Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[meleebrawler]

Just played a good Bow Jr. in an online tourney. (ehh online, I know)

But this is so, incredibly, important. You can make it hard for Jr. to approach with the mechakoopa on the ground in neutral with metal blade (pierce) and then pick up the mechakoopa with ease. I used it really often, since my opponent spat out mechakoopas in neutral a lot, and it helped a ton. A TON.


I'm too tired to do research tonight. But we need to switch topics.

Thank you to @Potassium, @Duck SMASH!, and @divade for stopping by. Feel free to continue discussing the MU in our general MU thread, or even continue contributing to our future discussion topics.

Edit: if one of the Jr. mains could PM me the amount of health a mechakoopa has, that'd be wonderful. I feel like that's important thing to put in the summary that I'll eventually write.

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Original plan was to go to Bowser.

So we're going to go to Bowser.

Someone do research for me and post in their forum pls. I know there's a calm animal v ssguy video in the light labs video thread.

ty. goodnight.

If I was a Jr. player constantly getting my mechs picked up, I'd pick them up myself.

I'll just finish by mentioning Jr.'s customs:

For Cannonball he has a smaller, faster, weaker variant that pierces projectiles, as well as one that's
a windbox. Nothing that significant here.

His kart customs vastly change his play. Koopa Drift gives him insane horizontal recovery and more
safety on shield with the spin attack. Grounding Dash gives frame 1 full armour that can break juggles
and counter with burials.

Up B custom Meteor Ejection has the falling kart meteor and has some armour when Jr. ducks inside,
but he gains less height from the jump.

And for Down B, he can change the mechakoopa into a lobbing projectile with Impatient,
or forgo the whole stage control aspect for more throwing damage with Big Mechakoopa (these
ones don't blow up on contact, though).


As for Bowser, @ ChopperDave already mentioned stymied lemons and fortress punishes.
It should be noted that cannon hits can still stagger him, though they can be punished if shielded.
Crash Bomber is also pretty ineffective, though Danger Wrap once again saves the day by making
juggling Bowser extra easy. Otherwise if you're trying to juggle with Air Shooters, watch out
for the Bowser Bomb that won't be stopped unless you get the initial hits with hitstun.

Oh, and if Rock isn't careful with his projectiles, Bowser's Dash Slash can let him close
in at the blink of an eye.

 

[ChopperDave]

Bowser is surprisingly tough in my experience. Mega Man normally does really well against heavies but Bowser has got some nice tools going for him.

His Super Armor lets him charge right through lemons, so we have to forget everything we know about zoning with those, especially given how he can easily punish us for lemon overuse with the surprisingly good range on his attacks. His Flame Breath outranges lemons, too, making it pretty good for punishing our landings (i.e. we can't use lemons as well to simultaneously cancel landing lag and zone, like we can in other matchups). And of course, his UpB OOS makes approaching to close range a dangerous prospect.

The one good thing for us is that his recovery is predictable and relatively easy to gimp, so getting him offstage often means we can seal a stock.

Metal Blades are really important in this MU, both because they do extra damage to Bowser with him being so big, and because they will actually hitstun him reliably. It's important for Mega Man players to know how to use Metal Blades effectively here, and for Bowser players to know how to catch them and do some MB counter play.

Not really sure what ratio I'd give this one.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Bowser is, imo, one of the hardest of the big heavies (along with Zard)... but... he is still a big heavy, and Mega does very well against him/them, imo.

Metal Blade is centralizing in this matchup. He has a rough time avoiding it, and it gives us a free grab, utilt, etc on hit. as long as you avoid throwing it where he can dash attack catch it AND hit you, it's extremely good.
he has natural armor against pellets, but it behaves strangely... they can still cause stun (esp from point blank) and they tend to stuff a lot of his moves, so they're still useful... just not quite as useful as against most of the cast. the double jump lagless dair is also very good against him, as he isn't fast enough to punish it on reaction, and has to read it (which you can just...not do it if he jumps). Our semi-circle of zoning just seems to drive him nuts.

The real central point of this matchup (other than MB) imo is that Bowser has a very very hard time getting down once you get him in the air. uair can knock him out of down B and dair if you are ready for them, and his horizontal air speed is very poor, so really his only options against the uairs are jumping and trying to reposition (offstage, etc) which has its own set of risks, and air-dodging thru them (which you can punish with another uair, grab, usmash, utilt, etc)
Considering how much damage uair does, you can rack up tons of % without him ever getting a chance to get back to the stage.

Obviously, Bowser has ridiculous killpower, and I think that's where Mega gets in trouble. We tend to overreach with utilt, etc... and I'm sorry, but if you whiff, you die. So the key to the matchup is being incredibly patient and waiting for your MB setup to connect before trying for utilt (unless of course he attacks your shield). Essentially, keep poking with stuff (uncharged fsmash is great here) until you are guaranteed a kill hit, and Mega wins the matchup, imo.

Also we kill him early with utilt, and we can edgeguard the pants off him.

I put this as a 6-4+ for Mega.

 

[CopShowGuy]

That Tough Guy armor is tough to work around, but it only works when Bowser isn't attacking (or during his super armor attacks). He can still be stunned out of his attacks.

Still he's a big dude and Mega Man eats those for breakfast.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Sup, Megamains. Thanks for paging the King of Awesome!
I won't go over Tough Guy as everyone seems to have a good grasp on the important parts.

Let me just say that I LOVE the vs. MU. All of my experience comes from tournaments w/o customs legal and against a buddy of mine that is also a Megamain and who comes with me to tournaments. That being said, this is not an easy MU for either characters. Yes, will likely die early if he over-commits to his ground options. Yes, is a tasty piece of booty off-stage for you to smack down. Yes, metal blade and your standard tactic of dancing around us in the air will give you that nice advantage in neutral. However, as the match goes on, you need specific moves to either knock out of neutral or win the KO outright. A Bowser player will NEVER, EVER, challenge you from an air-to-ground situation unless you're just hiding in your shield. We know you want to land that Uair. We know you want to land Utilt on the ground. We know you want to convert a dash attack or metal blade + throw into your Fsmash/Bair/Dair edge-guard. What this means is that you'll end up facing a that patiently picks at you, who anticipates your edge guard, and who is significantly harder to kill because of it. Our Jab 1 to hit confirm and pivot tilts will become more common place, narrowing down the list of attacks with which you can freely pressure us with. In neutral, we will walk at you when it's unsafe to dash and shrink the distance until both parties are forced into a brutal guessing game. The longer the match goes on, the more begins to shine, and that's why this MU is so intense when both players know exactly what they're up against and what they're doing. This MU should, at best, give a slight advantage to due to an advantage in tools available in the neutral, but that advantage quickly evaporates as the match goes on and closes in.

I hope that all of you get the chance to face at a local tournament. There is so much this MU has to offer, and both characters are well rewarded for their mix-ups and mind-games. Thanks for taking the time to read this post and best of luck to all your current and future MU discussions!

That Tough Guy armor is tough to work around, but it only works when Bowser isn't attacking (or during his super armor attacks). He can still be stunned out of his attacks.

Tough Guy is passively active at all times. What you're experiencing is a clank. This will stop us in our tracks and can open us up to strong follow-ups if we're too close when we clank.

 

[Locke 06]

So, Bowser really wants to get into jab range for jab1/side-B/grab mixups. I don't know this matchup very much outside of a few friendlies where the Bowser expected me to approach & space me out with tilts while I just stayed outside of tilt range and peppered with MB/pellets. And then UAirs.

From your description, it seems like the neutral game is about even with Mega having tools to rack up chip damage but poor tools to transition into advantage while Bowser can somewhat ignore chip damage and wins when he gets into his optimal spacing range. What I think is missing from everyone's analysis is what happens when Bowser has the advantage? How good is he at keeping Mega from resetting/reversing momentum?

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'd say Metal Blade alone does transition from neutral to advantage because it forces Bowser to react while we are moving... if he shields/gets hit, we get at least a grab (assuming spacing), so that's a pretty powerful turnaround.

regarding your other point, This typically narrows down to "how does Mega get out of a juggle/landing punish against Bowser?". I actually think keeping advantage is among Bowser's strong suits due to his surprisingly decent ground speed, fast dash attack, command grab, large hitboxes, etc. Getting out of the air when there are platforms is even trickier because his usmash covers the entire stage (lawl)
Now all that said, Mega is actually pretty good at varying his landings.... thru B-reversing metal blade and leaf shield, Rush + 2nd bounce antics, landing with uair, retreating with pellets, throwing MB downward, etc.... we have a lot of options. So basically both players have a lot of options, Mega is definitely at the disadvantage, but Bowser doesn't have a guaranteed punishment option and has to run read options.

A favorite option of mine is just to retreat offstage and reset. Bowser doesn't have a great way to chase us, and has to try to punish our ledge getup, which is actually fairly hard for him because of our ledge jump pellet/MB options.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

What I think is missing from everyone's analysis is what happens when Bowser has the advantage? How good is he at keeping Mega from resetting/reversing momentum?

While is at optimal range, it's hard to shove him out unless you hit with metal blade, Dtilt, dash attack, or dash grab (your easiest ground punish tools in this MU imo). Generally, you want to hit with metal blade or your aerials and convert that into a reset, or Up B and attempt to reset with air shenanigans. When wins the neutral, is forced to respect . does not have the tools to approach a grounded from the air safely, mostly due to our OoS options and ground speed. When is off-stage, can opt to chase , which can be easier for than it sounds since you do have to commit to Up B at a certain time based on whether you're recovering high or low, or can flame breath for a safe 6-10% damage + a possible edge guard. Once is on the ledge, you need to be careful because we will look to hit with Dtilt and Bowser Bomb, both of which can hit you at the ledge and will close out the stock if it does. Firing pellets at us from the ledge tends to trigger Tough Guy unless you're moving towards us, which can be a bad thing if is already shielding. Metal blade from the ledge is a great mix-up, so use it if you think we're not expecting it.

Honestly, it's just as bad for you if has advantage as it is for us when has advantage.

 

[ChopperDave]

Yeah, when Bowser gets advantage it can be pretty rough.

The range on his fair and speed on his nair, and power on both, give them solid priority over MM's aerials and specials. MM's aerials, in general, have a blind spot at his 5 and 7 o'clock (except for Metal Blade, but that can be caught), and Bowser's aerials are good for taking advantage of that.

Also, his OoS UpB and his NeutralB seems to be a pretty solid punish for landing uair and nair. Bowser's DA and fair outprioritize Leaf Shield, too, though I'm not sure about Plant Barrier.

I feel like whenever I get into disadvantage in this MU, I have to respect Bowser's juggles more than he has to respect my antiair, and pray that I can mindgame him into whiffing so I can reset to neutral.

Of course, it's much the same for Bowser when he gets out into disadvantage. I agree with @ UltimaLuminaire 's assessment that this is a MU where neither player wants to be in disadvantage, which can lead to a lot of footsies as both are pretty happy to keep things in neutral.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

can't just bull-doze through your Bair, Dair, or Fair, with our aerials, but yes, if we manage an approach against your blind spot in the air, we can manage a trade or successful hit... assuming you're not just dancing around us in the air, attempting to land safely.

 

[Karsticles]

can't just bull-doze through your Bair, Dair, or Fair, with our aerials, but yes, if we manage an approach against your blind spot in the air, we can manage a trade or successful hit... assuming you're not just dancing around us in the air, attempting to land safely.

The air dance is so powerful here. Jump, double jump, up B. MM players should use all three of these to mess with Bowser's head and make safe getaways.

I find this matchup very difficult, but the MM player I play against is very unique in his gameplay. I wish I could get him to play some Bowser mains to help me figure him out...

 

[CopShowGuy]

Tough Guy is passively active at all times. What you're experiencing is a clank. This will stop us in our tracks and can open us up to strong follow-ups if we're too close when we clank.

I could have sworn that I've knocked Bowser out of attacks with lemons before. Perhaps I'm just crazy.
Also Mega Man has to REALLY be conservative/precise with his utilt. Whiffing that attack will get you a Bowser dropkick (fsmash) to the...everything.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ CopShowGuy Lemons will effect Bowser at close range, and the arm canon will knock Bowser away for an instant reset.

 

[Blade Knight]

I don't enjoy playing this matchup as Mega Man, but it's fully in his favor I would say. Up air and grabs neuter Bowser, and while Tough Guy is a bother it's not that gamechanging. Off stage play is still in Mega Man's favor as well. The biggest issue I see with it is trading. If Bowser can force trades or punish at all we're basically put at disadvantage. We have more opportunities for damage, but if Bowser capitalizes on the openings he makes he'll catch up almost instantly. He's easy to juggle and gimp but on stage play can easily be in his control if you don't play particularly safe and well.

I tend to just switch to Dr. Mario or Wario for this matchup, I find those much easier to play even if they technically aren't as favorable.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing Mega Man at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to say, regarding the Rosalina vs. Mega Man match-up, Mega Man's discussion period will last until the end of 3/27.

 

[Greward]

Bowser isn't bad against MM, actually. I still believe MM has an advantage tho, but he has the tools to win this.

While our best range is usually pellet range, in this MU is the range where bowser wants to be. If he's too far away we got MB, and at pellet range he can punish our MB attempts (and he ignores pellets and crash bomb due to Tough Guy).
His grab outranges our and our ways to break free from pellet range against bowser is either dash grab / dash shield / jumpin shenanigans. As his grab has a great range he will outrange and beat any of our land approach (altho it's still possible to bait a grab or something with some footsies). If we jump high into the air we have the chance to reset to neutral or get an up air in, but at the same time we risk getting caught when landing. And his Fair / up air are good at catching people above him.

Whenever any char breaks the neutral, we both got big punishes on each other. MM has got great gimp tools in bair mostly and up air on stage can be deadly. Dair will lose to up air but I think (not sure) down B won't get hit out of it (not like down B is a good option there tho). I think MM got the advantage because he has more tools to get back to neutral game than Bowser has. If bowser wins the neutral, well he's bowser and that's gonna be some strong hits. He got some good edgeguard too if we're running the predictable Rush in the form of dtilt and down B (and flame breath can also be annoying).

Killing is usually an issue for mega man but we can get bair edgeguard pretty solidly in this matchup so it's not that bad. Since bowser has some laggy stuff getting a kill onstage isn't that hard either, although he's heavy. Whiffing a laggy move probably means MM is dead tho so i'd save those moves just for punishing.

With customs on i'd take Danger Wrap always.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Well, everything said here just globaly gets the essence of what this MU is all about : keeping within your lemon range when you want to pressure him, or try to play the keepaway as much as possible when you get pressured.
With customs being a thing, I think Ice Slasher & Plant Barrier are maybe our best options ( Hyper Bomb is viable, but we lose our MB tricks. Shadow Blade could still be the grand winner because inmidrangzoning=bad zoning for Bowzy :-p ). Ice Slasher is slow, but it can simply freeze and launch him upwards, giving us more breathing room, and Plant Barrier's ondulation makes it a bit easier to get in 's face.
Now, this is only theories... I wonder is some guys from the boards could try to play some matches with some of us (me excluded).

 

[Locke 06]

Today is the last day for bowser. Tomorrow we'll stay in the mushroom kingdom, but we'll have a bit of a surprise.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ahh, now why don't we have set deadlines and topics for our MU thread? We really just bring up a character we lost to recently and have a short review of how best to deal with said character.

Now, this is only theories... I wonder is some guys from the boards could try to play some matches with some of us (me excluded).

I'd love to have a match as Bowser. If nothing else, I'm quite curious about what Mega Mains have come up with since I stopped playing him. Please, send me a message.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Well, that's exactly why i said "except me" !
I can't play Sm4sh right now because :

 

[Locke 06]

Moving on! Thanks @ UltimaLuminaire and @ Karsticles for your insightful posts. You're welcome anytime to the Mega Man boards and if you ever want to continue talking about the Bowser v Mega Man matchup, I encourage you to do so in the general MU thread we have.

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Staying in the Mushroom Kingdom, we're going to extend the Rosalina boards' discussion of the Mega Man MU to here.
Mmmhm!

Required reading:
http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-vs-mega-man.380230/page-22

Optional reading:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-do-you-beat-rosalina-with-mega-man.377742/ and the many posts on the Rosalina MU in the general thread that I don't want to dig up.

Since the Rosas have already started, we'll try and finish this up by Sunday.

For those who have already posted in the Rosa MU thread, there's no need to reiterate if you're just going to say the same thing. However, responding to new ideas/posts is encouraged. Those who are new to the discussion should read what has already been discussed before posting.

(And if someone wants to sort through the Light Capsule thread for MM v Rosa videos, that'd be nice).

 

[Fenrir VII]

Just going to say that general consensus from the Rosa board was 4-6 to 6-4 in both of their favors... so averaging around an even 5-5 matchup in general.

That range seems right to me, although I'll still call it a small Mega adv. personally.

 

[ChopperDave]

We didn't talk much about customs in that the Rosalina boards thread, so maybe we can discuss those more here. I've never played against a good Rosalina with customs on, but I played around a bit with her in training mode and here is some /theorycraft:

• Crash Bomber vs. Luma Warp seems... bad for us. Luma Warp just so happens to send Luma out the same length as our ideal Crash Bomber spacing. So if we go for a Crash Bomber, Ros can theoretically teleport Luma on top of us and thwack us during the endlag. With really good timing she can teleport Luma so that he body-blocks the Crash Bomber as it's leaving our armcannon, stunning us and leaving us wide open for a followup.

• Shooting Star Bit is cancelled by lemons, so it doesn't seem like a big deal. However, it does travel far, so Ros can use it to force approaches and gimp double jumps, which is bad.

• Tornado Hold seems like it could be really good for us as an anti-Luma. If you catch Luma with it, he will be stunned and high above the stage for a good long time. If you're even remotely near the ledge, TH ->Nair=dead Luma.

• Skull Barrier seems kind of eh. You'd only be taking it to counter Shooting Star Bit, as Ros is almost guaranteed to take Luma Warp. And I don't really think SSB is worth reflecting most of the time.

• Danger Wrap seems like a handy choice in this MU. Rosalina has a weakness against juggling, and Mega Man's juggle and edgeguarding game with DW and TH gets pretty beastly. DW can also get into he Gravitational Pull dead zone, which is cool.

• Not sure about Shadow Blade. Could potentially be pretty useful for kill setups, and Metal Blade isn't as handy here as it is in other MUs due to Gravitational Pull.

I feel like 1321(3) or 3321(3) are probably our optimal loadouts here.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Locke 06 : You might want to fix up your table on the primary post, as it seems that Lucina's icon is missing.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Locke 06 : You might want to fix up your table on the primary post, as it seems that Lucina's icon is missing.

My OP is a mess. Absolute and utter mess. I must have deleted the note about fixing Lucina's missing icon. I stole the table from Locuan, the Lucina mod, a while ago which is why that happened. I've very recently started typing up summaries and cleaning it up on a google doc, so I can work on it away from home, but it is slow and motivation to work on it comes and goes.

Thanks for your concern. ^_^

 

[Parcheesy]

Howdy. While I'm definitely not the custom specialist with Rosalina, I've been on the receiving end of enough of Mega's tricks to offer suggestions for what's most annoying for her.

- Crash bomb will never be a bad option, and personally, I think it's his best in this particular matchup. Being able to send Luma into freefall, even on smaller shields is pretty damn useful. It's a strong incentive to keep Rosalina from mindlessly charging forward, slowing down the match in Mega's favor.

- Dangerwrap is useful in that it gives Megaman the perfect option to cover Rosalina's preferred avenue of approach, diagonally above. It kills off the top too, so that's swell. Using it removes a lot of the pressure Megaman puts on Luma's life, and gives Rosalina a better avenue of approach from the ground.

- As for custom down b's, none of his options really wowed me. Ledgehogging with leaf shield is usually a minor inconvenience, so I'm inclined to suggest that one.

- Also, I'd never say the Luma bit is useless. Part of its appeal is it makes Luma's position almost always useful. If the Luma is on the other side of the stage behind Megaman, I'd much rather use it to pelt him with projectiles than risk using one of Rosalina's laggiest moves to call him back.

Oh, and what Fenrir said in the Rosalina forum is true, with two parties of roughly equal skill, this matchup is an absolute blast to play. So if anyone wants to give the matchup some practice, I'll make time for it.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Rosalina can Grav. Pull Shadow Blade and keep it for herself. She has to shorthop the attack but I still wouldn't suggest using that attack against her.

 

[---]

My OP is a mess. Absolute and utter mess. I must have deleted the note about fixing Lucina's missing icon. I stole the table from Locuan, the Lucina mod, a while ago which is why that happened. I've very recently started typing up summaries and cleaning it up on a google doc, so I can work on it away from home, but it is slow and motivation to work on it comes and goes.

Thanks for your concern. ^_^

If you ever need help feel free to ask. Though I guess I should focus on fixing the Basic Moveset Guide first...after my Senior Thesis is due.

 

[meleebrawler]

Rosalina can Grav. Pull Shadow Blade and keep it for herself. She has to shorthop the attack but I still wouldn't suggest using that attack against her.

It's not possible to hold a Shadow Blade what are you talking about?

 

[CopShowGuy]

It's not possible to hold a Shadow Blade what are you talking about?

It is. I heard it here and had to try it out with a friend. Grav. Pull causes the Shadow Blade to move towards Rosalina and fall to the ground. It disappears if it touches the ground, but if Rosalina jumps and then pulls it, she can actually catch it before she lands. Mega Man then can't throw another until the existing one is lost. Rosalina can throw it and recatch it using the same trick because the blade acts like it should when thrown.

...except sometimes when she throws it, it behaves like a Metal Blade and just disappears after moving forward for a while.

 

[Locke 06]

If you ever need help feel free to ask. Though I guess I should focus on fixing the Basic Moveset Guide first...after my Senior Thesis is due.

School>smash. Don't worry about it, and you've got plenty to do. I'll get my stuff together, at the very least I'll update the OP for everything other than the summaries. Summaries take about 20-45 minutes depending on how focused I am, so it shouldn't take too long.

But like... Taxes too. Lol #imanadult

Last day of Rosalina. Of the things not stated, Rosalina likes low ceilings because Luma's up air is dumb. Other than that, she's generally stage proof as far as counter picks go.

 

[Parcheesy]

Personally, I like anything with a platform, low ceilings feel like a wash because I'm mostly dying off the top as well. Halberd is nice because we get the best of both worlds, after that counterpick, I'd aim for Battlefield, T&C, Smashville, and maybe...just maybe Lylat. Being able to approach Megaman from diagonally below him while having handy dandy platforms to catch Metalblades makes Rosalina's pressure rise quite a bit.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah I'd never let Rosa go to BF. Period. The rest of the stages have trade offs for both chars, but both are pretty stage proof.

If I am banning off the anthers ladder stages, I'm definitely getting rid of BF, then choosing between halberd (constant campable platform and low ceilings), Delfino (water hurts our recovery and she can spike), Lylat (platforms, although the edges hurt her recovery more than ours and there's more space than BF, and T&C (no real explanation, but she seems to do well there)

I'd personally ban BF, halberd, and Delfino, but I'm not too scared of anything else.

For our CP, I really like FD, duck hunt, castle siege and skyloft. I think smashville is the most neutral stage in the matchup

 

[Locke 06]

Skyloft is Mega's best stage. Large with a ton of platform coverage.

Shoutout to El Nacho for stopping by from the Rosalina forum. Not a lot of discussion here, but there was plenty on the Rosalina boards for people to get a decent idea of how the MU plays out.

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Ask and you shall receive:
until Friday.

Shine on.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

I've been waiting for Fox for sooo looong.

Fox is a monster. He combos us for days, his recovery is difficult for us to punish, and his speed gets him in very easily. He is definitely one of our toughest match ups, but Mega Man still has the tools to win. Your best friends in this match up are your shield and your pellets.

Fox will dash attack to get past your pellets. It is ESSENTIAL that you learn how to properly jump n' shoot. Once he is anywhere closer than max pellet range, you should jump backwards while shooting or shield. Otherwise, he'll get in and ruin you. The last thing you want is to get hit by an Utilt at low percent. You CAN get out at below ~15% by shielding but getting hit anywhere after that will rack up your damage till ~50%. Fox's moves just tend to seamlessly string into one another, so shield should really be abused.

The reason you shouldn't be too worried about being grabbed is because Fox's grab is pretty bad. With good DI, none of his throws lead into anything except at low percent. None of his throws kill either, which is why you'll find yourself off stage a lot but never dying because, as it turns out, his edge guarding game isn't that great. We're going to take advantage of that as much as possible.

Fox's recovery is tricky and annoyingly good. Mega Man lacks any long lasting hitboxes and has very few hitboxes that hit the ledge, but we can still do some serious damage. If Fox uses Side B towards the ledge, we only have one consistent move to guard that, which is Dtilt. Z-dropped Metal Blade can hit consistently if your timing is on point, and Leaf Shield can hit it, but it is inconsistent. We have a lot more fun if Fox tries to land on stage with Side B. If he goes above you, Usmash catches it perfectly. If he goes in front of you Fsmash stuffs it completely. Pellets can interrupt it and make him fall below the ledge, ready for you to stage spike Bair or go for the Dair. Firefox has a hitbox all around it, which makes it harder to go for any Leaf Shield shenanigans. Fox can stall his recovery with his reflector, which can mess up your timing of Fsmash, allowing him to Side B through you unharmed. If your spacing is off, you can even get it reflected back at you. There are tons of creative ways you can go about edge guarding Fox, but every method has to be precise or else Fox will come back and maybe even get the advantage.

Mega Man wins if both he and Fox are in the air. Fox's aerial mobility is pretty poor and we can out space him fairly well. Mega Man has trouble landing, however, and can be caught fairly easily by Fox's dash attack. We have a blind spot below & to the side of us. In a situation like this, try to expend your double jump or Rush and aim towards center stage, because that will give you the most options for landing. Remember to mix up your landing by B-Reversing Leaf Shield. If Fox is the one trying to land, we can either shield his aerial (most likely nair) and grab, challenge him with a Fair or Bair, or catch his landing with one of our many projectiles.

I would prefer Final Destination against Fox. I am an advocate for Battlefield being a great Mega Man stage, but BF gives Fox more places to land his Side B and he seems to pressure the platforms really well with SHFF Uairs.

Finally, respect his Usmash. Also, shield shield shield. And pellet.

 

[D0U8leB]

Have been following the thread for quite some time, but haven't contributed that much though... Senior thesis

For the Fox MU my strategy is usually the following:

Approaching/Neutral
I approach most of the time with diag down MB's and pellets. To counter his approach I usually use receding bairs or fairs. Otherwise use OoS Upsmash. A good Fox blocks most MB approaches, but do have a hard time with pellets. Even if he got a reflector, he only use them against predictable MB or Fsmashes.
An aggresive Fox is usually the one I have a hard time with... so I usually stay back or counter it with LS.

Edgegaurding
His UpB is slow and gimpable. So if I have the chance I Bair him into the stage or LS footstool him. For his horizontal recovery with side B, I usually go for pellets or MB.

Recovery
His nair has quite the active frames, so he can cover the neutral edge recovery. The jump recovery is optional, but his uair is quite dangerous @ high percentage. So given the situation, I usually roll on the stage or jump back on with nair.

Gameplan
Hit him with projectiles to get some percentage and keep him away most of the time. If he does close in, I go for spot dodge grabs, LS or z-drop MB's. Make sure you have stage control, get him off stage and go for edgegaurd or gimp kills. He is a fast faller, so some air combos don't always work.

Kill percentages (FD stages, training mode; rage, stale or DI not accounted for):
Utilt: 72%
Dsmash: 79%
Bair (on end of platform): 90%
Fsmash (on end of platform): 93%
Usmash: 110%
Bthrow (on end of platform): 104%
Bair (center stage): 122%
Fsmash (center stage): 125%

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fox's aerial mobility is trash. This makes him have a really hard time getting through pellets, as he doesn't really have the option of jumping over it.
Fox has good damage output and above average killing tools, but we significantly win the killing war here, as long as we can land something (even bair). Also we can dthrow > bair > bair string him into other things, utilt starts killing around 70.

regarding edgeguarding.. Let me start with Fox. When we go low, he has nothing that can edgeguard us off-stage except for falling nair (which won't kill in most cases) and falling bair (which requires remarkable timing and us missing a tech to hit/kill). I could see him trying rising 2nd jump dair or even fair, but those still require timing and likely won't kill. He mainly likes to stay on stage and try to cover ledge getup options.

When we're edgeguarding... Fox has a lot of options, but none of them is undefendable. illusion is punishable on prediction or reaction (depending on spacing), and Firefox can be hit out of the startup and the travel path.
If you chip him out of an illusion (which is far harder to edgeguard than Firefox), you force him to Firefox low, which is a nair/fair/dair/salad gimp kill for you. He is typically forced to Illusion just above stage height or to the ledge, due to its long cooldown (he doesn't want to go high with it just to be a sitting duck for a second or so after it ends).

Fox's flexibility of being able to firefox and illusion at different times to throw off opponents actually makes him pretty hard to edgeguard for most opponents. He can Firefox above the ledge and go downwards to snap to it or upwards onto the stage... or he can just illusion at the same location, etc. imo, Megaman is easily one of the best chars at edgeguarding him in the game, because he doesn't have to play this guessing game. Instead of guessing the timing of above ledge illusion vs above ledge firefox, Mega can simply throw a metal blade (or pellet... or even leaf shield) and cover both options. Then you have time to move and cover the illusion to the ledge with a falling nair, or react to a low firefox. (This is kind of how Samus has edgeguarded Fox with missiles etc in every Smash game)
I said a while back that Mega Man feels specifically designed to counter Fox's recovery options... this is what I mean by that. We're able to throw a Metal Blade to cover the high options, falling nair to cover the low, and then a number of options to finish the stock. You can also try to position yourself as a falling barrier to cover all illusion paths using leaf shield, but I've had fairly random success with that. sometimes he just passes through it... sometimes I get a kill, so I'm not sure how reliable it is.

I love love love uair in this match. Again, Fox's horizontal mobility isn't good, so he has a heck of a time getting around it without burning an air-dodge (and then eating another uair or usmash). As such, I personally love BF (or as I call it, the wind fortress), because it is so easy to platform trap with uair and land it. It also helps that uair links with itself and does an easy 10-20% (when again, your target is 70%)


I think this match is a solid 6-4 for mega man. That said, I would consider using Fox against another Mega just to avoid the ditto. I think Fox is a very solid char with good killmoves and damage potential, but I definitely don't think he wins this matchup. Mega's edgeguarding options are amazing against him, our uair allows us to put on damage, and our kill moves work really early.... so this becomes a "if you keep up with him or get a gimp, you win" type matchup, and I think that is consistently doable.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Alright, I know I haven't contributed much to this thread, but the Megaman Vs. Fox match-up is one that I can honestly say I have quite a bit of experience in, considering that I live with a Fox main whose Fox is actually quite developed.

I'll start off by saying that I definitely feel Fox has advantage here. The match-up is at least a 4-6 match-up from our perspective, if not even more polarizing.

Megaman's weight and fall-speed tend to make him a combo target for Fox once he gets in past the lemons, and his speed is more than enough to do so. Once he's in, he can rack up damage really quickly, meanwhile, we tend to struggle to keep the damage output at an even pace.

It's entirely possible for a Fox to rack up around 50-60 damage or more from combos and strings in a matter of a few seconds. Our best bet to even a % gap would be:

• Well-spaced lemons
• Vanilla Metal Blades
• Thrown Item Metal Blades
• Grabs (Most preferably, Up-throw or Down-throw, since both can lead into strings. Back-throw to finish their stock.)
  
• Spaced F-airs and B-airs
• Smash Reads (but only if you can properly read/predict their movements. Whiffing a Smash attack is deadly against Fox.)
  
• And if you can land it, most definitely Up-Air, especially from close range.

Now, Fox has a lot of combos and kill set-ups on Megaman. Here are a few to watch out for.

Watch out for:

• Jab-Jab combo. Fox can combo us with the first two hits of his jab repeatedly. Can trap us at lower percents. I suggest using Rush or mid-air jump to escape if you're caught in mid-air. Occasionally we can perfect shield before he can really get this combo going, assuming our feet are on the ground.
  
• Jab-Jab Grab or Jab-Jab Upsmash. Fox can mix it up with a grab if he feels we'll escape the combo. At higher percents around 90%, he can finish off opponents with Jab-Jab Upsmash, but I feel we can escape this with a mid-air jump or Rush if timed correctly.
• Dash-Attack Set-Ups. At lower percents, this can combo into up-tilt, which combos into itself. At higher percents, he can follow up with an aerial of choice, usually Up-air to finish the stock. Sometimes B-air.
• Lagless Illusion Set-ups. Fox can reduce the end lag on his side-B by using a short-hop right before it. He can use this to get inside, past the pellets, and then follow with Up-tilt or his Jab-Jab combo. If we're actually hit by it, he can follow up with an aerial like Up-Air to close the stock.
• Forward-Air to Up-Smash. If we're caught in mid-air by Fox's Forward Air, he can actually drag us down to the floor by Fast-Falling in mid-animation and then hit us with a guaranteed Up-Smash. This will obviously end the stock at high-percents. This is usually done from either short-hop height to full-hop height off the ground.
• Ledge-Trump Set-Ups. If Fox ledge-trumps Megaman, he can follow up with a Back-air into an Edge Guard situation or just close the stock altogether. This can be avoided by fast-falling before he can land his aerial, or by preventing a ledge-trump altogether by getting up onto stage. Not sure if we can ledge-trump Fox with our own Back-Air though. Needs further testing.

Meanwhile, to my knowledge, Megaman doesn't seem to have very many kill set-ups on Fox. A lot of our kills are mostly reactionary to what Fox does, not counting B-air. We can semi-force approaches from mid-range, but Reflector and Laser Spam are a pretty good answer to that. Especially since Fox can actually jump/roll out of his reflector animation the moment he successfully reflects something.

Fox definitely has an easier time controlling the pace of the match. I would say this is a 4-6 match-up in favor of Fox. An uphill battle for Megaman.

Also, most of this info is from vanilla matches only, no customs.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fox can't just illusion past the pellets unless he goes over or under them, he has no invincibility in that move.
Also notice how none of Fox's kill setups involve a grab, so shielding at dangerous percents is usually pretty
safe against him. His short-hop aerials can be caught by Spark Shock pretty easily, too.

While Fox's attack speed forces Megaman (and pretty much everyone else) to stay on his toes, it's
not too difficult to beat Fox if you play smart.

 

[Rush 2112]

Fox can't just illusion past the pellets unless he goes over or under them, he has no invincibility in that move.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...&v=9G_0R37HD_A&feature=player_detailpage#t=37

If you shoot a lemon just as Fox is about to hit you, so basically a standing sweet spot, Fox can "invince" his way through. But it doesn't happen too often.

Only thing I can really add is that UpB can sometimes get you out of a few of his combos.