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Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

Locke 06

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I'd love to comment more in depth for the sake of adding to the conversation, but you all seem to have a better grasp on technical data than I do. I can comment on the 3 match ups by saying that Mario has the advantage, Yoshi is about even, and Zero Suit Samus is at a disadvantage. I can agree on those points at least with my experiences against all 3 of them.
You don't need technical data. Half of what I say is stream of consciousness and then I end up digging for data to back my thoughts up. Data is nice, but things like, "The Fludd has never given me problems at all in the Mario matchup." (which is true and I don't know if that's just the move not being that useful?) has no technical data and can add a lot to the discussion.

Also, looking at the OP can give you some ideas on things that haven't been brought up. For example, Stage choice, ZSS off stage game, how to position yourself against a egg throwing Yoshi.

From the OP:
Information Wanted: How to contribute to this discussion? Post anything you think you find useful in the matchups that are being discussed. Any experience is experience and all input is welcome. Feel free to disagree with anything anyone posts, but please be ready and willing to explain and discuss everything that you post.
Stream of consciousness writing is encouraged as long as you are willing to discuss it. :)

Edit: Tomorrow is the last day for these 3 characters. I'm writing up Shulk right now and I hope to write up the Mario MU tomorrow as well. Yoshi and ZSS will be done mid-week (Wed night). Unless anyone has any objections, our first full subject of the new year will be the :4megaman: ditto. Because it's always good to reflect upon yourself when the calendar turns. ^_^
 
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ChopperDave

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@ ChopperDave ChopperDave - would Plant Barrier be better than LS here? More damage & bigger range. Also, it tanks fireballs better... I think. I agree that DW is likely to be our best option for side-B.
I dunno. I have a friend who mained Mario and I used to practice with him, but he switched to Samus a while ago -- guy has a real talent for finding mains that give me trouble. Most of my Mario practice comes on FG now.

I don't remember Plant Barrier being especially good vs. Mario. The added startup time hurts a lot, as Mario is pretty frequently pressuring you so you need every frame you can get. I don't think it's any better at stopping fireballs than LS.

I do remember that PB, once up, does better against Mario's aerials than LS, both because it undulates outward (increasing the frequency that it will frame trap his moves' startup) and because of the increased strength/persistence of the pedals (so he can't just nair or dair through it as easily as LS). So it may be better for gimping him offstage with a Metal Blade in hand, if you have the time to set all that up, which you usually don't.
 

Locke 06

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Alright, now we're going to go into some real depth in this matchup. It's a matchup that everyone should know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent. Because... the opponent is you!

:4megaman::132:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMATfjl4DR8 - Very relevant video. SSguy Iggy squaring off!

We'll do this one for a week. I think there will be plenty to say, and it'll also give me time to write up the
ZSS/Yoshi matchups. :D

Note: Some people absolutely hate this matchup. It is okay to express your displeasure when seeing another Mega Man.
 

CopShowGuy

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Hoo boy dittos! I've only done a few of these and they are interesting.

A lot of bobbing, weaving, and baiting. You have to keep above the other player's wall of lemons and try to close in enough to get some sort of momentum going. Don't over-commit to anything as you could eat an utilt. Keep your Metal Blades at head level when thrown. If you can get a hold of their Metal Blade, keep it away from them for as long as you can. You can still use your Metal Blade (especially diagonally).

I'd say this is a 30-70 in Mega Man's favor.
 

sphenco

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Back Air can be a good friend.

Learn their stage return game and time the down A to hit them on their rush jump.

Two pellets will be better than three.

Metal blade or walking pellets to cancel a charged buster.

Get good at air grabbing Metal blades.

When coming back on stage make Up Air your friend against their Down Air
 

Fenrir VII

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So I haven't really felt the need to comment on this matchup because... it's a ditto so we all know the matchup spread (inafter and probably inb4 "100-0 Megaman's favor"). But I will say some things that I've found to work.


Like all dittos, this comes down to who can better deal with the opponent's style. This typically means (for this matchup) that the player with the superior spacing game will win.

Dthrow > Bair > 2nd jump Bair does work in this matchup. It's a very nice way to rack up a quick 30% (which is huge when utilt kill % is in the 90-100% range)
An item metal blade hits twice for 10%. uair does 10-15% on average.

All in all, play this matchup patiently. chip away at damage and be looking for around 100% to land a kill with either utilt, dsmash, or fsmash (utilt out of shield drop, dsmash for roll-reads and some landings, fsmash for a mixup in the "you're on stage, opponent is on ledge" situation). if you can't safely get those, keep chipping away and look for usmash, bair, and bthrow to each start killing somewhere in the 120-150 range

Mega Man's seem to love trying to edgeguard each other with dairs... I don't really understand this because A) it's stupidly hard to land that against Mega and B) Even when you do land it... if the opponent upB'd first, he'll just bounce again on Rush. Dair is a great move, and I like the idea of comboing it out of a z-dropped metal blade, but I wouldn't just use it by itself for edgeguarding in this matchup.
Fair and bair offstage both work a ridiculous amount better. In general, if you guess the opponent's recovery (they can really go high or low) and get a fair or bair to connect offstage after the opponent has burnt their 2nd jump, they will die.

The flip side of this... if your opponent likes to offstage edgeguard, burn your upB first. You get it back after a hit and still have a 2nd jump.

I'm on the side that I don't really like this matchup, but I'll always play it because #pride.
 
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Locke 06

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I think if you can master item tilting with the metal blade, along with Z-dropping into aerials, whoever gets the opponent's metal blade has a huge advantage over the one that doesn't. Otherwise, not having your own lemons to defend against your opponents' can be very bad.

SH Metal blade is very effective to sneak it right above standing pellet range. Leaf Shield can do some good work here as well.

I'm very curious to see if Skull Barrier has some good applications here. Especially with a MB in hand, I can see it being very good. Can't really cancel out the metal blade very effectively and JCT followups should be nice.

Sphenco - why is 2 pellets better than 3?
Fenrir - I've started to use NAir to edge guard as well. Stopping horizontal momentum from a distance can be super useful, along with getting the sweet spot which launches at the angle as BAir except forwards.

Update on OP: Working on the writeups tonight. Should have them done before I go to sleep... debatable. Shulk is finally completely done. Mario is next.

Lol. Go me. Got too wrapped up in trying to play sheik & play fast that I didn't get to writing Mario. Will be done before the week is out along with Yoshi and zss. Sorry!
 
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sphenco

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In the event that you lose you metal blade it will be nice to have a non metal blade game (as in "on you have my metsl blade, oh well I dont need that thing, it's dead to me")

The two pellets game (this mostly coming from reading strategies and watching videos) allows more follow up attacks. I guess the second pellet has less post lag than the third.
 

sphenco

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In the event that you lose you metal blade it will be nice to have a non metal blade game (as in "on you have my metsl blade, oh well I dont need that thing, it's dead to me")

The two pellets game (this mostly coming from reading strategies and watching videos) allows more follow up attacks. I guess the second pellet has less post lag than the third.
Edge guarding with pellets has been affective for me. Or with well place metal blades.
 

K-45

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I don't think megamans dittos is very fun match up and I don't think it will prove if you are a better megaman then your opponent. It will prove who is the more defensive megaman player.
 

MegaBlaster1234

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Getting the opponent offstage in a mirror match is probably the main focus since on-stage the more defensive Megaman will most likely keep the lead and react to your approach until you're at Mega Upper percentages. Megaman gimps Megaman really well.
 

Sorichuudo

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Getting the opponent offstage in a mirror match is probably the main focus since on-stage the more defensive Megaman will most likely keep the lead and react to your approach until you're at Mega Upper percentages. Megaman gimps Megaman really well.
I agree. I usually lose my MM mirror matches if the opponent is good, cause i tend to get more "agressive" while facing another MM.
 

Locke 06

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Defensive Mega Man wins over Offensive Mega Man about 70-30 in this MU. These matches will likely time out in a competitive setting... because all approaches can be completely neutralized. Good anti-air in Usmash to deter aerial approaches from straight above. SH pellets deter SH approaches. Diagonal Metal Blades are dangerous, but outside of that... it's hard to actually get in. And even when you do get in, there's not much you can really do other than get a grab & follow. It's a positional battle until someone is offstage.

For the next Discussion topic, we're going to Hyrule. I was trying to find :4zelda:, but she disappeared and all I can find is this ninja.

:4sheik: - the top tier goddess herself. Due to the amount of competitive interest in this matchup (since she is an important matchup) we'll go 1 week on her.

To start, here's ChopperDave's post from the Character Competitive Impressions thread:
I can speak to the Sheik matchup, having played against quite a few very good Sheiks as Mega Man.

Mega Man can give Sheik a hard time because he has range and good trap potential. He can pretty easily get a Metal Blade in hand or Leaf Shield up during footsies, and both give him solid offensive and defensive options. If he has one of these and shields a hit from Sheik, he pretty much has a guaranteed grab, and grab -> pummel -> throw is probably Mega Man's best DPS, so he doesn't mind that at all.

Bouncing Fish can be risky because MM's fsmash has such range. Against good MM play, Sheik needs to always weigh the possibility of the MM perfect pivoting, dashing back well out of her BF range, and punishing with a pivot fsmash. Sheik also has to be careful with her aerial approaches, as Mega Man has some pretty solid antiair options (in order of strength, I'd say these are Danger Wrap if customs on, SHFF uair, running usmash, utilt or dsmash if you're feeling ballsy.) His standing grab range is ridiculously good so it can be surprisingly tough to space attacks against him when he is shielding.

Mega Man is also one of the few characters capable of making Sheik's offstage game hard. I've trapped many greedy Sheiks using Crash Bomber when returning to the stage. MM can attach Crash Bomb to the stage, bait out a gimp attempt by the Sheik, avoid it or ledge tech the hit, safely recover back to the ledge, then laugh as the Crash Bomb stage spikes her. Sheik also has to be wary of Leaf Shield when returning to the stage -- if MM has LS up and either shields near the ledge or ledge hogs, the leaves will often stuff her before she grabs the ledge, even if she uses BF or Vanish to get there. MM can then follow up by running off stage into a footstool, bair, of dair before she can Vanish back up. If customs are on, Danger Wrap can make offstage hell for Sheik as well.

Sheik's strengths in this matchup are her needles, grenades, and fast movement. Needles can interrupt Mega Man's flow, and if he gets a MB in hand and throws/z-drops it, Sheik can use needles to knock it out of the sky. Grenades will cancel and punish even a fully charged fsmash, IIRC, which is great for Sheik-- though if she mispredicts, Mega Man can get in on her and punish hard. And simply by moving around constantly and unpredictably, Sheik can make it harder for MM to land his Metal Blade -> utilt combo, which is one of his favorite kill setups.

Sheik's best gameplan in the matchup is just to get in MM's face and never give him the time or space to set up with MB or LS. When MM gets rushed down and panics he'll often go for the shield grab, as that's generally his best and safest option at close range. Sheik can bait that out and punish by fast falling out of range and then hitting him with a dash attack or grab. Because Mega Man is heavy this is often all she needs to set up a damaging combo string at low percents. (MM can UpB away to reset at mid-to-high percents.)

Overall, I find this matchup often ends up being a knockdown drag out fight, with both characters living to high percents and struggling to get a KO. Both characters have ways to pepper each other with damage, allowing them to slowly chip away at each other over the course of match; both can combo each other at low percents but have more and more trouble doing that at higher percents; both have solid camping options and don't have to approach if they don't want to; and both can punish each other's whiffed KO moves hard, which can make both the MM and Sheik players wary of throwing out unsafe moves unless they are absolutely certain they will hit.

For Sheik, most stocks end with Mega Man getting a kill throw (his bthrow), a SHFF uair kill, a fsmash punish kill on whiffed BF, a MB -> utilt kill on whiffed dash attack/grab, or an offstage kill with bair. For Mega Man, most stocks end when Sheik gets a successful read/punish with fsmash/BF, or stage spikes him offstage with bair or BF. She can sometimes get him with uair or offstage fair, but that can be tough to pull off because MM can very quickly get out of the way using his UpB, or fake her out with a b-reversed NeutralB or DownB.

I'd say it's even. I don't think there's anything that skews the matchup decidedly in one character's favor. Both have pretty solid options, and both have weaknesses that the other can take advantage of. I actually really enjoy fighting Sheik, as it often ends up being a VERY mind game intensive match.
And here are some videos from Light's Capsule (you could just go over there, but I'll save you the trouble).
Greward (MM) v Izaw (Sheik)
SSGuy (MM) v Luck (Sheik)
I might've missed some videos... if I did, I apologize. (Also excluded 1.0.3 videos because Sheik's quite different without vectoring & UAir/BF/Fair "nerfs")

~vanish~
 
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CopShowGuy

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Both characters tend to rely on early off stage kills than late on stage ones. Both are good at racking up damage and Mega Man has the benefit of being somewhat heavy. Unfortunately, Mega Man's on-stage kill moves are pretty slow and sometimes Sheiks won't leave your personal bubble. It feels like it can go either way.
 

MegaBlaster1234

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Oddly enough the Sheik matchup is a lot like the Megaman matchup. Offstage play is key and Onstage, it's a battle of attrition to see who can rack up damage faster and punish any and all mistakes to get the lead.
Personally, I see Megaman having an advantage due to how ridiculously early we can kill with UpSmash and UpTilt OoS, especially with rage.
 

Fenrir VII

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This is one of our (2) hardest matchups imo. 6-4 to 65-35 Sheik.

she's nearly impossible to edgeguard if she plays correctly, so you have to rely on punishing her getup.

She gets SO MUCH from a single hit or grab, really poking without leaving herself open. We kill earlier than she does, but not by much with anything that isn't utilt or dsmash, which are both ridiculously hard to land.

By no means do I think this is a death matchup, but it's our hardest or 2nd hardest imo by a wide margin.
 
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_Tree

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Hey guys, Sheik main here, offering a different perspective for this.

Personally I see this matchup being much more in Sheik's favor. Megaman's weight allows him to be comboed very easily with stuff like fair strings and triple f-tilts into grabs. Megaman's zoning game, similarly to Robin, is almost completely circumvented by Bouncing fish, as it's this game's equivalent of a SF divekick, punishing projectile users easily.

I think the biggest problem Megaman will have is getting gimped. Sheik's fair strings can drag you off the stage quite effectively (especially if it leads to a bouncing fish finisher). So with Sheik being the best edge-guarder and gimper in the game (imo) and Megaman having an incredibly predictable recovery, it's very easy for Sheik mains to predict where the Megaman will recover and throw out a fair, back air or bouncing fish, pulling off a stage spike or sending that little blue robot too far from the edge.

Just some thoughts. My experience with the match-up isn't amazing, but that's what I've noticed when playing them.
 

Greward

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I agree on this being sheik's advantage. All we have going for us is the fact that we kill earlier, which pretty much all characters have against sheik lol. Our amazing edgeguard game isn't good against sheik, she's extremely hard to gimp because of banish. Bouncing fish make our projectile game a bit risky and she gets a lot of damage in from just one punish, also she has good gimping tools against our rush coil recovery. Going for us i'd say we have the tools to punish her landings and aerial spacing she uses in neutral game, because of our amazing grab and dtilt also does good work at punishing her landing. We can challenge her in the air with bair, altho her bair should beat it if trying to trade. Getting an early kill is also great and can decide a game, specially in a 2 stock ruleset (although she can gimp us so both chars can get an early kill lol).

It's not our worse and it is winnable, we have worse matchups imo
 
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CopShowGuy

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Mega Man has the ability to use his recovery before his second jump, however. That greatly helps him return. Especially in the Sheik matchup.
 

Just a Random Guy

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I do disagree with megaman's recovery being too predictable. You can go either high or low. Low skilled megaman players tend to do the same thing all over again but high level players may mixup trowing a downward/diagonal metal blade, Bouncing on rush until they find a safe landing or use leaf shield to prevent a punish.
 

K-45

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This match up is by far into sheiks favor 35-65 just becuase I put them at these odds dosen't mean it's an unwinnable match up

A good sheik can just combo megaman to 60%. Our damage out put is also really weak so we can't hardly keep up with her racking damage aganst us.the best tools we have in this match up are metal blades and crash bombs just to make to most mind games. We do have one thing going for us and that the rage effect. You better get good with Megaman's down smash or learn to punish with mega upper if u even want a chance aganst a good sheik. Also of note her grab has less start up lag and end lag then ours so megaman almost always lose the grab wars. The only thing megamans got going for him is his weight the nurture game for megamans might as well be us starting off with 60% damage before she knocks us to far back for her combos to do some real damage. Also of note that megaman has early kill moves so u want to have the rage effect before sheik kills u. Over all its just not a fun fight and it truly is in her favor. Its not a hopeless match up but no matter how u look at it u need to learn how to play mind games with Megaman's tools and learn when to use leaf shield.

If u think sheik is an easy match up you most likely haven't faced a good one yet.
 

Blade Knight

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I think the matchup is overall in Shiek's favor, but edgeguarding with the Leaf Shield is actually a legitimately good option. Leaf Shield->Footstool neutralizes any height she cuold get from her short Up B distance. Damage racking on Shiek is difficult and Mega Man is kind of combo fodder for her, but Jab, Nair, Bair, and Usmash are great tools against her. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber can also be abused since her grenades don't stop them and she can be forced to make mistakes. Up Tilt is also a disgustingly good kill move against Shiek. Timing one well against a short hopped Fair or a Dash Attack can lead to a kill around 60% on most stages.

Back Throw or anything that allows her to recover high is a bad idea, I think, since we haven't many options against that. Metal Blade, Fair, and Nair or Jab robbing her of height is a great option before committing with Leaf Shield or Back Air off stage. In general I feel this is a matchup where Mega Man's throws actually are pretty subpar for usage, especially when in other matchups he can abuse them so much. Down Throw->Up Air/Fair can still be decent, just be safe because she can easily throw out Bair, Nair or Fair as a reversal and lead to a big punish.

I live with a Shiek main, so I have a good amount of experience in this matchup. I'd say overall it's between 35:65 and 40:60 in Shiek's favor. Definitely not unwinnable but difficult for Mega Man. I can't really recommend a stage counterpick other than what you think the Shiek player doesn't like.

Edit:
One more thing, if you go to a stage with platforms and Shiek is trying to abuse mobility and platform control, with a single full hop go for a rising Fair->Falling Uair. This covers a lot of space and can be fairly safe, it also pressures Shiek to drop to your level. Alternatively, try perfect pivoting into a back air, maybe you can get a platform slide that forces her into a neutral get up where you can punish with whatever you want.
 
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Locke 06

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Edit:
One more thing, if you go to a stage with platforms and Shiek is trying to abuse mobility and platform control, with a single full hop go for a rising Fair->Falling Uair. This covers a lot of space and can be fairly safe, it also pressures Shiek to drop to your level. Alternatively, try perfect pivoting into a back air, maybe you can get a platform slide that forces her into a neutral get up where you can punish with whatever you want.
When they slip and fall, you can lock them with pellets 3 times and then charge a downsmash or time a utilt for when they get up.

I think going to a smaller stage like Battlefield might be to our advantage so that getting chained across the stage requires less hits, and therefore less %. I probably would not go to Duck Hunt or an omega with walls, because she can wall cling to wait for us as we recover, gimping us with the long lasting NAir if we go low, or jumping back to the stage quickly to BAir/UAir us if we go high.

I think using our FAir disjoint to challenge her aerials might be our best safe anti-air against her. I'm pretty sure we can weave in the air better than she can (accelerate/decelerate) so if she commits to an aerial approach and you can react, rising FAir might be a good choice.

If you can time the hard knuckle with the 1-frame of vulnerability during the ledge snap, we can edge guard her pretty well since the hard knuckle is a projectile with a lingering hitbox. This is something for all matchups, but definitely for teleporting recoveries like Sheik's.

Be wary of Vanish as a kill move. Dthrow>air dodge bait>vanish is a great setup due to Dthrow>Uair being a combo. Also, run off the stage vanish is something that is becoming more popular. Vanish and Usmash are her two kill moves that will kill around 100-120%. I'm pretty sure we're too short to get hit by the sweetspot of usmash standing, but we need to be careful of our landings due to her mobility.


How often do good Sheiks use grenades? I've started to learn Sheik and the only time I use them is to edge guard or in a situation where I can let one go as I grab the ledge.
 

Locke 06

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Yup. Double post time.

Sorry, I'm such an awful discussion leader. I haven't worked on any of the writeups that are still on my to do list. If someone wants to help, I'd be super appreciative, but you don't have to. I'll get them done eventually.

As for the next topic, we're going to get back to 4-day topics. Here's a matchup that has been touched upon in the general MU thread, and most users think it is quite solidly in our favor.

Head over to the Windy Hill Zone. We're going to talk about :4sonic:.

I'll edit this with some quotes that I find about the MU scattered on the forum when I get a chance. But to start things off.

Pellet = Spindash. Pellets > Spindash. Dtilt > Spindash. Usmash/utilt > Homing attack.
 

Fenrir VII

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way to summarize the entire matchup in the first post...

:awesome:

(but actually that's MOST of the interaction with a spammy sonic)
 

K-45

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Sonic is an interesting match up where you have to play SUPER defensive you already mention how to stop sonic in his tracks you just have to always make him approach. Never approach sonic just spam until he comes to you.

If you do approach him I find megamans best approach is an empty jump into a grab. But mixups are also good.

This is also a fight where you always want to stay on the ground. Sonic loves to punish his opponents when they can't block and be able to punish landing lag.

A few more tips
  • where megamans Fsmash is really good and is one of very very March ups where u can use it on stage.
  • Metal blades can be handy but not safe in this match up cuz sonic is one of a few characters that can punish his end lag.
  • Crash bombs is an excellent way to get sonic off your back.
  • Lead shield is very unsafe in this match MU cuz a lot of sonics moves are longer then marth sword....

Overall if u play hyper defensive and don't leave yourself open its not his worst match up. I will put is at 50/50 but sonic has an easier time in this match up but he can't do much aganst hyper defensive play and spam.

It feels like sonic is ganondorf 2.0 his play style mostly depends punishing his opponent and catching his opponent off guard. They both hate spam and hype defensive playstyle.
 

CopShowGuy

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Lots of things are > than Spin Dash. Mega Man's pellets stop all of them. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of experience with this match-up beyond a few For Glory matches so I'll have to not comment on this one.
 

jordanm43444

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From a Sonic main standpoint Megaman is a TOUGH MU to fight due to his plethora of projectiles.

We have NO safe approach for Megaman so we will rely on mindgames and baits to get you into us or to wait for a really good opening with the startup hop on sideb (Thats invincible btw but you can beat out every other part with anything)
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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Agreed. I haven't played a ton of Megaman's but it does seem to be a matchup of getting whacked with **** and needing to keep Megaman off balance. I can't say much but use pellets, jump cancel away or end in a grab to keep us guessing and in a getting juggled situation where you can gamble on hitting us I just wouldn't. Take the chance to return to neutral. Unless there are better ways to get around Mega's stuff that I don't know of it's probably your safest bet. Learn your punishes and learn your intercepts. If Sonic does ASC (aerial down b) at a range that's good for getting over lemons you can probably dash forward and upsmash. At worst I think you might eat a spring but then you'll have a decent advantage, especially with the surprising horizontal range on Usmash.
 

Terios the Hedgehog

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
6,452
Location
Shenandoah, PA
HAHAHA. I still haven't read those which is a crime as a Sonic and Megaman fan. I do have them though. Love that he actually calls them lemons. Why does he know what to disconnect?
 

MegaBlaster1234

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
138
NNID
Srib64
Slide just plain beats any approach using Spin Dash. It also dodges Homing Attack.
It's also advised to stop him with lemons and then move away since for some reason Sonic can jab you before you can shoot again. Leaf Shield is useful only if you shield and dodge while it's active. Most of the time Sonic will hit through the Leaf Shield.
 

ADAPT Chance

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
335
Location
Rhodesia [GTA]
NNID
Adaptchance
3DS FC
4613-8804-8708
Pellets, D-Tilt and U-Tilt are your main allies vs Sonic.

Leaf Shield can give you breathing room most of the time.
 
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