Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Lanzoma]

Now let's talk about utilt. If you aerial a shield, we can utilt (we can also beat an aerial without shield due to invincibility). If you roll and we read it, we can utilt. If you throw a PK fire and we SH'ed on prediction, we can land utilt. if you magnet and we haven't shot a pellet, we can utilt. If you PKT2 onstage or try to use it as an attack, we can utilt. If we land a down45 Metal Blade off a full hop, we can utilt. another big one... if you try to juggle us with PKT and miss for some reason, either by an air dodge or anything else, you're eating an utilt.

A good Ness is not going to be doing ANY of those things. U-tilt is amazing, no doubt, but it is also a high-risk / high-reward move; if you miss, you can easily be the one getting KO'd instead.

PKT is really hard to punish if used correctly because they can threaten PKT2 or hit the ground and either be too far or recover too quickly. You would have to correctly read what the Ness is going to do AND bait him into doing the wrong thing, which can easily end up in death once again.

On paper I used to think the same thing, that Megaman would do great vs Ness, but after trying it out I've experienced pretty much what @ Noa. has said. The only thing I would add is that Megaman is generally very good at edgeguarding and vs Ness it's no exception. Challenging PKT is way too risky in this game, but MB and d-air both cause PKT2 to be shortened (IIRC), and both are safe options for that. No idea if lemons do that too.

 

[Greward]

This is a very campy matchup on Mega Man's side. We can't really try and fight Ness with aerials / grab because his aerials are better and super good overall. Might be because I'm actually kind of an aggro player but I don't like this matchup nor I do think we win it.

PK fire is punishable but its quite good against a Mega Man trying to land, also if they get a PK fire its probably going to be a big punish. He comboes us hard because of our weight, luckily ness isn't all that fast so he doesn't have the easiest time grabbing us. Magnet can be cancelled if it absorbs something so we shouldnt punish it if they do it right, although its kind of risky on their side.
Ness bat reflector is good against MB / Crash bomb and they should use it. If Ness reflects a crash bomber and it gets launched on to Mega Man its time for Ness to go on the aggresion because that reflected crash bomber does some insane damage on shield and we can't really go into the air to airdodge it against Ness.
Ness has way better kill moves, i usually end up waiting for the Bthrow kill in this matchup because if we miss a smash/uptilt we're dead at very low %. Bthrow also can be a setup for a Bair edgeguard kill so it's pretty legit.
We can gimp Ness recovery relatively easy so we're good there.
It's very hard to contest Ness in an aerial battle and I recommend avoiding it. While our Fair and Bair are legit moves we will usually end up losing, and his punishes should be harder than ours.

Big stages are the best for Mega Man in this matchup imo because we have more room to camp. Skyloft / Wuhu are pretty legit counterpicks if legal because we can camp better there and look out for a time out (which I find legit in this matchup seeing how risky our kill options are).

 

[Fenrir VII]

ok let's be honest... you are saying that "good players" will never roll (even when under pressure of not being able to approach), never miss a spacing on a moving shield, never get guessed on a ledge stand/roll up. And you yourself said you would juggle with PKT, so you are saying you'll never miss that on a moving opponent that can airdodge

...ok

Let me put it this way. Utilt's range is roughly equal to your grab range. you are saying that your bthrow and uair are better kill options by a significant amount than all of Mega's options... but you still haven't described a way that you will reliably be able to approach and grab... so I assume you mean that you will be grabbing landings / read rolls / ledge getups / etc without giving Mega the same consideration.

RE: the bair discussion... bair is an extremely good WOP tool that isn't hard to hit standing opponents with. I really don't know where that's coming from. I'm talking a landing bair, which is used after downward metal blades, z-drops, or after a FH bair to cover a jump attempt. It's a poke, but it works.

RE: the metal blade. we can fullhop and throw a MB downward at 45 and then follow it to see what you do. if you shield it, we get a grab. If you aerial it, we get a fair. if you get hit by it, we get an utilt. the MB > utilt combo is confirmed from that position, or from a ledge hop. The initial blade throw is fairly spacing dependent, but we can adapt to what you do to try to punish it (again you are starting at roughly pellet range) and not throw the blade if it's unsafe. and if we miss... no big deal because we can try again.


Point being from all of this... we have utilt setups off punishes, reads, predictions, and random hits. My point was that you are underselling our killpower... I still believe that.

 

[Noa.]

This is a very campy matchup on Mega Man's side. We can't really try and fight Ness with aerials / grab because his aerials are better and super good overall. Might be because I'm actually kind of an aggro player but I don't like this matchup nor I do think we win it.

PK fire is punishable but its quite good against a Mega Man trying to land, also if they get a PK fire its probably going to be a big punish. He comboes us hard because of our weight, luckily ness isn't all that fast so he doesn't have the easiest time grabbing us. Magnet can be cancelled if it absorbs something so we shouldnt punish it if they do it right, although its kind of risky on their side.
Ness bat reflector is good against MB / Crash bomb and they should use it. If Ness reflects a crash bomber and it gets launched on to Mega Man its time for Ness to go on the aggresion because that reflected crash bomber does some insane damage on shield and we can't really go into the air to airdodge it against Ness.
Ness has way better kill moves, i usually end up waiting for the Bthrow kill in this matchup because if we miss a smash/uptilt we're dead at very low %. Bthrow also can be a setup for a Bair edgeguard kill so it's pretty legit.
We can gimp Ness recovery relatively easy so we're good there.
It's very hard to contest Ness in an aerial battle and I recommend avoiding it. While our Fair and Bair are legit moves we will usually end up losing, and his punishes should be harder than ours.

Big stages are the best for Mega Man in this matchup imo because we have more room to camp. Skyloft / Wuhu are pretty legit counterpicks if legal because we can camp better there and look out for a time out (which I find legit in this matchup seeing how risky our kill options are).

Hey Greward. Good job at making it out of first wave of pools at Apex.

I find it interesting that you find yourself having a difficult time with Ness's Aerials. Which of Ness's aerials do you find yourself losing to most often when you jump into the air?

 

[Locke 06]

Alright, due to my laziness the amount of activity this MU has been getting and APEX being last weekend, we're going to extend this topic until Friday. Congrats to both Mega Man and Ness players for repping their characters very strongly at APEX. Everyone is welcome to participate in the discussion and we would gladly accept your inputs.

Re my favorite move (utilt): it is a punish move. Risky? Yes. But it is such a good move that it demands respect. Being afraid to use it is a tough mindset to get out of, but recognizing the opportunities that are there is important.

The reason why I find it so important in this MU is because Ness has such a hard time getting through the zoning wall. Mega Man can allow you to get through when he thinks he can read you. Similarly to throwing a MB 45° down, if you're conditioned to respect that option, he can empty jump grab (or read a shield drop> utilt if he feels that confident).

Mega Man controls the pace of this match, which allows for him to make more reads than Ness. While ness can punish a missed read attempt, the initiative favors Mega Man.

 

[Noa.]

ok let's be honest... you are saying that "good players" will never roll (even when under pressure of not being able to approach), never miss a spacing on a moving shield, never get guessed on a ledge stand/roll up. And you yourself said you would juggle with PKT, so you are saying you'll never miss that on a moving opponent that can airdodge

...ok

I never said that good players will never roll. I said that good players roll very rarely. My keeping rolls to a minimum, it makes it difficult to get a hard read on. And using Mega Man's utilt does require a hard read.

Ness's aerials don't even need to be spaced perfectly on Mega Man's shield. As long as Ness is performing uair, nair or bair and is retreating with them you will not have enough time to drop shield and utilt. Utilt's hitbox is quite petite. You would have to walk forward after our aerial hitting your shield and Ness's aerials are not laggy enough to be punished that way. We would have to be on top of your shield for you to be able to drop shield utilt. And that just requires poor play honestly.

And I conceded that Mega Man is scary when Ness is on the ledge. That's for almost any character in the game however. Returning on stage from the ledge is really difficult, and at high percents more often than not you will die trying to make it back. It works the same for Ness and Megaman in this matchup.

And I never said that we wouldn't miss a pk thunder when we're juggling. If we do we can get utilted.

If we make huge mistakes than we can get punished by utilt and then die. Ness's bthrow is a much better kill move.

Let me put it this way. Utilt's range is roughly equal to your grab range. you are saying that your bthrow and uair are better kill options by a significant amount than all of Mega's options... but you still haven't described a way that you will reliably be able to approach and grab... so I assume you mean that you will be grabbing landings / read rolls / ledge getups / etc without giving Mega the same consideration.

Yes Ness's bthrow and uair are much better at killing than Mega Man's KO moves. Ness has the best KO moves in the game. I would say out of all the high tiers, the only character that is better at killing than Ness is Diddy. Ness's kill power is his biggest strength, and something that he has almost everyone.

Having the best kill throw in the game is like stupid ridiculous. Bthrow is amazing. I can't believe you're trying to imply that utilt is as good as bthrow.

Ness's grab and Mega Man's utilt are very similar in range and startup. Why is a ko throw better?

It can be used out of a dash. That means that you can punish ay more things with a grab than you can with utilt. If you aren't on top of them or aren't in range to walk up and utilt them as a punish, then you can't land utilt. If you make a mistake and are in range for a dash grab, you're dead. Having a mobile kill option cannot be underestimated. You can do it out of a dash or a pivot with no lag. It makes landing a grab easier since you have different ways to access it.

You're mentioning how easy it is to use utilt oos to punish Ness? Well grab is an OoS option that doesn't need to go through 8 frames of shield drop lag to use.

And the most important reason as to why a kill throw is more potent than your utilt is because grabs go through shields. Shield comes out on frame 1. Your utilt gets beat by shield, and is extremely punishable on shield. Our grab goes through shield.

Being able to use a grab out of dash or pivot, out of a shield with no shield drop lag, and being able to go through shields makes a kill throw much much more deadly than your utilt. Like your utilt is a very decent and strong kill move. But how can it even compare to Ness's bthrow? Ness's bthrow is THE best kill throw in the entire game, and one of the best KO moves in the entire game. Mega Man's utilt doesn't compare.

 

[Fenrir VII]

note that I'm not saying utilt = bthrow, or really even comparing the utility of them. I'm trying to give a comparison of the size of utilt's hitbox vs Ness's grab because they're very similar. Shield drop > utilt does not have as small of range as you are saying. It's not huge, but it'll hit your not perfectly spaced aerials on shield (or even your spaced landing Nair, etc).

My entire point here is that Ness can't grab Mega Man reliably. period. You can talk about the killpower of it, etc, but he cannot approach thru projectiles, so he cannot reliably land a grab. Your killpower is directly linked to your grab (or random hit uairs), so explicitly stating (as several people have) that Ness will kill earlier than Mega is directly dependent on Ness being able to grab Mega, which again, nobody has come up with how that will happen.

Now I realize that in a real-life match, mistakes will be made on both parts. You will land grabs off Mega Man being dumb and things will go down that path. But then I list things that some of which will happen in a real-life match and I get told "oh good players won't do that". So now I'm forced to argue completely theoretical "perfect" play from both sides, and Mega never approaches if Metal Blade doesn't hit. Ness can't ever get in and his only consolation is trying to read jumps with fair or punish landings. Meanwhile Mega Man enjoys life 2% at a time, baits shields and gets grabs, and eventually kills from a random hit bair, gimp, or bthrow.... assuming the metal blade setup never worked into utilt and Mega can't land an usmash.

in this theory-land, the matchup looks much, much better for Mega Man than it plays out IRL currently... because mistakes ARE made, and Ness has an easier time landing grab off a mistake than we do an utilt, etc.
But keep in mind the Mega metagame is very young. utilt tech is still coming in, and we are beginning to use it reliably. I am simply stating that (going back to your original point) the killing difference does not offset the neutral difference (especially when you throw in gimps, which I have mostly ignored for several posts)... simply because you have to get through the neutral to land your killing setup.

I originally stated that this matchup was "at least a 6-4" which translates to a matchup that the better player will win, but similar skill-level matches will go to mega man more than ness. I still think that's true.

 

[THE 6r]

Ness has a lot of different tricks like the fair of pain and using PK Fire as the great set-up move it is mainly into a smash or another PK Fire. Mega Man has to be careful as Ness is also a projectile spamer and good Nesses can punish very well with PK Fire or a dash attack. This matchup is in Ness's favor.

 

[Locke 06]

Regarding skill discussion:

- When discussing match-ups we must assume that both players are playing each character to their utmost potential always.

Regarding MU ratio/overall score:

90-10 would be a close to unwinnable matchup. 80-20 is a strong "hard counter". 70-30 is a solid advantage. 60-40 would be for an advantage. 50-50 would be neutral.

The 52.5 is mostly me being finicky. Reading the matchup summary, you would see that the number is based off of the idea that it is either even or very slightly in Mega Man's favor. I was leaning towards 55, but I felt it was closer to "even" than "slight advantage."

Whether it is +1 or 60-40, numbers mean nothing unless backed by reasoning. Fussing over numbers is dumb and something I would like to avoid doing. I assign numbers based on arguments using my own scale which is laid out in the OP. When someone says a matchup is solidly in favor of one character over the other, that says 30-70.

What matters more is that both sides understand the matchup well. This thread is to help the community understand the interaction between characters at a competitive level.

 

[Noa.]

note that I'm not saying utilt = bthrow, or really even comparing the utility of them. I'm trying to give a comparison of the size of utilt's hitbox vs Ness's grab because they're very similar. Shield drop > utilt does not have as small of range as you are saying. It's not huge, but it'll hit your not perfectly spaced aerials on shield (or even your spaced landing Nair, etc).

My entire point here is that Ness can't grab Mega Man reliably. period. You can talk about the killpower of it, etc, but he cannot approach thru projectiles, so he cannot reliably land a grab. Your killpower is directly linked to your grab (or random hit uairs), so explicitly stating (as several people have) that Ness will kill earlier than Mega is directly dependent on Ness being able to grab Mega, which again, nobody has come up with how that will happen.

Now I realize that in a real-life match, mistakes will be made on both parts. You will land grabs off Mega Man being dumb and things will go down that path. But then I list things that some of which will happen in a real-life match and I get told "oh good players won't do that". So now I'm forced to argue completely theoretical "perfect" play from both sides, and Mega never approaches if Metal Blade doesn't hit. Ness can't ever get in and his only consolation is trying to read jumps with fair or punish landings. Meanwhile Mega Man enjoys life 2% at a time, baits shields and gets grabs, and eventually kills from a random hit bair, gimp, or bthrow.... assuming the metal blade setup never worked into utilt and Mega can't land an usmash.

in this theory-land, the matchup looks much, much better for Mega Man than it plays out IRL currently... because mistakes ARE made, and Ness has an easier time landing grab off a mistake than we do an utilt, etc.
But keep in mind the Mega metagame is very young. utilt tech is still coming in, and we are beginning to use it reliably. I am simply stating that (going back to your original point) the killing difference does not offset the neutral difference (especially when you throw in gimps, which I have mostly ignored for several posts)... simply because you have to get through the neutral to land your killing setup.

I originally stated that this matchup was "at least a 6-4" which translates to a matchup that the better player will win, but similar skill-level matches will go to mega man more than ness. I still think that's true.

This whole time we've been disucssing and we've held the same basic opinion on the matchup. I just thin it learns more towards even and you think it leans more towards a bigger advantage. But it's fine. I think anyone reading the posts in this thread will see how mega man has the advantage in this matchup, and for what reasons. We're arguing over minutiae here and its not really worth our time too much.

But I'll just say one last thing cause it's important and I really haven't touched on it. How does Ness land a grab?

In neutral it's actually very difficult to land a grab. Usually, Ness conditions the opponent to shield whenever he short hops by hitting their shield with bair, fair, nair, or uair. After they've been conditioned to shield, you can start tomahwakig to a grab However this is not as effective against Megaman cause his sh fair can beat both a sh aerial and empty hop, so he can cover both options with one.

If megaman lands in front of Ness in range of pk fire and without a metal blade charging ahead, he can be hit to pk fire when he lands. And it usually lead to a grab or a fair. When Ness lands a fair, nair, or jab combo it'll push Mega man either off stage or into the air. From there you can either use pk thunder to juggle or try to grab Mega Man when he lands.

So grabbing Mega Man usually comes from punishing his landing with a pk fire or grabbng him in the middle of a juggle.

It's not easy to land grabs on Mega Man, which is why the matchup is not easy for Ness.

 

[Greward]

In neutral it's actually very difficult to land a grab. Usually, Ness conditions the opponent to shield whenever he short hops by hitting their shield with bair, fair, nair, or uair. After they've been conditioned to shield, you can start tomahwakig to a grab However this is not as effective against Megaman cause his sh fair can beat both a sh aerial and empty hop, so he can cover both options with one.

If megaman lands in front of Ness in range of pk fire and without a metal blade charging ahead, he can be hit to pk fire when he lands. And it usually lead to a grab or a fair. When Ness lands a fair, nair, or jab combo it'll push Mega man either off stage or into the air. From there you can either use pk thunder to juggle or try to grab Mega Man when he lands.

So grabbing Mega Man usually comes from punishing his landing with a pk fire or grabbng him in the middle of a juggle.

It's not easy to land grabs on Mega Man, which is why the matchup is not easy for Ness.

Short hop fair has quite some landing lag so you can shield it. Also Fair starts up at Mega Man's head while also being a frame 9 attack, so it's probably hitting in front of mega man at like frame 12-14 so it's not really good. Of course it can work out, but if it hits at low % it has not enough knockback so you can grab us even if we hit you (altho if we do it super close to the ground we can combo it into a dtilt at low %, but thats more when landing than in a SH), and even if we do hit it and not get punished by it it's just 8% damage while if we miss it it's not going to be less than 30%, because Ness punish is hard.
Actually SH nair is better for this, as it covers 2 different ranges, has hitbox on frame 7 and it'll push you away even at low % (the nair punch has some nasty fixed knockback), resetting the space and letting us more room to abuse pellets / MB.

As Mega Man i love to space with full hop fairs, because after the move I'm free to do a lot of options, but it's not that good against Ness because he can easily go for an upair or bair when trying to do so. Bair will usually trade but uair is really nasty.

A good way to pressure Mega Man is to cross up him since he lacks a good out of shield besides grab, so if you get behing him its kind of hard for him to punish that. Ness crossup uair is super godly to do so but you have to get close enough for that.

Ness really has a hard time getting a grab on Mega Man. His lack of speed plus pellets being super good makes him have to work extra hard for it. Best way to do it is predict some times and punish his metal blade landing (dash attack is the easiest way), so he stops using that option and then try to force him into airdodging into the ground (its not that hard if he is menaced by a ness aerial when landing, its kind of a 50/50). Anyways Ness can also start a combo from an up air or fair and it's way easier to get those in than the grabs.
PK fire is good even when you trade it with a metal blade, but if you do you likely won't get a grab in.

Mega Man should hardly ever land an uptilt in this matchup. Most kills come from bair edgeguard / Bthrow and some situational upsmash punish. Ness very rarely ever lands with an aerial and even less common is that they didn't space it enough to avoid the sweetspot. Also Ness isn't usually on the ground so the MB-Uptilt combo doesn't really rock in this matchup (and we really don't want to go into the air).
Best way to get the uptilt in is to bait him into a grab and uptilt him to break it. But it's risky as **** and the Bat punish is painful.

Most kills from Ness come from up air and bthrow in this matchup. Up air is like super good against Mega Man. Bthrow im listing it here because of obvious reasons, but i get more killed by Ness aerials than the grab because MM can stay out of grabs relatively easy.

I think as Mega Man this is one of the most grounded / campy matchups we got, that's why I say I don't like it. I view this matchup as a more difficult Luigi. The difference with Luigi is that he can completely shut down our aerial / full hop game (which is super good in most matchups) and overall better kill options and better mobility than Luigi.
Most Mega Man matchups look like super good on paper, but the reality is our low damage output and risky kill moves can really make an uphill battle against characters who only need like 4 punishes to take a stock.

@ Noa. : I am not really proud about my Apex performance... I kind of played worse on saturday than friday / sunday and I'm kind of mad about it, I should have gotten more sleep. I was like super close to beating the 2 players that got me out so yeah I'm quite salty lol
As far as Ness aerials, all are super good but Dair. Up air is the one that gives me the most trouble because of its huge hitbox / low landing lag / huge killing power and also the fact that Mega Man doesn't really have anything too good hitting below him.
I don't really remember your tag from Apex, so I'm wondering who you are. I guess if you know me we played or something, maybe you can tell me when we played or something? lol.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

First off, thank you to Draconoa44 for advancing this discussion to such a technical level. The MM mains of these boards may disagree with your opinions of MM's moves and options, but what they cannot express is how grateful they are to be having this discussion in the first place. Please except my thanks on behalf of them, since your posts surely took much time and consideration to help further the skills of a character you do not play, which is the very definition of advancing Smash 4's meta in a positive way.

As for me, I think this matchup can be very back and forth. Most bright ideas I've tried are not successful. For example, I would spam pellets until the Ness brings up psi magnet. Then later I will continue the buster shots, this time walking toward Ness. He magnets out of reaction, and there I am, in place and in time for an up tilt..or at least, I would be. But the magnet has a closing windbox to push me out of sweetspot range. Ness can also react pretty quick with shield or jab if his magnet state is being pressured. Crash bomber can be useless against ness because he can absorb the explosion. I try to be there to hit him while he's absorbing (takes about a half second if Ness knows the exact timer to engage the magnet with), but he could be in the air or offstage to ensure I can't land anything substantial.

Those PK thunders for when I am recovering are also a big factor. Sure, they don't hinder my recovery, but they tack on enough damage that I have less and less chance to survive my next lapse in judgement once I return to the ledge. Mega Man falls pretty fast for his average recovery to compensate for. If you swat the thunder out of the air with an aerial or air dodge, the amount of height you lose may cause you to SD. And PKT2 is way more dangerous in this game to try and gimp/edgeguard Ness. My last bright idea is to head down and get directly above him before he launches, use rush coil so that the dog falls on ness, Ness gets sprung into the air just under me where I might be able to slam him with a dair. The jank may be enough to secure a stock, but if Ness is holding left or right, he'll avoid the tiny hard knuckle without actively making a move to dodge it.

 

[---]

Ness? How come only now I just remembered that @ Yink mains him as well as Mega Man?

Would probably be a good person to ask for this match up.

 

[Yink]

I honestly spend more time on the little Blue Bomber than I do on Ness himself (because I'd rather focus on Mega first since I have a good feel for Ness already). Everyone else has already done a good job of giving their thoughts and I'd just be repeating them at this point.

My only thing to really stress is that a mastery of SH pellet makes the matchup a lot harder for Ness, just in my opinion at least. He can attempt to magnet them but it's not necessarily worth it (because doing it often means you're going to get baited). His good aerials do get in the way for Mega, but if you can do what Mega does best and be an annoyance just out of reach, then I think this MU is in Mega's favor but not overwhelmingly.

 

[Akenero]

Ness definitely makes mega have to approach with his dang psi magnet. mega cannot camp him out aside from throwing metal blades and fair/bair approaches.

 

[Locke 06]

Alright, thank you for a great discussion everyone. Things got a little heated, but it seems like both sides understand the matchup better due to the discussion, and that's the end goal.

Special thanks to @ Noa. @PKBeam @j3lly from the Ness boards and @Diamond Octobot for pulling up some threads and videos on the MU.

I'm so incredibly behind on summaries... :/ But these discussions are very good. Someday I'll get to them...

----
For our next topic, we'll go back to the Mushroom Kingdom. He's quickly risen from the bottom to the top and he's making waves in multiple tournaments due to his insaaaane combo game.



Some videos:
Greward vs Luigi Player
Pika Kong vs a Luigi

Here are some posts from the Luigi boards about the MU:

I didn't see anything about fighting against Megaman, so I thought I would share my experiences against him.

[Moves not to use]
1. Neutral B (AKA Fireball) - The big and obvious reason fireballs will not work against Megaman is due all the projectiles he has at his use (mega buster, crash bomb, and metal blade). Due to all of these options megaman has, ranged combat is completely out of the question.
2.Down B (Luigi Cyclone) - same reason as with the fireballs, Megaman's will cancel your cyclone and you will become exposed to a serious beating, Blue Bomber style. You may still be able to sneak this move in, but don't rely on this move for movement.
3.Up B (WeeGee Uppercut) - I know, this can be said against any opponent. The only reason I'm saying this is because of Megaman's up tilt (shoryuken!) and his side smash are both excellent kill move at lower percentages (80%). Use your up B at your own risk!

[Recovery options]
I'm just going to say this right now, you're not going to recover without a fight. Using side B to get closer to the course is easily punished by Megaman's Metal Blade. Also, make sure that you save your second jump for when it can grab the ledge. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, GET DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH THE LEDGE!! This is a very easy punish since Megaman can easily Hard Knuckle (Meteor smash) you. If you can, try to stay above the ledge and drop down to grab it.

[Megaman on the ground]
The typical combo that is released from Megaman is a crash bomb to metal blade, the crash bomb being easy to shield and the metal blade can easily be grabbed, as long as said Megaman is still keeping their distance. As for his mega buster, it can be easily nullified with a shield or a well timed jab combo, allowing for an easy punish if Megaman is using his buster at too close a distance. The only ground move that you might have to be worried about is his dash attack. The only reason for this is if you shield expecting a dash attack and Megaman catches this, you will be grabbed and thrown airborne, which is where Megaman can became a problem. If you shield his dash attack, it can easily be punished with a pivot grab.

[Megaman's air attacks]
If you're above an airborne Megaman, expect to have a bad time. His Fair attack has superior range over any over your aerial moves, so do your best to air dodge behind him so you can gain a chance to land on the ground. Megaman's Bair is his main kill move. If you are at high percentage, expect to see this instead of the Fair. His UpAir attack will generally be saved to keep you in the air you're too far up to Fair or Bair. Megaman's UpAir can usually be avoided by falling in a "zig-zag" pattern, since Megaman usually has to shoot at where you will be instead of where you are. If you are below Megaman, it's time to keep hime up there. Megaman has no attack that can attack you effectively when you are below him. Typically an UpAir is your best method to keep him up there.

[To Summarize]
1.Don't rely on your neutral B and down B
2.Stay aggressive! Megaman beats you when it comes to ranged attacks.
3.Never come back to the map from directly underneath the ledge or directly horizontally, unless you want Megaman to side smash or hard knuckle you into oblivion.
4.Avoid fighting above him, this is where Megaman becomes dangerous.
5. Megaman is weak from underneath, keep juggling him in the air.

Megaman is no joke. In my opinion, Megaman has an advantage to Luigi players, but not by much. As long as you keep your cool and stay close at all times, victory should be yours.

If there's anything I missed, let me know! Also, if I made this too long, I can edit it into a more concise form, probably.

Eh, I have heard Mega goes even with Weegee. Here are my thoughts.
[Editor's note: Poster may or may not have been fully conscious at the time of posting. Just a disclaimer]

I do believe Crash Bomber and Metal Blades get whupped by Fireballs. The only thing Fireballs lose is Mega Buster (And Charge Shot. But it's transcendent). Though, Luigi Cyclone plows through them all. It's a theory, but considering Cyclone plows through Samus' missiles.... it should be eating lemons there.

I have fought a pro Mega player, pre-patch (And yes, I got whupped hard), and..... his lemons are certainly a problem. Unpredictable Cyclone usages can help. Remember, MegaMan has end lag on the third shot, so he can't fire those lemons like madman. It's REALLY REALLY small though.

Aerial.... his air speed trumps ours. Flame Sword has fair amount of end lag I believe, B-air is annoying (It kills and edgeguard, just like Luigi's), U-air is, well, undoubtely unique, but all you need is either get out of the way or airdgodge, really. In my experience, his first try to juggle with this usually succeed, sending me high up. Then his second attempt.... I just airdodged it up high and he can't really do anything about it except to punish our landing. That ledge! Remember! (Or FF N-air if you're real). Mega Buster is as annoying as ever, but I don't believe he will be using it often, they go in a straight path. Hard Knuckle meteors, hard. Don't eat it by recovering high.

We must keep one thing in mind, we must not let him space his attacks, or else we're done. His aerials, especially.

His F-smash is one of the weakest smash attack in power, but it is an edgeguarding legend. DO NAWT RECOVER IN A STRAIGHT LINE! Like I said, recovering high is our best option here, but if he is expecting this, mix things up.

U-smash has much more range than it looks, trust me. I learned this the hard way. Otherwise, it's your usual 'landing punisher' attack.

D-smash is his second most powerful move, FLAME BLAST! (Dat is the right name right?) Though, unless it has been patched, the animation decieves. It may look like Mega is protecting himself with the pillar or flames during the attack, and you can't seem to punish it.... until you realize there are no hitboxes othe rthan the earlier frames..... yeah, the animation decieves. However, be cautious, it is his second most powerful attack, and apparently it got some range, and he can also punish your landing with this. If you successfully dodged this attack though, burst through the harmless flames and let the comboes begin!

Mega Upper, alright, it is FJP's small bro. Yes, SHORYUKEN! Yep, it may not look like it, but it's MegaMan's most powerful move. Somewhat like Ganon, having an U-tilt that is stronger than his smash attacks.... Anyway, it comes out quick, but somewhat punishable on whiff, and in order to sweetspot it, he has to breath on your face.... just like Fire Jump Punch. However, it is weaker, but less punishable (Thus, why the 'small bro' lol). Remember, this move is his strongest attack, outclassing even his U-smash and D-smash in terms of power.

His F-tilt is his 'moving Mega Buster' alright.

D-tilt is somewhat annoying too.... it covers lots of distance, and after Metal Blade, Mega can follow up with this, and it puts you to the air.

In short.... Mega wins if he manage to outcamp Luigi and outspace him..... but that's about it. Luigi crushes him in melee combat (Mind his Mega Upper and tilts! And Flame Blast and Spark Shot!) and once we're in, we must not let him get away. Hillariously enough, his dashing speed is slower than Luigi.

Crash Bombers are somwhat hillarious. If we get caught, bump with Mega to transfer it to him, effectively making him has to shield or dodge away. This can mess him up, but remember! The blast will still hurt you! Don't get bombed!

Leaf Shield can somewhat edgeguard you (Cancels out jumps), but Mega can't do anything besides grabs I believe. But no, if he throws this, get away, just get away or shield. Fireballs won't cancel this out, and while it deals little damage, still an annoyance.

In a nutshell, this is like Zelda MU. He manages to outspace and outcamp or just keeps you away, he wins. Luigi manages to get in (Which.... I do believe is manageable), Luigi wins. One of the best Mega players in GFAQs (Yes, he was the one I fought), said Mega vs Luigi is even, but doesn't say why (Maybe because he is making a MU chart for MM, but no one asked for Luigi except me, but he didn't replied).

Take this with a grain of salt. I rarely ecounter good Mega online now. I'll need to do some more research. But for now, I think it's even. That F2 N-air is interesting though, can it breaks through double F-airs?

And a post from MM boards' own, Fenrir:

I hate to bring this down to the barest roots, but honestly he can't do anything about the pellet spam. It cancels fireballs, stops him from jumping, and he's not fast enough to run through it. To just pour salt in the wound, if he rolls through it, the standing pellet + his low traction pushes him back to where he was. If he does jump over it, none of his aerials outrange or outprioritize our fair, so we just jump up and smack him.
The one way he can get through it is by overprioritizing it with his tornado.. But again, that's crazy unsafe on shield so it doesn't help if we just react to it with shield usmash if he goes high or shield grab, etc if not.
Offstage, we gimp him like crazy. Leafstooling works. Jump off stage Nair usually works. Dair isn't too hard to land. Bair, etc etc. Anything we can do to take his 2nd jump and push him below stage level will kill him.
I will say that Luigi punishes HARD when he lands a grab. Honestly though, I think it's feasible to say that we shouldn't get grabbed in this matchup... Ever.

For those new to the discussion, I suggest you read the first post of this thread, as it outlines how we attempt to discuss the MU and what MU numbers mean (even though, as I like to say, numbers are only a fast summary of your idea of the MU and mean nothing if not backed up by reasoning).

 

[TriTails]

I'm not sure if my post is accurate or not. I was like half-drunklike when I posted that.

No guys. I don't drink those stuffs. I was just feeling.... drowsy at that time.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm not sure if my post is accurate or not. I was like half-drunklike when I posted that.

No guys. I don't drink those stuffs. I was just feeling.... drowsy at that time.

I can take it off if you want. I just wandered over to the Luigi boards looking for posts on the matchup.

 

[TriTails]

I can take it off if you want. I just wandered over to the Luigi boards looking for posts on the matchup.

If you feel like it's inaccurate, then go ahead.

I myself am not a Mega Man expert.

If you feel like it's accurate.... then well, it's your choice.

 

[Locke 06]

If you feel like it's inaccurate, then go ahead.

I myself am not a Mega Man expert.

If you feel like it's accurate.... then well, it's your choice.

Well, I'm no Luigi expert. I'll just put a disclaimer in it saying the poster may or may not have been fully conscious when posting. :D

I will say this though, from my experience it is pretty much a "try to be as safe as possible" from Mega Man's perspective as Luigi's combos are possibly the best in the game (and can lead to kills).

Fsmash on block is really nice because of Luigi's low traction and may be able to net Mega some stage control.

 

[TriTails]

Holy wow. Can't believe you actually added that XD.

Remember, Luigi's F-smash is safe on block, because that move has low end lag, but rather short range.

Oh, and MegaMan's F-smash is almost always safe all the time because of it's range .

By the way, can Mega's lemons break through double F'air? They are F2 after all.

And also, don't spam F-smash. Luigi will just jump over it because of his jump height. Though, his air speed is poor, so be ready with U-smash when he is landing!

If you already out of F-smash end lag, that is. If he caught you charging this, he can just jump before you fire the shot, fast fall through the shot (His double jump should already buy him enough time), then bum rushes you.

Though... why something as annoying as Mega Buster must exist I have no clue. Luigi only has Nado to counter them, and it's punishable.

 

[Greward]

mega man's lemons are frame 7 actually, so no they don't

Luigi puts us in kill range from like 3 grabs because of his insane combos (we weight a lot and thus easy to combo) but we can keep away easily and gimp him. Pellets really annoy luigi.

I'd say mega man has the upper hand in this matchup.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Luigi has always struggled in smash against characters with a flinch-inducing projectile and chars with disjointed aerials, to the point where Marth and Falco were always tough for him.

In this matchup, Megaman essentially is Marth + Falco. It's a very tough matchup for poor weegee.

 

[ChopperDave]

What's the best way to DI out of Weegee's combos? Can we use Rush as an emergency eject button at any point?

Or is the only solution here Don't Get Grabbed?

 

[ScAtt77]

What's the best way to DI out of Weegee's combos? Can we use Rush as an emergency eject button at any point?

Or is the only solution here Don't Get Grabbed?

The best way to DI his d-throw is almost always up and towards and his back; at lower percents, this gives Luigi the chance to only hit you with one f-air instead of two f-airs -> regrab. At high percents, it makes it harder for Luigi to actually carry you up with his cyclone out of d-throw. Generally, the closer you are to the center of Luigi's body, the harder it is for him to carry you up.

I'll post more detailed thoughts on this match-up later, but I personally believe that Mega Man destroys Luigi.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ ScAtt77 is spot on.

Honestly, if I were putting a number on this matchup, it would be at least 7-3 for us. possible 8-2, simply because I don't see Luigi winning this matchup ever at the top level. His entire game essentially requires Mega to mess up.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Luigi main here, a very competent one if I do say so.

Pellets -> Cyclone, cyclone beats the first one, clashes with the second, and Luigi gets hit by the third
That Blade thing -> cyclone
Leaf Shield -> cyclone

Now, people claim cyclone beats them, and it does, but only the first hit.. Which is point blank, which you would be shielding at that point.. and cyclone is incredibly punishable

At 0% if you Di behind Luigi so the fair knocks you behind him, Luigi gets Fair -> Bair (29% from 0)
But that's where it ends, same as double fair, you can just dodge the grab, or di the first Fair down and block because Megaman is so heavy.

To Di Luigi's d-throw it's not a way to avoid his followups, or make them not work.. you're just choosing what to get hit by.

If you Di away, Luigi can only land Fair, Uair and Bair and Down B becomes much harder to land.
If you Di toward, Luigi can land everything with ease, except Bair becomes much harder to land (sweetspot anyway)

To Di down b (It's possible to escape) You need to Di+SDi down, holding down isn't going to cut it, if the Luigi makes cyclone rise at all and you do it right, you get it.

If you don't manage to escape, it is imperative that you Di the last hit away from Luigi and make sure to be keen on which side Luigi is on for the last hit. If you hold away from where you think Luigi is, and he ends up on the other side you'll just fly straight up and die earlier.

Don't expect this to kill you unless you're +135 and Luigi is +100

For the down b gimp Luigi can do, Megaman can easily live it by saving his Jump tanking the down b, then Up B, jump and wall jump.

You also need to accept that you can't avoid the aerials from Luigi.. never air dodge after his downthrow, You WILL get hit by Up B.

This is all how to deal with Luigi's things.

From my experience, Megaman excels at keeping Luigi out, and camping him.. which is where Luigi struggles most.

It's definitely in Megaman's favour, but I don't think it's heavily in his favour where the Mu is unwinnable

 

[Glazed_Soul]

I just want to let you guys know that my quote is from facing a Megaman who rarely used pellets or side smashes and instead focused more on metal blades and Fairs (just in case that makes a difference).
I agree that pellets are the best way to keep Weegee away, however, from my experience, I can say that Up and down smashes should only be saved for when Weegee is recklessly going in for a grab or cyclone attack. From what I can tell, grabs can be negated by any move that causes flinching (like your down smash). Also, the up smash is a great way to finish a stock if they're falling from above (since you can dash underneath and have it last through an entire air dodge. Same with metal blades, if you place them properly while Weegee is falling, you can force him to move where you want him to go, thus giving you a higher chance of removing a stock at higher percentages.
Well, I think that pretty much covers everything I want to say.

 

[TriTails]

Guys, let's not be so quick calling this MU is 8-2 Mega's favor. Luigi got ABSOLUTELY NO MU above 7-3, and that 7-3 is against Villager. Mega may be able to keep Weegee away, but 8-2? Legimately insane.

Let me cover my post up. I may not be a pro, but I do know enough about Weegee.

First off, you DI-ing towards Weegee after the D-throw. No, NO! DON'T DO IT! Why? Because...

1. You made yourself EVEN more vunerable to D-air chaingrab.

2. You are about to eat an EVEN more powerful combo than F-air chaingrab.

What is that combo?

D-throw -> D-air spike (Since you most likely are in lower percentages, you can't tech) -> FF N-air -> Lots of U-tilts -> U-smash.

Can rack up 50% to 60% (Maybe even 70%?). Compare that to F-air chaingrab, 48%. Though, I think you can do more, but oh well.

Second, Mega Buster may annoy Luigi, but I do believe Cyclone plows through all of them (As long as Luigi is barely above the ground anyway) and he can push himself to the air with gud enough mashing to make himself safer. And also, don't F-tilt. I haven't tested this yet, but I think Luigi can jump SH the Busters and maybe eat a pellet with N-air (Maybe F-air or B-air too) as well as hitting you (Maybe). Simply being kept out by pellets doesn't mean an insta-disadvantage, even more to the fact Luigi can answer Mega's projectiles (Unlike some other characters like, say, Ganon. How the hell he approach MM I have no clue).

Third, Luigi combos MegaMan hard, and his KO options are somethimes unescapable (D-throw to B-air/N-air). Sure, MegaMan's range is nothing to scoff at, but his melee options are rather lacking (But not neccesarily weak, Mega Upper and Flame Blast...), and Luigi's attack speed is one of the best in the game, as well as, hillariously enough, Luigi is faster than Mega on the ground (Mega trumps his airspeed, enough said). So... I think Luigi smacks Mega in close combat.

What is that? Mega has disjointed aerials? Well, I don't THINK any Luigi would try to make this an aerial combat (Look at his airspeed). So he isn't jumping unless he has to (Or you make him to). Don't know the numbers, but Luigi's aerials are all lighting fast (Save for D-air).

Recovery... Nah, Luigi can recover high. I'm not saying that MM can't gimp Luigi, but take this in mind... Get ready everytime you want to gimp him. Act accordingly depending on what position Luigi choose to recover. If he recovers high, ready your jumps, if he recovers low, HARD KNUCKLE! Watch out for Jumpless Cyclone. Only so many players can do this so far... but it cannot be ignored. Remember, SJP has invincibility.

Unlike most other characters, I can imagine MM not finding so much trouble with Luigi's Fireballs because of lemons. Just don't get burned in the face, though, I doubt it.

Speaking of lemons, don't tourneys use platfrom stages? Luigi can abuse them to get around the lemons, unless it's a counter-pick (Dang it, why FG must only use FD I have no clue). Mega's projectiles I believe are less effective in platfrom stages, Luigi can abuse them pretty well. So your stage counter-pick: FD, or Omega stages that have walls (So you can wall jump). Definitely not platform stages.

I think this MU is rather 6-4 in Mega's favor. No, no 8-2 plz, unless this is MM vs Ganon or the like. Heck, platform stages make this easier (I do believe you guys (And me) were discussing this like FD is the stage). So yeah... 6-4 for me.

And... no, Marth and Falco doesn't give Luigi much trouble. In fact, I think they are even. I heard in Brawl days, Marth and Falco are very dangerous threats for Luigi, but I think not so much anymore.

Feel free to correct me, but again, not thinking this MU is even anywhere near 8-2. Mega may has great defensive options/game, as well as powerful melee attacks (Mega Upper, Flame Blast, B-air), but Luigi can also harrass MM bad up close. Though, I'd say this is definitely in Mega's favor, due to his ways on keeping Luigi out (Transcendent F-smash, nooooo....).

Okay, I really did it again guys. A huge wall of text.

 

[Fenrir VII]

But Luigi can't get up close unless the mega makes a mistake.
-cyclone gets thru pellets, but mega has time to shield it and punish accordingly
-your Nair and such trade, but you can't get close enough on a jump to hit mega, so you just cancel out one pellet and get hit by another
-if you go to a platform, (A) you're above mega, which is a bad position for Luigi; and (B) mega can just jump and keep shooting if he wants to
-the marth Falco thing was based on previous games. Falco got nerfed hard (specifically with his lasers) and I'm not familiar with other weegee matchups.
-up close, we can just keep pelleting to push you back or jump away.
-I'll concede all of your grab options. I'll also concede that Luigi might have the best grab combos in the game. The problem in this matchup is that I honestly can't see how you GET a grab. Unless something is discovered, you have literally no options for getting thru pellets, and yes... That's a matchup breaker
-6-4 implies this matchup is nearly even. This matchup isn't close to even. In fact, I would be fairly surprised if mega weren't Luigi's worst matchup. He seems so specifically designed to give you a hard time that it's crazy.

 

[Blade Knight]

Mega Man has a very clear advantage in this matchup, as we've seen. Our aerials beat his out in range and Slash Claw stuffs anything he can throw at you, inclduing his Bair and Nair. Fireballs are worthless vs Mega Man, and angled metal blades, slash claw, flame sword, and hard knuckle all give you an easy time taking advantage of Luigi's recovery issues.

Mega Man can fight Luigi with or without platforms about equally well, though I prefer platforms since we have superior platform mobility and he has an easy time causing Luigi to slide off of platforms with Nair or Slash Claw. Mega Upper can shut down Luigis attempting to fish for an Up B. Charge Shot, Metal Blade and short hopped aerials beats out Luigis approaching without generous amounts of shielding or with Down B. Really the only thing we need to fear is getting grabbed, and our grab is faster than his.

Luigi has a poor time getting back to the ground once we get him into the air, so a lot like the Samus matchup for us (in my experiene) Up Throw and Spark Shock are powerful tools for shutting him down and getting him into a bad position.

Back Air and Metal Blade shut down most of what Luigi can do quite comfortably on their own. This definitely isn't an unwinnable macthup for Luigi, but it's an uphill battle. I'd call it at about 6.5:3.5 in Mega Man's favor in the current meta of the game. Could get worse or slightly better as the game develops.

On a fun note, Crash Bomber can be a really great tool vs Luigi since his shield health is so low and prone to breaking. If he shields it he eats a ton of shield damage and leaves us free to either retreat or approach and if he doesn't he gets put into the air for free.

Edit:
To be fair to Luigi he does combo Mega Man very hard but only IF he gets in and only IF he gets a grab, and Mega Man should be able to comfortably catch Luigi with a grab first in most situations. Even then Mega Man is REALLY heavy so we can live for quite a while even vs Up B, Bair, and his kill Smashes.

 

[ScAtt77]

In my opinion, Mega Man counters Luigi fairly hard. Almost every single one of Luigi's standard approach options ( short-hop fireballs, short-hop b-air/f-air/ d-air, cyclone) is stuffed by pellets. I 100% guarantee you that three of Mega Man's pellets eat Luigi's cyclone for breakfast. On top of that, Mega Man's superior aerial mobility and range make it a chore for Luigi to get in on pellets. The icing on the cake is the n-air hitbox; Luigi has to stay close to you get his game going, but fighting through pellets just to be smacked in the face by a n-air hitbox gives Luigi a hard time. Yes, you can use MB and CB in this match-up, but generally, Luigi can just spam fireballs to keep those projectiles at bay. Diagonal MBs from a full hop also seem to be especially good since you don't have to commit and if you don't get the hit, the most Luigi can get on you is stage positioning, and possibly a fireball (assuming that you don't pellet on the way down.) As far as Mega Man's d-throw follow-ups, you want to stick with RAR b-airs. You can do the standard d-throw -> fair -> u-air follow up but Luigi's (frame 3?) n-air is not something that I would risk trading with. B-air is safer and still does a decent amount of damage.


Of course, this isn't a perfect world, so lets say Luigi does manage to get close to Mega Man; you'll be eating quite a bit of damage from d-throw -> f-air follow ups if you don't DI correctly. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the aforementioned combo with d-air is guaranteed especially if you're anywhere above like 10%, but I'd love to eat my words if someone can show me a clip (I'm a Weegee main at heart <3). Still, at kill percents (120+% or so) , you generally want to DI so that you are directly above Luigi after a d-throw to avoid being carried high by cyclone, his most consistent killing option out of cyclone. As long as you aren't caught by the tips of his fingers, you should generally fall out unless the Luigi player mashes b slower, which means you're lower on the stage. However, you also want to be careful of potential n-air/ b-air follow-ups as well. Almost every aerial approach that Luigi has is easily shield grabbed by Mega Man's large grab range; as for cross-ups on shield, u-smash oos takes care of anything he throws out.

MegaMan's edge-guarding >>> Luigi's edge-guarding. This is where Mega Man takes a huge lead in the match up in my opinion.Luigi's recovery is ridiculously linear; he will almost always be going completely horizontally (side-b) or completely vertical (double jump, up-b, down-b). I don't even consider side-b as a recovery option for him really; it's laughably easy to just shoot one pellet at it to stop any and all distance he gains from it. If he uses it below the stage that should be a free Hard Knuckle to take his stock/ put him in a worse position. If he decides to recover high with double jump -> cyclone or just double jump, Mega Man's aerial mobility + Slash claw is more than enough to frame trap him/ knock him offstage into an even worse position. Generally if you make Luigi commit to using his cyclone, without a double jump, he's dead. If Luigi grabs the ledge, simply using Leaf Shield and holding shield stuffs anything he can do from that position, and he'll be hard pressed to try to jump over you.

On the flip side, if Luigi is edge-guarding you, be weary of b-air, it again has a decent amount of knockback, and you usually don't want to trade flame sword with it. If Luigi wants to play it safe, he can spam fireballs by the ledge which are admittedly pretty hard to get around. I've found the ledgejump-> Rush Coil high to be pretty good at getting out of that situation. Offstage, he really can't threaten you too much outside of b-air as long as you keep a good wall of projectiles up.

Platforms are equally as good for both characters in my opinion; Luigi's platform pressure is amazing since u-air/f-air is so quick and cyclone can easily poke through a diminished shield from below. If Luigi is ever above Mega Man, he should easily be eating 25-40% from u-air alone. Nothing luigi has in his arsenal beats u-smash from above, so it's relatively safe to throw out too. You could harass him with MBs too, but i'm not sure if cyclone beats out MB so that would be something worth testing.

Stagewise, almost anything you would normally go to with the blue bomber works; Omega FD with walls are amazing forcing Luigi's recovery to be even more linear. T&C and Battlefield are pretty good too in this match-up. I feel as if SV is okay, but the platform will more than likely help Luigi's recovery out more than Mega Man's.

Overall, I feel that this is very solidly 70:30 to 75:25 in Mega Man's favor. Pellets alone give Luigi a hard time, but it's almost as if every other tool Luigi has outside of d-throw is made null and void. :l

 

[Locke 06]

@ TriTails @ Fenrir VII - just to clarify, 8-2 is a hard counter or "strong advantage." 6-4 is a "slight advantage."

I do think platforms help Mega more than Luigi because of the ledge slip combos can lead to jab lock >utilt/dsmash and how great Mega Man's anti-air is (mostly uair). The jab lock combos are deadly because MM can jab lock from a distance with lemons. Platforms also help Mega avoid getting cornered to use his mobility. Platforms do extend Luigi's combos, so I don't think Mega should always CP a platform stage like BF or Skyloft.

Perfect pivot usmash is a great tool I've seen Luigis do (mostly Japanese Luigis) to get kills and is safe on block if he ends up getting close enough. It's basically a safer bigger fsmash that launches up with the drawback of it being a tad slower (I think) and more difficult to execute. However, Luigi's PP is one of the biggest in the game so just something to note.

@ Blade Knight - can you elaborate in the shield health bit? I am under the impression that shield health is standardized across the cast.

 

[Fenrir VII]

yeah in legacy terms, 6-4, etc essentially meant:

"when 2 evenly skilled players of a high competency play this matchup, the player with the matchup advantage will win 60% of the games."
I just don't think that's a true statement for this particular matchup

A common thread in these matchup discussions is that everybody wants to play down the matchup advantage, so we wind up with a LOT of 6-4's... when in fact some of them are clearly worse than that.
Real talk, I don't see perfect Luigi winning against perfect megaman ever. The reason that I bring this down to a 7-3 or 8-2 is that mistakes will happen in a normal match, and Luigi punishes hard. But I do stand by one of those ratios (or anything in between) as the 'correct' one for the current metagame.

 

[Blade Knight]

@ Locke 06 Maybe it's just a placebo effect but when I play against Luigi his shield definitely seems to deteriorate faster than a lot of other characters. It's the same with Shiek in my experience. As far as I know shield health is tied to weight class, but I could be wrong. I don't have a substantial amount of data or science I can use to back that claim up, it's more just an experience thing.


On another note, I did some testing in the lab:
One pellet/lemon clashes Luigi's cyclone, lemons two and three will hit him.

A standardly thrown Metal Blade (just B) will never beat Cyclone, but will always clank against it EXCEPT on the final hit, in which case Luigi powers through it.

An item thrown Metal Blade can beat Cyclone between it's hitboxes, and otherwise will always clash with it, even on it's strongest hitbox, which opens Luigi up to grabs and other attacks.

 

[ChopperDave]

"Perfect" Mega Man play is kind of a tricky concept, I think, because Mega Man has arguably one of the best neutral games in the cast, but to compensate he has noticeably lower burst damage capability. Basically, he's low risk low reward until he gets his opponent to kill percents and has to start throwing out riskier kill moves.

Characters like Luigi are the opposite in that their neutral games are weak (at least compared to Mega Man's), but their burst damage is insane.

In a theoretically perfect world, Mega Man would be able to zone out characters like Luigi and Falcon and never make tactical mistakes or unforced errors that they could take advantage of, but in the real world even top players have trouble managing that level of consistency.

I would agree that this is a pretty bad matchup for Luigi, probably in the 7-3 range. Mega Man's great neutral and offstage game really tilt things in his favor here. But I think it's useful to consider how "error-proof" this, and any matchup is for MM. It's worth acknowledging that if we screw up our zoning game or whiff a utilt, Luigi can make us pay for it pretty dearly.

 

[Greward]

Luigi shouldn't go to platforms if he can choose not to. Mega Man has some good platform pressure.
Fireballs are annoying because they nullify our metal blade but we beat it with pellets so it's more annoying than good. While fireballs are super good they aren't very useful in this matchup.

You are forgetting about luigi's jab, it's hella good. Yeah, he needs to be close, but he will end up close at some point in time.
While pellets do stop luigi and really annoy Luigi, pellets are very low damage and one bad move ends up in a freaking hard punish. He can somewhat approach with roll against our pellet game and if timed correctly it can work out (luigi's roll is fast). It's not the best but one grab will deal around 50% if the luigi is good so it's worth giving a try. After all a miss is probably going to be 4-6% damage only. He has better tools and is not that easy to gimp. Trying to gimp luigi going from below with dj + upB is hard, it's a bad angle and hard knuckle isn't that good of an option. If he goes with side B it's easy to gimp with Bair but in the chance he gets a super missile it's one stock gone (and this actually cost my last game with Boss lol).

I know it's easy to dismiss all mega man matchups as "if we do perfect pellet game it's a sure win" but we are not sure proof machines and playing mega man that way takes a lot of stamina (which you need in a tournament). We are also playing human beings who can adapt. Pellets are good but I feel they are better as a mixup than to rely completely on them because on how low reward they are. Assuming one grab combo from luigi at 0% does 50% (which they'll with either double fair or dair chaingrab depending on DI), that amount of damage is around 20 pellets. 20 times is enough time for the luigi to read our timing and get in.

Pellets are good to force Luigi to approach. You probably will get some nice damage there, and at some point in time luigi will start shielding a lot and looking for the roll. He should get used to the pellets and start powershielding them. Then you either fake a nair jump into grab (tomahawk mixup with nair is hella good in most matchups and in this one is even better), or read the roll and punish with grab. He will sometimes try to mix up with dash attack or jump in. I actually stay next to the ledge in this matchup if I can choose so I can bthrow offstage and try to make something happen. And Luigi isn't all that good getting out of the edge so that's the best option.
Keep luigi away with pellets and situational metal blade, then grab to create space again or try to go for a bigger punish with our edgeguarding tools. That's pretty much the matchup.

I'd say 6-4 or 65-35. 7-3 is too much imo, but i could agree with that maybe. Anything worse than 7-3 is underrating Luigi as a character imo. He has a lot of trouble getting in, but his insane punishes and superior kill game shouldn't be ignored. He'll get them, Luigi players are good at finding openings and reading the opponent's timing and overall flow of the game.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Player adaptation is not productive reasoning for match up discussions.

 

[Locke 06]

Okayy. Tomorrow will be the last day of Luigi discussion!

Something we haven't really discussed yet... Customs! Since Evo will likely be using customs, I'd encourage everyone to start treating them as the norm. I doubt many Mega Mans know Luigi's customs, so the Luigi boards are encouraged to talk about what set they'd probably use against Mega man. Same thing for Mega Man's customs.

Personally, I'm a fan of default in this MU. I think the fireballs disappear too quickly to really be worth reflecting and forcing Luigi to shield with crash bomb helps us utilize his poor traction and take stage control with an fsmash. I can see ice slasher doing well here, since Luigi does not like to be above us and ice slasher puts him up there, but I'm unsure since it gets canceled easily.

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For Mega Mans interested in what's coming next, I'm debating between a formal Rosalina discussion, Zelda, Link, or Game and Watch discussion. With the exception of Rosalina, I think we could take a break from characters perceived to be incredibly good, and play around with some of the lesser played, but still good, characters. As usual, thoughts at the bottom of your posts about the Luigi MU would be appreciated, and if you don't want to post about the Luigi MU but still want your voice heard for the next topic, tag me in the general MU thread!

 

[ChopperDave]

Ah, customs.

On Luigi's side, based on what I've seen over on the Luigi boards, it seems like the most viable customs are: B2, B3, SideB2, SideB3, UpB3, DownB2.

B2 could be useful for getting over our pellets, but otherwise it's a downgrade. B3 is a great move in general but it's lack of distance and the ease with which we can cancel it makes it less useful vs. MM.

I don't see Luigi giving up UpB1 or DownB1 very often because they're already quite good on their own. UpB3 and DownB2 are both better recovery moves, though, so Luigi might take one or both of them if our offstage game stresses him out (and it should).

SideB customs are recovery mixups. I'd probably expect SideB2 if he takes one, because quick missile seems more useful vs. MM overall.

For us, Danger Wrap is always awesome, but we have to be careful because Luigi's DownB1 can cancel and counter it. Tornado Hold makes our edgeguard game even worse for Luigi, though we have to be wary not to eat a low knockback move like his dsmash or else we're dead. Luigi's fireballs aren't strong enough to be worth taking Skull Barrier IMO. Hyper Bombs can be lobbed over Luigi's fireballs which is pretty neat, but otherwise I consider them a downgrade. I don't really see us taking any other specials.

The biggest game changer I see here is Danger Wrap, which gives us another kill move and makes our antiair, platform pressure, and offstage game even scarier than they were before. Luigi could opt for customs that give him greater survivability offstage, but these moves tend to diminish his offensive capabilities so it's kind of a wash.