely hard to edgeguard which is where diddy excells. The bad thing for Yoshi is that most of Diddy's moves have more priority than Yoshis.

It’s kind of like why luigi’s matchup is bad. When yoshi gets hit by a banana he slides farther than most chars which is makes it hard to follow up. Also Yoshi can chain grab diddy across the stage. YOSHI IS HEAVY. He prioritizes your attacks as well. So it’s more in Yoshi’s favor."

So which way is it? Sorry for the vagueness, but I need to know.

so what bout edgeguarding, there r other ways to fight then off the edge you know.
yoshi may slide fair but not as far as luigi and that isnt even that bad, you have an ulimiated number of bananas, he will still be slipin and sliding and feeliging very pressured.
if yoshi is off the edge, thro a banana at him lol

Player-1 · Aug 26, 2008

DanGR said:
"The main disadvantage for Diddy is that Yoshi=no edgeguarding. He is extremely hard to edgeguard which is where diddy excells. The bad thing for Yoshi is that most of Diddy's moves have more priority than Yoshis.

It’s kind of like why luigi’s matchup is bad. When yoshi gets hit by a banana he slides farther than most chars which is makes it hard to follow up. Also Yoshi can chain grab diddy across the stage. YOSHI IS HEAVY. He prioritizes your attacks as well. So it’s more in Yoshi’s favor."

So which way is it? Sorry for the vagueness, but I need to know.

Only 2 of yoshis attack out prioritizes diddys. Minus the popgun

bludhoundz · Aug 26, 2008

DanGR said:
"The main disadvantage for Diddy is that Yoshi=no edgeguarding. He is extremely hard to edgeguard which is where diddy excells. The bad thing for Yoshi is that most of Diddy's moves have more priority than Yoshis.

It’s kind of like why luigi’s matchup is bad. When yoshi gets hit by a banana he slides farther than most chars which is makes it hard to follow up. Also Yoshi can chain grab diddy across the stage. YOSHI IS HEAVY. He prioritizes your attacks as well. So it’s more in Yoshi’s favor."

So which way is it? Sorry for the vagueness, but I need to know.

The Luigi matchup isn't so bad because of the sliding, it's because of the slew of high priority quick aerials. The sliding isn't really a huge issue at all actually, it will save Yoshi from some distanced combos, but Yoshi still won't make it out of a glide toss -> fsmash at fairly close range.

Also Diddy has a CG as well, and because Yoshi slides further it's actually much easier to set up :D

Yoshi has SA frames during his double jump, but he isn't invincible to grab-like moves (diddy hump might work, though I haven't tested it).

Diddy can try to give Yoshi a hard time as he is returning to the stage, even if he can't gimp him. Key banana placement, peanut shots and good Diddy spacing will make it difficult to land on the stage / get up from the edge.

I'm not an expert on this matchup, in fact I have no experience with it at all (I am simply theorizing), but I'd say it's probably 50/50 maybe 55/45 Diddy's favor.

Le_THieN · Aug 26, 2008

pastaboy said:
so what bout edgeguarding, there r other ways to fight then off the edge you know.

Okay, then – against a character who has the fastest aerial horizontal movement as well as super armor on the initial frames of one of the safest, widest-arcing double jumps in the game, what would be your patented edge-guarding recommendations?

bludhoundz said:
Yoshi has SA frames during his double jump, but he isn't invincible to grab-like moves (diddy hump might work, though I haven't tested it).

Best to my knowledge, as long as you’re out of the immediate hit-box range of any move that has super armor, you’ll almost always be able to Diddy Hump them. The easiest instance I’ve been able to execute this is when I’m forcing D3 to use the Super Dedede Jump from way below stage level. From what I’ve examined, the hit-boxes on that move exist only directly above and below him, making this a fairly predictable recovery to intercept.

As far as Yoshi’s second jump goes, it is also susceptible to the Diddy Hump, but there are a couple of things that discourages even attempting the move:

• Smart Yoshi players can and will mix up their recovery attempts. As we all know very well, horizontal recovery distance has been augmented in some capacity for every single returning character of the game, and Yoshi even benefits from new momentum created by the Egg Throw.

• In many cases, Yoshi players won’t even have to deploy all these resources because of the sheer height and distance on his double jump, and the super armor frames on the jump make him virtually ungimpable.

• Even if you do manage to intercept and squeeze off a Diddy Hump, Yoshi is usually at a safe enough height to wear he can simply Egg Throw to catch the ledge. Baiting a second jump activated at low angles also immediately becomes predictable; if your opponent suspects an aerial attack, he will simply double-jump earlier to activate super armor frames, and Diddy Hump attempts are easily deterred by the very quick F-air.

As is the case against MetaKnight, it’s probably in your best interest to not even worry about gimping him by going directly off-stage and just reestablish banana setups. The only immediate problem with this is that you are also giving your opponent an opportunity to renew his offense; this means a barrage of Egg Throws via ledge-camping (which is both annoying and surprisingly effective, since eggs are basically a larger, higher-priority version of peanuts), being baited into retreating pivot grabs (which is particularly bothersome because the range on this sucker rivals that of Falco’s and even Dedede’s), and running the risk of being KO’ed very early anywhere between 85-110%.

This match-up and the Wolf match-up are two of the primary reasons why I have decided to actively save my D-smash until I am certain it will kill someone (unless I have been mentally keeping move decay count, of course).

bludhoundz said:
I'm not an expert on this matchup, in fact I have no experience with it at all (I am simply theorizing), but I'd say it's probably 50/50 maybe 55/45 Diddy's favor.

I’ve had the opportunity to share several friendlies with Bwett, who indisputably the best Yoshi in Texas (if not the country), and I think it’s safe to say that this is a dead heat match-up with the victor determined only by who makes the least amount of mistakes.

Mmac · Aug 26, 2008

You're also forgetting that Yoshi can also Airdodge DURING his Double Jump, while maintaining the Momentum. Also Banana's don't work because the Armour is Knockback based, and Banana's don't have very much.

Also Neither of them outprioritizes eachother, they both have equal priority. It's more of the case that Yoshi Outranges him.

Retreating Pivot Grabs are good, but any good Yoshi should be using Quick Double Stick/Single Stick Pivot Grabs by now, as you can do it on the Spot, making it alot more useful in both a Defencive and Offencive move. I still don't know why Bwett as good as he is still chooses to do it classic, but he would improve the use twice as much if he learn how to do it.

But I agree that the entire Matchup is Even

Vyse · Aug 26, 2008

I'll go ahead and change the topic tonight (It'll be something like 3 in the morning for you guys by that time though).

Maybe I'll change it to Yoshi since there's a lot of conversation going on about him here?

ADHD · Aug 26, 2008

vyse said:
I'll go ahead and change the topic tonight (It'll be something like 3 in the morning for you guys by that time though).

Maybe I'll change it to Yoshi since there's a lot of conversation going on about him here?

Can we go dedede? The matchup is strange

NinjaLink · Aug 26, 2008

ChromePirate said:
Can we go dedede? The matchup is strange

D3 gets ***** by diddy.....but then again thats me :laugh:

I dont why ppl have a problem. If u play it right D3 CANT MOVE. He cant CG u cause of bananas. U pressure him to the point of frustration. Its literally Falco vs Bowser in melee.

Le_THieN · Aug 26, 2008

Mmac said:
Retreating Pivot Grabs are good, but any good Yoshi should be using Quick Double Stick/Single Stick Pivot Grabs by now, as you can do it on the Spot, making it alot more useful in both a Defencive and Offencive move. I still don't know why Bwett as good as he is still chooses to do it classic, but he would improve the use twice as much if he learn how to do it.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing the finer details to these techniques, but I don't use any characters who have insanely far-reaching pivot grabs. Can you outline what quick double stick/single stick pivot grabs are, and what exactly is the classic style? I've probably seen all these in action, I just didn't know that there were multiple versions of them.

And I guess you know Bwett, huh? =)

Mmac · Aug 26, 2008

The Classic Pivot grab is just simply Grabbing Backwards out of a Dash. Quick Pivot's is doing a Pivot Grab on the spot (Just like a Standing Grab). Basically you don't need to be running backwards, You can just do it anywhere.

It works for all characters, but it really only Benefits Yoshi, Lucas, and Olimar.

NinjaLink · Aug 26, 2008

Mmac said:
The Classic Pivot grab is just simply Grabbing Backwards out of a Dash. Quick Pivot's is doing a Pivot Grab on the spot (Just like a Standing Grab). Basically you don't need to be running backwards, You can just do it anywhere.

It works for all characters, but it really only Benefits Yoshi, Lucas, and Olimar.

and ivysaur......ppl didnt kno about that lol

Mew2King · Aug 26, 2008

all DDD can do vs diddy is hope diddy dash attacks DDDs shield and DDD times a grab into back throw

ADHD · Aug 26, 2008

Mew2King said:
all DDD can do vs diddy is hope diddy dash attacks DDDs shield and DDD times a grab into back throw

Idk, maybe its just me but patient d3s are a ***** I can combo them but I have trouble landing the finishing blow, i guess i can just be gay and spam some more nanerz then

Vyse · Aug 27, 2008

OKAY. Week #7.
Wolf.

This is a particularly meaningful matchup to me, since I spend a lot of my time practicing with my crew's Wolf. If there is one thing Wolf can be, its annoying. Patience my friends. Patience is key. Throw in those single hit, and move around his laser.

Once you've got wolf into his tripping animation, take it for all its worth. Banana lock and combo his rear end from one end of the stage to the other. If there's one thing Wolf is, it's gimpable. Get him off the edge and use you edgeguarding tricks. His recovery isn't particularly great, and this is an area that Diddy excels in.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 27, 2008

I already wrote a lot of stuff about Diddy vs. Wolf. Called me biased for being a Wolf mainer but I'm dead certain, that Wolf has a 60:40 advantage vs. Diddy and I can give you lots of reasons...

- Wolf can destroy Diddys banana strategies. Fair picks them up and Shine bounces them back
- Wolf has a better camping game. A high priority prpjectile + Shine >>> Peanut gun
- Diddys best way to deal dmg to Wolf is via combos. On the ground, he needs bananas for it, in the air Wolf's bair outranges Diddy
- Wolf has overall more range
- Wolf is moderately heavy and finishing is diddys biggest weakness
- Diddy lacks disjointed hitboxes. Wolf can counter almost every move of diddy with Shine
- Wolfs Dsmash finishes leightweight Diddy very fast

Vyse basically said, what Diddy can do against Wolf but even if Wolf is gimpable, Diddy has to get him off the stage first. It should also be noted, that Diddy has more priority on most moves.

bludhoundz · Aug 27, 2008

Gheb, you are right, Wolf's bair is definitely a force to be reckoned with when you're Diddy, but it does not outrange all his aerial options. Diddy's fair I believe has similar range, and if he's holding a banana in the air, he can punish a bair.

Wolf can definitely outcamp Diddy, but this is due to the reflector not the laser. Yes his blaster can be quite a hassle but it doesn't beat Diddy's bananas in terms of range and stage control / spacing. The only way to beat the reflector is to trick your opponent into using it at times when it isn't necessary (glide toss a banana upward or downward). Using strategies like this or throwing bananas that don't reach Wolf can help you train your opponent into NOT reflecting. Then you can use some banana combos, but the problem is you have to reset the mindgame every time because your opponent will start using the reflector again. Continually mix it up. Your bananas will definitely be reflected a few times during this match.

Use the peanuts for edgeguarding: if you nail Wolf with one of them, consider him gimped. It messes up his side b and up b a lot, causing him to fall before he can do them again, and since Wolf is a fastfaller, this is particularly effective.

Diddy's ground game and Wolf's are almost equal in range, except for Wolf's Fsmash. I think the key is to be within Fsmash range, but close enough that it isn't an effective option for Wolf. At this point your Ftilt outranges the majority of his moves, but look out for the SA / disjointedness on the reflector.

Look out for juggling traps: Wolf's Fair and Uair knock you up, and his Utilt and Usmash are great for sending you right back up there. If you're high up enough, you can pull out a banana and double jump to z catch (you can also save the double jump and just use the banana as a defense for your landing). This gives you a lot more options when returning to the ground, as you can drop the banana or throw it down. Your opponent will learn this and probably not stay right below you (though he can reflect, so look out for this). You can still throw the banana down as it will prevent him from moving himself right under you, and you can DI away from your opponent so that the banana is in the way (feel free to fire off a popgun shot or two also). You also have your side b to move yourself horizontally.

Wolf's dthrow is a great setup for him to approach you, so try to space yourself as to not get shield grabbed.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 27, 2008

Answers in red

bludhoundz said:
Gheb, you are right, Wolf's bair is definitely a force to be reckoned with when you're Diddy, but it does not outrange all his aerial options. Diddy's fair I believe has similar range, and if he's holding a banana in the air, he can punish a bair.

No. Wolfs bairs range > diddys fair range. Throwing bananas in the air doesn't work, iirc as the bair cancels it. I could be wrong though. And of course, it can still hit if timed well. I think it's in fact, diddys best option in the air

Wolf can definitely outcamp Diddy, but this is due to the reflector not the laser. Yes his blaster can be quite a hassle but it doesn't beat Diddy's bananas in terms of range and stage control / spacing.

The blaster does cancel thrown bananas though

The only way to beat the reflector is to trick your opponent into using it at times when it isn't necessary (glide toss a banana upward or downward).
Using strategies like this or throwing bananas that don't reach Wolf can help you train your opponent into NOT reflecting. Then you can use some banana combos, but the problem is you have to reset the mindgame every time because your opponent will start using the reflector again. Continually mix it up. Your bananas will definitely be reflected a few times during this match.

Wolf has enough possibilities, against the bananas. He can not only reflect them but also pick them uo with his 0 lag fair. Diddy can beat it but it's range and priority makes it hard to break through

Use the peanuts for edgeguarding: if you nail Wolf with one of them, consider him gimped. It messes up his side b and up b a lot, causing him to fall before he can do them again, and since Wolf is a fastfaller, this is particularly effective.

Indeed. Projectiles like the peanut gun, that don't fly straight are the best tools to gimp Wolf. Please remember, that a scenario like this won't occur too often against Wolf - knocking him off the stage isn't easy or diddy

Diddy's ground game and Wolf's are almost equal in range, except for Wolf's Fsmash. I think the key is to be within Fsmash range, but close enough that it isn't an effective option for Wolf. At this point your Ftilt outranges the majority of his moves, but look out for the SA / disjointedness on the reflector.

This is just false. Wolfs ftilt outranges all of diddys tilt and so does wolfs dtilt and sh bair

Look out for juggling traps: Wolf's Fair and Uair knock you up, and his Utilt and Usmash are great for sending you right back up there. If you're high up enough, you can pull out a banana and double jump to z catch (you can also save the double jump and just use the banana as a defense for your landing). This gives you a lot more options when returning to the ground, as you can drop the banana or throw it down. Your opponent will learn this and probably not stay right below you (though he can reflect, so look out for this). You can still throw the banana down as it will prevent him from moving himself right under you, and you can DI away from your opponent so that the banana is in the way (feel free to fire off a popgun shot or two also). You also have your side b to move yourself horizontally.

Wolf's dthrow is a great setup for him to approach you, so try to space yourself as to not get shield grabbed.

You have a point here, although Wolf doesn't rely on his Shield Grab vs Diddy

10chars

bludhoundz · Aug 27, 2008

No. Wolfs bairs range > diddys fair range. Throwing bananas in the air doesn't work, iirc as the bair cancels it. I could be wrong though. And of course, it can still hit if timed well. I think it's in fact, diddys best option in the air

Wolf's bair might have slightly more range, but it's not incredibly significant. If Diddy throws out a fair, both players will get hit. Bair does not block a thrown banana, though you can catch it. However once you've executed the bair, it can no longer catch bananas.

The blaster does cancel thrown bananas though

I was unaware of this.

Wolf has enough possibilities, against the bananas. He can not only reflect them but also pick them uo with his 0 lag fair. Diddy can beat it but it's range and priority makes it hard to break through

I am not saying Wolf doesn't have options against the bananas. He has one of the best set of options out of most of the characters. However this does not render bananas useless, because with smart play they can still be utilized. Wolf's fair is very good for picking up bananas, but look out for 2 bananas thrown in a row, as you can only hold one at a time.

Indeed. Projectiles like the peanut gun, that don't fly straight are the best tools to gimp Wolf. Please remember, that a scenario like this won't occur too often against Wolf - knocking him off the stage isn't easy or diddy

It's not as hard to get Wolf off the stage as you make it out to be. Diddy's throws send opponents fairly far and if you're already close to the edge it isn't difficult to get Wolf offstage. Also many of Diddy's combos allow him to move his opponent across the stage (even the non-banana combos). Getting opponents offstage is one of Diddy's better qualities, and Wolf is not exempt from this. I would say most of Diddy's kills on Wolf will come from gimping, not so many will come from actually knocking him out of bounds.

This is just false. Wolfs ftilt outranges all of diddys tilt and so does wolfs dtilt and sh bair

I am not currently in possession of a Wii as I am dorming at college, but I'd like to see video proof of this, as I'm not so sure (if I were at home I'd just test it out) or at least get absolute confirmation. Wolf's Ftilt has a lot of range, but Diddy's Ftilt does too, and both their dtilts seem to have a similar range (Diddy can also crawl, making his dtilt much more effective). SH bair can be shielded quite easily, because once Wolf goes into the air you can see it coming.

You have a point here, although Wolf doesn't rely on his Shield Grab vs Diddy.

Maybe not, but it's still best to avoid shield grabs, especially if your opponent has a good throw setup.

Player-1 · Aug 27, 2008

Gheb_01 said:
I already wrote a lot of stuff about Diddy vs. Wolf. Called me biased for being a Wolf mainer but I'm dead certain, that Wolf has a 60:40 advantage vs. Diddy and I can give you lots of reasons...

- Wolf can destroy Diddys banana strategies. Fair picks them up and Shine bounces them back
- Wolf has a better camping game. A high priority prpjectile + Shine >>> Peanut gun
- Diddys best way to deal dmg to Wolf is via combos. On the ground, he needs bananas for it, in the air Wolf's bair outranges Diddy
- Wolf has overall more range
- Wolf is moderately heavy and finishing is diddys biggest weakness
- Diddy lacks disjointed hitboxes. Wolf can counter almost every move of diddy with Shine
- Wolfs Dsmash finishes leightweight Diddy very fast

Vyse basically said, what Diddy can do against Wolf but even if Wolf is gimpable, Diddy has to get him off the stage first. It should also be noted, that Diddy has more priority on most moves.

Shine is pretty simple to get around, glide tossing up or down, or even side b kick. Especially the side b kick.

Jump throwing or glide tossing and taking a hit form the blaster is all it takes to destroy Wolf campers.

Agreed on the bair thing, if done right you can't shield grab his bair either.

Agreed, but that is why diddy has side b and side b kick.

Wolf's finishes are usually easy to see coming, it's just most people don't move for some reason, Wolf's spot dodge is greater than diddy's, but half the diddy's I see (including me sometimes) don't roll out of the way for some reason.

Shine = easy shield grab, i tihnk correct me if I'm wrong.

Ready said 2 reasons back...

Peanut gun owns wolf, I can usually get a peanut gun kill on wolf once every 2 games.Then if you have a banana in your hand it's even easier.

Wolf is fairly easy to pivot drop edgehog.

Wolf isn't as easy to edgeguard as it sounds because they usually side b back as soon as possible, the best way to beat this is to act like you go to edgeguard them, then retreat back and try to predict his side b.

Wolf is easy to combo, and he isn't the heaviest character in the game and can usually die 110-130% 1st stock.

Diddy's ftilt and Wolf's ftilt have the same range, I'm 75% sure, but Wolf's have more priority, I THINK,

Diddy has less lag in most of his attacks, you just have to watch for bair to fsmash or dsmash

Count · Aug 27, 2008

I find wolfs much more annoying online. I think wolf-diddy is even but that is just my opinion, they both have their advantages and disadvantages vs one another..plus, wolf has an extremely long trip animation.

Le_THieN · Aug 27, 2008

There already several things regarding the Wolf match-up that requires clarification:

• Move for move, Wolf’s ground game is better than Diddy’s – period. Wolf’s F-smash outranges and probably also out-prioritizes everything in Diddy’s ground arsenal. The only move that Diddy actually wins out on is his F-tilt against Wolf’s; the Yoga punch has both the range and priority advantage. Other than that, all of Diddy’s smash attacks are significantly more punishable than any of Wolf’s, and even Wolf’s supposedly laggy looking U-smash has frickin’ IASA frames at the end of them that occasionally yields some very annoying trapping consequences. Oh yeah, and Wolf can dash attack cancel into the U-smash.

• With the exception of the spectacularly WoP-able B-air, Diddy has the slight advantage in the air as far as priority and knockout potential goes. Diddy’s fresh U-air kills considerably earlier than a Wolf’s, and Diddy’s F-air and B-air outranges Wolf’s F-air. And – correct me if I’m wrong – Wolf’s N-air only provides knockback and maximum damage (8% without decay) upon immediate activation. Alternatively, Diddy’s N-air causes hit-stun at virtually every frame it is out. Their D-air spikes are kind of negligible to compare since you are very seldom going to be challenging each other by going head to head with this move. For the record, they both seem equivalent in speed and power.

• Contrary to popular belief by Wolf mains, Wolf’s laser does not cancel out bananas or even clang with them. They simply pass through each other.

• Consequently, Wolf’s B-air also does not cancel out or clang with bananas. Every aerial attack in the entire game either automatically catches bananas upon contact, or gets hit by bananas if it’s prematurely activated.

• In an effort to further (re)contain false information, it’s worth mentioning that both of these following statements:

Gheb_01 said:
This is just false. Wolfs ftilt outranges all of diddys tilt and so does wolfs dtilt and sh bair

Player-1 said:
Diddy's ftilt and Wolf's ftilt have the same range, I'm 75% sure, but Wolf's have more priority, I THINK,

…are incorrect. As I previously mentioned in my first point, Diddy’s F-tilt has considerable speed and range advantages of Wolf’s, and consequently lends it more priority. I have just tested this myself (along with everything else I’ve outlined in this post) for verification. It’s also worth noting that this is more or less a moot nuance, because there aren’t going to be very many situations – if any – where you’re going to be able to actually bait Wolf’s F-tilt. He has a couple other approaches that are twice as effective and much more difficult to punish.

I believe that about does it for all of the most disputable aspects of this match-up.

To name a few of Diddy’s specific advantages, the mere presence of a banana in your hand makes it relatively easy to bait a reflector. Due to lack of jump-canceling, there’s significantly more cool-down time every time Wolf is forced to drop his shine, so follow-ups with a banana throw, dash attack or dash grab are completely viable. Also, if you’re forced into a camping game against Wolf’s blaster, it’s usually worth it to eat a laser and glide-toss into it if you are both in throwing range and have two bananas grouped fairly close together. The trade-off of 5% in order to follow up with a banana setup is in your favor.

As far as match-up advantage is concerned, I would give the slight edge to Wolf. The two primary components behind my reasoning lies in Wolf’s shine game (his invincibility frames as well as his ability to interrupt every single move as early as the first five frames has a tendency to abduct any momentum you might have built) and his D-smash (a difficult-to-punish attack that clever Wolf mains will quite literally hold onto this move until around 90%, where it spells instant KO at the edge of virtually any stage). Other things that might elicit a substantial headache are Wolf mains who abuses B-airs in Wall of Pain tactics. The reason why this is effective is because of Wolf’s swift aerial movement: he moves through the air in both vertical and horizontal directions much quicker than Diddy can, although his heavy weight makes for some stiff DI.

Even with these advantages stacked against Diddy though, smart play will seldom result in you being blown out, and an equal balance between the banana rush and agile and deliberate ground pressure will always yield more favorable outcomes than you otherwise would get by just trying to power through this blaster.

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 27, 2008

Comments in red

Le_THieN said:
There already several things regarding the Wolf match-up that requires clarification:

• Move for move, Wolf’s ground game is better than Diddy’s – period. Wolf’s F-smash outranges and probably also out-prioritizes everything in Diddy’s ground arsenal. The only move that Diddy actually wins out on is his F-tilt against Wolf’s; the Yoga punch has both the range and priority advantage. Other than that, all of Diddy’s smash attacks are significantly more punishable than any of Wolf’s, and even Wolf’s supposedly laggy looking U-smash has frickin’ IASA frames at the end of them that occasionally yields some very annoying trapping consequences. Oh yeah, and Wolf can dash attack cancel into the U-smash.

Well...Wolf perhaps won't use Dacus against Diddy, since the bananas will be in his way. And yes you're right. Diddys ftilt > Wolfs ftilt

• With the exception of the spectacularly WoP-able B-air, Diddy has the slight advantage in the air as far as priority and knockout potential goes. Diddy’s fresh U-air kills considerably earlier than a Wolf’s, and Diddy’s F-air and B-air outranges Wolf’s F-air. And – correct me if I’m wrong – Wolf’s N-air only provides knockback and maximum damage (8% without decay) upon immediate activation. Alternatively, Diddy’s N-air causes hit-stun at virtually every frame it is out. Their D-air spikes are kind of negligible to compare since you are very seldom going to be challenging each other by going head to head with this move. For the record, they both seem equivalent in speed and power.

Of course you can just compare every single move. But as you see yourself, Diddy has no eal answer to bair. Wolf won't use many other moves in the air, 'cept the occasional 0 lag fair

• Contrary to popular belief by Wolf mains, Wolf’s laser does not cancel out bananas or even clang with them. They simply pass through each other.

True

• Consequently, Wolf’s B-air also does not cancel out or clang with bananas. Every aerial attack in the entire game either automatically catches bananas upon contact, or gets hit by bananas if it’s prematurely activated.

Yes, that's also true

• In an effort to further (re)contain false information, it’s worth mentioning that both of these following statements:

…are incorrect. As I previously mentioned in my first point, Diddy’s F-tilt has considerable speed and range advantages of Wolf’s, and consequently lends it more priority. I have just tested this myself (along with everything else I’ve outlined in this post) for verification. It’s also worth noting that this is more or less a moot nuance, because there aren’t going to be very many situations – if any – where you’re going to be able to actually bait Wolf’s F-tilt. He has a couple other approaches that are twice as effective and much more difficult to punish.

Wolf's approaches are rather poor. His standard tactic is to force the enemy to approach

I believe that about does it for all of the most disputable aspects of this match-up.

To name a few of Diddy’s specific advantages, the mere presence of a banana in your hand makes it relatively easy to bait a reflector. Due to lack of jump-canceling, there’s significantly more cool-down time every time Wolf is forced to drop his shine, so follow-ups with a banana throw, dash attack or dash grab are completely viable.

Yes, that's true. But as I said already twice Wolf doesn't only have Shine against bananas but also fair

Also, if you’re forced into a camping game against Wolf’s blaster, it’s usually worth it to eat a laser and glide-toss into it if you are both in throwing range and have two bananas grouped fairly close together. The trade-off of 5% in order to follow up with a banana setup is in your favor.

That's intersting...I...don't have an answer to this yet. I've never seen that before...

As far as match-up advantage is concerned, I would give the slight edge to Wolf. The two primary components behind my reasoning lies in Wolf’s shine game (his invincibility frames as well as his ability to interrupt every single move as early as the first five frames has a tendency to abduct any momentum you might have built) and his D-smash (a difficult-to-punish attack that clever Wolf mains will quite literally hold onto this move until around 90%, where it spells instant KO at the edge of virtually any stage). Other things that might elicit a substantial headache are Wolf mains who abuses B-airs in Wall of Pain tactics. The reason why this is effective is because of Wolf’s swift aerial movement: he moves through the air in both vertical and horizontal directions much quicker than Diddy can, although his heavy weight makes for some stiff DI.

Agree'd

Even with these advantages stacked against Diddy though, smart play will seldom result in you being blown out, and an equal balance between the banana rush and agile and deliberate ground pressure will always yield more favorable outcomes than you otherwise would get by just trying to power through this blaster.

Agree'd too. 60:40 isn't something Diddy can't win

DanGR · Aug 27, 2008

I only quoted the OP guys. Notice the parentheses. >_> I was just wondering which way was it? Yoshi's priority>Diddy's? Or Diddy's priority>Yoshi's? lol

Mmac · Aug 27, 2008

DanGR said:
I only quoted the OP guys. Notice the parentheses. >_> I was just wondering which way was it? Yoshi's priority>Diddy's? Or Diddy's priority>Yoshi's? lol

It's Equal, but Yoshi has more range in his Bair/Uair, and has a longer reaching Nair compared to Diddy's

Martial · Aug 27, 2008

Mmac said:
It's Equal, but Yoshi has more range in his Bair/Uair, and has a longer reaching Nair compared to Diddy's

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't Diddy's Fair outrange all of those?

Mmac · Aug 27, 2008

I've never been beaten by an Fair though..... :dizzy:

Then I guess Yoshi does have more priority >_>

Bwett · Aug 27, 2008

Mmac said:
I still don't know why Bwett as good as he is still chooses to do it classic, but he would improve the use twice as much if he learn how to do it.

Cuz I'm Old Skool, son! Nah, know how to do it, just haven't incorporated it yet

ty for compliment btw

Nitrix · Aug 27, 2008

Diddy vs Wolf is a game of spacing and predictability. Wolf's f-smash in this matchup is a double-edged sword due to the fact that it can deal good damage, but it can also slide him right into some bananas. In this matchup Diddy will probably have to approach due to Wolf's reflector and gun, but that isn't very hard. When approaching Wolf, he will either be using his reflector or shooting his gun. If he is using the gun you need to be using your bananas against him to either make him slip or force him into reflector-mode. If you don't have any Bananas, you still could DI-properly and charge in during intervals with a cartwheel. When he is using his Reflector you have 2 choices, the cartwheel or the side-b. If you have a smart Wolf, he will probably try to catch you with a smash though, so you must be careful! The one advantage of the side-b is that you can avoid his d-smash if he goes for it.

If Wolf tries to approach you, watch for the B-Airs. Alot of Wolfs are now trying to use their air-game more, and their B-Air has little lag and can set them up for a nasty f-smash. Also, wath out for the F-Air when you're at high-percents because it can kill. As for how Diddy can counter Wolf's B-Air, well I don't really know. Diddy just has to play smart and not let Wolf capitalize on it.

Lastly, Wolf's reflector. That thing is the shiznit. It is as quick as lightning and zaps Diddy in close combat. This is really bad for Diddy because Diddy is a momentum character, and a Diddy without combos is like jam without peanut butter! It just doesn't work. Instead, Diddy should be darting in and out in terms of combat. Staying close against a Wolf rarely works.

Diddy's one advantage against Wolf imo, is edgeguarding. Wolf seems to have some nasty tricks in the air, but alot of them are hard to implement. Wolf's meteor smash is an example of this. Wolf does have an F-Air though, so you have to be ready to air-dodge it. In terms of edgeguarding Wolf, try to use the side-B gimp. With his recovery he will pretty much die if you land it. Plus, remember to use your bananas on the edge! Those are key.

Overall, Diddy is going to have a very tricky time against a good Wolf. However if Diddy can get Wolf on the edge, avoid his reflector and space well, he has a chance.

Le_THieN · Aug 28, 2008

Not to step on anybody's toes, but does anyone else think that the match-up descriptions on the first post of this thread are both inaccurate and an eyesore to read? I was just skimming through the organization of some of the other character forums' match-up thread formats, and I like most of their layouts much better. Are you open to formatting suggestions, Vyse?

Mmac · Aug 28, 2008

I like the common style, just having a simple list in order of alphabetical or Best to Worst, then have descriptions as of why Below

Vyse · Aug 28, 2008

Le_THieN said:
Not to step on anybody's toes, but does anyone else think that the match-up descriptions on the first post of this thread are both inaccurate and an eyesore to read? I was just skimming through the organization of some of the other character forums' match-up thread formats, and I like most of their layouts much better. Are you open to formatting suggestions, Vyse?

I'm very open to formatting suggestions

At the very least, we have a matchup thread.
I agree that there must be a time when we need to make it better.
And hopefully sooner rather than later.

It's hard to keep up with everything I'm managing at the moment (This thread, tech/video thread, Advanced AT thread, Australia's Emailing List and E-Newsletter).

Every suggestion, every piece of advice and every idea won't fall on deaf ears.
I need all the help I can get.

EDIT:
What I think I'll try doing is, taking 3 well explained opinions on the matchup, using one as the matchup description, and linking the others.

chronoize · Aug 28, 2008

I'm a wolf main, so i think i can help yall out XD.
a smart diddy player > any wolf.

you you play smart with your bananas you will give any wolf a hard time. As yall know a wolf main loves 3 moves. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair. you get any wolf to panic you'll see a bunch of these, mostly the smashes. Fsmash has a lot of lag afterward so make sure you punish him afterward, always remember the fsmash is usually 2 hits depending on the spacing. With Dsmash try to make him decay it.

The one thing i regret going against la_thein was i was to worried about using his bananas against him. On paper it sounds amazing, reflector, and DACUS. in reality it isn't. reflector is good, but any Diddy can just pick it up using a dash attack and since there's no lag afterwords a wolf can't punish to harshly. In the wolf community DACUS is a hard AT to master, especially. on command. Keep in mind that some wolf players use their reflector as a offensive attack. for example if a wolf sees you charging up a smash or your really close to him he'll use reflector to knock you out of the smash and stun you to get a free hit. usually a fsmash or dsmash.

Take advantage of wolf's poor recovery, wolf could be one of the easiest character to gimp. Keep in mind that wolf can meteor you with his illusion. Any good wolf player will wait for you to follow him off the ledge so he can sweetspot you. As long as you know the distance and spacing, you should be ok.

Against diddy, wolfs strategy probably lies in the air game. 0-lag fair, and b-air are sadly the only options, maybe a little laser in the mix. The Wall of pain can get pretty predictable, and usually in a certain pattern. because diddy is a small character wolf can just sh-bair, he usually sh-waits a lil-bair. fair can be unpredictable sometimes and a easy combo starter.

some quick notes
-wolf can scar on most stages, just assume he can scar on every stage except FD. There's a considerable lag after it though so punish em.
-with proper spacing wolf wont be able to jab combo you.
-Shield grab can be used on jab combo, f-tilt.
-For some reason some wolfs attack with fire-wolf, that can also be shield grabbed.
-Wolfs means of spacing is d-tilt, lasers, b-air, backwards momentum f-air, and f-tilt (you want wolf to do f-tilt cause it has considerable lag between each hit.)
-f-tilt, f-smash, u-smash has 2 consecutive hits.
-wolf has very limited ledge games, should be easy to predict.

so in summary
-control the stage (bananas)
-be patient wait for wolf to make a mistake (f-smash,f-tilt, f-air, u-smash)
-edge guard

I hope this helps

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 28, 2008

Are you really a Wolf mainer?

chronoize said:
I'm a wolf main, so i think i can help yall out XD.
a smart diddy player > any wolf.

A smart Diddy > the world. But smartness = players skill =/= Match-UP!!!!!!
Oh and a well spacing Wolf > A smart diddy

you you play smart with your bananas you will give any wolf a hard time. As yall know a wolf main loves 3 moves. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair.

I can't believe to hear that from a wolf mainer! Fsmash? Only for punihing! Dsmash? Only to finish. Bair is spot on but you don't even mention dthrow, 0 lag fair, blaster, shine, ...

you get any wolf to panic you'll see a bunch of these, mostly the smashes. Fsmash has a lot of lag afterward so make sure you punish him afterward, always remember the fsmash is usually 2 hits depending on the spacing.

A good wolf doesn't "spam" Fsmash (watch GERM, Candy, etc)

With Dsmash try to make him decay it.

*Sigh* That dosn't work just like that. You talk as if all Wolf players were no-brainers

The one thing i regret going against la_thein was i was to worried about using his bananas against him. On paper it sounds amazing, reflector, and DACUS. in reality it isn't. reflector is good, but any Diddy can just pick it up using a dash attack and since there's no lag afterwords a wolf can't punish to harshly.

Why does nobody, except me, mention the fact, that his fair - one of his best moves vs. Diddy picks bananas up?

In the wolf community DACUS is a hard AT to master, especially.

Nobody,...NOBODY uses DACUS against Diddy

on command. Keep in mind that some wolf players use their reflector as a offensive attack. for example if a wolf sees you charging up a smash or your really close to him he'll use reflector to knock you out of the smash and stun you to get a free hit. usually a fsmash or dsmash.

Yes, and why don't you mention, how well it works vs Diddy

Take advantage of wolf's poor recovery, wolf could be one of the easiest character to gimp.

Not really. Diddy hasn't an easy time to get Wolf off the stage in the first place. And the only thing, that can actually "gimp" wolfs recovery is the peanut gun.

Keep in mind that wolf can meteor you with his illusion. Any good wolf player will wait for you to follow him off the ledge so he can sweetspot you. As long as you know the distance and spacing, you should be ok.

Against diddy, wolfs strategy probably lies in the air game.

Why?

0-lag fair, and b-air are sadly the only options, maybe a little laser in the mix.

How does diddy beat bair at all?

The Wall of pain can get pretty predictable, and usually in a certain pattern.

It isn't meant to be unpredictable. It's meant to desatroy approaches and that's just what it does vs. Diddy

because diddy is a small character wolf can just sh-bair, he usually sh-waits a lil-bair. fair can be unpredictable sometimes and a easy combo starter.

some quick notes
-wolf can scar on most stages, just assume he can scar on every stage except FD. There's a considerable lag after it though so punish em.
-with proper spacing wolf wont be able to jab combo you.

lolwut?

-Shield grab can be used on jab combo, f-tilt.

No. At least not against a well spaced ftilt

-For some reason some wolfs attack with fire-wolf, that can also be shield grabbed.

We assume the Wolf not to be dump like a stone -_-

-Wolfs means of spacing is d-tilt, lasers, b-air, backwards momentum f-air, and f-tilt (you want wolf to do f-tilt cause it has considerable lag between each hit.)
-f-tilt, f-smash, u-smash has 2 consecutive hits.
-wolf has very limited ledge games, should be easy to predict.

so in summary
-control the stage (bananas)
-be patient wait for wolf to make a mistake (f-smash,f-tilt, f-air, u-smash)
-edge guard

This is not a "tactic" to beat Wolf as it works against every character and is basically, what Brawl is based on - camping, waiting for mistakes and punishing

I hope this helps

Sorry if I seem to be overly aggresive but I know that match-up by heart and I know a lot about it.

Le_THieN · Aug 28, 2008

I didn’t really pay it any mind before because I just thought it was a part of your argumentative style, but you really do have a tendency to nitpick at minor quibbles, Gheb. There’s a firm difference between responding to an opponent’s argument as fully and comprehensively as possible; versus extracting every single one of their points, divorcing them from the original context and then proceeding to blast it. Besides the fact that it’s difficult to read, it’s also difficult to properly react to because the person who made the original argument has to go back and piece together the original context of his points. This makes it discouraging to reply to for all the wrong reasons, and not necessarily because you made an infallible point that can’t be countered.

The points that I made in favor of Wolf’s strengths and the points Shuz (Chronoize) made in favor of Diddy’s strengths are things that are in place for either characters to take advantage of in this particular match-up in order to get the upper hand. Shuz isn’t necessarily saying that bananas are going to singlehandedly win the match for Diddy, and I am certainly not saying that Wall-of-Paining B-airs spells auto-win for Wolf. We’re merely directing attention to these relatively small components of the match-up that may eventually contribute to one character’s success in the match at the end of the day, as opposed to claiming that this or that technique will always give a particular character the upper hand.

We’re just making concessions about the positive strengths that our respective mains have in the match-up. Shuz and I had a particularly grueling semifinals face-off at a recent bi-weekly tournament, and all we’re doing here is admitting that certain advantages both characters have can lead to the imminent defeat of one another. You, on the other hand, seem to refuse to make any concessions, especially as evidenced by the following:

Gheb_01 said:
Sorry if I seem to be overly aggresive but I know that match-up by heart and I know a lot about it.

With the way your opinion about this match-up has developed over the course of the last couple of days, you sound like you’re confident that you’re able to beat Diddy 100% of the time. I acknowledge that you may very well have a deep understanding of this match-up, but I don’t know how I feel about standing by giving Wolf the nod to having the slight overall advantage in this match-up while you cast the impression that Diddy has nothing on Wolf.

saberhof · Aug 28, 2008

Easy match up for Diddy, grabs are essential here if he tries to go in, also Wop's are easy to detect, diddy can run and shield the second Bair and go for the grab, all wolf's are aggressive in my book...he may not be that easy to edge-guard but you can still do it :D...

Bananas should be left on floor or carry one around, he will attempt to shine these, i am pretty sure they will, they do not have another option besides rolling or jumping...

its a tedious match, but it can be won :D

~ Gheb ~ · Aug 28, 2008

I didn't say, that diddy has nothing on Wolf. Read my first post, that deals with the match-up. I cleary responded to vyse's statements about the match-up and agree'd on the things, that Diddy has against Wolf.
I also said, that Diddy can win this battle and that it's only 60:40. I just wanted to point out Wolfs advantages, since I assume, that Diddy players already knows Diddys strength. I won't change my mind on this match-up either: It's 60:40 for Wolf and yes, Diddy can win this match, there is no opponent a smart diddy can't defeat but Wolfs advantages are either more useful overall or are more easy to execute in a battle.

bludhoundz · Aug 28, 2008

While you are right about some things, I cannot stress this enough. Wolf is NOT super difficult to get off the stage. You make it sound like he's impossible to get off the stage and gimp. This is simply false.

He is not necessarily EASY to get off the stage, but there's nothing that makes him really hard to get off stage either. Also his recovery is quite predictable: the Side B always has the same trajectory, and as soon as Wolf activates his Up B all diddy has to do is get in the way of the ledge and perform practically any aerial, as they all outprioritize Wolf's Up B.

On stage, Wolf definitely has an advantage. But once it comes to an offstage fight, Diddy has a clear advantage, one which I would go so far as to say is greater than the advantage Wolf has over Diddy onstage (however most of the fight occurs onstage, so this doesn't mean Diddy has an advantage in the matchup). I would say the matchup is 55-45 in Wolf's favor.

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