Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Blade Knight]

In my experience with this matchup it gets easier the more you play it. I live with a ROB main, and while it was difficult at first because they have some cute tricks we have a lot of rude things vs ROB too.

The Postitives are the Top is a brilliant comboing tool when we can grab ahold of it, especially alongside Metal Blade. Up Tilt shield stab's them very early. Back air tripping them leads to garunteed combos at any percent since their huge bottom hangs out well within grab range. Getting ROB into the air leads to big damage as well so long as you stay below or slightly above them. Crash Bomb is very good against him, so are Ice Slasher and Bubble Wrap. I've seen success with both Skull and Plant Barriers, so we have a lot of options in this matchup. Metal Blade passes through even a fully charged laser, but you'd have to block almost instantly. Lemons instantly destroy even a fully charged Top before it hits the ground.

The Neutral is that each character kils each other around the same %, and since ROB has more reliable kill moves than us, we've got to play a little harder. Also both of our recoveries are suspect to gimps from the other. ROB's very easy to gimp with Down Air and we're very easy to spike for him regardless of what recovery we bring. Each character is quite comboable by the other, so even small hits can lead to big conversions either way.

The Negatives are definitely ROB's ability to force negative trades with us. Any time we trade with ROB he'll end with in a better situation or outputting more damage. He can also interrupt our midair followups if we're even in air height as his fair stuffs anything after we hit him with our fair. His Side B is a kill move that can punish even perfectly spaced lemons and can put us off stage, though if you short hop well you can actually bop him on his head and knock him out of it. His Side B also being a reflector puts Forward Smash on lock more or less. The Top can block Side B and Lemons at ground level.

I'll try and get some footage vs my roommate up soon if anybody would want that.

I'd call it about 50:50, though I could see this being 45:55 or 40:60 our disadvantage.

 

[Rush 2112]

Shielding the gyro can be a good option too. That kills it. Also, like the banana, when it's on the ground you can stand in front of it and pick it up I believe.

I was gonna say when he does his sideB you can hit him in the head. I tend to short hop throw all my metal blades so if he happens to do sideB it might headshot him.

I have played a few good ROBs and it's always really close or I get whupped. I haven't had extended practice against him.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but honestly how does rob get around smart pellet spam? All of his approaching moves have startup lag (for the most part), so pellets just lock him in place. His laser is annoying, but not much worse than that, and we kill the gyro.
Add to this the fact that he's huge, so all of our metal blade tricks work wonders (and MB is just very good against him overall), and our dthrow combos all work. He also doesn't have a way to get down thru uair without airdodging, which is punishable. When he's recovering, again he's a huge target, and he can't airdodge without attacking first after his upB, so once he upBs, you are guaranteed a hit on him if you are in position.

When we're recovering, he has to guess our timing to land anything other than fair or uair... Every other aerial has a commitment time, so if a mega consistently gets hit by dair, etc, it's the mega's fault, imo. As such, he's an ok edgeguarder, but I wouldn't give him the matchup advantage in this area.

His kill moves are easier to land, but again metal blade works well against him for the utilt setup, and bair is a great tool against him, so I don't think this is a significant advantage.

Idk I really struggle to see how this is ROBs advantage in the least, although my best friend played ROB in Brawl, so I may just understand the char...

 

[Blade Knight]

ROB can approach through even good use of pellets with smart use of the Top and Armor Rotor. A thrown top (not from down B, but as an item) blocks pellets and as Arm Rotor starts up it reflects just high enough to catch short hopped shots, which could then hit us, and thanks to arm rotor's generous momentum ROB gets a free in and some damage if any of our lemons hit us which is fairly likely. While that's not much by itself playing agianst ROB with our backs to the corner isn't favorable, since trades are almost always in his favor and he can force a lot of them at the edge. Of course if the reflected lemons don't hit us we potentially get a punish unless ROB moves backwards far enough.

Unfortunately, our Dthrow combos don't work for free, like I said before unless you're below or slightly above ROB they can easily mash out a Fair after being hit by Flame Sword or aerial lemons and tack a solid amount of damage onto us. This makes getting Air Shooters off of down throw particularly difficult if the ROB has good DI. Also their nair, back air, and fully charged laser can absolutely murder our recovery even with only half decent prediction on most stages, it's not all about the spike. Beat is our best choice, but Nair's enormous hitbox can make even that troublesome. I think Z-Dropped tops could be a big bother in recovering too, but they fall fairly fast so it'd take a really good rob to make use of that.

You're certainly in the right, I think people are way overblowing how hard this matchup is too, but I think you might be selling ROB just a little bit short in their tools vs Mega Man in this game. ROB's range and priority are both huge bothers in this matchup when we're trying to tack on damage or start up combos, though we do get enormous amounts of damage for free once we do get even a single good combo or string going.

 

[Locke 06]

No data to back this up, but I think ROB has one of the faster rolls in the game for his speed (similar to Pit). Combined with a quick dsmash, I remember that giving me trouble. Haven't played this MU in months though.

 

[Blade Knight]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wNTYjJCA6EM2aXD5nO8l9LHLjjim3HIiDJt8p4-Pseo/edit?pli=1#gid=0

ROB has the 14th best roll(s), just slightly better than Pit, and almost as good as Toon Link and Little Mac.

 

[Fenrir VII]

His side b is a huge commitment though. The starting frame can get canceled by a pellet, and if you bait/read it, you're guaranteed at least a metal blade hit (and should get more). Even if you get hit by a reflecting pellet, you should have time to shield before he hits you (assuming good spacing)

Dthrow turnaround bair to 2nd jump bair all strings against him and beats his fair.

And regarding the gyro.. He just has to get it as an item, which is not usually possible for him without hitting us away first.

I also just disagree with the edgeguarding tools... Laser is worst-case air dodgeable on reaction without punishment, and the other two... He has to guess where we're going to be, which frankly, he shouldn't be able to with any consistency. I also think rush is by far the best choice, as beat is more easily punishable by robs hard hitting stuff.

EDIT : as a note, I'm not trying to imply that this is a 7-3 or anything, but I do feel it's 5-5 or better for mega (leaning towards 6-4), and I have huge trouble with the concept that ROB is a negative matchup for us...

 

[zephyrnereus]

if customs are applied to this, beware of ROB's custom side B 2. unlike the original, it's an amazing reflector that comes out relatively fast, enough to use it on reaction. it can really cripple megaman's zoning, forcing megaman to think twice before using any aerial other that Fair or Bair.

 

[meleebrawler]

if customs are applied to this, beware of ROB's custom side B 2. unlike the original, it's an amazing reflector that comes out relatively fast, enough to use it on reaction. it can really cripple megaman's zoning, forcing megaman to think twice before using any aerial other that Fair or Bair.

But he can't move with it so unless he reflects something like Fsmash he's not usually going to get as much
out of as default, especially against pellets. I'd watch out more for the fire gyro (down-b 2) which is stronger
as doesn't fly as far when fired, making it easier for him to pick up (although it apparently lags more after firing?).
The slip gyro could also cause issues.

 

[SuperFightingRobotMM]

i love mega man, im going to main him evn if i hate how he plays, its mah destiny

 

[Sorichuudo]

i love mega man, im going to main him evn if i hate how he plays, its mah destiny

That's really nice but, this is the matchup discussion thread buddy ^^".

You might want to post that sorta thing in the social thread.

 

[SSGuy]

#4MrLincoln

 

[Gombi]

Is there any list of the known bad MU or megaman ? I am searching for one i just want to know who are is bad MU

 

[Locke 06]

Today's the last day for ROB. Not too much getting done, but that's gonna happen sometimes.

I think understanding the character is big with ROB. Dthrow>BAir being better than Dthrow>FAir, pressuring him in the air, and catching his landings with UAir seem to be strong things Mega Man can do. Meanwhile, ROB's stage control with the gyro, piercing laser, low landing lag NAir, dthrow>uair and uthrow kill are strong points in ROB's favor.

Oh, and ducking under his projectiles is fun. Slightly better than shielding due to no shield knockback.

Oh, and I might add stage advice. ROB's uthrow kills better on platforms and he can use his uthrow to go from the base to an upper platform. Battlefield is one where ROB's love to go along with Lylat and T&C/SV. KJ64 is probably a decent choice, as it has the highest ceiling and ROB likes to kill off the top with usmash. I have limited experience against ROB, but yeah... last day.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you can duck, can you slide under projectiles?

 

[Locke 06]

Can't slide under a straight laser, but can duck it. Can't duck under the initial throw of a top, but can duck under (and likely slide under).

Some understanding of ROB's default up-B: (a ROB main can correct me if I get anything wrong)
- The initial up-B animation locks him into it (he cannot attack)
- After the initial animation is over, ROB can freely continue, stop rising, or use an aerial attack. ROB cannot air dodge, turn around, fast fall, use his specials (with the exception of continuing up-B), or jump out of his up-B. This phase is shown with blue flames coming out of his burner.
- If ROB attacks after an up-B, ROB is must go through the initial up-B animation in order to use it again.

Jeez... ROB kills so well off the top. And dthrow>uair is 20%. And with full rage, kills easily with Uthrow+pummels at 107%. ROB's scury.

Thanks to @ zephyrnereus for stopping by. Sorry the discussion wasn't more insightful.
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We'll start to wrap up the Mushroom Kingdom. On our way to the king of Koopas...


The Koopalings!

I don't want to do research because I'm filling out my march madness bracket, but if someone wants to do research for me, I'll edit it into this post.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I don't put much stock in footage older than a few months but here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5EVKUWxXYc

We have a very good Bowser Jr. (Morton) in my crew so I have some experience with this one.
Jr.'s bread and butter is his clown kart. That move offers so much mix up potential it's crazy. It also leads to a very easy to land early kill combo where he can race towards you, hop up, eject, and hit you with an aerial hammer while very high up for an early kill. I've been killed by it as soon as 90% (and that was at death, not before).

Luckily our lemons stop that approach. Of Jr.'s tools, you must respect the weighted ball he has (fair and bair). They seem to have a larger reach than our fair and bair. The Mecha-Koopa cannot be destroyed by our projectiles but blocks them at the same time. Well it takes a good number of hits to break it. His uair can also hit you after an air dodge it fires off repeatedly so fast! His jab ender can also kill at decent percents.

His recovery is...very good. Through the use of that car, I've seen Jr. recover from right on the lower blast line so he won't be afraid to chase either.

So what do we have on him, in my opinion? Range. Like I said, our lemons stuff his kart approach pretty well. At the range we like to play at, the Mecha-Koopa is easy to see and deal with appropriately most of the time as well (pick it up). Jr.'s recovery is pretty gimpable if you can knock him back with a weak hit after he ejects (lemons).

The dude just can kill you very early if you get caught is all. This matchup is probably slightly in our favor.

 

[Kantrip]

Lemons are seriously annoying in this matchup. And all that other crap megaman can throw at bowser jr, too. I have greater success against megaman when I get him in the air and can wall him out with fairs and bairs, but that usually means I have to hit with the kart or something. If I manage to get in just once, I can usually rack up a good deal of damage, but getting in once is seriously a challenge.

Mechakoopas will take more than one hit to stop and can block some projectiles for bowser jr, so it's pretty important to know how to deal with them. I think it's usually safer to shield them/pick them up/blow them up with projectiles than to jump over them since we want to get you in the air to wall of pain you. Good bowser jr's will approach with their mechakoopa and attempt to cover your options so there isn't always a best way to deal with them.

Seriously though, this matchup just boils down to keeping bowser jr out, and since our approach is pretty linear it's not too hard to do. It's a bit of a grind because bowser jr is heavy and can live for a long time, but I feel like the matchup is in megaman's favour.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Potassium hits the nail on the head.
We know megaman loves to zone characters, and Jr. is no exception.
The metal blades may or may not help depending on how good the Jr. player is at picking them up. But the Mechakoopa does not stop the blades, so keep that in mind. If they cannot catch the blades and throw em back, by all means abuse it.
Crash bomber can nab Jr as he approaches but if he's in his kart dash and smart he'll just jump over it.
Of course, if you're close enough you can punish that, but chances are you're trying NOT to.
Leaf shield can gimp recoveries, and Jr. is no exception again. I think if you jump down and block the ledge as Jr. tries to recover low, he can be gimped with relative ease.
Keep in mind, though, that Jr. can air dodge once he's outside of his kart. Don't be so predictable that we can just air dodge then snap to ledge, and proceed to punish you afterwards.
Kart dash use will be essential to determining whether Jr. can get in on Megaman or not. If good enough then forget it. This match is in Jr.'s favour if he's too close.
Another thing is that customs favour megaman over Jr. We don't have many good custom options aside from an air cannon that can gimp you if you're too close or we time it well enough. But aside from that, Megaman gets tons of new projectiles, and danger wrap makes him even more efficient at killing if he sets up traps properly...

But between the lemons (Nair, Ftilt, and jab) stopping us in our tracks, the swarm of projectiles Megaman can chuck at us, and your Fsmash which is great for reads and serves as a close quarters projectile, I'd say Jr has a disadvantage.
Likely 60/40 megaman's favour.

 

[Rush 2112]

Fsmash destroys mechakoopa. If you see him open that hatch, start charging.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fsmash destroys mechakoopa. If you see him open that hatch, start charging.

You're underestimating the endlag on charged buster. Jr. is not just going to sit there and let
his mechakoopa wander towards you, he's going to follow it and try to punish you, and fsmash is one
of Megaman's more punishable moves.

Also don't neglect Mechakoopa's use as an item in Jr.'s hands. It can only be held for a limited time,
but it is useful as a quick projectile, z-dropping it is probably his quickest punish that lead to aerials,
and it can blow up people who hit it by mistake while it's held.

And the kart isn't as punishable as one might think, unless the spinout is used. Jr. can act out of the jump
very quickly (but can't do a midair jump), letting him punish those who shield-drop too early or too late with abandon ship
(also how the combo works) or by dropping down quickly and grabbing (though it's a bit slow so up b will probably be preferred).

 

[ChopperDave]

I haven't played many good Juniors/Koopalings so I don't have much to add to this conversation.

One thing I will say: Shield Cancelled Pseudo Z-Grab is a very good tech to learn for this MU. (For those of you who need a refresher, you can shield, jump, press A during the initial jump animation to "z-grab" an item.)

Because Mechakoopas keep walking harmlessly through you after you shield the initial hit, this tech gives you a generous frame window to snatch them off the ground and throw them back at Jr. It's a good way to deal with Mechakoopa pressure.

If you're more confident in your timing, you can do a rising nair or fair to grab a Mechakoopa and throw out a hitbox wall at the same time, but if you're too late you might end up getting caught by the explosion.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I've never had trouble with a Bowser Jr... now slight caveat that I haven't played any really good players with him, to my knowledge, but the matchup seems mostly straightforward. SH pellet play drives him nuts, because it covers MOST of his approaching options. As long as we keep up the projectile play, his Down B is even risky... He's heavy, so our dthrow > bair stuff works.

As long as you remember that he has good killmoves with limited/wonky hitboxes (Roy zone 2.0!), Mega should win this match.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I've had a lot of trouble with this matchup but then again have only played 2 good ones.

 

[divade]

I believe leaf shield hits past a mk, and I wonder about the stopping power of a cannonball against your items.

 

[Rush 2112]

I didn't suggest anything beyond the fact that Fsmash will destroy them. Obviously if Bowser Jr is close you want to be careful but if you throw out a Fsmash as soon as you see the hatch open, most of the time you will be ok. He's not likely to do it while close. From what I've seen they do it far away so they have time to pick it up. But like most people I haven't played a really good Bowser Jr.

Cannonball eats metal blades. Not sure about the others.

His Fair actually deflected one of my blades, instead of destroying it. (pointless fact)

 

[divade]

...His Fair actually deflected one of my blades, instead of destroying it. (pointless fact)

Woah what? That's weird. I pick up ~20% of my koopas, i mosty use them for pressure, or throw them off stage (btw Megamen need to be aware that while the mk falls at an angle, it has no hitbox, but once it falls vertically, it will blow on character impact). mks off stage would in theory be dangerous for Megamans Up-b.

 

[Rush 2112]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lPRrSiGnAI&feature=player_detailpage#t=72s

Hmm, never saw one dropped off the ledge before. It would deal damage but it seems unlikely to lead to anything more dangerous. Well maybe if it was followed up with an exploding clown car :o

 

[Locke 06]

So... just looking at the video, it looks like you threw the MB up and it didn't interact with Jr's FAir. Hard to tell, but slowed down that's what I think happened. I have doubts that Jr.'s FAir has any reflect/deflection properties like Pit/Pitoo's side-B.

Edit: Also, the chance that it deflects it straight up seems very odd to me.

 

[Rush 2112]

I think you're right. Hmm, I remember when it happened and I certainly didn't intend to throw it up. It didn't feel like I did.

 

[CopShowGuy]

You definitely threw the blade upwards. Jr. never touched it.

 

[Quickhero]

I don't know why you guys haven't added King Dedede's match-up ratio, since it's the easiest and not really disputed at all.

Everybody agrees the match-up is basically 8-2. Megaman's jabs alone screws King Dedede so hard that he has no approach options and Megaman just completely screws him over. It's so undisputed that you could put that right now and everyone would agree.

 

[Locke 06]

I don't know why you guys haven't added King Dedede's match-up ratio, since it's the easiest and not really disputed at all.

Everybody agrees the match-up is basically 8-2. Megaman's jabs alone screws King Dedede so hard that he has no approach options and Megaman just completely screws him over. It's so undisputed that you could put that right now and everyone would agree.

Because it hasn't been discussed formally. Also, because I'm terrible at updating the OP. It's terribly behind where we are in terms of covering the cast.

 

[demonickirby]

I Would like to know when the matchup will be discussed. I think this is very important because he is definitely one of the harder, if not the hardest matchups. Many top megamans, including Zucco, who is considered by many to be the best, claim this is the hardest matchup.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I feel like we've talked Sheik to death. Haven't we gone over her in this thread?

She is our hardest, and I don't think anybody really thinks our 2nd hardest is close. Now that said, intermediate sheiks aren't really a threat. I'm mainly talking about high level

 

[Locke 06]

In a side note, I've found leaf shield to make that MU feel decent to the point where I'm almost spamming it. Looks ridiculous, but it messes with her offensive pressure. The issue comes when she needle camps... Ugh, needles. Her kill moves on the ground are incredibly punishable on block, so it's a real test of patience on both sides in my experience.

Back to Jr. PSA: switching subjects on Sunday. Uncharged cannonball clashes with lemons and metal blades causing it to start its descent (and lose its hitbox). DAir has a grounded hitbox, so angling shields down will help you block all of it, which is important because Jr's dair is a great combo tool. Finally, Jr's edge guarding is quite good. Fsmash angled down, I think, beats ledge grabs (so really be careful when going to the ledge) and BAir kills doing 14%. In the air, Bowser Jr. does well, so keeping the game grounded and SH heavy will be Mega's goal.

Edit: According to the invincibility & armor thread, the spinout of the clown car has heavy armor on the car, which should go through pellets. Probably notable, but how important is this? Might be something to analyze in the future.

Edit harder: I'm going to try and update the OP today and start writing summaries. I've uploaded the OP to a google doc, so... hopefully I can get some stuff done. (if anyone wants to help. let me know.)

 

[demonickirby]

I feel like we've talked Sheik to death. Haven't we gone over her in this thread?

She is our hardest, and I don't think anybody really thinks our 2nd hardest is close. Now that said, intermediate sheiks aren't really a threat. I'm mainly talking about high level

My B. I didn't think it was talked about because I didnt see the original post have it listed

 

[Locke 06]

My B. I didn't think it was talked about because I didnt see the original post have it listed

OP is outdated, but it does say "blah sheik" in the schedule.

But yeah. I'm working on it seriously today.

 

[divade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lPRrSiGnAI&feature=player_detailpage#t=72s

Hmm, never saw one dropped off the ledge before. It would deal damage but it seems unlikely to lead to anything more dangerous. Well maybe if it was followed up with an exploding clown car :o

typically at higher %s it'll knock you so far back that bowjr can spam aerials for a KO (especially if MM has no mid-air), at mid percents you can usually di to the ledge well. But landing a mk hit isn't easy, so it's not a huge deal, just something to lookout for.

...
Back to Jr. PSA: switching subjects on Sunday. Uncharged cannonball clashes with lemons and metal blades causing it to start its descent (and lose its hitbox). DAir has a grounded hitbox, so angling shields down will help you block all of it, which is important because Jr's dair is a great combo tool. Finally, Jr's edge guarding is quite good. Fsmash angled down, I think, beats ledge grabs (so really be careful when going to the ledge) and BAir kills doing 14%. In the air, Bowser Jr. does well, so keeping the game grounded and SH heavy will be Mega's goal.

BowJr has a lot of edge guard mixups, from two mid-air jumps (kart) to use fairs and Nairs, cannon shots, thrown mk and mk dropping, aerial spinoouts, and the off chance of an ejected kart hitting, there's a lot of options.

 

[Locke 06]

I haven't played many good Juniors/Koopalings so I don't have much to add to this conversation.

One thing I will say: Shield Cancelled Pseudo Z-Grab is a very good tech to learn for this MU. (For those of you who need a refresher, you can shield, jump, press A during the initial jump animation to "z-grab" an item.)

Because Mechakoopas keep walking harmlessly through you after you shield the initial hit, this tech gives you a generous frame window to snatch them off the ground and throw them back at Jr. It's a good way to deal with Mechakoopa pressure.

If you're more confident in your timing, you can do a rising nair or fair to grab a Mechakoopa and throw out a hitbox wall at the same time, but if you're too late you might end up getting caught by the explosion.

Just played a good Bow Jr. in an online tourney. (ehh online, I know)

But this is so, incredibly, important. You can make it hard for Jr. to approach with the mechakoopa on the ground in neutral with metal blade (pierce) and then pick up the mechakoopa with ease. I used it really often, since my opponent spat out mechakoopas in neutral a lot, and it helped a ton. A TON.


I'm too tired to do research tonight. But we need to switch topics.

Thank you to @ Kantrip , @ Duck SMASH! , and @ divade for stopping by. Feel free to continue discussing the MU in our general MU thread, or even continue contributing to our future discussion topics.

Edit: mechakoopas apparently have 7% health, so MB + CB should do the trick along with MB/CB + lemons if you want to destroy it. Thanks Divade.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Original plan was to go to Bowser.

So we're going to go to Bowser.

Someone do research for me and post in their forum pls. I know there's a calm animal v ssguy video in the light labs video thread.

ty. goodnight.