Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Locke 06]

Note: The Weekly Match Up thread has been moved here, please use this thread for general match up Q&A.

Matchups were born in MegaMan. Before there was Pokémon's "super effective," there was Rolling Cutter vs Elec Man. MegaMan has a wide array of tools. The trick is knowing when to use them.
This will be a place for focused discussion of Mega Man's strengths and weaknesses against the characters of Super Smash Bros. 3DS/ Wii U. This is a new game, so keep in mind that the strengths and weaknesses of characters are not fully understood. This is especially true for Mega Man, as he is a completely new character, one with a moveset that is unlike any Smash has ever seen.

This character roster is 52 (soon to be 53) characters large, with customs that can change how the matchups are played. Keep this in mind as we move forward. Matchups will change as strategies emerge, and characters will be revisited in time.

Spoiler: Original OP Info

Information Wanted: How to contribute to this discussion? Post anything you think you find useful in the matchups that are being discussed. Any experience is experience and all input is welcome. Feel free to disagree with anything anyone posts, but please be ready and willing to explain and discuss everything that you post. We want posts with substance and reasoning, rather than "Mega Man wins" or "Down B > Projectiles." Video evidence is greatly appreciated.

Specifically, the following are suggested subtopics of conversation:

Spoiler: Original OP Info

• 
  
  
  • Character strengths and weaknesses
  • How to effectively approach/deter approaches
  • Off-stage game
  • Positional play
  • Punishes/punishing
  • Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters
  • Suggested custom movesets
  • Stage strengths and weaknesses
  • Overall score

General Rules: No flaming, please, from either side of the discussion spectrum. Everyone enjoys their own character and has varying degrees of experience. We will have people from different character sub-forums joining in on the discussion. Let them feel welcome.
Important rules:

- When discussing match-ups we must assume that both players are playing each character to their utmost potential always. (This also means without lag)
- To keep this clean, please use this thread for off-topic matchup discussion. We want this thread to be easy to navigate with focused topics. Relevant posts from the off-topic matchup discussion thread will be quoted at the beginning of each discussion.​

Format: The OP will be updated to summarize the matchup and will include the following:

• 
  
  
  • First & last post of the discussion
  • Quoted posts/videos of interest
  • Summary of what was discussed
  • Specific moves/strings that are strong for both characters (and counterplays)
  • Suggested Custom Movesets
  • Stage Strengths and Weaknesses
  • Overall Score

The overall score will be based on a score of 100. We will mostly use multiples of 5. The number on the left will represent Mega Man, the number on the right the current match-up opponent in discussion. For example, let's say that we have a favorable match-up against Mewtwo, we would say 70-30 if its solidly in Mega Man's advantage. 90-10 would be a virtually unwinnable matchup. 80-20 is a strong "hard counter". 70-30 is a solid advantage (expected to win, but not unheard of to lose). 60-40 would be for an advantage. 50-50 would be neutral. And then it switches sides. Green will indicate an advantage while red is disadvantage for Mega Man. The lighter the color, the more intense the advantage/disadvantage.

Data Submission: If you plan to contribute in a more precise and effective form, please include links highlighting any information or videos that back up your data. As a consequence, those posts will have more weight. Please refrain from embedding videos.

Original Post updates: I will update the original post… lol we’ll see. If anyone wants to help me with updating it, I’d definitely appreciate it. At the very least, I’d like to do it every month… but it might be every other month? :/ Depends on how I’m feeling about this. I will keep up facilitating discussion. That’s not too hard. If I don’t, then something’s wrong with me and the mega man community should change subjects and take charge until I get back from whatever I’m doing.

Table of Match-Ups:

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?.? | ?:? | ?.? | ?: ? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 52.5:47.5?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?.? | ?:? | ?.? | ?:? | ?: ? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?.? | ?.? | ?: ? | ?:? | ?:? | ?: ? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?. ?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?.? | ?:? | ?:? | ?: ? | ?.? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?.?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?.? | 55: 45 | ?:? | ?:? | ?.? | ?:? | ?:? | ?.? | ?:? |?:?

| |
| ?.?

​

Schedule: I will use the general MU thread as well as just the general pulse of the Mega Man boards to choose discussion topics. If you want a certain topic discussed in the next discussion period, PM me and we can plan things out. The following is the schedule of previous topics and planned out future topics

• Discussion period 1: 12/9-12/24
  [*]Discussion period 2: 12/24-12/30
  [*]Discussion period 3: Recap of old MU's () 12/30-1/4
  [*]Discussion period 4: 1/4-1/11
  [*]Discussion period 5: 1/11-1/18
  [*]Discussion period 6: 1/18-1/23
  [*]Discussion period 7: 1/23-1/28
  [*]Discussion period 8: 1/28-2/7
  [*]Discussion period 9: 2/7-2/16
  [*]Discussion period 10: 2/16-2/22
  [*]Discussion period 11: 2/22-2/26
  [*]Discussion period 12: 2/26-3/4
  [*]Discussion period 13: 3/6-3/12
  [*]Discussion period 14: 3/13-1/18
  [*]Discussion period 15: 3/18-3/22
  [*]Discussion period 16: 3/22-3/27
  [*]Discussion period 17: 3/27-3/30
  [*]Discussion period 18: 3/30-4/3
  [*]Discussion period 19: Free Discussion 4/3-4/9
  [*]--1.0.6. Patch! 4/9
  [*]Discussion period 20: 4/9-?

Diddy

First post & Last post
Zucco v ADHD - Tournament set Mega Man v Diddy
Scatt v Player-1 - Tournament set Mega Man v Diddy

Shulk
First post & Last post
Seperate thread from our forum

Mario
First post & Last post - pre-1.0.4 3DS (with rush canceling and vectoring)
First post & Last post - Post-1.0.4 3DS (without rush canceling and vectoring) and Wii U.

Yoshi
First post & Last post pre-1.0.4
First post & Last post pre-1.0.6.

ZSS
First post & Last post Pre - 1.0.4
First post & Last post pre-1.0.6.



Mega Man
First post & Last post

Sheik
First post & Last post


Sonic
First post & Last post

Falcon
First post & Last post

Ness
First post & Last post

Luigi - prepatch

First post & Last post

Game & Watch
First post & Last post

Wario
First post & Last post

Link
First post & Last post

Samus
First post & Last post


ROB
First post & Last post

Bowser Jr.
First post & Last post

Bowser

First post & Last post


Fox
First post & Last post

Villager
First post & Last post


DK
First post

 

[Z1GMA]

When will this start?

 

[Locke 06]

I kind of thought it'd be an ongoing thing... I have to run some errands, and then I could be back in 30 minutes if you want to do some testing or discussing. Something to start, I just faced a very good (but spammy) pikachu. Lemons are kind of an unreliable answer to them, because the thunder jolts sneak underneath them every once and a while. I ended up deciding to start trading fsmash with thunder jolt, but it was still close.

Edit: well, now my internet is down for the next few days, so no WiFi for Smash...

 

[BBC7]

For starters, Crash Bomb is almost always guaranteed to stick onto a Fox that is using Neutral B(lasers). The Crash Bomb bypasses the lasers with ease and Fox will suffer from lag that will render him unable to react to the Crash Bomb if he shoots too many lasers. This is as important part of fighting Fox since you can sneak in damage if they're not going out of their way to ensure maximum safety.

 

[Knight Dude]

I haven't gone online yet. But from what I've played against the computer, I think the Top Spin is an effective way to get past Palutena's Projectiles. The Slide Kick works too, but I find the Top Spin to be a some what safer option.

The only thing I can say about Mega Man fighting Dr. Mario is the go for horizontal K.O.s. Because I've had quite a few times where a well-timed Charge Shot will send him flying, but he's too far for the Super Jump Punch to make much of a difference.

I think applies to Little Mac as well, horizontal is the way to go for them. Since they have less than stellar recovery.

I noticed Rosalina was a bit more susceptible to the Spark Needle Smash than the Charge shot. But when you do fight Rosalina, it might be a good idea for Mega Man players to separate her from her Lumas. I've had quite a few times where she'll be saved by a Luma tanking the Charge Shot.

Yoshi might be a bit easier to stuff when using the Mega Buster. But I only fought him once.

 

[Locke 06]

Something I remembered seeing yesterday. The 3 blasts from the crash bomb can fill a Game & Watch's oil barrel. Unsure if it works if you stick it on their back though.

 

[SSGuy]

I have a lot of information regarding the Oimar MU. I can provide you a full write up in the near future.

 

[Locke 06]

How do we feel about focusing this a little more to get started? We can make one character a focus for a period of time and switch when we feel we understand the matchup pretty well?

 

[BBC7]

I want to start off with the original 12 because they're the ones we'll have an easier time understanding. We should get into more complicated match-ups as the metagame evolves so that we have a better idea of what the new characters are capable of.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

If you're gonna start with the original 12 I'm really curious on how the discussion on Mario will go. Of the original 12 I feel he gives Mega Man the most stress.

--

Though that could be because I keep facing great Mario mains more than anything else.

 

[passworddots]

If you're gonna start with the original 12 I'm really curious on how the discussion on Mario will go. Of the original 12 I feel he gives Mega Man the most stress.

In the demo, he was always the hardest to beat with Mega Man; when he flicks that Hard Knuckle back in my face...

 

[Charlz]

For starters, Crash Bomb is almost always guaranteed to stick onto a Fox that is using Neutral B(lasers). The Crash Bomb bypasses the lasers with ease and Fox will suffer from lag that will render him unable to react to the Crash Bomb if he shoots too many lasers. This is as important part of fighting Fox since you can sneak in damage if they're not going out of their way to ensure maximum safety.

I'm still pretty new to Smash (though I live in Japan, so I've been playing for about a month), so I'm curious about countering Fox and similar characters. How do you deal with the reflector? For me, so much of my game revolves around projectiles, and Fox makes this totally useless. Then I end up trying to melee, and get eaten up by lasers when I try to approach him. Any advice? I have (somewhat) similar problems with Palatena as well.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm still pretty new to Smash (though I live in Japan, so I've been playing for about a month), so I'm curious about countering Fox and similar characters. How do you deal with the reflector? For me, so much of my game revolves around projectiles, and Fox makes this totally useless. Then I end up trying to melee, and get eaten up by lasers when I try to approach him. Any advice? I have (somewhat) similar problems with Palatena as well.

First off, welcome to the boards. (I'm relatively new to SmashBoards as well).
Second, I haven't really found reflectors to be that much of an issue. Being patient and staying "mid-range" which I like to define as out of "melee" range and closer than long range where Fox's (and similar characters') lasers/projectiles can be punished. At this range, MegaMan's pellets really do work and if your opponent breaks out their reflector, you can hit them with a dash attack or grab. The stun on pellets is small enough that even if you get yours reflected, you can likely still punish.

Edit: Also, when dealing with other characters with other projectiles (Samus, Link, Pikachu, Greninja, etc). Your pellets can cancel out their uncharged projectiles. If you're in range for your pellets to hit, they won't have time to charge their projectile so that they can go through pellets and hit you (in Samus or Greninja's case).

Hopefully that helps. I had a tough time with a recent Palutena matchup, but the reflector was a non-issue (more her range on her attacks)

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I'm still pretty new to Smash (though I live in Japan, so I've been playing for about a month), so I'm curious about countering Fox and similar characters. How do you deal with the reflector? For me, so much of my game revolves around projectiles, and Fox makes this totally useless. Then I end up trying to melee, and get eaten up by lasers when I try to approach him. Any advice? I have (somewhat) similar problems with Palatena as well.

Play at mid range while zoning. Like at the exact edge of pellet range. He wont lazer because you're too close. Also any bad reflectors will be easily punished. From there you kinda just need to learn how to deal with fox's mid range game. I'm not sure how good it is because the only good fox i played was on for glory so that's not saying much.

 

[Valzy]

I feel like Mega Man vs. Ganondorf is in Mega Man's favor. Can't give any real advice except to prevent him from landing an attack on you.

 

[Knight Dude]

I think I need to be less Smash happy with Mega Man. Because I'm not good at baiting another person's reflector yet. I'm not exactly sure what I want to do when it comes to getting better. It's not like I plan on going pro. I just want to be a little better.

 

[BBC7]

Does anyone know how to fight Toon Link? That match-up always gets me. You try to approach with pellets, they do no damage if Toon Link just stands. You try to approach from above with Fair, you eat a boomerang to the face or maybe even a bomb. If they roll away from your attack, they'll grab you and Bair which seems to be a kill move. (I've been killed by it at around 110% at the edge). Forward Smash slaughters you if you're not ready to Rush Cancel. Metal Blade stales out before it can really do anything significant. I know I'm making it seem like an impossible match-up, but it really does feel that way to me the majority of the time.

Although it's probably not that hard and I'm just a sucker. 4 games and I still don't know how to fight Link.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Does anyone know how to fight Toon Link? That match-up always gets me. You try to approach with pellets, they do no damage if Toon Link just stands. You try to approach from above with Fair, you eat a boomerang to the face or maybe even a bomb. If they roll away from your attack, they'll grab you and Bair which seems to be a kill move. (I've been killed by it at around 110% at the edge). Forward Smash slaughters you if you're not ready to Rush Cancel. Metal Blade stales out before it can really do anything significant. I know I'm making it seem like an impossible match-up, but it really does feel that way to me the majority of the time.

Although it's probably not that hard and I'm just a sucker. 4 games and I still don't know how to fight Link.

Maybe you should try using Dtilt & dash attack ? Since I haven't met any Toon Link yet, I can't tell you how to handle him.
Just take him as a regular Link for now, then try to improvise.

 

[Locke 06]

Does anyone know how to fight Toon Link? That match-up always gets me. You try to approach with pellets, they do no damage if Toon Link just stands. You try to approach from above with Fair, you eat a boomerang to the face or maybe even a bomb. If they roll away from your attack, they'll grab you and Bair which seems to be a kill move. (I've been killed by it at around 110% at the edge). Forward Smash slaughters you if you're not ready to Rush Cancel. Metal Blade stales out before it can really do anything significant. I know I'm making it seem like an impossible match-up, but it really does feel that way to me the majority of the time.

Although it's probably not that hard and I'm just a sucker. 4 games and I still don't know how to fight Link.

Do you have the same problem with regular Link? I haven't played a lot of Toon Links. For both of them, don't get discouraged by their Hylian Shields. Very rarely does a walking Link pose that much of a threat to you when you can just hop away a little bit. Pellets cancel out boomerangs & arrows and stop most of their approach options. Bombs are the answer for Links (Normal Link is one of my more played characters) as they eat up pellets. I think your Bair has more range than TL's aerials (not sure), so you can try and approach that way.

Basically... if you're getting out-ranged by Link, just use pellets to close the gap to mid-range. If you want to go in, I'd suggest some short hop aerials, Dtilt, dash attack, and metal blades. Then weave in and out between close & mid-range. Just about all of Link's moves are punishable at close-range if they miss.

If you want, I can play some TL/Link for some experience.

 

[Locke 06]

I think I need to be less Smash happy with Mega Man. Because I'm not good at baiting another person's reflector yet. I'm not exactly sure what I want to do when it comes to getting better. It's not like I plan on going pro. I just want to be a little better.

Save some of your replays, look at what you could've done differently, adjust, and play more. That's pretty much what people will tell you. Unless you want to get technically good, in which case training mode is there.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Anyone got any true insight on the Mario match up I am all ears.

 

[Locke 06]

Let's get some other people involved in the discussion.
I think having the first actual discussion be Mario makes a lot of sense and it seems like it's one that is wanted.

 

[BBC7]

Is it just me, or is Ike's Jab Combo too tight to hitstun cancel out of? I tried it numerous times against an Ike player online(it could've just been minor online latency) and he ended up just cheesing me out with Ike's Jab Combo. I still beat him 2-1, but I hadn't realized that maybe I shouldn't be in Jab range. I really did think that I could Rush Cancel out of Jabs, but I couldn't and that's what lead to that 1 loss I had.

 

[BBC7]

Let's get some other people involved in the discussion.
I think having the first actual discussion be Mario makes a lot of sense and it seems like it's one that is wanted.

Original 12 makes the most sense IMO, and everyone knows how Mario should work by now. It's been 15 years that he's been smashing, it only makes sense that we should once again figure out the old dog's tricks.

 

[Valzy]

Mario's cape is a problem since it can reflect Mega Man's Metal Blade, Crash Bomber, Leaf Shield, and Forward Smash

 

[ADAPT Chance]

^Reflects U-Air, D-Air as well.

Mario makes Mega Man's life hell.

 

[Locke 06]

How can we punish/bait the cape?

 

[dduck72]

Mario's cape can deflect Mega's F-Smash? Dang... Most Mario's that I've fought in For Glory never really used the cape, probably because they haven't really seen much of a use for it. As a former Mario main, I think it may be best to possibly try to get Mario into the air, because it's a little harder to use the cape in the air. But Mario's also has a pretty good air game, so it's kind of a double edged sword. It may also be good to try to use more of up close attacks on him, since projectiles are just going to be deflected back.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

Truth be told I'd rather Mario approach on the ground than the air, even shutting down his air approach is hard.

He can stop our diagonal MB's with his fireball and throw another one before we can. It looks like we can't really much on Metal Blade or Crash Bomber to save us. Pellets help but we have to really get a good read on Mario to shut down is approach with grounded and neutral-air pellets.

His D-air and N-air can create a lot of pressure on us really fast and he can catch MB's while doing D-air and sent it back at us (not sure about N-air).

 

[dduck72]

I don't think he can catch MB's with N-air. The thing is I normally run into two types of Marios, the ones who stick to the ground, and the ones who prefer the air. For the ground, dash attacks, slides, and u-tilts may help, but Mario's smash attacks are something to beware of, especially his f-smash.

 

[BBC7]

The best I can say is space yourself, anticipate, and mix up your projectiles. What I'd do is throw out pellets so that you can check how Mario reacts to them. If he's hopelessly throwing out Fireballs and trying to get them in there, chances are that they will continue to do that throughout the game. If he gets annoyed and tries an aerial approach, you can try to beat it or trade with U-Smash. If he tries to roll behind you, then try to stay away from him as much as possible. Doing this may also trick him into thinking his cape has no use in the fight, so you can throw in Metal Blades or Crash Bombs to check his cape usage as well. I wouldn't use charged F-Smash though, it's way too choreographed and predictable. I heard that uncharged F-Smash cannot be reflected if used from a far enough range, but I don't know if this is true.

 

[Locke 06]

Are you talking about approaches w/utilt? I think utilt should be saved strictly as a punish. To shut down aerial approaches, back air has a lot of range and Mario's air game is pretty close quarters.

In response to the uncharged fsmash reflection, I think the idea is that if spaced correctly, even if it's reflected it will disappear before it hits you. (Needs testing)

 

[ADAPT Chance]

F-Air is good if you catch him right before he can get much momentum towards in the air.

I agree with Locke that B-Air has a lot of range and should be used to out poke Mario and depending on % to kill him.

I believe Mario currently is one of Mega Man's top 5 hardest match ups in this game (could change in the future).

 

[BBC7]

Are you talking about approaches w/utilt? I think utilt should be saved strictly as a punish. To shut down aerial approaches, back air has a lot of range and Mario's air game is pretty close quarters.

In response to the uncharged fsmash reflection, I think the idea is that if spaced correctly, even if it's reflected it will disappear before it hits you. (Needs testing)

Just tested it, it seems to be untrue. At least while Mario is on the ground.

 

[BBC7]

How about my idea of using Pellets to check Mario? Does it at least sound like a good idea on paper?

 

[dduck72]

^^ With U-tilt, I meant it as a punish, or if he's left open long enough to pull it off. From what I've tested, it's also a good shield breaker. When in the air, most Marios I've seen use the f-air a lot, with has a bit of start up to it. Mega's f-air is faster, but b-air has a bit more spike and range, so it really depends on the situation.

At the start of the match, what I'd do is see what type of Mario you're dealing with, and how good they are with the cape, so maybe start with a MB or CB, depending on ones preference.

 

[Locke 06]

I just had some good Mario matches. Up-air combos send you tumbling, so you can't Rush Cancel out of everything. Mario, like everyone, has a hard time approaching Mega Man while you throw out pellets. They cancel fireballs, so usually Marios try to jump up high to rain fireballs from above. Anticipating this, you can throw pellets out to keep him closer to the ground or just walk a little closer or further away from him. (really, pellets are the answer to just about everything)

They're more than content to use their capes at a distance, so you can't spam MB's and CB's from long distance and expect results. However, up close/mid-range most Marios really abandon the cape because they're too busy trying to combo you (and the cape is not a combo starter). The place where the cape affects the matchup the most is off the stage as you can't really send out projectiles to gimp as the cape is part of their recovery.

Also, I used a Fsmash that got reflected by the cape and disappeared before it hit me. It can be done... but some research needs to be done on how far Fsmash goes & how the cape affects the life & speed of the shot.

 

[Valzy]

I just had some good Mario matches. Up-air combos send you tumbling, so you can't Rush Cancel out of everything. Mario, like everyone, has a hard time approaching Mega Man while you throw out pellets. They cancel fireballs, so usually Marios try to jump up high to rain fireballs from above. Anticipating this, you can throw pellets out to keep him closer to the ground or just walk a little closer or further away from him. (really, pellets are the answer to just about everything)

They're more than content to use their capes at a distance, so you can't spam MB's and CB's from long distance and expect results. However, up close/mid-range most Marios really abandon the cape because they're too busy trying to combo you (and the cape is not a combo starter). The place where the cape affects the matchup the most is off the stage as you can't really send out projectiles to gimp as the cape is part of their recovery.

Also, I used a Fsmash that got reflected by the cape and disappeared before it hit me. It can be done... but some research needs to be done on how far Fsmash goes & how the cape affects the life & speed of the shot.

Confirming that FSmash can disappear before it hits you, it happened the first time I tested if FSmash could be reflected.

 

[Dpete]

Haven't played many decent Marios, but I will say characters with reflectors aren't as bad of a matchup as people make them to be. Lemons should still be your bread and butter, with a healthy dose of Fair and Bair. Mix in some Dtilts and Dash attacks plus a good shield/roll/grab game, and you should be fine. Avoid Fsmash like the plague. I'd say it's 55:45 in Mario's favor, since he does shut down a portion of Mega's game (Fsmash, Metal Blade, and Crash Bomb) while leaving all his options open.

 

[Valzy]

So I don't play as Mega Man very often, but I play against him a lot and his Up Smash annoys the hell out of me, anybody know how to avoid it?