Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[HalcyonDays]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...&v=9G_0R37HD_A&feature=player_detailpage#t=37

If you shoot a lemon just as Fox is about to hit you, so basically a standing sweet spot, Fox can "invince" his way through. But it doesn't happen too often.

Only thing I can really add is that UpB can sometimes get you out of a few of his combos.

Pretty much this. Maybe it's just me, but I find it happens in a lot of my matches against Fox.

I guess it probably has something to do with the lemon "clanking" with Fox's illusion, and it removes the illusion's hitbox, but the actual movement of the side-B still continues, meaning it's a good positioning tool for Fox to get in.

Also of note is just how much easier it is for Fox to throw out Up-smashes and Up-Airs without too much fear of a punish. He has kill potential that is low-risk and high-reward that is only really matched by Megaman's B-air. I'd personally be most wary about Fox's Up-smash and Up-Air.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I love love love uair in this match. Again, Fox's horizontal mobility isn't good, so he has a heck of a time getting around it without burning an air-dodge (and then eating another uair or usmash). As such, I personally love BF (or as I call it, the wind fortress), because it is so easy to platform trap with uair and land it. It also helps that uair links with itself and does an easy 10-20% (when again, your target is 70%)

Most Foxes I play use Reflector while being hit by uair which sends it back down. I don't fight a lot of Foxes but is it actually possible to hit a non-panicked Fox player with a full uair string?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Essentially, if you bait Fox to use reflector in the air in fear of an uair, he's a sitting duck if you don't send one (hello bair or delayed uair). The reflected uair doesn't do too much to us, especially if there are platforms, so I don't consider it much of a concern.

To your point, though, I'm honestly not sure if Fox can reflect an uair while he's getting hit by it. I'll try to test that out. I don't believe it diminishes the move all that much even if he can, though..

One other point, I have seen Fox reflect after the final hit of an uair... shot him upwards like no tomorrow because the reflector stops his gravity for a second... so at the minimum, it's a risk to try while the move is connecting.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Just went to the Fox boards to ask them to join this discussion.

One other point, I have seen Fox reflect after the final hit of an uair... shot him upwards like no tomorrow because the reflector stops his gravity for a second... so at the minimum, it's a risk to try while the move is connecting.

Can he actually die from that?

 

[ChopperDave]

Essentially, if you bait Fox to use reflector in the air in fear of an uair, he's a sitting duck if you don't send one (hello bair or delayed uair). The reflected uair doesn't do too much to us, especially if there are platforms, so I don't consider it much of a concern.

To your point, though, I'm honestly not sure if Fox can reflect an uair while he's getting hit by it. I'll try to test that out. I don't believe it diminishes the move all that much even if he can, though..

One other point, I have seen Fox reflect after the final hit of an uair... shot him upwards like no tomorrow because the reflector stops his gravity for a second... so at the minimum, it's a risk to try while the move is connecting.

I catch a ton of Foxes with bair for the KO after conditioning them to expect uair juggles. Fox's awful horizontal movement speed in the air makes him fun to mindgame.

 

[Locke 06]

Just went to the Fox boards to ask them to join this discussion.

It's okay. It's not like I did that already or anything.

For those who have never experienced or seen a good Fox, here's probably the best one in the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXVgH2GGVUM - It's not vs Mega, it's vs Diddy, but just watch what he does and consider how Mega Man deals with that kind of Fox.

To me, Fox's biggest flaw is that he lacks safety on shield. However, everything requires top notch reaction speed to punish properly. Dsmash can be walk>utilt'd on block. Usmash can be dash>usmash'd (or dash grab which is easier). NAir can be punished with usmash OoS, but you have to be very very quick.

His counterplay is to just... not hit your shield. If you watch what Megafox is doing, he just dances around his opponents' shield waiting for his opponent to press a button and then punish. Rolling vs Fox is a good way to get usmashed or dash attacked.

Fox's utilt and jabs are probably his biggest tools vs Mega.

 

[Timbers]

Fox's aerial mobility is trash. This makes him have a really hard time getting through pellets, as he doesn't really have the option of jumping over it.
Fox has good damage output and above average killing tools, but we significantly win the killing war here, as long as we can land something (even bair). Also we can dthrow > bair > bair string him into other things, utilt starts killing around 70.

regarding edgeguarding.. Let me start with Fox. When we go low, he has nothing that can edgeguard us off-stage except for falling nair (which won't kill in most cases) and falling bair (which requires remarkable timing and us missing a tech to hit/kill). I could see him trying rising 2nd jump dair or even fair, but those still require timing and likely won't kill. He mainly likes to stay on stage and try to cover ledge getup options.

When we're edgeguarding... Fox has a lot of options, but none of them is undefendable. illusion is punishable on prediction or reaction (depending on spacing), and Firefox can be hit out of the startup and the travel path.
If you chip him out of an illusion (which is far harder to edgeguard than Firefox), you force him to Firefox low, which is a nair/fair/dair/salad gimp kill for you. He is typically forced to Illusion just above stage height or to the ledge, due to its long cooldown (he doesn't want to go high with it just to be a sitting duck for a second or so after it ends).

Fox's flexibility of being able to firefox and illusion at different times to throw off opponents actually makes him pretty hard to edgeguard for most opponents. He can Firefox above the ledge and go downwards to snap to it or upwards onto the stage... or he can just illusion at the same location, etc. imo, Megaman is easily one of the best chars at edgeguarding him in the game, because he doesn't have to play this guessing game. Instead of guessing the timing of above ledge illusion vs above ledge firefox, Mega can simply throw a metal blade (or pellet... or even leaf shield) and cover both options. Then you have time to move and cover the illusion to the ledge with a falling nair, or react to a low firefox. (This is kind of how Samus has edgeguarded Fox with missiles etc in every Smash game)
I said a while back that Mega Man feels specifically designed to counter Fox's recovery options... this is what I mean by that. We're able to throw a Metal Blade to cover the high options, falling nair to cover the low, and then a number of options to finish the stock. You can also try to position yourself as a falling barrier to cover all illusion paths using leaf shield, but I've had fairly random success with that. sometimes he just passes through it... sometimes I get a kill, so I'm not sure how reliable it is.

I love love love uair in this match. Again, Fox's horizontal mobility isn't good, so he has a heck of a time getting around it without burning an air-dodge (and then eating another uair or usmash). As such, I personally love BF (or as I call it, the wind fortress), because it is so easy to platform trap with uair and land it. It also helps that uair links with itself and does an easy 10-20% (when again, your target is 70%)


I think this match is a solid 6-4 for mega man. That said, I would consider using Fox against another Mega just to avoid the ditto. I think Fox is a very solid char with good killmoves and damage potential, but I definitely don't think he wins this matchup. Mega's edgeguarding options are amazing against him, our uair allows us to put on damage, and our kill moves work really early.... so this becomes a "if you keep up with him or get a gimp, you win" type matchup, and I think that is consistently doable.

Everybody needs to listen to this. Fox being a fast character means nothing in this MU. He still has a "meh" sh game and unsafe aerial approaches, and no way to get through pellets.

MM's grabgame/range is GOOD in this match. I feel like I need to emphasize this.

I don't know what numbers I'd throw on this MU, but this analysis is pretty spot on.

Also of note is just how much easier it is for Fox to throw out Up-smashes and Up-Airs without too much fear of a punish. He has kill potential that is low-risk and high-reward that is only really matched by Megaman's B-air. I'd personally be most wary about Fox's Up-smash and Up-Air.

This is actually sort of inaccurate. Fox's kill moves have a lot of endlag. Fox usmash is not safe - you can shield it, drop shield, and running usmash him. or just usmash oos on shield If there is not enough shieldpush.

Most Foxes I play use Reflector while being hit by uair which sends it back down. I don't fight a lot of Foxes but is it actually possible to hit a non-panicked Fox player with a full uair string?

Fox's reflector has a lot of endlag, and it becomes much more dangerous for him to throw it out than for you to throw out a uair. uair, bair, usmash are all things that Fox is deathly afraid of when in the air, as has been pointed out - he has poor aerial mobility.

I've never looked to try reflector during MM's uair, but I'm hesitant to trust this. Reflector startup is 6 frames, which is quite a bit longer than an airdodge.

I've been waiting for Fox for sooo looong.

Fox is a monster. He combos us for days, his recovery is difficult for us to punish, and his speed gets him in very easily. He is definitely one of our toughest match ups, but Mega Man still has the tools to win. Your best friends in this match up are your shield and your pellets.

Fox will dash attack to get past your pellets. It is ESSENTIAL that you learn how to properly jump n' shoot. Once he is anywhere closer than max pellet range, you should jump backwards while shooting or shield. Otherwise, he'll get in and ruin you. The last thing you want is to get hit by an Utilt at low percent. You CAN get out at below ~15% by shielding but getting hit anywhere after that will rack up your damage till ~50%. Fox's moves just tend to seamlessly string into one another, so shield should really be abused.

What recoveries are easier to punish than Fox's as MM? Dair seems pretty low commitment to throw out against Fox's upB, and metalblades can hit Fox out of sideB easily.

DA does not get past pellets. It clanks with the first one and he'll eat any subsequent pellets afterwards.

Fox does not utilt string MM until 50%, you can upB out of it immediately.

It's okay. It's not like I did that already or anything.

For those who have never experienced or seen a good Fox, here's probably the best one in the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXVgH2GGVUM - It's not vs Mega, it's vs Diddy, but just watch what he does and consider how Mega Man deals with that kind of Fox.

To me, Fox's biggest flaw is that he lacks safety on shield. However, everything requires top notch reaction speed to punish properly. Dsmash can be walk>utilt'd on block. Usmash can be dash>usmash'd (or dash grab which is easier). NAir can be punished with usmash OoS, but you have to be very very quick.

His counterplay is to just... not hit your shield. If you watch what Megafox is doing, he just dances around his opponents' shield waiting for his opponent to press a button and then punish. Rolling vs Fox is a good way to get usmashed or dash attacked.

Fox's utilt and jabs are probably his biggest tools vs Mega.

Diddy and MM are so different. At least Fox has a groundgame vs. Diddy, and more notably jab cancel followups (apples to oranges though, Diddy still does very well against Fox in different ways). A more accurate representation of this MU actually is Larry vs. NinjaLink's first match at Kawaii Kon last weekend: http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/643318099 ( 3:14:30 ). I'm not sure if Larry or Megafox are better, but Larry does do very well at these nationals/regionals that Megafox does/can not attend. Jab cancels are just cheese damage on MM, as he doesn't get knocked up high enough for any followups (until high %) outside of repeated jab cancels, which can be escaped after ~4 repetitions (~12%). As long as you're mindful of escaping then you're fine imo. There's a good example of NinjaLink trying to DI the wrong way (into Fox instead of away) in a jab cancel and ends up eating 25%, so its a good showcase of what not to do.

 

[D0U8leB]

Ive gathered some data from several threads, and thus credit goes to Thinkaman, Aerolfos and Indigo Jeans.

Comparing Speed + Range (Range/Length; square cubes of wind hill/drug store omega

Characters | Mega Man | Fox
Walk speed * | 38| 4
Run speed * | 27 | 3
Air speed* | 1.1, rank 11 | 0.96, rank 30
Fall speed* | 8 | 1
Fast Fall speed* | 9 | 1
Grab sp (frames) | 6 | 6
D-Grab sp (fr) | 8 | 10
Pivot Grab sp (fr) | 9 | 11
Perfect Pivot length | 3 | 5
Grab range | 2 | 1.5
D-Grab range | 6.5 | 6
Landing Lag Aerial (in Frames) N-,F-,B-,U-,Dair & Overall | N0 , F19 ,B20, U19 , D24 , Ov82 | N11,F27, B15 ,U22,D25, Ov100

* Rank 1-48, NO Mii fighters

Grab range is something I'm currently researching myself, thus not final results. Hope to finish it anytime soon.

Considering the comparison, we can conclude that MM excels in Airspeed, grab speed overall and in grab range. Fox however, excels in Walk, Run and Fall speed overal. Besides that, his Perfect Pivot length is much further, meaning that Fox mains have a advantage when it comes down to Perfect Pivot grabs.

Ps. Would someone to send me a PM, in how to put this sort of data in a table for in the future ? -> Fixed!

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox being a combo damage racking monster on heavies is a double edged sword for him too. Mega Man can also combo him.

Battlefield is a good Fox stage as well because he can use platforms to apply pressure from below. His air mobility is bad, but his falling speed is the best in the game. This let's him land fast after using an aerial and following up again with another one.

Tossing up Fox in the air is the way to go, imo. Fox doesn't like this, since he needs to rely on Down-B stalling (which thankfully for Fox also reflects back U-air Tornados), timed air-dodges, side-B to escape or an aerial to stop the assault. You have an answer to chase Fox with all these.

Lemons annoy Fox because you force him to run in with shield, something he can't do to interrupt dash start up btw. Use this knowledge to space yourself against Fox.

Down-B is good in this matchup but it doesn't dictate the result nor shut down Mega Man. Just be careful of using F-smash Charge Shots to hit Fox, more often than not I've won the MU this way because of a thirsty edge-guarder Mega Man.

Matchup is Fox's favor, but nothing more than 55:45 imo, 60:40 in Fox's favour if you're a pessimist. I actually think that none of Mega Man's matchups in this game are particularly horrible, B-tier suits him fine.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

What recoveries are easier to punish than Fox's as MM? Dair seems pretty low commitment to throw out against Fox's upB, and metalblades can hit Fox out of sideB easily.

DA does not get past pellets. It clanks with the first one and he'll eat any subsequent pellets afterwards.

Fox does not utilt string MM until 50%, you can upB out of it immediately.

Dair doesn't always connect because Fox's Up B has a hitbox the entire time.
He can DA during the down time of your three pellet string.
I'm pretty sure you can't Up B out of it the entire time. Only below ~15%.

 

[Greward]

Dair won't hit fox if he is hit when recovering fully vertical, if he's recovering diagonally it will.
I believe fox has a slight advantage. -1 for us i'd say. Overall superior dmg output and he has options to get up close and personal. He has some problems landing a KO move though and can die early.

 

[Locke 06]

I wouldn't say Fox's groundspeed is meaningless. Foxtrot/dash out is a really strong reset button when he needs it, and it adds to his strong punish game. His high fall speed makes pellets not as strong against him as against other characters (sonic), but it is true that Fox has a lot of trouble with them due to poor range and poor aerial approach.

Last day for Fox. We'll switch tomorrow to someone very different. Stay tuned.

 

[ForteX]

I've mentioned this in another thread, and I don't feel like reading the essays written in this thread to see if anyone has mentioned it, and if they have, let's just consider it reiteration for how important it is:

Read side Bs. If you see it happening or feel it in your Mega balls just turn around and charge that buster. Don't get greedy with it, just turn and fire when the animation ends and Fox starts falling.

 

[Locke 06]

Yay. Fox over. Now when people ask advice on the Fox MU, you can just direct them here.

Special thanks to @ DavemanCozy and @ Timbers for stopping by. Really great posts by you two, helping us understand how Fox's techs interact with Mega's fallspeed/weight.

--------
On mobile, so I'm not going to write much.
Villager time until Tuesday.

Have fun.

 

[ForteX]

I remember when the demo first came out and people suspected that Villager was specifically a counter for MegaMan, but I've never thought it was the case. Because MegaMan doesn't have Diddy's weakness of not being able to dispense a banana (Metal Blade) if Villager takes it, Villager can't cripple one of MegaMan's tools with pocket. I wish I could explain this in a way that isn't "oversight", and to be honest, I'm worried it might eventually be patched out.

Naturally though, Villager can pocket pretty much everything except for usmash, dsmash, bair and fair, and to varying degrees of effectiveness. A Hard Knuckle pocket becomes Bowling Ball 2.0 with zero charge time, and of course a pocketed fsmash is frightening beyond reason. In general though, pocket is MegaMan's best friend, as long as you keep up with it just as well as the Villager player is. Eager Villagers, or Villagers who don't know MegaMan != Diddy Kong will end up taking Metal Blade, especially if they find you use it a lot (and of course, it's basically your default weapon, so you do, right?). If Villager pockets Metal Blade, you're in the clear for as long as he has it, since he'll have to hold it before throwing it, making returning it take twice as long as it would normally - not to mention it disappears pretty quickly.

I think it goes without saying that when Villager has something in his pocket, you're free to throw whatever projectile at him you want, and MegaMan has the distinct advantage of being made mostly of low knockback projectiles, so most of what Villager can take from you isn't even something he can punish with. Knowing that the Villager's pockets are full allows you to take advantage of fsmash again, and if he has something like Crash Bomb or Leaf Shield, if he throws it barely matters. I'm not trying to say that it's time to start spamming fsmash the second he pockets Metal Blade, but I am saying it becomes a safer option to use responsibly, like you always use it (RIGHT?).

Lots of Villagers like to use Lloyd as an approaching tool, to keep them safe for a follow up, but MegaMan has tools for this sort of thing too. Judge how much time you have and react accordingly. If the spacing is just so, Metal Blade first and then Crash Bomb, to disrupt Villager and destroy Lloyd. If you don't have as much space, Crash Bomb, since it'll kill Lloyd on the first hit. If the Villager jumps after using the Lloyd approach, shield Lloyd and remain shielded to punish the aerial, or just respect the rocket and get out of the way.

Campy Villager is tons of low impact fun, too. Put up a tree and camp the edge of the stage, trying to bait an approach, right? Maybe even put an axe into it to have it ready to fall as soon as you get close. Nah. MegaMan invented camping enemies who hide behind shields because their projectile game is balls in comparison to MegaMan's. Crash Bomb and Metal Blade were made to deal with this - Metal Blade because it'll go right through the tree, and Crash Bomb because it will immediately explode, with which you can follow more Crash Bombs until the tree is dead or the Villager is tired of your ****. Best part is, what's he going to do? Pocket Metal Blade or Crash Bomb? Cry me a river.

The counterpart to this is the Villager who remembers the axe does damage. Axe is strong and scary, but it's pretty obvious that Villager is hungry for blood when his tree is across the stage somewhere. If he's smart, the tree has one hit to go on either side, so now you have to deal with the equivalent of strong Rosalina and immobile Luma, but MegaMan's options are pretty good both for getting out of there until tree dies, and for punishing failed axes. If you can get a safe Crash Bomb in on the tree to kill it faster, more power to you, but don't rely on this.

I personally don't pursue Villager offstage. He's going to come back pretty much guaranteed, and has decent potential of keeping you from returning to the stage. I normally deal with Villager's recovery by limiting his options for return with Metal Blade/fsmash, and going for a Hard Knuckle. If he comes in high, you always have Air Shooter. Actually securing the kill on Villager is a tricky business, typically involving good reads or baiting out mistakes. Quick, unexpected fsmashes are good, too, and of course, bair is your friend for life.

Depending on how bad of a position you've gotten into, Villager's options to edgeguard MegaMan are a lot better. Bowling Ball is a death sentence for trying to recover low, and Tree can make landing on the edge risky. I normally try to bait the Ball, but it can come out pretty quickly in succession, so this doesn't always work. Coming in high is an ok decision, but try to keep yourself safe on the way down. Always Rush first if possible, keep that second jump for safety and mixups. You'd be surprised how many people are taken by surprise when you have another jump after your recovery move.

In the end, this is all based on my personal experience and from watching the few great villager players out there. I feel like I've played some quality Villagers, but your mileage may vary. I consider it a really fun matchup, for some reason it never gets old or grating like the Mario or Samus matchup. Hopefully I didn't throw out the same old "no duh" information that everyone knows.

 

[Nobie]

I think the biggest question in the vs. Villager matchup is if Mega Man can take that first stock first and/or build up enough of a lead to force Villager to approach or time him out. Granted, Mega Man has an easier time compared to a lot of other characters to challenge Villager's defensive game through his own projectiles, but it requires you not to overextend, as more reliable moves against other characters (like RAR bair) are less effective against Villager, and actually getting that first kill can be an utter pain even as you build up the advantage.

Fighting Villager in neutral basically requires a sharp understanding of how pellets compare vs. slingshot, and I myself am not entirely sure about this interaction. As far as I can see, Mega Man has the edge if both are at max range, because even if slingshot hits Mega Man, it's at its weakest, and Mega Man's weight and survivability help out tremendously. It's also important that just about everything Mega Man throws out can stop a lloid rocket projectile.

In dealing with Villager's defensive ledge game, I think Mega Man's best weapon if he is even in stocks is Leaf Shield. You can shield at the ledge as they go for the regrab and let the leaves tack bits of damage on Villager and extend your lead.

I think the matchup is probably in Mega Man's favor, around 55:45, maybe 60:40, but it never actually feels that way, because a lot of what Villager can do stuffs Mega Man's normal killing strategies.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I think it goes without saying that when Villager has something in his pocket, you're free to throw whatever projectile at him you want, and MegaMan has the distinct advantage of being made mostly of low knockback projectiles, so most of what Villager can take from you isn't even something he can punish with. Knowing that the Villager's pockets are full allows you to take advantage of fsmash again, and if he has something like Crash Bomb or Leaf Shield, if he throws it barely matters. I'm not trying to say that it's time to start spamming fsmash the second he pockets Metal Blade, but I am saying it becomes a safer option to use responsibly, like you always use it (RIGHT?).

Very much agreed.
The only 2 projectiles I don't want Villager pocketing are fsmash and Leaf Shield, however. The shield isn't that big of an issue if he hits with it, but the projectile is so large and comes out so fast that I'd rather not give that to him.

That said, Villager is one of my favorite MUs with Mega Man (stealth brag: I took some matches from Hungrybox's Villager during friendlies at APEX). We just are able to power through all of his defensive options when other characters would have to be careful around them. Metal Blade goes through his tree. Crash Bomb auto-detonates on it. We can shoot his rocket down without having to give up ground. He can't steal Metal Blade from us and I actually use it more in hopes that he will pocket it due to it taking him longer to throw it back at me. Mega Man also has great off stage options against a recovering Villager so he's one of our easier opponents to kill off stage.

His most potent tool against us is his fair/bair slingshot just because it's Mega Buster levels of annoying but travels faster. Even that can be lemoned out of the air. Just be careful with walled stages and recovering low. You'll get a bowling ball dropped on your expensive helmet.

Super advantage for Mega Man!

 

[Greward]

We got a solid advantage over Villager. He can't really deal with our projectile spam, we outcamp him and he can't really get close since he's slow as ****. Anyways he's not to be underestimated, Villager hits pretty hard. Pocket isn't that big of a deal although if he gets a Fsmash / Hard Knuckle / Tornado it might get dangerous. Spamming lemons really shuts down Villager.
I'd say between 6-4 and 7-3.

 

[Mtn64]

My thoughts on this MU:

First off I'd like to greet the mega man dudes. You're all mega awesome.
Anyways, back to the discussion.
I haven't read any of the posts here, so I'm just going to write my general thoughts on the MU.
I honestly think that mega man has an advantage in this matchup. I've sparred with a lot of good megamans as of late and the entire game comes down to the same thing: Lemons.
I can't really waste time pocketing any of your projectiles. The most I can do is pocket a side b to save later to trade with a neutral b.
Lemons shuts down most of my approaches and zoning, and while I'm dancing around those I need to keep megamans grab in the back of my head. On the off chance I get a chance to effectively go in, the only way I'd ever secure a kill is through a decent gimp, a hard read, or a pocketed uair.
On the flip side, when I'm not being zoned to death by lemons, its a much more enjoyable mu.
NAir beats a lot of your aerials out and FSmash is easy to land.
One nice sweet spot FAir or BAir gimp at <70% and you're usually dead.
As long as the Mega man is utilizing his pellets and aerials correctly, he should have no problem in this MU.

 

[Antonykun]

Just dropping in to say the the Mega Buster makes me want to cry at mid range while Metal Blade plus Crash Bomb means I have to rush him down only to be intercepted by Pellets. It's kinda funny how often Villager has to rushdown a lot of characters

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Just a little thing : when customs are on, always beware of the Big Loid Rocket as the dumb thing can stop pretty much everything (Skull Barrier should always be ran in that case, but we never know... )

 

[Locke 06]

Some thoughts from the Villager boards:

I don't think we have the right tools for the job when it comes to the mu. Most of our usual advantages get nullified. To elaborate:

Timber:

Almost completely useless. You might be able to tag him with the growth, or make use of the axe, but he can literally shoot crash bombs at the tree as fast as they can hit it and the explosions hurt you. It's basically like links bombs on crack.

Pocket:

Not as bad as timber but not great either. Your better off catching metal blades the old fashioned way. Most of his projectiles aren't really worth it individually. Dair and uair are situationaly useful but difficult to put to use. Fsmash is obviously great but I find it hard to get unless megaman Is so gracious to charge it (which I think he should almost never do in this matchup).

Lloid:

Again, almost useless. Metal blades go right through it. Megaman can easily throw out more projectiles than you can lloids. It doesn't control space well and cover you. Lloids aren't doing their job here at all.

Gimping:

Not very easy against megaman. He has sonics vertical recovery. It comes out instantly and quickly pops him up high. It's not impossible to interrupt but espically if the stage is a floating platform, it can be difficult to get where you need to be quickly enough. It's easier for megaman to gimp us with a dair than it is for us to gimp him.

Aerials:

Still good, but megaman has the tools to overcome and punish those approaches. Utilt, uair and usmash are fast anti-air moves and utilt and usmash kill early, and that's not even mentioning bair, fair, and his pellets. His shieldgrab is pretty good too. Our own fair and bair at a distance are risky since megaman is better at those ranges than us. No advantage for us here either.

This isn't to say that I think it's an unwinnable matchup. We can still get in there and do what we have to, we just don't have any help getting there, unlike our opponent.

I've been told that megaman is one of the hardest characters to play. You have to be really on point and perform a lot more inputs in a shorter time frame than most characters to get less done in the end. It sounds counter intuitive to everything I said above, but I think our only real advantage is that megaman players have to put in more work to use him to his fullest. If you are near the same skill level as the megaman player, you might come out on top for that reason alone.

I'm no expert either though, just my two cents worth.

Your post inspired me to try some things out in training mode (as best I could juggling two controllers) and I'd like to share my findings as well as expand on some of your thoughts as they are well received. None of this comes from actually playing the MU so please take it with as many grains of salt as you'd like.

Timber: It takes 6 crash bombs to destroy the tree, and like you mentioned they come fast and do damage to you if you are too close. Metal blade and Leaf shield both go through the tree no problem. Leaf shield will eat a rocket and still go through the tree. Putting the tree between yourself and Mega Man just gives him a shield to hide behind.

Pocket: 100% agreed that you should never waste pocket on a Metal blade since you can just grab it normally. If a Mega Man sees you pocket a Metal blade he will take that as an invitation to use his f-smash with out fear of it being pocketed. Actually any projectile you pocket will indicate to the Mega Man that its now safer to use an f-smash. Use this to your advantage if possible. There is enough delay on the start up that you shouldn't have too much trouble timing the pocket correctly.

I think Up+Air might be a decent projectile to grab as it lifts him straight up at a set distance and allows for some juggles. Mega Man doesn't have the best options to defend from below, dair which has too much start up, Metal blade both thrown and Z-dropped are slow and easily avoided, and Leaf shield can be poked through with turnips or other extended hit boxes. All that being said he can just Rush Coil up and away from Villager to break the juggle so it might make for a decent gamble on a 3 turnip Up+Air to seal a stock or for just the single hit/pressure.

Gimping: One more thing to remember about Rush is that he hangs around for a little bit after being summoned and anyone can jump on him during that time. This means that if you quickly spike Mega right after a Rush Coil potentially he will be saved from the gimp and now heading back towards Villager at high speeds. Turnips do stay out for a while though so if someone wants to test if you can double spike Mega Man that would be really fun to see.

I was testing Mega's Dair against Villagers balloons and the chances of him hitting both balloons is low, and hitting both while not hitting Villager is even lower due to the meteor effect. I tested his other projectiles and none of them are able to take out both balloons in one shot. There is a slight chance that two power shots placed perfectly might be able to pop them but testing that out proved to be as difficult as landing the dair. Actually I ran into a weird thing trying to pop the balloons with lemons where sometimes Villager would tank the hit like he had super armor and a balloon would not pop but the impact sound and character jostle still happened. If anyone knows more about that please do share.

Mega Man's upsmash actually doesn't really kill that early unless its fully charged. The Mega Man boards have it listed uncharged killing at 124%. Otherwise its a fantastic move with many uses against Villager. I think Mega's Fair can also be used as a defensive tool against slingshot spam as its a long lasting, large hitbox that probably clanks against the pellets much like Mario's Nair.

Branching off onto something else: I think customs will make this MU even harder for Villager as most of Villagers customs will not benefit him as much where as Mega Man's will just continue to make things easier.

Okay, so again, just needed some back-up that me feeling disadvantaged just wasn't cause I'm bad at the game. But I can try offering some input, fought a few Megamen, notably AdaptChance in an online tourney which is some dude that is apparently really great in his state or something.

Villager vs Megaman

The above two posts are great and you should read those first!
I agree that your tree is pretty darn useless. Megaman never has to approach you. He won't even come there like other characters trying to reflect it or destroy it. His metal blade goes right through so Megamen will be happy to shoot at you and destroy the tree from afar. But hey, you'll have your axe which is great (if ya ever get to use it...)

But your watering can could be great too at times. Megaman has that vertical recovery and fears the bowling ball, so many will try to recover high. Sometimes though, they'll recover high a lil far and aim for grabbing the edge. This is when you can use your watering can. You shouldnt worry about being hit too much, theyll have launched a crash bomb a lil while ago hoping to punish your edgeguard, what they believe to be a jump to turnips, and then theyll have to stay inactive to grab the ledge. This is a great time to use your watering can. It won't always happen, but isn't a really low chance either!
Many Megamen will want to recover high. (Fearing bowling balls cause of their predictable recovery again) Usually onto the stage sure, there you can try and beat the down-air start-up and turnips, but sometimes yeah, theyll wanna land on the edge! So - watering can!

I'd take the dude to stages like Battlefield trying to drop bowling balls but he quickly up-aired up-aired up-aired, I didn't know Megamen could make you navigate a lil maze of tornados like that, but yeah, being above Megaman might not be so great with platforms in the way...

Being mid-range gets you pellets. You can't really grab Megaman or attack with most moves at that range as your grab is too slow for another pellet comes out, and most of your melee attacks won't reach. Another incoming pellet will just stop your dash attack too. Down-tilt might reach and be fast enough sometimes! Sometimes. But because of pellets being fast and constant, you don't really wanna be at that range... If you try to start a gyroid to get past the pellets, Megaman can quickly punish with his slide, the down-tilt. This range... just aint good...

At far trying to launch gyroids and slingshots you'll get metal blades going through your gyroid start-up as well as crash bombs. While Megaman has room to breathe he can throw his metal blade down and pick it up, a metal blade thats been picked up is actually stronger for some reason. While he's holding it he can shoot more crash bombs, and he could also set up a leaf shield which will let him usually block your slingshots and if he's already thrown or Z-dropped his metal blade, leaf shield can really help him get a grab which allows for a few strong follow ups.

I really, honestly, have little to know clue where you want to be in this matchup... Do you wanna play around the ledge maybe? Play ledge games? Do you need a specific stage? Is this one of the few times we'd prefer FD and Omega stages?

Another neat trick to take note of, some Megaman will throw a metal blade on the ground, wait for people to go pick it up, and punish with a shoryuken (Mega upper - aka up-tilt) to kill. Its a Metal Blade Bait. Don't fall for it! Metal Blade isn't that worth it either. I coulda sworn holding the metal blade or pocketing it acted the same as pocketing Pac-Man's fruit before a patch, but maybe not... Anyway, now it really isn't worth pocketing one.

What's interesting about this matchup...is you can pocket almost all Megaman's moveset...but it isn't really helpful! You can pocket a lot of Duck Hunt and Pac-Man's (other matchups I really wanna get around to) moves, but they can't pressure you like Megaman. With Megaman, when you pocket one thing that may come in handy, it feels like another three projectiles are on the way! All I think is worth pocketing is Megaman's Up-Air, Foward-Smash of course, though good Megamen are aware you want this and will just kill other ways (back-air, down-air, up-air, up-tilt, up-smash, down-smash - he's got plenty of options)

What else is useful to pocket... Eh... I wanna say crash bomb can come in handy sometime, but the large majority of the time, you pocket metal blade you get hit with crash bomb. You try pocketing crash bomb you get a metal blade. MegaMan far away are happy to pressure you with metal blade crash bomb metal blade crash bomb, to try and force you to approach, cause as we've covered, approaching from above isnt so great and getting mid-range is miserable.

The only time you're having a good time is when Megaman is recovering to the stage. There you can bowling ball, watering can, or try and gimp with some pocketed leaf shield or slingshots and turnips. A thrown leaf shield can be good to pocket, however rare. Just covers a large sorta area. But even then, Mega can recover high onto the stage most times. You could try and punish with an up-air turnip, but usually so what? He's still back on the stage...alive.

This matchup... is even worse than Shiek... Megaman has such pressure, I don't even know where you wanna be in this matchup, not like you can approach diagonally, even if you could Metal Blade goes everywhere. I really think Megaman shuts you down in a lot of ways and you should try using another character. I might be over-dramatic... but I really think this matchup is totally 35:65.

I am clueless when in this matchup. Everywhere I go Megaman has an answer. Whatever I do Megaman has something faster. I'd love to grab him, but uh...Villager grab, heheh... I'm sorry I can't help ya here. I dont even know what stage to go to, I guess FD? Omega Stages with walls, maybe ones you cant wall jump on like Kalos League could help narrow Megaman's recovery options a bit. Lylat might be good cause of tricky ledges, but... I dunno, sorry, good luck.

Discussion will end tomorrow because I should've posted this sooner.

 

[Greward]

Villager boards seem to be wrong in a lot of thinks. Villager can and should try to gimp MM, it's not that hard to do it once u get the gist of it, specially when MM is using Rush or TH.

Hitting a hard knuckle on a villager recovering is hella difficult, if a Villager is being hit by it a lot it's his fault. It's only somewhat reliable in stages with walls like Duck Hunt or Omega Willy's (although i wouldn't take those stages in the machup, and even then he can tech the spike on the wall). Edgeguarding him with bair or metal blade is easier and we shoulda go for that.

We stop his stuff better with pellets than fair actually. It's a matchup where we should do pellet spam, mix it up with grabs / metal blades and aim for bair or up smash kills. On his side, he has to break down somehow the neutral game to abuse his insanely strong up air combos/kills and superior aerial moves.

 

[ForteX]

I agree, Villager's best option against MegaMan is to defend the ledge like it's his house, assuming he can put MegaMan off stage to begin with. The villagers that give me the most trouble are the ones who effectively utilize fair and bair to counter MegaMan's spacing. It's been said before, but Slingshot is effectively a stronger Mega Buster with less disruption, but more combo. Even with this though, these slingshot adepts fail to find a way to stop my recovery, and it isn't for lack of trying. I've seen four bowling balls go off the edge before I made it back... whatever he hoped that would accomplish.

I think that's what every MegaMan player needs to keep in mind in this matchup - you have lost all safety the second you leave the stage because of Villager's numerous options to keep you from coming back. This is also why I mentioned in my previous post that I don't go offstage to try and gimp Villager except in really specific situations; it just isn't a safe choice. Playing correctly against Villager, you'll always have the percent lead, and if you don't, you'll be able to recover it pretty quickly. I'm not an advocate for timeouts and I feel bad when it has to come to that, but I'd rather stay safe than potentially lose the game just because I was hungry to put him on the respawn platform.

You shouldnt worry about being hit too much, theyll have launched a crash bomb a lil while ago hoping to punish your edgeguard,

****, they're starting to figure me out. New plan time...

 

[D0U8leB]

Comparing Speed + Range (Range/Length; square cubes of wind hill/drug store omega)

Character | Mega Man | Villager
Walk speed * | 38 | 45
Run speed * | 27 | 31
Air speed* | 1.1, rank 11 | 0.94, rank 34
Fall speed* | 8 | 37
Fast Fall speed* | 9 | 37
Grab sp (frames) | 6 | 15
D-Grab sp (fr) | 8 | 16
Pivot Grab sp (fr) | 9 | 17
Perfect Pivot length | 3 |2.5
Grab range | 2 | 4.5
D-Grab range | 6.5 | 8.5
Landing Lag Aerial (in Frames) N-,F-,B-,U-,Dair & Overall | N0,F19,B20,U19,D24,Ov82 | N14,F23,B23,U15,D15, Ov112

*..Rank only(1-48 NO Mii Fighters)
This time I also added the landing lag of all aerials (Airdodge lag = 22 frames FYI)

Almost in every aspect we beat Villager, except for grab range and landing lag of Uair, Dair. I think the matchup is 60-40, if it's not higher than that.

 

[~Burst~]

Though its too late to change the custom layouts the ideal load out against villager would have been
Metal blade
Rush
Ice slasher
Skull barrier.

Villager with customs doesn't have to rush down any character if they're playing right unless they're down a stock and time is low in which case all characters have to do that.
Pushy loyd powers through everything we have except charge shot. The only way to punish this when a trip sapling out is to throw metal blade or ice slasher. They both go through loyd, though the reward for ice slasher is far greater than metal blade considering it actually moves him away from sapling allowing you to chase.

 

[Greward]

Don't use Ice Slasher lmao It's the worst out of the three, and you don't really want him to pocket it. I'd go with Crash Bomb in this matchup.
Probably Beat is better than Rush in this matchup, you can recover from high.

 

[~Burst~]

Have you actually tried using ice slasher in the match up?
The way the MU is played you rush down villager when hes not near sapling if you can't get him away from sapling they will just stay there and continue to throw loyds and slingshots to rack up %. Ice slasher provides a way to move villager away from sapling since it can pierce through loyd before it has a hit box. Though F smash destroys loyd, by the time you're out of cooldown Villager is able to act. Crash bomb does nothing in the match up and the same goes for danger wrap since hes either rooted near tree sapling or planking on the ledge. Not like it matters though the one set that has ice slasher doesn't have metal blade which is also potent in the MU. Without ice slash your options for playing this MU is to throw metal blade to punish pushy loyd for 5-10 damage and wait for trip sapling to vanish then rush down. Even then you will get minimum damage unless you can manage to snag Villager while he is vulnerable planting it and back throw him away.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm inclined to agree with Greward. While I haven't tried using IS in the matchup, I would rather be throwing crash bombs to get pocketed than ice slashers. The idea that you need to rush down Villager seems like an odd use of the term. If you're behind, get into mid-range (which is easier with skull barrier), and make him deal with your pressure. If he's ledge stalling, shield projectiles and then hit him. Take your time, understand the projectile pattern the Villager is using (there's not many mixups when you're on the ledge), and gain the lead.

Beat is likely better than Rush, but point blank BAir/FAirs do kill, as does his DAir. On the other side, Rush's intangibility/invincibility frames help vs bowling ball gimps and the instant vertical avoids slingshots incredibly well.

Hyper bombs might also be good vs a ledge stalling villager. But that's complete theorycraft.

I'll switch topics when I get home from work.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I personally don't think Villager has a good edgeguarding answer for rush... I'd be really hesitant to take Beat in on it.

 

[Locke 06]

I personally don't think Villager has a good edgeguarding answer for rush... I'd be really hesitant to take Beat in on it.

Beat just leaves a larger margin of error. With Rush, if you get your double jump stolen, villager has a good edge guarding game that can take a stock. Beat will allow you to circumvent the bowling ball consistently. Also, for when you want to run off bair to hit a ledge staller, you can scrooge to the other side if you miss making it safer.

 

[~Burst~]

I'm not sure you guys are aware of how custom villager is played. Jab and crash bomb are not even options when villager is in his prime position. Pushy loyd is not destroyed by jab on this specific custom. The only ways for mega man to negate the attack without giving up position are F smash and Skull barrier. One key thing to note about pushy loyd is that it has no hitbox when it is first called out but it does have a hurt box meaning you can run through the loyd but most projectiles will interact with it and vanish and leave the loyd still ready to fire. The correct way to punish pushy loyd would be to run through and grab him while hes in lag from summoning it but if trip sapling is in front of him its not an option. This is where ice slasher and metal blade come in to punish pushy loyd. If you're using ice slasher as a punish its not even able to be pocketed since hes stuck in lag on loyd start up. Even if he did pocket it that allows you to spam f smash in more situations. On top of that its easily handled with a jab or skull barrier, its not something I'd be afraid of. If it was a reason to be afraid I wouldn't use projectiles against anyone with a reflector.

 

[ForteX]

Because I don't personally see any use in Leaf Shield, no matter how many people try to convince me otherwise, I believe that if you're playing customs at all and not using Skull Barrier, you're setting yourself up for a needlessly hard time. Plant Barrier and Leaf Shield just aren't good, and I'll never understand why of all the characters with one or two worthless moves, MegaMan mains have spent so much time trying to find a use for this one worthless move in particular.

All of that said, though, Ice Slasher is just never. I'd rather not even have a sideB. It has no range, no effective followups, just... nothing. It's awful. Obligatory disclaimer: I've never used it against another human being, but I also never would want to after seeing its lackluster performance against something that isn't moving. I don't see where this aids you against Pushy Lloyd anymore than Crash Bomb would, because even if Lloyd doesn't die, you got an explosion in on it. I'm guessing Ice Slasher doesn't freeze Lloyd in place. Or, you know, the obvious: if we know shooting it doesn't do anything, let's just not shoot it.

That's just the big problem I'm having right now - Skull Barrier solves the issue of "I can't deal with this projectile and not give up ground". Suggesting using Ice Slasher seems pointless. Suggesting using anything else seems pointless. Return to sender, let him deal with it, and also let him deal with the fact that you'll drop Skull Barrier every time you see it coming.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Leaf shield is absolutely brutal against certain character's recoveries (one of the saving graces in the CF matchup, and just killer against Ness, for 2 examples). This means nothing to Villager, but is a use for the move.

Against Villager, skull barrier is clearly the way to go. In fact, Villager is one of the most obvious matchups for SB. In non-custom matches, leaf shield can override projectiles, but there are better options.

I can actually see the love for ice slasher, but I admit to not knowing how it works against villagers customs. But I wouldn't say it's laughable, considering crash bomb has little use in the matchup if Villager isn't growing trees, and danger wrap is too much of a pocket risk.

 

[Greward]

I didn't take into account pushy lloyd... If it's not stopped by pellets, then that changes the matchup a lot. Anyways Ice slasher looks like it does the same job than metal blade, at the risk of getting it stolen with pocket and a pocketed ice slasher is a superb option to break neutral game.
I can understand the fact that you want to rush him down and break neutral game, if that's the case then ice slasher is a smart option. Just that I don't think we should play that kind of game, we should have the upper hand in neutral game.

I don't really see a reason to play it as a rush down even with pushy lloyd. Fsmash shoudln't be used to stop pushy lloyd, it's too laggy, skull barrier looks better. You can jump over it although he can slingshot us then, or just run away from it. He's slower so he can't really follow us, and if he does he loses the sapling.
Timber counter makes Villager close to unapproachable but it also means that he can't move a lot from where he has planted the sapling. I'd go the same way than with customs OFF, punish lloyd with MB, some pellets here and there and run away from him. It's probably gonna become a time out but that's life. You can always jump in if you read the lloyd setup and get him with an up air, though risky.

Plant shield is actually useful if he's planking, since we can hit him in the ledge while shielding the balloons. I don't think it's worth it tho. Throwing metal blade down should be enough to do some damage on a planking Villager, if you need the kill we can try to attack him with an aerial and return on the other side of the stage with Beat. And btw if he's planking he probably is using the default gyro, so we can stick to customs off strats (aka jumpin an shootin).

Beat is superb in this matchup because we can edgeguard him and safely return to the other side of the stage, where he won't be able to punish since he's slow. That's only in small stages though aka SV and BF. We can always recover going to the other side and that's also a way to avoid the bowling ball. Or recover high and then try to land with double jump and wavebounce.

This MU looks definitely harder with customs ON. I'm not really used to customs (since Europe has yet to start using them), but I have done a bit of research on them.

 

[~Burst~]

Yeah CF is considered dead against leaf shield off stage. Its actually an amazing gimping tool and that MU in particular would very difficult without it.

F smash is there as an additional option to not give up space. If you don't want to jump and risk getting hit by a slingshot or shield and get grabbed its a decent option. You can also use it to condition them into a stalemate situation where they feel like they have nothing to lose making them trigger happy with the move. Once you're close enough and read they're doing another loyd you can use it to change position or punish it.
Trip sapling is something that doesn't seem as bad in theory but in actual play its obnoxious. Its one of those customs that makes the character an improved beast. Not only does the sapling control that space and allow him to have a camp game there but if he is ever feeling threatened/unable to get to the sapling, ledge camping is still an option for the character. The same applies from transitioning from ledge camping to sapling camping. Both of these strats increase the match time long enough for time outs to be options for both players. Its imperative that you get the first kill or the match will be a long and stressful one. This goes double if your only option is punish option is metal blade.

 

[Locke 06]

The idea behind crash bomb is that you have a long range poke that is quick and spammable. Metal Blade can be pocketed, but it can also be picked up by Villager. The thread on "how to beat a ledge stalling villager" should be informative enough. Villager cannot/should not kill you ever if he's ledge stalling, and the general consensus is that it's not a hard strategy to beat. Ninjalink has a video against EBT/CT/PL Villager in the video thread and it is a good example of how you can play around Villager's specials.

Aggro Villager can be tough to deal with, but Usmash OoS and UAirs take care of his aerial approach pretty well. A lot of Villagers like to cross up DAir, which is usually safe because of Villager's disjoint, but Usmash OoS should have enough range to punish (a perfectly spaced DAir might be safe...). Villager gets camped out pretty hard and we can just sit in shield due to Villager's poor grab. Villager can do a lot of shield damage (jabs) and can shield stab well (Dair/axe) so that's definitely something to be careful of. Angle those shields when needed.

I see 4 people viewing... I'm gonna let this go until after dinner. If nobody posts, I'll just edit this.

 

[~Burst~]

At long range villager has the advantage. Crash bomb does not penetrate pushy loyd or regular loyd. You're throwing something that will have a low and usually non existent reward. The idea of a poke is to hope to get something out it if you don't get anything use something else. On the off chance you manage to tag villager with it they just fire loyd and shield on trip sapling, you get nothing from it. Crash bomb accomplishes nothing from max range in this specific MU. Metal blade goes through the start up of loyd and gives you free damage when done correctly.
Ice slasher gives positional advantage from a range where mega man would be at ideally. Ice slasher is also more spam able than crash bomb since it travels less distance and has the same end lag you can make another one easily. Frankly mega man being max range is about as effective as luigi being max range. If you're trying to negate a projectile to close in, jabs hitboxes come out faster and have the same durability as crash bomb. If villager really wanted to force you to come it they would just fire loyd and hold a to have their jab hitbox constantly out. I'm not at all seeing what it does to benefit mega man in the MU.

 

[ForteX]

Crash Bomb doesn't do anything on Lloyd startup aside from explode and possibly hit, but since Metal Blade goes through it on startup, it interrupts the advance. When Lloyd starts moving, Crash Bomb kills it in one hit. Hence why in my first long post about villager, I suggested Metal Blade into Crash Bomb if you have the spacing.

If your biggest beef with Crash Bomb was that it doesn't kill Lloyd at startup, I'm curious now if it kills pushy Lloyd after startup.

 

[KyroChao]

Ice slasher does go through the lloyd but so does metal blade, and that goes farther. Plus, a pocketed ice slasher is pretty bad for us. Plus, if getting rid of the lloyd is your problem, your not a statue, you should have enough distance as mega man to jump over it.