Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[meleebrawler]

I absolutely love megaman, in game and out, I was one of those people who when they revealed him in smash literally jumped out of their seat and screamed yes for 20 minutes.
He's my secondary in this game, I know him very well and I know the megaman boards very well.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with my fellow Samus players, with the caveat that they are likely all better players than me, I'm not a pro and my job currently prevents competition (will change in ~6 months). It could be that at very high level the matchup switches into megaman's favour but for mere mortals this is a terrible, awful matchup for megaman. Quite possibly the worst. I cannot recall ever losing to mega as Samus. I play a *very* mellee+charge shot focused Samus, missiles are rarity from me.
The break-even point is about 60% damage. If mega has not won the stock by about 60% damage on him pretty much any move that Samus throws out gives her 1.5 seconds which is enough to get a half-charged shot. The other problem is Samus can dish out damage in the blink of an eye with just one combo. Once the shot is loaded - nothing is safe. Jump? Charge shot timed to your landing. Ok, so up-B before landing -> she knows this, starts charging another shot immediately since your up-B sends you sky high, worse problem now. Pellets? Charge shot. Lemons? Charge shot. Blade? Charge shot. Leaf shield... lol, just no. If she's sitting at f-tilt range what do you do? You both dash and walk at the same speed, there's no mixup possible. Nothing is safe. Literally nothing. We play can and mouse for awhile but if the reads are equal you're basically dead, every trade means another charge shot and it starts to get fully charged which is downhill slope fast.
I feel extremely safe in short hop aerial pursuit against megaman, I know his hitboxes really well, and it is possible to win out with Samus in the air at a high ratio move vs. move. Z-air I feel is mixup, not focus, but Samus can literally start an air-dodge and cancel it with z-air at any point, so if she sees pellets, z-air. Megaman has huge cooldown on his ground game, the Samus up-tilt can land after his dash, a spot dodged f-smash, the d-smash, the d-tilt, the up-tilt, and Samus' up-tilt is a major combo starter, you can eat a 38% pack of damage instantly from one punish. Megaman just simply can't do that in return.
Again, for mere mortals, this is hard as hell.

It's probably one of those cases where, assuming both players play perfectly, Mega should win since
he'll give Samus a hell of a time building a charge early on (except at the word go where nothing Mega has
will hit Samus before she can get at least half ready), and Samus is a relatively easy target for juggles.
She also has a slow roll that Rock is very adept at punishing, if not always hard. But if he lets up the pressure
for even a moment or slips up... there's little he can do to stop the incoming charge shot, let alone stop her
from charging again unless she misses at close range. (Samus Utilt isn't too hard to tech if you reflexively shield, though).

Should be noted that Skull Barrier greatly changes the dynamic of the match here. While it will definitely
force Samus to be less liberal with the charge shots, and occasionally help him wade through the mess of relentless missiles Samus will most likely be using, it still limits his offense the same way all shields do without a blade in hand and, more critically, leaves him more vulnerable to Samus's close range game since the skulls do next to nothing to hamper nearby opponents.
He does also get danger wrap which makes his juggles even more deadly against Samus, but it still doesn't help against
charge shots.

 

[Blade Knight]

This is a matchup in customs where Samus would be running Melee Charged Shot over standard or dense if we bring Skull Barrier. We're literally at disadvantage regardless of which barrier type we bring in some way, since Melee beats Skull Barrier but Dense demolishes leaf and plant. Mega Bombs and Slip Bombs can also be positioned between Mega Man and Samus causing us to basically be unable to use lemons from maximum range for a few moments, as Mega Bomb/Slip Bomb's explosion timer ticks down and we wouldn't want to let her capitalize on the explosion. With customs on I could see this becoming much closer to even, though Danger Wrap and Tornado Hold only exacerbate the situation of getting back to the ground for Samus.

 

[meleebrawler]

Slip Bomb kind of explodes too fast to be used as a deterrent, it's more of an immediate use tool
along the lines of "get out of my face or trip and suffer a followup".

 

[Locke 06]

Samus will never run melee charge shot. It's bad. Samus mains can correct me if I'm wrong, but normal charge shot is a must. Otherwise, there's nothing to keep Mega Man from unloading metal blades, crash bombs, or reckless pellets.

Slip bombs have a very small timer and even smaller range (you basically have to be above them and hope they run into it). Mega bombs might work for what you are talking about.

Relentless missiles may help by putting up a wall for Mega Man to wade through, but skull barrier should be taken in a customs environment. If there are too many missiles that you can't snipe/cancel out, Samus should not be close enough to punish the startup of the reflector. I think their effectiveness will be limited to off stage & baiting the reflector to get in on Mega Man.

 

[Blade Knight]

I'm aware that melee charge shot is pretty bad, but if Mega Man runs reflector it gives her another option. As far as I know Dense Shot vs Charge Shot is preference based mostly, but each may be preferred in specific matchups. I could be wrong and it is just THAT bad, but I can't see how having +1 option vs Skull Barrier is a bad thing. Slip Bombs actually have a surprisingly big explosion radius given the visual effect but I did forget about how short their timer was, oops.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm aware that melee charge shot is pretty bad, but if Mega Man runs reflector it gives her another option. As far as I know Dense Shot vs Charge Shot is preference based mostly, but each may be preferred in specific matchups. I could be wrong and it is just THAT bad, but I can't see how having +1 option vs Skull Barrier is a bad thing. Slip Bombs actually have a surprisingly big explosion radius given the visual effect but I did forget about how short their timer was, oops.

While I agree that having another option against Mega's reflector is good, but the normal charge shot can be used to punish Mega Man during the cool down of his attacks. That is far more valuable, IMO. Also, skull barrier doesn't start reflecting until frame 11, so it's not the best at reflecting on reaction to something as fast as the charge shot. Dense takes longer to charge and fire, in addition to being slow moving (reflectable on reaction and unable to trade with MM's mid-long range game) so I think Samus should take normal charge shot.

My opinion though. Not the end all.

 

[Blade Knight]

Your points make a lot of sense, seeing it put that way Charge Shot does seem like the best bet vs Mega Man. Charge Shot+Mega Bombs+Relentless Missiles could be a huge pain for us in this matchup, and I know that Mega Bomb sees some use out of a few Samus players. I'm not sure what up B she could go for. The 11 frame start up of Apex Screw Attack seems like a bad choice because of lemons, even if it is a good kill move. Screw Rush is also 11 frames, but it punishes a good amount of horizontal space, though it prevents her from gimping us if we bring anything but Beat. Seems to me that Screw Rush might be her best bet in this matchup if we bring Beat and otherwise regular screw attack would be what to look out for if we have Tornado Hold or Rush.

From our side it seems like Metal Blade/Danger Wrap/Beat/Skull Barrier would be a good general set to go with, though I'd be interested in Ice Slasher's and Tornado Hold's potential in this matchup since they launch Samus helplessly into the air.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm aware that melee charge shot is pretty bad, but if Mega Man runs reflector it gives her another option. As far as I know Dense Shot vs Charge Shot is preference based mostly, but each may be preferred in specific matchups. I could be wrong and it is just THAT bad, but I can't see how having +1 option vs Skull Barrier is a bad thing. Slip Bombs actually have a surprisingly big explosion radius given the visual effect but I did forget about how short their timer was, oops.

They key to understanding slip bomb's range is the ring it produces.

Relentless missiles do a pretty good job of keeping Megaman out of his mid-range comfort zone,
as long as she doesn't get too cozy with them on a Skull Barrier.

I don't think Dense is too good in this matchup, Megaman doesn't rush in close unless he sees clear
vulnerability so he's unlikely to be caught off guard by it. It'd be mostly relegated to an edge-guard tool.

I'm pretty sure Melee Charge Shot is fine for punishing in close range where he whiffs harder, you just
lose the ability to deny his long range tools... which aren't that threatening (metal blades are only really dangerous
when Megaman is close and can follow up, and if he's running danger wrap, it's his ONLY real long-ranged tool).
Though it remains to be seen just HOW it actually interacts with Rock's moves.

That said, standard Charge Shot is almost never a bad choice, even against reflectors. It's just that good.

 

[Locke 06]

Okay. A whole day without discussion.

Here are some videos to liven things up. And by liven things up, I mean... I'm sorry, Samus, and those who think this matchup is close to even. This is incredibly one-sided and Mega Man just needs to play the matchup correctly to win.

AAA demonstration
BAir vs BAir
UAir love on Battlefield
We Livin'

4 videos. I have more I wanted to upload, but it's late and I wanted to get this out. @ HeroMystic and I played for maybe an hour and a half and came up with the following conclusion: Samus has no answer to pellets.

Half/full charge shot? Stuffed by pellets too at the right range. She can start to make headway if pellets get so stale that super missiles outprioritize them, but both missiles & Z-air can be traded with fsmash.

Note: Yes, this is wifi, but the connection was smooth and the principle still stands. During some of these matches, I went into auto pilot AAA utilt mode, mostly because I wasn't worried about making mistakes or really worried about taking hits in general. I miss some trading opportunities and mess up my pellet spacing at times which leads to some good Samus combo's.

I encourage both sides to analyze these videos to see if there is something that was missed. But I think they do a decent job of showing what happens in this matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

If anything the lag benefits Samus more than Megaman since it's that much harder to react to Charge Shot mindgames.

 

[meleebrawler]

Okay. A whole day without discussion.

Here are some videos to liven things up. And by liven things up, I mean... I'm sorry, Samus, and those who think this matchup is close to even. This is incredibly one-sided and Mega Man just needs to play the matchup correctly to win.

AAA demonstration
BAir vs BAir
UAir love on Battlefield
We Livin'

4 videos. I have more I wanted to upload, but it's late and I wanted to get this out. @ HeroMystic and I played for maybe an hour and a half and came up with the following conclusion: Samus has no answer to pellets.

I say this again; someone needs to test Melee Charge Shot against stuff like pellets.

 

[FlAlex]

I say this again; someone needs to test Melee Charge Shot against stuff like pellets.

Would you like to?

Any Megamen wanna go a few rounds tomorrow? We'll try standard movesets and customs, so test whatever you wanna. (I'll only be using melee charge shot since I don't have all Samus customs and that's the only one I'm interested in).
Remember, tomorrow at about five pm EST and I should be on Smashboards ready for participant's names. (PS: WiiU only)
If the lag is too bad, we'll omit the battles.
IMPORTANT EDIT: Cannot do it tomorrow so I will have to retract my offer. Sorry about that.
Seeya then.

 

[FlAlex]

Okay. A whole day without discussion.

Here are some videos to liven things up. And by liven things up, I mean... I'm sorry, Samus, and those who think this matchup is close to even. This is incredibly one-sided and Mega Man just needs to play the matchup correctly to win.

AAA demonstration
BAir vs BAir
UAir love on Battlefield
We Livin'

4 videos. I have more I wanted to upload, but it's late and I wanted to get this out. @ HeroMystic and I played for maybe an hour and a half and came up with the following conclusion: Samus has no answer to pellets.

Half/full charge shot? Stuffed by pellets too at the right range. She can start to make headway if pellets get so stale that super missiles outprioritize them, but both missiles & Z-air can be traded with fsmash.

Note: Yes, this is wifi, but the connection was smooth and the principle still stands. During some of these matches, I went into auto pilot AAA utilt mode, mostly because I wasn't worried about making mistakes or really worried about taking hits in general. I miss some trading opportunities and mess up my pellet spacing at times which leads to some good Samus combo's.

I encourage both sides to analyze these videos to see if there is something that was missed. But I think they do a decent job of showing what happens in this matchup.

Would not be that bad of an MU if MM died faster. Seriously! MM at 188% while taking a fresh screwattack to the face and still no KO? I understand DI is important but no character should be living that long. WTF Sakurai.

I would have liked to have seen a few things: SH>Air dodge, Jump OoS, try to see if morph ball can slide under pellets, can jab1 cancel out all three lemons in a row? And can Upair/Nair eat pellets without being canceled if the hitboxes meet the pellets?

But this is exactly the kind of battles I had when I went against that MM opponent of mine. Really one sided.
Overall I rate this MU as "WTF is balance?": 10 - MegaMan's favor.

 

[Fenrir VII]

While I'm a bit surprised at how much advantage people are giving Megaman... I can't really disagree with it. I was giving it a 6-4 to be conservative, but I could definitely see it being worse.

As a mega main, it's really hard to avoid falling into the pellets > everything mindset... but in some matchups, that is 100% true.

Samus was one of the chars that I had a few issues with early on in the game, but as I go along, I keep getting better at the matchup, and I do feel it's a fairly strong advantage for us now. Mario is in the exact same boat.

 

[ChopperDave]

Yup. Samus was one of my toughest matchups early on, but as I've gotten better and MM's meta has developed, I now find it much easier. Lemons are just that good.

Uair is also really solid in this MU. It's not too challenging to land a grounded uair on her given how tall she is and how much of a commitment many of her moves are.

I still think Charge Shot is the trickiest thing about this MU for us. It beats every single one of our projectiles, so it can make lemon spam much more dangerous. My friend plays a mean Samus and when he's making good reads and punishes with Charge Shot, I feel a lot less in control of the match.

But Skull Barrier makes all of Samus's projecfiles less of a problem -- even her bombs, which we can turn friendly by walking into them. Danger Wrap is also really hard for Samus to avoid given how floaty she she. With customs on this MU seems pretty lopsidedly in our favor.

 

[Blade Knight]

Nice gameplay, it showcases the matchup well. Something that's very clear to see is how much even idly throwing out pellets with even just sparce movement stuffs Samus' options. The Samus in those videos used very few of their buttons and was clearly working with the sole intent of getting that charge shot. Honestly I can't blame them either, not many of Samus' options would do anything in this matchup to help turn the momentum around. In turn that could make the menetal aspect even worse for Samus players since we can predict what they'll do that much easier.

Locke's play also demonstrates how even if Samus does get a charge shot up that by no means makes it a certain hit when fired. He simply jumped over them a couple times. He made good use of his options and while he didn't keep her in the air or juggle her as well as he could have in a couple of those he still took comfortable wins which is really saying something. Even just the up air sharking he did in BAir vs BAir made the Samus want to get to the ground and stay there, which is still good for us. One thing to keep in mind is how a few times rather than going for a higher damage option with down throw (or potentially up throw) he would sometimes go for Back or Forward throw instead for positioning, as limiting Samus to the edge of a stage only suffocates her even more in this matchup.

(that footstool in we livin made me laugh)

 

[DungeonMaster]

With respect HeroMystic, I feel you're making some pretty big mistakes in this matchup. I'm not saying I could do any better since Locke 06's pressure is very real, I feel you're cracking under pressure.
You're wailing for the fences on those charge shots, and even then if all you did was shot-hop them many more would connect (or threaten at least). If megaman is going to pellet approach you, he's going to hop in or walk, you're not covering both options with your own short-hop shots and whiffing.
You're never advancing or retreating with a short hop air-dodge, so you're getting locked into shield at the specific spacing he wants. You can cancel that air-dodge into z-air at any point. It is always safe to change the spacing after the 3rd pellet, just count 1-2-3 -> I can act. If you get locked into shield, he doesn't need to do any second guessing, he just pellets again and will interrupt your charge shot. If you've changed the spacing at all, he's got to worry he may miss. An opponent just standing there is the single best thing in the whole world for megaman, it's exactly what he wants and you're giving it to him.
SH-Jump in with airdodge straight from ground and use that n-air and up-air. They autocancel, they can both cross-up out of a SH-air dodge to make his own shield grab less than obvious. You're going for f-air on jump in which is too slow and has murder end-lag and will not hit with its final good-knockback hitbox anyways.
In general, I feel the SH->airdodge is an essential element of Samus play in smash4 since her roll is only really useful in certain matchups.
When you do get to the f-tilt spacing range, you do see it clearly connect and beat out the pellets. Several times when he screws up his own spacing, you're not throwing out your kick, I think you're trying for d-tilt because it's faster but it won't cover you from pellets like f-tilt will. You really want to kick him in the face. At high %s like you do once, that kick knocks him prone and naturally strings into a CS tech chase and it's no longer remotely safe trading pellets for a kick.
Many times you miss the punish on his laggy moves.You're simply not registering them as laggy. He dash-attacks through you and you were facing his direction with a charge shot loaded. Tons of up-tilts whiff and you are within range of your own up-tilt or grab.
You miss the up-B out of shield, you're trying for grabs out of shield. Samus just simply should never grab out of shield, anything with a decent jab is going to get you punished. It's a hard habit to break (I know...).
Don't even bother throwing a missile, there's no threat behind them in this matchup, charge the shot.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually isn't Samus Dtilt just ever so slightly slower on startup than Ftilt? I think people are just more
prone to using it because it's more rewarding on average.

Also remember that as good as Skull Barrier can be in this matchup, it has a few critical flaws.
For one, no pellets when it's active. In fact, without a metal blade or hyper bomb in your
hands, you have no threat whatsoever aside from throwing the shield (which is admittedly surprisingly
quick) for a mere 2% and pitiful knockback. He only really has standard defense options with it up.
The startup, though again faster than the others, can still be a problem, especially when there's
no risk of being too late on the punish and getting stunned by metal foliage. All Skull Barrier does
to opponents is a weak push, certainly not enough to be considered good protection.
It also makes it harder to fully utilize Rock's metal blade game since he can't get confirms
with his shield before using the blade.

 

[HeroMystic]

With respect HeroMystic, I feel you're making some pretty big mistakes in this matchup. I'm not saying I could do any better since Locke 06's pressure is very real, I feel you're cracking under pressure.
You're wailing for the fences on those charge shots, and even then if all you did was shot-hop them many more would connect (or threaten at least). If megaman is going to pellet approach you, he's going to hop in or walk, you're not covering both options with your own short-hop shots and whiffing.
You're never advancing or retreating with a short hop air-dodge, so you're getting locked into shield at the specific spacing he wants. You can cancel that air-dodge into z-air at any point. It is always safe to change the spacing after the 3rd pellet, just count 1-2-3 -> I can act. If you get locked into shield, he doesn't need to do any second guessing, he just pellets again and will interrupt your charge shot. If you've changed the spacing at all, he's got to worry he may miss. An opponent just standing there is the single best thing in the whole world for megaman, it's exactly what he wants and you're giving it to him.
SH-Jump in with airdodge straight from ground and use that n-air and up-air. They autocancel, they can both cross-up out of a SH-air dodge to make his own shield grab less than obvious. You're going for f-air on jump in which is too slow and has murder end-lag and will not hit with its final good-knockback hitbox anyways.
In general, I feel the SH->airdodge is an essential element of Samus play in smash4 since her roll is only really useful in certain matchups.
When you do get to the f-tilt spacing range, you do see it clearly connect and beat out the pellets. Several times when he screws up his own spacing, you're not throwing out your kick, I think you're trying for d-tilt because it's faster but it won't cover you from pellets like f-tilt will. You really want to kick him in the face. At high %s like you do once, that kick knocks him prone and naturally strings into a CS tech chase and it's no longer remotely safe trading pellets for a kick.
Many times you miss the punish on his laggy moves.You're simply not registering them as laggy. He dash-attacks through you and you were facing his direction with a charge shot loaded. Tons of up-tilts whiff and you are within range of your own up-tilt or grab.
You miss the up-B out of shield, you're trying for grabs out of shield. Samus just simply should never grab out of shield, anything with a decent jab is going to get you punished. It's a hard habit to break (I know...).
Don't even bother throwing a missile, there's no threat behind them in this matchup, charge the shot.

I'm not the best Samus player by a long shot (she's not even my main, but I love playing as her), but all of that play against Locke's MM was trying to figure out that MU since there's so little information as is. I kinda wish he showed the game where I actually won though, since at those points I actually do appropriately bop his whiffed U-tilts.

I will say I've never actually did SH AD to Z-air because it never registered in my head. It may be her only real answer to pellet pressure so I'd like to try it again when @ Locke 06 and I have time. I used SH Missiles as an idea to get around pellet pressure and force him to react to something, and Super Missiles are there when his pellets stale out since by that point they go through all of them.

I also never want anyone to feel they can't point out what I did wrong and how to improve. Criticism is always good to take.

Actually isn't Samus Dtilt just ever so slightly slower on startup than Ftilt? I think people are just more
prone to using it because it's more rewarding on average.

D-tilt is two frames faster than F-tilt, but doesn't cover nearly as much range as F-tilt does. Generally, I used it to pop MM in the air to get something going.

 

[meleebrawler]

I kinda wish he showed the game where I actually won though, since at those points I actually do appropriately bop his whiffed U-tilts.

Convenient negligence is convenient when trying to make a point...

 

[Blade Knight]

It's not really negligent to drop one match where he lost. Regardless that's 4:1 which is still well within the generally thrown out 7:3 or worse rating.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd be careful with terminology. Uair and Nair don't autocancel, they have tremendously low landing lag. Autocanceling is for things like SH DAir, where the first actionable frame of the attack is later than the "autocancel" window where you don't suffer its full landing lag. Also, Up-B should be used, but is risky due to utilt. I was pretty much giving him the grab, because if he did anything else on my shield, I'd get a large punish.

Critique is good. The point of the videos and this discussion is to learn how to play both sides of the matchup, so your post is incredibly helpful, @ DungeonMaster . And for the Mega Man users who want to critique my play, I went mostly on autopilot. In a serious setting, I would probably not be as punishable with my offense as I was. However, it was a friendly, and pelleting for an hour straight can be quite tedious, and utilts are so fun.

And I'm sorry, @ HeroMystic . I had the full intention of uploading 6 videos which included the one I had to scrap a comeback and the one you won. However, my phone ran out of memory when recording (which conveniently happened right after the last video which had me living forever [which is why the video doesn't go to the end of the match]). If I have time tonight, I'll finish recording, but like I said, I thought I'd spur some discussion after a full day of none... and it was 1:30 AM when it finally uploaded to Google.

To clarify, HeroMystic and I played about an hour+ where he tried to figure out the matchup. In that hour+, he won one. While that has to do with the fact that my Mega is better than his Samus (I don't think he'll have a problem with me saying that), I think a large portion of the struggle is character-based.

Actually isn't Samus Dtilt just ever so slightly slower on startup than Ftilt? I think people are just more
prone to using it because it's more rewarding on average.

Also remember that as good as Skull Barrier can be in this matchup, it has a few critical flaws.
For one, no pellets when it's active. In fact, without a metal blade or hyper bomb in your
hands, you have no threat whatsoever aside from throwing the shield (which is admittedly surprisingly
quick) for a mere 2% and pitiful knockback. He only really has standard defense options with it up.
The startup, though again faster than the others, can still be a problem, especially when there's
no risk of being too late on the punish and getting stunned by metal foliage. All Skull Barrier does
to opponents is a weak push, certainly not enough to be considered good protection.
It also makes it harder to fully utilize Rock's metal blade game since he can't get confirms
with his shield before using the blade.

Skull Barrier also allows you to grab, which is his primary threat with a shield up. The knockback on the throw is low enough to follow up with a dash grab or running u-smash at high %'s with correct positioning. That said, if Samus baits a Skull Barrier, she is in a much better position than Mega Man. I would just caution with the thought he's a sitting duck. He's less vulnerable any other baited reflector.

 

[ChopperDave]

I'd be careful with terminology. Uair and Nair don't autocancel, they have tremendously low landing lag. Autocanceling is for things like SH DAir, where the first actionable frame of the attack is later than the "autocancel" window where you don't suffer its full landing lag. Also, Up-B should be used, but is risky due to utilt. I was pretty much giving him the grab, because if he did anything else on my shield, I'd get a large punish.

Critique is good. The point of the videos and this discussion is to learn how to play both sides of the matchup, so your post is incredibly helpful, @ DungeonMaster . And for the Mega Man users who want to critique my play, I went mostly on autopilot. In a serious setting, I would probably not be as punishable with my offense as I was. However, it was a friendly, and pelleting for an hour straight can be quite tedious, and utilts are so fun.

And I'm sorry, @ HeroMystic . I had the full intention of uploading 6 videos which included the one I had to scrap a comeback and the one you won. However, my phone ran out of memory when recording (which conveniently happened right after the last video which had me living forever [which is why the video doesn't go to the end of the match]). If I have time tonight, I'll finish recording, but like I said, I thought I'd spur some discussion after a full day of none... and it was 1:30 AM when it finally uploaded to Google.

To clarify, HeroMystic and I played about an hour+ where he tried to figure out the matchup. In that hour+, he won one. While that has to do with the fact that my Mega is better than his Samus (I don't think he'll have a problem with me saying that), I think a large portion of the struggle is character-based.


Skull Barrier also allows you to grab, which is his primary threat with a shield up. The knockback is low enough to follow up with a dash grab or running u-smash at high %'s with correct positioning. That said, if Samus baits a Skull Barrier, she is in a much better position than Mega Man. I would just caution with the thought he's a sitting duck. He's less vulnerable any other baited reflector.

Huh. Can you explain how you differentiate between an "autocancel" and "low end lag"?

My understanding is that autocancelling is when landing during an aerial shortens the endlag on the move, which appears to be the case with uair. (Uair normally has pretty nasty endlag which you can see if you use it offstage and don't land.) Have I been using the term incorrectly?

 

[HeroMystic]

Auto-Cancel means there is no lag when you land, period.

 

[Locke 06]

Huh. Can you explain how you differentiate between an "autocancel" and "low end lag"?

My understanding is that autocancelling is when landing during an aerial shortens the endlag on the move, which appears to be the case with uair. (Uair normally has pretty nasty endlag which you can see if you use it offstage and don't land.) Have I been using the term incorrectly?

"AC"/"Auto Cancel"/"Autocancel"- Using an aerial attack, landing before the aerial's animation has ended, and then without any further input, receiving no lag from landing with the aerial (other than the usual minor lag for simply landing). Some aerials can only do this by using them just before you land, while others can only do this by landing at a certain time after the attack is no longer capable of hitting. Rosalina is special in that if you auto cancel an aerial by using it just before you land, Luma will still do the attack, leaving Rosalina free to do any action, e.g. grab.

An easy example is that MM's BAir autocancels from frame 1-3 (any point before the first hitbox comes out). You pressed the button, but you receive no landing lag than if you landed while the hitboxes were out. UAir autocancels from a full hop on stage, just like DAir autocancels from a double jump.

In the case of Short hop fast fall UAir for Mega Man, which is what I assume you're talking about, you are suffering the full landing lag of the move, but that is shorter than the full animation saving you time. I think it's generally referred to as a "Falling aerial."

'd

 

[meleebrawler]

Skull Barrier also allows you to grab, which is his primary threat with a shield up. The knockback is low enough to follow up with a dash grab or running u-smash at high %'s with correct positioning. That said, if Samus baits a Skull Barrier, she is in a much better position than Mega Man. I would just caution with the thought he's a sitting duck. He's less vulnerable any other baited reflector.

me. But it's still more difficult for him to get a grab with that shield than the other barriers.
You're basically choosing between protection from charge shots, relentless missiles and...
bombs? (Who would try to reflect these unless their reflector was disjointed like Falco's? I only
see this being somewhat effective against Power Bombs), or making Samus more uncomfortable in close
quarters.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Good spirit! I like it! I would really love to see a rematch between you 2 just with those few pointers and particularly the rising SH-AD (and a battle of the mains for good measure )
I'm not a pro but would love to duke it out with (any) of you anytime so by all means add me. (My work schedule is crap fair warning may not happen for some time).

 

[meleebrawler]

So Melee Charge Shot isn't that great. You CAN beat pellets and stuff with it... but only the max charge
has the range to do so, and you can still get stuffed out of the startup. Also he has to be walking straight
at you for Melee to work against pellets.

 

[Locke 06]

So Melee Charge Shot isn't that great. You CAN beat pellets and stuff with it... but only the max charge
has the range to do so, and you can still get stuffed out of the startup. Also he has to be walking straight
at you for Melee to work against pellets.

Defaaaaulllttttt!

 

[Xygonn]

For customs I would probably run Dense CS, Relentless missiles, slip bomb, and screw rush against MM. I think Screw Rush OoS could be a legitimate answer to lemons.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you don't connect the dense shot and he's running skulls, he can just activate
and walk into it and now your Yoga Catastrophe has you pinned. It also takes longer
to charge giving Megaman more time to keep the game in his favour, and if he's playing
the mid-range game like he should, it's easy for him to escape. Relentless missiles do enough
to make that game more uncomfortable.

 

[Xygonn]

If you don't connect the dense shot and he's running skulls, he can just activate
and walk into it and now your Yoga Catastrophe has you pinned. It also takes longer
to charge giving Megaman more time to keep the game in his favour, and if he's playing
the mid-range game like he should, it's easy for him to escape. Relentless missiles do enough
to make that game more uncomfortable.

does skull barrier stay up if you grab megaman? The two ways I use it (at range) is by throwing people into the dense charge shot and as an edge guard. I think it would work well for both purposes still even if MM grabs skulls. The nice thing about dense charge shot is it's easy to avoid upon reflect. Basically it only works at point blank (no time to reflect for skulls) and as a trap. Since I know when it is coming, there is no reason I should get hit by a reflected dense charge shot (unless I somehow let megaman throw me into it after he has reflected it).

 

[KyroChao]

No matter which way its swung, i think if the MM and Samus fought each other on equal skill levels, then its definitely in MM's favor.Even if you can trap him into charge shot blasts, that's still a lot to have to rely on while he can still assault you with his superior projectile game.

 

[CopShowGuy]

does skull barrier stay up if you grab megaman?

It goes away when he's grabbed.

 

[Xygonn]

Whelp, I purely theorycrafting til I put the customs up against someone. I'm pretty limited on time right now, but I'll see if I can find time. If not, maybe someone with the customs and samus knowledge could do it for me Really want to try screw rush against MM.

 

[Locke 06]

Also note that the discussion never truly ends. When anyone finds anything of note in any matchup or wants to discuss something that is not being focused on in this thread, they should head over to the general MU discussion thread. This is not only applies to mega man users, but those who find counter plays to mega man's strategies.

Someday, summary posts will get done, and will be continually updated with any discussion that happens in the general MU discussion thread. This is just a way to focus and facilitate the exchange of ideas.

 

[KyroChao]

If anyone wants to do any Samus V MM later(preferably next 30 minutes), we test more stuff like ice slasher, beat, and hyper bomb perhaps as well as samus customs. Note though that i dont have many samus customs at all

 

[Locke 06]

Yup. I'm awesome. I uploaded a total of 0 videos in the past few days. Go me.

In all seriousness, as great as this discussion has been, we should move on. With a roster this big, we can't get stuck focusing on one matchup for too long and 9 days is... a bit too long. That's completely my fault, per usual, but I just thought I'd explain why we're moving on when there's still quite a bit of discussion to be had. I encourage everyone, especially Samus mains who are wishing to try out MU ideas over wifi, to post their findings in the general MU thread. There are plenty of experienced Mega Mans on our board, and it shouldn't be too hard to setup friendly matches.

Thanks to the Samus mains, @ Xygonn , @ FlAlex , @ DungeonMaster , @ KyroChao . And a special shoutout to @ HeroMystic for suffering through the MU with me.

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From one robotic suit of armor to a full on robot:



In honor of the conquest, which Mega Man won, and per request, we'll now try to dissect the ROB matchup. Due to the impact the inclusion of customs have on this matchup for both characters, I strongly suggest everyone specify whether their customs talk is theory based or experience based. We don't want to fall into the trap of "down B > projectiles."

Not too much on the MU on either boards.

Videos:
Dezmu vs Miidas
SSGuy vs Gyo

Quotes:

R.O.B. I think is a slight or even solid advantage for us. I used to have trouble with this MU until I figured out a few things. We can really cripple R.O.B.'s game by grabbing and holding onto his gyro, then falling back on our specials and using Zero's trick to fire pellets with gyro in hand. Once you nab the gyro R.O.B. becomes a lot less dangerous, and we can easily keep him spaced because he's such a big target. Offstage he's pretty easy to hit with blade drops, bairs, and dairs given the way his recovery works. His reflect is highly punishable on whiff. You even have time to throw out a dsmash if he ends his spin next to you.

Skull Barrier was going to be applied for this match up, no doubt. ROB is already really disruptive in this MU. Applying a reflector forces him to approach more than sit back. This allowed for me to play more of my game. Danger Wrap was not really something that I felt really familiar with so I wanted to get myself with as much playtime with it as much as possible. It is the same reason why I have been playing/counter-picking nothing but Battlefield in my matches. I feel like I am more comfortable with Crash Bomb unless the character is going to want to stay above me more often. It never really applied offline.

I really need to unlock Skull Barrier or play with it more. So many questions I have about it and application.

And there are quite a few quotes from the MM boards saying "ugh. ROB is hard," but they're all short so I didn't quote them.

We'll probably go until Tuesday, as weekends are usually productive enough to go 4 days.

And I don't really have a creative title for this one... so conquest rematch it is.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

Get ROB into the air. He relies on nair to land, which gets stuffed by Fsmash. Also, since he is so big, you can juggle with Uair and/or Danger Wrap to your heart's content. Off stage, ROB is easy to hit but not necessarily easy to kill. A laser/gyro can grant him a safe return, and he can attack out of his Up B. They'll usually try to Uair you under the lip of the stage, so beware of that.

There isn't much more that I can add that hasn't already been said.

 

[CopShowGuy]

One thing I like to remember for this matchup is that you can often shoot a rotating Gyro out of existence. Clears the floor and lets you move around as you'd like. Sure ROB has a super annoying reflector (as far as reflect characters go anyway) but, as usual, that really only stops you from fsmashing and throwing Leaf Shield.

Still, ROB has good and easier kill options. I'd say it's about even and more boils down to the better player.