Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Greward]

jumping over the gyro means getting slingshoted, not a good option

 

[Rush 2112]

Airdodge it? It's certainly not the safest option but jumping over it doesn't automatically mean you will get hit with slingshot.

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, okay. I think we're done with villager. I advise people who have not played against custom villager to... well, play against custom villager. If you don't know how the opponents' moves work, there's no foundation to even theorize a counterplay.

blah shoutouts to blah

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blah

We're going on break until the new patch comes out.

Free discussion until then. You can keep talking about Villager if you want... but some topics that I'd be interested in seeing:
- How do people feel about our MU now that the Diddy meta has advanced quite a bit since it was analyzed?
- Is there any other MU previously talked about that you have new opinions or approach differently than you used to?
- I debated having a discussion, but then decided against it. But that's a character I'd like to see informed opinions on, since I have negative experience against the character due to online, which is an environment that Mac seriously struggles in, and no play time through my friends offline.

And some stuff about this thread:

- How do you think this thread is doing in terms of depth and accuracy of analysis?
- How do you like the format of how we have been going through the cast?
- How do you like the format of discussion?
- What would you like to see changed?

For those last 4, feel free to PM me if you want to bash people (including me) and/or keep it private. This is not a place for dirty laundry.

 

[Fenrir VII]

It'd be real nice if the TO could keep up with the OP posts for the discussion...
That was obligatory... you're doing a great job.

So Diddy... I feel really good about the matchup now. It's still hard as Diddy is a good char, but we definitely have amazing keep-out tools, and DIddy actually has a decently hard time approaching. I do find it slightly in our favor now. If the patcch goes as people are expecting... I believe we'll be removing him from our hard matchups entirely. Now if we can just do something about the Sonics, Sheiks, and CFs of the world, we'll be grand (not that I think any of those are particularly terrible matchups, but those are the current hate matchups for me)

Lol Mac... Yeah are edgeguarding is very good and bthrow sets it up perfectly. Then onstage, pellets and metal blades disrupt his normal stuff... think this one is solidly our advantage. (I also think Mac is benefited by any lag as his rolls and lack of lag become almost unpunishable)

 

[Xavix]

Ice slasher does go through the lloyd but so does metal blade, and that goes farther. Plus, a pocketed ice slasher is pretty bad for us. Plus, if getting rid of the lloyd is your problem, your not a statue, you should have enough distance as mega man to jump over it.

The Ice slasher does very little in the way of damage, but that is because it is meant to FREEZE people, but villager doesn't have any follow-ups after using an Ice Slasher, whereas a villager with a metal blade is much more dangerous. Jumping over the Lloyd also seems to make most characters vulnerable to a punish from Villager, so I would recommend perfect shielding or using the Skull Barrier to reflect it.

 

[---]

My only suggestion would be maybe getting a general consensus on which customs are recommended the most for a particular match. Some match ups are obvious, while others aren't. Would be good to get a basic idea about as it could also help in the next round of the Custom Project.


Little Mac I find you have to play cautiously. IDK sometimes his Super Armor trips me up, and his rolls into F-Smash are always annoying. I need to practice on when to use the Charge Shot in this match more. We definitely have the advantage in this match up.

This is not a place for dirty laundry.

I'm not picking up your dirty socks again.

 

[Xavix]

My only suggestion would be maybe getting a general consensus on which customs are recommended the most for a particular match. Some match ups are obvious, while others aren't. Would be good to get a basic idea about as it could also help in the next round of the Custom Project.


Little Mac I find you have to play cautiously. IDK sometimes his Super Armor trips me up, and his rolls into F-Smash are always annoying. I need to practice on when to use the Charge Shot in this match more. We definitely have the advantage in this match up.



I'm not picking up your dirty socks again.

Custom moves! I have 3 custom sets that I vary with, because I believe that using different custom sets instead of the same one makes you more unpredictable, as well as covering certain matchups.
Metal Blade, Ice Slasher, Rush Coil, Skull Barrier
The setup I use most commonly. This (fixes?) some problems I had with the crash bomber and plant barrier for me, and is a better setup in my opinion (Works for most matchups)
Shadow Blade, Danger Wrap, Tengu (something IDK), Plant Barrier
Shadow blade > Plant Barrier > Grab > D-throw > Tengu > Danger Wrap is one of the most unique combos, as well as making a unique moveset for megaman. Does make his recovery a bit weaker though. (Best used for matchups involving characters without projectiles, preferrably ones that need to get up close and personal to do damage. Not the best setup for marth)
Metal Blade, Crash Bomber, Rush Coil, Plant Barrier
Crash Bomber works suprisingly well with the Plant Barrier in my expierence, so I really like this combo. (also covers most matchups)

 

[Crescent_Sun]

I'd like to retread some old analyses with a bigger emphasis on customs now that they're so much more widely used and are in for EVO. I personally have trouble fighting Customs Rosalina, and matchup discussion helps figure out how to play against them, as I was just getting the hang of fighting the non custom variant because of this thread.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Well, i know i don't contribute with anything but, as someone who still reads this thread for advice, i believe it's going pretty well as it is. I know the write ups take a lot of time to do, but the ones who are done (like Diddy and Shulk) help a lot understanding how to fight those two, and i think that the "character of the week" thing we have going on is nice, rather then discussing several characters at once or having a thread for each one of them.

 

[isaiah :)]

sorry i didn't want to go through 16 mages of thread to possibly not find anything, but can someone give me a run down?

id really like some insight against my main, pikachu. how does mega man fair against him. advantages? disadvatages? i haven't had a lot of match ups against mega man but i wanna be prepared for some good players.
thank you

 

[ForteX]

My biggest suggestion for this thread is to provide in the OP links to the post starting off a new character. This way, people won't need to shuffle through the whole thread to find discussion topics, they can just click them and go right to where it begins, and take in all the varied opinions, try out suggestions or be wary of things people warn about, and let all of that feedback go into how we customize our own playstyle.

It's really great when people who main other characters come here to talk about the matchup, because it's so easy to be engaged in the fight and get hit by things and consider them cheap or unbeatable. The Fox discussion really helped me improve that matchup by knowing what to look for in terms of weaknesses, instead of just playing a match and being salty about how powerful everything seems. I'd say keep adding quotes from people like that to the OP.

id really like some insight against my main, pikachu. how does mega man fair against him. advantages? disadvatages? i haven't had a lot of match ups against mega man but i wanna be prepared for some good players.
thank you

Pikachu, Zelda, and ROB are the matchups I have the most trouble with. Pikachu especially seems like the kind of character a decently skilled player could just pickup and play with little experience and still beat my MegaMan, I don't know what it is. Against characters like Pikachu that have reliable ways to disrupt me, I really rely on grabs to put myself back into a good position, but it seems like Pikachu somehow manages to low profile away from MegaMan's grab, maybe I'm unlucky? In general I have a lot of trouble with characters shorter than MegaMan because I can't effectively play aggressive bairs, either.

Also I get completely destroyed by Pikachu on Battlefield. I guess you could kind of confirm or deny this, do a lot of platforms actually help Pikachu out? Most characters don't fare too well against MegaMan's uairs on Battlefield, but I just can't land them on Pikachu. Hell, maybe I'm just bad. I really want to practice against Pikachu, so if you'd like to add me we can play practice rounds some time when I've got a few hours to spare.

That actually goes for anyone here, but I doubt a bunch of MegaMan mains really want to play MegaMan mirrors ever.

 

[ChopperDave]

sorry i didn't want to go through 16 mages of thread to possibly not find anything, but can someone give me a run down?

id really like some insight against my main, pikachu. how does mega man fair against him. advantages? disadvatages? i haven't had a lot of match ups against mega man but i wanna be prepared for some good players.
thank you

I think the consensus is that we have the upper hand against Pikachu.

Pikachu has a tough time getting around our walls o' lemons. Its a footsy heavy game that will end up in neutral a lot, and Mega Man is better at wracking up passive damage in neutral than Pikachu is due to his lemons.

The bigger problem is that Mega Man is hard for Pikachu to KO. We're heavy, and if we play it safe we can stay far away from your fsmash, and DI out of your uthrow->downB combo, and simply shoot you out of your Skull Bash.

We don't have the easiest time KOing either, but all it takes is for us to land one good fsmash, usmash, or utilt punish to kill at low-to-mid percentages. In general we kill earlier and die later, and if we get the stock lead we can zone Pickachu pretty hard and live to frustratingly high percentages.

 

[~Burst~]

Pikachu does not have a hard time against jabs at all since his up b flat out ignores them.
Simply up b when he commits to jab and you get free damage. Even if he full hop cancels instead of short hop he can't punish it.
The second jolt motion knocks mega in a way for him to be air juggled easily.

 

[Fenrir VII]

That's just not true. You can knock pika out of quick attack with pellets.
Now there may be a specific timing where he cancels the pellet hitbox, but it's unreliable at best. Pellets are an incredibly effective lock down for his up b.

@ ChopperDave nailed it. Megaman gives pika a hard time by forcing approaches, and then stuffing them. It's still a fairly even matchup until pika dies from like 70 on to various things, but can't kill with anything safe until 120+ because mega is a fatty.

 

[~Burst~]

Unreliable? The move has I frames with a hitbox from a set point, you can't interrupt it you're doing it right. Theres no way for you to prevent an up b approach once you have committed to a jab already. All you need is one successful snag in and the flow the match is in pikachu's hands. What I read is that pikachu has a tough time getting passed jabs and he doesn't that option is hella strong in this match up.

 

[Greward]

Quick attack outprioritizes pellets, and the second hit of quick attack is a very easy setup to stuff like up smash.
Pika can gimp us with relative ease using bair, specially against rush. other than that his kill options are limited to punishing a roll with up smash and quick attack setups.
MM also has a hard time getting a ko move on pika, but since he is light we can kill with throws. Bair is hard to hit, up smash is risky, although if we get an early uptilt it's super cool.
Thunderjolts are gimmicky to shoot down with pellets though, so camping as Pika may be viable.
Pika has heavy combos on MM since we're heavy and fast faller, comboing up to ~40% is the usual thing.
I think Pika has the upper hand, actually.

Btw, I believe our worst matchups are Sheik (close to unwinnable at high level), then Pit/Yoshi/Falcon (winnable but hard). At least with customs OFF. Sheik should be nerfed though, and with a little luck we might see a nerf on Falcon and maybe Yoshi.

 

[isaiah :)]

so should i be close range with him then?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Pika has vulnerable lag at the start of quick attack and halfway through. It's not hard to throw out pellets (while still moving, mind you) and cover those options. I've personally had a lot of success with this, so I really can't agree with you here.

Assuming we can tech, how does bair gimp us? It doesn't have a strong spiking hitbox, and the final hit sends mostly upwards. Sure he can hit it with a good recovery guess (if he misses it's potentially very bad for him), but he shouldn't be netting kills off of it.

Want to point out that the best high-level match I've seen in this matchup was zucco vs ESAM, who essentially IS Pikachu from the Brawl area... And zucco beat him fairly convincingly

Also I strongly disagree with the Yoshi statement. Sheik and CF are bad matchups, and Pit I can see, but I think we fairly strongly beat Yoshi once we realize how to edgeguard him (not hard)

 

[~Burst~]

You want to be in a range where mega man's jab isn't an issue but close enough to where you can snag with up b then harass him in the air and off stage. Mixing up where you use quick attack(Air and grounded, diagonal,vertical, and horizontal) can also throw the mega man off balance. Obviously we have options against this so you can't just throw it out as an end all option but it is a great option if you know they're going to try to jab. Mega man's f smash in particular does not interact with hit boxes so you will end up getting hit should he decide to throw one out trying to read an up b attempt.

 

[Locke 06]

"Do what you're doing but do it better." Is what I'm hearing. Which is nice to hear, even though I need to just... Be better. Like I said before, if people want to help, then help. I'm not going to ask for help on OP/summaries because I know I'll do them eventually and don't really care too much/care more about facilitating discussion. I'll try and emphasize figuring out custom recommendations, but there are a lot of people who have minimal custom-on experience. It's like trying to emphasize stage picks. A lot of people just go with what they're comfortable with (which isn't bad, as comfort is important). Thanks to those who have given input about how things are run. Always looking to improve everything.


There's no way Quick Attack outprioritizes anything. It's not disjointed, strong, or anything. What is more likely is that it clashes, but goes through without a hitbox similar to Palutena and Little Mac's tilts.

Mega has more tools to deal with QA shenanigans than most, but QA is still a dumb move that can be abused. The diagonals/cross ups are hard for Mega to cover without a read (up air) and Pika's damn fast and annoying with it.

Pika's BAir doesn't always send the opponent backwards, so teching isn't always an option (especially when you're sent very low). Also, QA allows Pika to do go deep and get back to the ledge faster anyone. He also has less time on the ledge before he can act, similar to when characters use tethers, which is dumb, but it's a thing.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Re: pika bair.
You can DI the initial multihits and seemingly go whichever direction you want to in most circumstances. But as long as you you DI up and towards the edge (and stage tech when necessary, which can be buffered), the final hit won't kill us until ridiculous percentages. If it hits away from the edge, we get sent high enough to still recover fairly easily.

Pika has decent edgeguarding tools overall, but I don't see him as a massive gimping threat against us

Also please don't take my joke as serious. I'm just trolling you

 

[isaiah :)]

Thank you all for the input, i think i can figure out the best game plan against mega man now

 

[Xavix]

Thank you all for the input, i think i can figure out the best game plan against mega man now

We've been had!

 

[Greward]

There's no way Quick Attack outprioritizes anything. It's not disjointed, strong, or anything. What is more likely is that it clashes, but goes through without a hitbox similar to Palutena and Little Mac's tilts.

Grounded moves have priority based on how much damage they deal (with a few exceptions). Special moves have... special priority, depending on the move. Most projectiles have the lowest priority in the game, and pellets are not one of those exceptions. Pika's QA will collide with pellets, increase hitlag a bit, outprioritize them, then continue its path while losing no hitbox.
Pika can react to pellets with a QA. And it will beat pellets.

You can DI the initial multihits and seemingly go whichever direction you want to in most circumstances. But as long as you you DI up and towards the edge (and stage tech when necessary, which can be buffered), the final hit won't kill us until ridiculous percentages. If it hits away from the edge, we get sent high enough to still recover fairly easily.

Pika has decent edgeguarding tools overall, but I don't see him as a massive gimping threat against us

Smash DI has been insanely nerfed in this game and thus it depends more on which way Pika is moving while doing the bair than what smash DI we do. And there's also the chance that he will just fast fall while hitting the bair which will make the last hit not connect while leaving us close to the blast zone, he will get back because he has a super long recovery but Rush won't be enough.



About Yoshi... he is not that easy to edgeguard. He has the fastest air speed (or second fastest, dunno) combined with a DJ + air dodge make it hard. And he can use eggs as a barrier against Bair. It's definitely possible though, but not easy.
I believe he wins the matchup because of how easily he can approach us, how strong is his combo game at pretty much any %, outright beating us in the air beside a very well spaced Fair. Eggs are very hard to deal with even as MM, grab command is good against MM, and jab, nair and uptilt are excellent tools against our character. I have some knowledge of the matchup (had Raptor in APEX pools).
Although Yoshi is super underrated in the States, maybe because there aren't any notably good players with him there.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yoshi's 2nd jump is a huge commitment. Once he is forced to use it, he is committed to the path he takes vertically, and horizontally to an extent. He cannot easily sweetspot the edge from below with it, so he's forced to space it incredibly well or pop above the stage (either landing on stage or just trying to grab the ledge). as a note, I'm neglecting him recovering high because he will be forced to recover low or for distance, and punishing his landing is similar to any other char.
His only options coming out of the super armor portion of his jump are do nothing, attack, upB, or air dodge. All of these are punishable by a spaced/timed bair from slightly above. Bair also outranges and outprioritizes his normal upB if you are simply in position for it. His fall speed is also similar to ours, so we can simply jump and cover his entire fall path, outside of his range, then attack upB or airdodge on reaction.

I don't know where "beating us in the air" comes in when bair literally outranges and outprioritizes everything he has in the air. I can't argue that his aerials aren't good or anything, but I think this is an offbase statement. I'm also not saying we have to commit to bair (and get punished for it)... if he's in range, we attack. if not, land and keep the spacing. uair is also very good against any aerial approaches.

SH pellets pop eggs thrown at the distance that he needs to to counter our spacing, and he has trouble approaching through the pellets (thus has to go over, which is a risky position for him)

I feel like I've played hundreds of Yoshis... including some successful ones from the ladder, and I've been firmly convinced this is our favor. Of course Yoshi punishes hard, but I just think we win overall. *shrug* not sure where the disagreement comes in.

 

[CopShowGuy]

We have one really good Yoshi in my group and one pretty good one. I beat the pretty good one more often than not. I probably beat the really good one 1 in 10. Mega Man seems to win on paper but Yoshi has better air speed than Mega Man and can keep himself very safe while poking at us. Jumping to shoot an egg out of the air isn't worth it. Also Yoshi's recovery is way better than you're giving credit for. Most of the time he doesn't even need the second jump to recover.
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Also I agree that this topic is going well but could be done better. Definitely link to the opening post of each MU in the opening post. We're getting good discussion from both sides in each matchup so that's all we really need. The "better" parts are just a convenience.

 

[Rush 2112]

From my experience running under an egg(depending on its trajectory) is the better option. If you try and shoot an egg that is too close you will get hit by the eggsplosion.

 

[Fenrir VII]

If he doesn't need the 2nd jump, he'll likely upB first, which you can space/time out with a bair to force him to 2nd jump. I mentioned that. I'm not saying his recovery doesn't go far, I'm saying he is slightly limited in the choices he can make, and literally all of them lose to bair if we position ourselves to punish. We are very scary to Yoshi trying to recover... Probably one of the scariest in the game. Our kit and fall speed match up to his recovery very well. You can position yourself outside of his range, then bair whatever he has to commit to on reaction.

I agree with running under the egg, except when he throws the low one, which we can't go under (this is a great option if he is in the air though). Basically, we can pellet faster than he can throw eggs. If you keep the pellets out in front and SH height as you approach /space (as you should), then you will be shooting the eggs out of the air before they get close enough to hit you. If you don't have a pellet out when he throws one, the only option is to shield or avoid the egg, then shoot the NEXT one (or Yoshi himself if he tries to approach). I'm not suggesting shooting eggs on reaction. I'm suggesting keeping pellets at the egg Heights to shield them. Normal good pellet play, really

 

[Greward]

Once you get close enough to do a Bair, then he will DJ + air dodge, efectively leaving him out of range from a punish by ourselves. If he can't do this he'll probably try to recover high, where he has some cool options to land combined with his incredible air speed (wavebounce, good aerials, sometimes side B or down B since he stops his momentum for a while).

He will usually full hop egg if he knows what he's doing, leaving him enough time to land with nair or neutral B. I like best to run under them and shoot some pellets at him so it doesn't become a 50/50. If he uses grounded egg it's not that good. Outprioritizing them with bair is no easy feat, fair is easier but still not easy. Best way is to power shield them or shoot them down with pellets. Most of the match by campy yoshi's (which unfortunately for them is about 90% of them) is about avoiding the eggs while trying to punish it with MB. I think we win the campy battle though, it's when yoshis are good and go on the approach that they're fearful. He is kind of like mario but adding better range, stronguer moveset overall, better physics, aerial grab and heavier and losing the melee grab and nasty grab combos. He has incredible anti air options too.
Pellets are ok in this matchup but not our main damage option. MB works better imo. As for side B, none of them is really good, i'd go with danger wrap tho.

 

[Rush 2112]

I agree with running under the egg, except when he throws the low one, which we can't go under

It is possible as long as the egg is closer to the peak of it's low arc. When Megaman starts a dash his head goes way down, almost to ducking height. A few times, usually by fluke, I run right under a low projectile like an egg or mario's fireball.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

I've tried asking a few places without really any answer, so I'm wondering how Mega Man's matchup with Rosa is under customs? I find that her ability to use projectiles and warp luma really messes up with the various modes I switch between when fighting most characters. What strategy/loadout should I be using against a Rosalina that can warp Luma and use projectiles?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Could we go into the olimar matchup? This is the one matchup that seems traditional mega man pellet play doesn't seem like our best option, or we must do it in a unique way I should say.

I found he is one of the only characters that we actually need to find a good way to approach, or maybe I am just playing him wrong.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'd be in favor of olimar... Let's see where the patch takes things first

 

[D0U8leB]

Speaking of patchups, what do you like to see changed?

I wouldn't mind if our Fair or Bair would have less landing lag,
just so that we can have a slightly better neutrak game.

 

[Locke 06]

Yoshi does have trouble with lemons. His only answer to that is a super aggressive NAir or spaced FAirs, which are really dumb and annoyingly safe on shield, but beaten with a well timed utilt or pivot fsmash/lemons. I'm not sure if it's safe when spot dodged. I need to spot dodge more in general.

So he ends up egg camping. Cue skull barrier.

The other thing Yoshi does is just slowly push you to the edge, like everyone else. With a fast jab and NAir, it's difficult to push back, in my experience.

Usmash also eats Yoshi's double jump, as do some weird multi-hits in the game (not BAir).
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Moves don't have "special priority" because priority doesn't exist. Projectiles don't have low priority, they just are easier to clank with since you can time it.
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Olimar - Cue self promotion. http://www.twitch.tv/battlebuddiesgaming/v/3935061?t=1h32m39s

Pellets shoot down pikmin except for purples. Yellows arc differently. Metal blade & Crash Bomb do work while pellets keep Olimar out. Otherwise, there's a good old projectile battle for you.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The only issue I have with Oli is that some of his moves are just absurdly strong... he has a deceiving grab-range and combos out of it, and he has really weird clank mechanics since all his moves are essentially projectiles (usually works against him, but I've seen it the other way)

I don't think this matchup is terrible, but it's super weird if you haven't played it before. lol

now is the time where I tell everybody to play on the ladder... one of the only ways to get non-terrible olimar practice.

 

[Greward]

Yoshi is far away from having a trouble to pellets. Nair into pellets or dash attack will work. He might toss an egg over the pellets too. Dair might work depending on position, and the reward is huge. Oh and fair is an option too. Combine all those anti pellets options with a grab command, and a breaking shield Dair.

If he egg camps then he's playing the matchup wrong. We have a chance in a projectile battle. Reflectors aren't really worth it against yoshi's eggs tho, but no down b is good in this matchup. With customs it should be better since we should gain more than him.

Up smash first hit has a strong knockback, that's why it beats yoshi's double jump.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I thought I heard somewhere that leaf stooling yoshi when he is coming from low works really well to gimp him.

I have tried a few times to no avail.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

Is there a reason no one seems willing to give advice on the customs Rosa matchup? I asked both here and the Rosa boards and no one ever wants to talk about it. Just not enough play experience?

 

[CopShowGuy]

I don't play enough with customs or enough against Rosalina to comment.