Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[iiGGYxD]

Just faced a pretty campy Yoshi. Kept running out of lemon range to throw an egg and used the fact that it drops to cover pursuit. Had to inch my way in/back him to the edge. Spacing a defensive Yoshi is tough. :/

were you attempting to rush under him when he threw eggs? Was he throwing them from a full hop, or staying grounded?

Yoshi's air mobility is pretty solid so it can be hard to stay at the range that I mentioned.

 

[Locke 06]

Mostly SH b-reverse and using the bounce in the air to stay mobile. I tried rushing under, but there was too much space between us. I guess what the point I was getting at is edge of lemon range might still be too far to avoid falling into long range.

 

[BBC7]

I like using U-Tilt against Yoshi's, their Dair is extremely shield punishable and if they're foolish enough to go for it while you're shielding, they can get punished by U-Tilt. Same applies to Bair, I believe. Mega Man vs Yoshi is kind of a test of patience. Your pellets can stop eggs, you can sidestep Neutral B, Side B, Grab and Dash Attack, all which are rather predictable moves. Down B almost always leads to a free punish if they whiff it as well. You can't be too offensive in this fight because you will just end up getting punished for more than it's worth.

 

[Locke 06]

I'll throw this down here for analysis. A quote from @BSME/misc after some Yoshi v Mega Man games.

Alright, I'll just start off saying that mega man's ability to create a wall using his neutral a shuts down a lot of yoshi's approach options, save for egg tossing which becomes extremely predictable after a short time. Whenever I felt I was being too aggressive you would follow up with a f-air or gear toss to grab, due to the hitstun from the pellets the punish window is almost nonexistent save for perfect spacing from yoshi, which is unrealistic for the entirety of the match.

Worst case scenario, the yoshi player trades egg tosses for residual damage through pellets and gear tosses and bait an unsafe or laggy option from mega-man. In this case the best offense is a great defense from megaman and the yoshi player must be very patient and capitalize on every single mistake that megaman makes

 

[Abortion Doc]

I think Zero Suit Samus and Diddy Kong are two matchups that should be talked about. They're both adept at applying pressure with their speed and follow-up ability. Personally I have a hard time controlling the stage against them both.

Do lemons cancel with thrown bananas?

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, this Yoshi discussion has stalled (along with my writeup of Mario... Sorry, guys). Any further thoughts on Yoshi?

I think ZSS would be a good one to discuss. Personally, I think we are one of the worst, if not the worst, matchup for her.

 

[ChopperDave]

Agreed. I think we have a very favorable matchup against ZSS:

• We can Rush Cancel out of virtually every combo she has, making it really hard for her to do her typical rush down damage game and set up her kill moves. Even her fsmash can be Rush Cancelled out of after the first hit.
• We have a lot of options for clanking her paralyzer shot, and our fsmash trades, making it a risky move for her to use.
• Lemons and MB make it easy to zone her and punish her mistakes.
• She has a hard time approaching or even defending when you have Leaf Shield up, as it often hitstuns her out of her dash attack, aerials, and even her downB. Makes it easy to grab her and gain stage control.
• Her recovery is fairly predictable and easy to edge guard. One of my favorite things to do is to spike or footstool her when she goes for the tether recovery. The invincibility frames on her downB can be annoying, but when she uses that all you have to do is wait for her at her landing location (preferably with LS up) and pick her up with a grab.

Overall we just have a lot of tools that screw with her usual game plan and force her out of her comfort zone. It's not unwinnable for her but I think we have a pretty big advantage.

Most of my games against ZSS end up with my opponent spamming the paralyzer and DownB and hoping it stuns or buries me, because that's the only way they can really land a solid KO hit.

 

[Sleek Media]

ZSS needs platforms. In For Glory mode, it's pretty much hopeless. Mega Man doesn't take any of that paralyzer->grab spam crap.

 

[Kiyosuki]

ZSS would definitely be a good discussion, although I do have to suggest I think sometime sooner than later it may be time to start tackling Rosalina.

I know a lot of people are kinda sick of talking about her, but she is kind of the character everyone's measuring up against or is worried about at the moment especially at this stage of the games' life where matchups are still being formed, and I've heard both from here...the Rosalina board itself, and elsewhere conflicting opinions on MM's matchup against her. Some say it's a nightmare like with most others, while others have said that he actually fares pretty surprisingly well against her and I could maybe see that, MM has some things I've felt like have given at least some Rosa players I've fought against trouble and there's been a few examples even amongst early tournaments as well so whether or not he really does well against her...there's a lot to talk about there.

Maybe ZSS for now, but when the Wii U one drops it could be good to start getting that discussion out of the way. It's kind of a potentially big topic of debate and analysis, because if MM does actually do well against Rosa that could affect his tourney presence pretty substantially if proven true.

 

[Kiyosuki]

Seriously, Rosalina is so overrated it isn't even funny. I'm not exactly Mr Elite, but the general attitude on smashboards has me questioning whether anyone here has the half a brain needed to process more than dair dair dair MK strings or chaingrabs.

Just. Don't. Roll. Into. Her. It's not rocket science, and it's not even a danger that is exclusive to Rosalina. We have so many advantages over her in this matchup. Even if she gets under us, we can Leaf Shield and air dodge into her and let the flinch get us out of trouble. She's also super light. Just stack damage, and once she's around 160, bait the dash attack and throw her out. If you get a genuine opening up close (like her rolling into you), you can close the stock at 60-80 with a Mega Upper. You can practically force her to send Luma out because of Crash Bombs and Metal Blades, which you can then shoot up with Hard Knuckle or Mega Buster. As long as you don't start walking and shooting pellets you are very safe.

Well whether she's overrated or not is a matter of personal opinion and besides the point, it doesn't change the fact that many people including top players are already jumping on her bandwagon so she's going to be an ever present obstacle for at least a while. So whether now or a little later it'll probably be a good idea to really get into the matchup since it'll be probably one everyone's gonna have to know for a while. She's already showing up predominantly in many tournies.

As for ZSS in the mean time though, I actually haven't fought very many myself but the few I have always seem to come down to paralyzer spam and trying to jump over me constantly fishing for her somersault sweet spot. Does Up Smash have priority over it? I've never had a chance to find out and I don't know of any MM vs ZSS footage off hand to try to dissect...

 

[Kiyosuki]

Actually speaking of ZSS, a match I had today reminded me.... could I get any input on regular Samus? Honestly I feel like ZSS is easier than regular Samus as this character, it seems in capable hands everything this character does shuts Mega Man down almost completely. I could do absolutely nothing against this one Samus player I fought earlier, and on realizing that after two matches I decided to just try to figure it out for a few more matches for the sake of education even knowing I'm probably going to lose...and even after several matches I never feel like I'm not being manipulated by Samus and her kit in some way no matter what I try, it just seems like it has an answer to every strength Mega Man has.About the only thing I feel like I could do that was remotely threatening was gimping her off the stage with leaf shield, but no Samus player with half a brain is going to walk into that situation and you're not getting her there easily. Even when trying to bait things, with her moves she is always in a relatively safe position to recover from being tricked and like said...Samus at her best is played super defensively, she wants you to come to her so luring her isn't exactly easy.

Missiles destroy Metal Blades and can be fired a lot faster, her edge guard and off the stage tactics feel better, her aerials have more range and hit a lot harder, as long as the player is using her correctly (defensively) he'll always have a charge shot ready which makes trying to poke with lemons actually risky, her anti air options and ranged grab make aerial approaches even with short hops difficult and it doesn't help some of her best combos seem to involve uair. You don't have NEARLY the range or power to play defensively and playing offensive with this character just plays right into her hands. It's always really surprising to me just how disadvantaged MM feels against almost any competent Samus player I come across and this last match was just one of the worst, it feels like a really surprising bad matchup.

I know ZSS is the topic but I'm really really anxious for input on her with a suit on lol. Even against a lot of characters I lose to I rarely feel quite as completely shut down as I often do by regular Samus.

 

[---]

Never realized how tricky was until I faced one online. Arm Rotator shuts down Mega Man's spacing game completely, didn't realize it was buffed from Brawl either. Can see why he was high tier for quite a while in Brawl.

Definitely stated to see the value of Leaf Shield after that match up, kept him from juggling me a LOT. Though I can't help but wonder if Skull Barrier would have a lot of value as well.

 

[K-45]

Other chars that I think we beat, but don't need to write up a full explanation of (unless requested):

Can I request u to do megaman vs jiggs MU I've been having trouble fighting her lately.

Also I guess i'll throw my 2 cents in to the MU thread

: I feel like megaman is hard counter to ZZS. Her dash attack and stun gun are both stop by a single pellet. Any way she trys to throw us we can use rush cancel. And we out range her with ower pellets and metal blade. And if she try to attack from the air we can block and grab. I never had a problem aganst her or I may never faced a good one. In fact i'll call the match up 30/70 in megamans favor.

Edit: I've never faced a ZZS with custom moves.
:this battle is mostly about keeping your eye on the blue speed demon. Don't for get your pellets come out after the your metal blades. Try and force this guy into to the air and NEVER approach a sonic from the air. This battle more of a game of keep away try to use your pellets to stun and when u are in the air just try using leaf shield or metal blade to get on the ground. We can block everything he try and do to us and punish him. Just done try fighting sonic in the air or u will lose most of the time. This battle I would call 50/50 just stay on the defensive and try to keep the pressure on him with metal blades and pellets, and when u are scared use leaf shield most sonics run from it.
Edit: also one more tip about sonic never approach him using your dash attack and Dtilt. Just approach him using metal blades or pellets.

 

[Fenrir VII]

2 things.

First, rush cancel is gone now, so ZSS is a bit harder. The other matchups that this might largely affect seem to have mainly gotten hit with nerfs.

about ...
I really think we just stomp the zoning game on this one. we have slightly more mobility, noticeably in our fall/jump speed. Jiggly really doesn't have an answer for pellets, metal blade and dair zoning (and even uncharged fsmash on occasion)... she can't catch us for jumping around that mid range spacing.
She also has trouble edgeguarding us, as our recovery is fast vertical, which she can't catch without a guess (we have a LOT of timing options with jump before or after upB, wall jumps, etc). Best she can do is throw out a nair and hope we jump into it. If she jumps above our head, usmash is amazing. Fair and bair do well against her aerials, and uair just brutalizes her.

The Smash mantra since Isai coined it has been "don't get hit". While in most matchups, I prefer to take some risks in spacing to get higher potential rewards, this is one of those matchups that I DO NOT. In this matchup, you should actively try to keep jiggs at arm's length with zoning, and don't get hit. It's very possible.

I think Mega takes this one pretty decidedly.

 

[ChopperDave]

I'm reserving judgement on Jiggs until after she gets her C-stick aerials back, because that's when you'll really start to see expert Jiggs players bringing the Wall of Pain.

That said, Jiggs has fast horizontal air movement but slow vertical air movement, which plays well to Mega Man's strengths. (I find he has much more trouble against characters with fast vertical air speed, who can "fish" for a commitment with empty jumps and then punish with fast falled lag cancelled attacks. Danger Wrap helps against this drastically but it's not always an option.) Against all the Jiggs players I've faced online so far, it had been pretty easy to zone her with pellets, MBs, bairs, fairs, etc.

She also has a lot of trouble dealing with Leaf Shield. LS stuffs a lot of her aerials and hitstuns her long enough for you to grab her before she maneuvers away, making it tougher for her to do her Wall of Pain thing or juggle you. It also stuffs Rollout. And now that the LS toss had been buffed, it is a very good zoning and edge guarding option, as she has trouble getting out of the way with her slow vertical air movement.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I also want to say... do not roll against Jiggs... period. It's never worth the risk of rest.

 

[ChopperDave]

I also want to say... do not roll against Jiggs... period. It's never worth the risk of rest.

Also be careful going for grabs when she is grounded. Pretty sure Jiggs can duck under our grabs and dash grabs, then punish with Rest.

This is another way LS is useful in this matchup. If you have LS up when you go for a grab, the leaf hitstun will force her into a standing position, preventing her from doing this to you.

 

[K-45]

Thanks Fennrir Vll

Also about that ZZS match up I mention earlier even through rush cancel is gone I still say megaman is a counter pick for her. Not as much as a counter pick with rush but I still think that the match up is 38/62 in megaman favor still. Rush can still help megaman escape most combos just not ture combos.

 

[Just a Random Guy]

May I ask how to get rid of the villager? I really have trouble dealing with the lloyd rocket>fair thing "-.-

As for both Link and Tink I usually approach with nair, jab and/or ftilt to get rid of the proyectiles and stay on lemon max range so they can't use any special and I´m too far for any smash. if they just stay there blocking with the hylian shield you can either roll and grab, pivot grab or keep spamming until they get tired and try to approach in the air. Most Links I faced like to fair and then jab, just block or evade the hits and then punish. repeat the procces and wait for the RAGE!!!

BTW: how do you deal with the frame delay and lag? I lost most of my matches because I can´t move on reaction

 

[Fenrir VII]

You can kill Villager's rockets with metal blade and negate that problem.

You're spot-on for the anti-Link strategy



Also guys... Diddy is hard. Big newsflash I know. Really just gotta pellet the crap out of him to keep up.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Thanks Fennrir Vll

Also about that ZZS match up I mention earlier even through rush cancel is gone I still say megaman is a counter pick for her. Not as much as a counter pick with rush but I still think that the match up is 38/62 in megaman favor still. Rush can still help megaman escape most combos just not ture combos.

I dunno man... Really doesn't feel like a counter pick. Might need to readjust my strategy, but I think you might be overselling Mega Man's strengths against ZSS.

 

[---]

Got any advice against Diddy? Finally fought a decent one online and was surprised to see that his aerials/Monkey Toss were able to bypass Leaf Shield.

Maybe Plant Barrier would be a better pick for that match up? I don't know but I was caught off guard, his attacks have a lot more reach than they look.

 

[ScAtt77]

Personally, I think that Megaman actually wins the match-up against Diddy; pellets outright make diddy's camp game null and void as they clank with bananas and peanuts. I feel as if Megaman's natural zoning game should make it easy to react to Monkey Toss too; if you play the mid range game right, it's not too hard to pivot grab. Also, Leaf shield > Diddy's up-b. If you so much as graze him with a leaf while he's below the stage, Diddy is as good as dead; no footstool needed.

As far as up close goes however, Diddy definitely racks up damage much faster than us. Make sure to DI/Vector away from Diddy's back if he ever d-throws you. You will probably eat some damage from a fair/ one uair, but it's much better than eating three uairs and still being above Diddy. Careful with Diddy's aerials too; They tend to beat 1-2 pellets out if you mis-space, but the third pellet generally doesn't clank with them.

Ultimately, it feels as if the match up comes down to MM being able to kill diddy quite a bit earlier than he can kill MM as long as you avoid his uair.

 

[SSGuy]

The MU with Diddy would be less stressful if Mega Man wasn't as heavy as he is. He isn't heavy enough to live till dumb percents on a stale Uair, but he isn't light enough for the follow up to not work at earlier percents.

 

[Azazel]

Mario can do a 50% combo on megaman! and also its pretty safe for him to fish for since Dair is multi hit and Crosses up shield and has little landing lag (Such little lag is can combo into any frame 6 such as his Grab, U-tilt, f-tilt, Dsmash, Uair, anything faster like Jab and Up-B). I'll see about getting a quick vid of it.
when megaman is around 33-38%:
Dair > grab > D-throw > utilt > utilt > uair > uair > Up-B
I'll see about figuring out how to break it consistently. It seems like vectoring/DI can be used to break avoid the second u-tilt and dodge some of Up-B, but then again he can just simply settle for 1 U-tilt and go straight to Uair> Uair > Up-B

 

[SSGuy]

Mario can do a 50% combo on megaman! and also its pretty safe for him to fish for since Dair is multi hit and Crosses up shield and has little landing lag (Such little lag is can combo into any frame 6 such as his Grab, U-tilt, f-tilt, Dsmash, Uair, anything faster like Jab and Up-B). I'll see about getting a quick vid of it.
when megaman is around 33-38%:
Dair > grab > D-throw > utilt > utilt > uair > uair > Up-B
I'll see about figuring out how to break it consistently. It seems like vectoring/DI can be used to break avoid the second u-tilt and dodge some of Up-B, but then again he can just simply settle for 1 U-tilt and go straight to Uair> Uair > Up-B

I believe even without Rush Canceling, we are able to escape by the second up-tilt. I might have to play against another Mario because you might be right. I don't play enough of them to be able to respond for you.

 

[Locke 06]

I just played a mario on FG (so let me put that disclaimer there) and you can fall to the ground before the 2nd utilt hits and perfect shield it at 0-low%'s. Punish with your own utilt or a grab.

 

[Azazel]

Mario and guaranteed damage on megaman.
Dair landing lagbox > Dsmash/grab works any%
D-throw > Jab begins to work 0%
D-throw > Up-B begins to work ~5%
D-throw > U-tilt begins to work ~21%
U-tilt > utilt begins to work ~25%
U-tilt > Uair begins to work ~35%
Uair > Uair > Up-B begins to work ~30%

This I've experienced are true combos due to mario's high mobility making vectoring/DI not strong combo breakers.
When i say begins to work it means there's enough hitstun for them to be combos.

He can rack up damage fast and Dair and Grab can start all of these. this match up seems to be focused on snuffing mario's air approaches preemptively, good spacing so Dair is punishable and avoiding grabs .

 

[Fenrir VII]

I still say Mario is a hard matchup. Luckily we can gimp the crap out of him..

 

[Azazel]

I still say Mario is a hard matchup. Luckily we can gimp the crap out of him..

Here's a good one,
Jab > edge slip > Footstool > Fast fall > Nair
his floatiness allows Jab > edge slip > Footstool to be a true combo and he has very limited options so you can pretty much guarantee a kill by landing a Nair
He can possibly try to cape stall, but his fate should be sealed; getting the nair is so easy.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Mario has that obnoxious combo, but I have never felt threatened by him. He's so reliant on fire balls for anything past grab range. Mario jumping and launching fire balls does mess up MMs projectile game. The cool down on his fireball is too great for him to get much in after it though. Fair shuts his air game down. Space so you can get Dtilts in, but he not get hit by fire. I am going with even or slightly his favor 5:5 - 4:6. That's going off the millions of Marios on FG.

I played a ZSS today in FG who seemed to know the matchup. It went to her camping the gun and going for grabs if I jumped over it or tried pellets. The grab goes straight to her Fair on MM. Her mid-range game messes up MM if she camps hard enough. It's a stupid match, but I couldn't say she has a clear advantage. There are ways to get in her face, but I need more match-up experience to say if they are valid. It's a lot of reading on MM's part, though.

 

[Azazel]

I think that scrub marios don't realise that Dair is such a good move, so on FG you don't have to worry about spacing yourself, you should fight marios in tha mario threads
Flood and Dair can get past our Zoning. Mario's generally feel that fireball sucks, so if they are relying on it, they probs don't know how to play they match up.

 

[Locke 06]

I've started a writeup on Mario finally. I'm shifting it to even due to losing rush cancel and mixed opinions on the difficulty he gives people. Will do a Yoshi writeup after based on what we have discussed. If you have any unsaid thoughts on that, leave notes in spoiler tags at the end of your post.

NOW FOCUSING ON: Everyone's favorite dthrow>Uair monkey.

And my question: Can we use Rush to escape it at KO%'s? How frame tight is the dthrow>Uair? I have yet to actually play against a Diddy as Mega Man who utilizes this combo, but, from tournament videos that I've watched, going higher than Diddy is capable of, Leaf Shielding, and then getting back to the ground sounds like a solid counter play.


Double posting is bad, I know. Forgive me

 

[Fenrir VII]

And my question: Can we use Rush to escape it at KO%'s?

Need somebody to help me out with some knowledge here, as I'm not sure the answer to this after the 1.0.4 update.

Does Rush come out before, after, or the same as an airdodge when canceling hitstun?
Bonus question: does a 2nd jump come out before, after, or the same as an airdodge when canceling hitstun?

The answer to both of those will answer our options after being dthrown. Playing against a few Diddy's who have pulled it off, I am consistently able to airdodge before the uair connects, making it a frame trap like Sheik's dthrow > uair rather than a true combo at KO %s.
When they caught on to that, I started trying to double jump out of it instead of airdodge, but was getting hit more out of it before I jumped enough away from him. I would need more testing to confirm that. For some reason, I never tried UpB (airdodge is too tempting). @ Locke 06 you want to go into the lab later this week and test some stuff?

Regarding dthrow... at low-mid %s, it's best to DI it down and opposite the direction Diddy is facing.. you can DI out of some of his best combos by going too far behind him.
At high %s, I found it best to DI up and towards the direction Diddy is facing... causes you to go higher, making uair less reliable.

Leaf Shield is good against him in neutral but not great. Most of his aerials (otherwise really good moves) seem to beat it as you're falling, unfortunately. It's an AMAZING edgeguard against him though. (I also like Nairing him offstage... anything to kill his >B momentum and push him lower)

Pellets in general are very important in the matchup. Cancel bananas and peanuts with them. Diddy can punish Mega in the downtime between the 3 shots (particularly by throwing a banana), so it's important to stay moving.

This is a hard matchup for me. I don't think it's incredibly 1-sided, but it just feels like you're playing against a good character. If we can break the dthrow > uair combo with anything , Mega's mobility is good enough to make it back to the ground safely, so I think that will be a huge step in the right direction. Without that combo in particular, I believe the matchup will be slightly in our favor simply due to moderately effective zoning and superior killing/edgeguarding.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't have enough exp vs Diddy. So I won't be of much help here.

I'll name this MU Naner OoS vs MB OoS, though.

 

[ChopperDave]

Against characters like Diddy and Ness, who depend on their throws to net KOs, I find using Leaf Shield's ability to suddenly change your horizontal and/or vertical momentim super duper helpful, because unless you mistime it and they pick you up before your leaves "activate," it'll temporarily prevent them from being able to grab you and often give you an opportunity to counter grab.

I use b-reversed Leaf Shields to evade air attacks and stuff followups dash/pivot grabs in all our MUs, but for these MUs in particular that trick is positively lifesaving.

 

[Locke 06]

You can get grabbed through leaf shield, can't you? The moment they grab you, the leaves disappear...

 

[ChopperDave]

You can get grabbed through leaf shield, can't you? The moment they grab you, the leaves disappear...

It's possible, but hard and pretty luck dependent. The leaves will more often than not hitstun you long enough for the Mega Man to either counter grab you or spot dodge before your next grab attempt. The only way to grab "through" the leaves is to not get hit, which generally requires having reaaaally good range on your grabs or a tether.

The best time to grab a MM who is Leaf Shielding is during the activation period when the leaves don't have hitboxes. So, as a MM player, it's a good idea to learn how high in the air you need to be so that the leaves are hitbox-ready by the time you have fallen to grabbing height. This is easier against characters like Diddy and Ness, incidentally, because they are both short.

 

[Fenrir VII]

So Locke and I just played some matches my Diddy vs his mega... Trying to see if dthrow to uair could be broken.

The short answer is that airdodge is the only thing we have that gets us out of hitstun before the uair connects. This essentially means it's a frame trap, and Diddy can either try for uair or bait the airdodge... So it's a 50 50 that we'll die from that scenario.

2 things to affect this. I was able a couple times to attack his airdodge, then attack again and hit him. Not sure if this can be avoided.
If he DIed behind Diddy (and possibly down), it was very hard (potentially impossible) to land the uair. I had to choose to run before jumping, so that makes a nice 50 50 with other DIs at least.

More to come

 

[K-45]

I really think that we shouldn't review diddy kong yet just because everyone is expecting him to get nerf.

I Don't have as much experience battling diddy kong as much as others here.

From what I played aganst him it seems like it's 40/60 in his favor. He can just spam sideB and it has more priority then ower pellets and even ower metal blade. His up air is super strong and since megamans so heavy he can do Bthrow to up air until we are at 60%. The leafs have very little use in this fight just because of diddy meele range. But the up side is that he's super easy to gimp if we ever get the chance. Most diddy i've faced use his upB early to get back on the stage. Also he's faster so we need to depend on grabs more thenergy anything.

I haven't faced to many diddy so I don't know the match as well as others