Zelda vs Falco

[Crescent Monkey]

Hey, whats up Zelda boards. Heres the rundown on this thread: I play exclusively atm, but I've been having an extremely challenging time with people's pocket Falcos in tournaments lately. I decided that would be a good secondary to have to deal with this problem. I'm looking for some specific matchup advice against the blue bird of terror, as well as some more general tips on how to succeed with Zelda.

NOTE: I know this probably could have just been a post in the matchup notes thread, but there isn't much discussion there, and I figured a new thread, which is more focused is more likely to actually get attention/stay on topic.

 

[jtm94]

I'm not a long time Zelda main so I can't offer extensive advice, but the spacies are mostly movement and close range combo based characters. Zelda is floaty and is able to be comboed, but it is much more difficult to combo a floaty than a fastfaller so use that to your advantage.

She also has a few lasting hitboxes and her dsmash as well as ftilt and shorthop Naryu's are good gtfo moves to escape pressure. Her Dins fire can also ledge guard pretty effectively against a spacie as long as they are well placed and impede instead of aid their recovery.

Lastly, she can combo them pretty well, catch them with a ftilt and you can follow up with bair, uair, or even go usmash into nair into bair/fair. It's pretty crucial to be able to land the kicks reliably because she can KO them easily with a well timed kick at mid to high %s.

At certain %s she can also chain grab spacies using uthrow and regrabbing on the fall. Same goes for juggles off of usmash and uair to rack up damage before a fair/bair KO.

This may not all be 100% accurate, so anyone can step in and offer their advice or changes to anything I've said. Hope I helped!

 

[Rizner]

Falco is a tricky one -- he's fast and has a laser which can interrupt things if you do create space. Something to note -- if you do start a fireball and he hits you with a laser before it's placed, you can still move it down so it sticks on the ground somewhere.

Ok, now things to keep in mind. If you grab him, uthrow is often a good option. At low percents, like jtm said, you can get a few off in a row. I don't remember the exact percents, but yeah. They can DI it, but it only makes you either wait to see where they're going and react or guess which way or dash dance to see where they'll end up -- all just getting used to it after playing some.
At higher percents, an uthrow is also a good thought because you can combo into other things -- uair, bair, nair, possibly usmash if they're still kinda low and you move before doing it (might be mistaken about this, but I don't think it needs a DACUS a lot of the time -- just a dash -> usmash).
Once he's at even a higher percent or if he's DI'ing real hard every time, a bthrow can kill. If it doesn't kill, it can get him off stage which is always a good thing.

His side-b is punishable if he uses it a lot or when recovering. There are two spots you can hit him -- about halfway through it and at the end. If you pause the game as he's using it, you can see the exact place because a phantom-like falco appears once he passes that point. A nice lightning kick to that area is a godo defense. Sometimes when he's recovering if I can't get there, place a fireball at that location or something. If he has that as an option and also falling a bit more for an up-b, you can always throw out a kick which would hit there and land on the ledge to figure out your next move if needed. Regardless, it's punishable.

But all of these things require getting him either off-stage or in a grab, which is of course where they're going to try avoiding. ftilt is a good option if they hang out just outside of grab range, and other things like that.

If you're playing a falco that creates a ton of space and lasers, either getting down the perfect shield timing can help a ton or short hop neutral b with the land cancel thing will work wonders. Helps for that type of thing.

If they play in the zone outside of your tilts and too close to mess with reflecting stuff, it's tough. I'd say your best bet is to keep mobile and on the ground, and be careful to not throw out things just hoping they'll hit. You'll get punished a lot for that type of stuff, and good ones will try to bait out ftilt by waiting just outside or a missed bair or fair.

Random thing to stop approaches I've found useful against falcos is a neutral a on the ground. Just a quick jab can stop them from coming in on you sometimes. dsmash is also useful for ones pressuring you a bunch in your face.

idk much else, bair and fair can be good if you aren't in a spot to be punished, uair can be good if he's right above you in the air, jabs, dash attack and upsmash can help with ones who approach a bunch with dair, things like that.

If I think of more later I'll add it in. Hope this helps

 

[BJN39]

Best advice, (lol 4 trolls) If the falco has to use upB to recover to the ledge at any time, and you have a bit of time to move, use spaced jabs as ledge guard. If placed/timed right, it can completely block him from sweetspotting the ledge, and when hit, they fall back meaning they have to UpB AGAIN! This process can be repeated for lulz and damage. But it needs to be correctly timed, or they hit you (Or get the ledge) instead. This works for fox too. You can also use Dtilt like this, but it's WAY riskier.

It's something I discovered while watching Cosmo body a fox in Melee. And if it works in Melee, it definately works in P:M where her hitboxes are better.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

Thats actually hilarious lol

 

[BJN39]

What's best is, you can keep it going as it covers ANY recovery angle options regarding upB.

If they're over the ledge of course, then you'll need to predict a sideB. But Zelda has useful punishes to a direct sideB too, so it's not a big problem. She could even just dodge it, but getting a punish is better ofcourse.
Also, complementing this edge guard, Fox, and sorta Falco have really weak horizontal KB resistance, meaning this could come into use often.

Also, my favorite new punish for a not-fully-away DI'ed or teched dthrow (lol) on falco at 110%+ is: Dthrow > Very Quickly Turn and WD towards Falco > Utilt. It can kill once Falco is past 105%. But it has to be done as fast as possible, and the WD has to be maximum length. Very situational, but a great punish.

PS: ^those kill %s are at FD amd Smashville, so a place with a lower ceiling may net you a kill earlier. But a place with a higher ceiling makes this punish unviable because of Dthrow's (albeit tiny) KBG making him out of range.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Hey, whats up Zelda boards. Heres the rundown on this thread: I play exclusively atm, but I've been having an extremely challenging time with people's pocket Falcos in tournaments lately. I decided that would be a good secondary to have to deal with this problem. I'm looking for some specific matchup advice against the blue bird of terror, as well as some more general tips on how to succeed with Zelda.

NOTE: I know this probably could have just been a post in the matchup notes thread, but there isn't much discussion there, and I figured a new thread, which is more focused is more likely to actually get attention/stay on topic.

First of all, I love your username.

Now, as for Falco, my suggestion is that as he uses neutral b to space you away from him that you counter that with an up-b wavedash approach into a L-canceled neutral-b.
As for stages, I'm not sure if Lylat Cruise is banned, but if it's not then would be a choice pick for Zelda. Yes it will defeat SOME of the usefulness of side-b, but stage tilt will almost entirely defeat his laser and the platforms will make pillering slightly harder.
If I think of something else that would be helpful, I won't hesitate to jump back on this thread and help you out.

I main Zelda myself so I appreciate those willing to take up this off-the-beaten-path character.

 

[Kally Wally]

Lylat Cruise doesn't tilt any more. Anyway, land cancelled Nayru's is a more than adequate defense against the dark arts lasers.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Lylat Cruise doesn't tilt any more. Anyway, land cancelled Nayru's is a more than adequate defense against the dark arts lasers.

I never noticed that it doesn't tilt anymore, the more you know (thanks for telling me:-). In that case...the best non-banned stage would be...what do you think it would be, Kally?

 

[Kally Wally]

****in' hell, I don't play Zelda. All I know is that Nayru's Love has basically no landing lag if you land at the right time, which makes it as good of an anti-laser move as you could ask for.

I don't know what's a good stage and what's a bad one. All I know how is how to be a jerk with magnets, and upair -> knee.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

****in' hell, I don't play Zelda. All I know is that Nayru's Love has basically no landing lag if you land at the right time, which makes it as good of an anti-laser move as you could ask for.

I don't know what's a good stage and what's a bad one. All I know how is how to be a jerk with magnets, and upair -> knee.

Well, thanks anyway Kally Wally. Have a good rest of the day.

 

[BJN39]

Lylat Cruise doesn't tilt any more. Anyway, land cancelled Nayru's is a more than adequate defense against the dark arts lasers.

I see what you did there.

 

[otheusrex]

Crescent, you're the first person I've heard of who's picking up a pocket zelda for a specific match up, but it's true that against spacies who are inexperienced against zelda, she can do very well.

Techniques:

1) Master land-canceling nayru's love as this will be essential for dealing with his lasers and approaching him. After you've learned the timing for that, practice mixing up what actions you land-cancel into so that the falco doesn't always expect an attack and just try to shield grab. You can make any action after the land-cancel so mix up attacks, grabs, dashing away and then coming back to punish, or even another nayru on the ground. Keeping your opponent scared of your length and disjointed hitboxes is the key to pressuring with zelda because she's slow. Land-cancel nayru as a counterattack is probably your best option for a grab.

2) FWAD (farore's wind air-dodge) doesn't need to be mastered from every possible angle, but you should be able to do it on command to close larger distances to maintain pressure. Falco's lasers make FWAD a little less useful in the MU since anytime they hit during the 33 frames it takes for her to disappear, it will cancel your teleport. Use FWAD more when you've hit him and you need to close the distance for a followup. If he's stupid and not using his lasers to punish your FWAD's then it would still probably be more advantageous to through out a din's mine

3) Learn to DI well and consistently. Being floaty doesn't mean you're immune to combo's, you still have to work consistently to avoid. Nayru can be helpful to break some combo's, but not all, and it doesn't protect you from vertical combos, which falco excells at.

4) Practice the spacing/timing of bair, fair, utilt, ftilt, and to a lesser extent, uair, jab, and dtilt. Nair, nayru, and usmash are easy to grasp.

5) don't get distracted with din's fire, since you won't be able to capitalize on them until you've mastered zelda's core hard hitters (bair, fair, utilt, nair[not a heavy punisher but easier to use and good for damage]). If you can get one out safely, go for it, but don't expect much until you've learned to anticpate where they're gonna be and where they'll go if they get hit by a dins fire mine.

6)Control the situation. This is good for all characters, but especially for zelda because it's how one deals with her glaring weaknesses, which are that she lacks mobility and has awful endlag on her moves. Get good at predicting>punishing and goading the opponent into doing something you can punish. This is the most important step to understand, but I've placed it last because you must first master the above steps before you can control your opponent successfully.

Hope that helps!

 

[Kaeldiar]

Best advice, (lol 4 trolls) If the falco has to use upB to recover to the ledge at any time, and you have a bit of time to move, use spaced jabs as ledge guard. If placed/timed right, it can completely block him from sweetspotting the ledge, and when hit, they fall back meaning they have to UpB AGAIN! This process can be repeated for lulz and damage. But it needs to be correctly timed, or they hit you (Or get the ledge) instead. This works for fox too. You can also use Dtilt like this, but it's WAY riskier.

It's something I discovered while watching Cosmo body a fox in Melee. And if it works in Melee, it definately works in P:M where her hitboxes are better.

Moment of respect for Cosmo, the world's best Zelda player. That being said, PM Zelda is more like Brawl Zelda, which means her f-airs and b-airs are slower than in Melee. That was Cosmo's main move against Fox, because he could control the spacing. The jabs are also surprisingly effective edge guarders. They disrupt him very well.

Tips:
1. Use Din's Fire effectively. It can prevent him from getting back on the ledge safely, and also keep him from approaching safely. On small stages, you might not want to use it until he is off the stage, but on larger stages, it can be a feasible strategy if you find yourself on the other end of the stage. The start-up on Din's Fire isn't the fastest
2. Abuse Nayru's Love to stop his lasers AND to impede his approaches. Nayru's Love is actually a decent shield on its own, though you have to worry about the ending lag.
3. Finish with d-smash, b-throw, and f-airs and b-airs. Falco and Fox don't have the best recoveries, so d-smash's strong horizontal knock back can easily finish at med-high percentage. B-throw, recently buffed, is now a good finisher if you get a chance to grab. F-air/b-air have and always will be great moves. They have long range, and the sweetspot is awesome.
4. Look at otheusrex's post for all the technical stuff
**5. Try not to let Falco get in too close. (starred because it's very important)

 

[BJN39]

Moment of respect for Cosmo, the world's best Zelda player. That being said, PM Zelda is more like Brawl Zelda, which means her f-airs and b-airs are slower than in Melee. That was Cosmo's main move against Fox, because he could control the spacing. The jabs are also surprisingly effective edge guarders. They disrupt him very well.

Tips:
1. Use Din's Fire effectively. It can prevent him from getting back on the ledge safely, and also keep him from approaching safely. On small stages, you might not want to use it until he is off the stage, but on larger stages, it can be a feasible strategy if you find yourself on the other end of the stage. The start-up on Din's Fire isn't the fastest
2. Abuse Nayru's Love to stop his lasers AND to impede his approaches. Nayru's Love is actually a decent shield on its own, though you have to worry about the ending lag.
3. Finish with d-smash, b-throw, and f-airs and b-airs. Falco and Fox don't have the best recoveries, so d-smash's strong horizontal knock back can easily finish at med-high percentage. B-throw, recently buffed, is now a good finisher if you get a chance to grab. F-air/b-air have and always will be great moves. They have long range, and the sweetspot is awesome.
4. Look at otheusrex's post for all the technical stuff
**5. Try not to let Falco get in too close. (starred because it's very important)

The things bolded are incorrect. The frame data on her LKs is Identical to Melee, and Bthrow shouldn't be any more powerful than it was in Melee. Unless I missed something...

 

[Kaeldiar]

The things bolded are incorrect. The frame data on her LKs is Identical to Melee, and Bthrow shouldn't be any more powerful than it was in Melee. Unless I missed something...

The throw: Haven't had time to play it myself and look at the difference, nor could I find the actual data. It just seemed to me that her b-throw had bigger knockback. I could be wrong

The lightning kicks: Okay, I went to find the frame data to get the exact numbers…and found conflicting numbers GAH. All data says that the LKs hit on the same frames, but the ending lag is different for some of them. Brawl Zelda hits on the same first frame as all the other Zeldas, but I couldn't find any more data on that.

Here's Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data.319598/
::IASA for fair is 36
::Total frame count for fair is 39
::IASA for bair is 33
::Total frame count for bair is 35
Project M (v2.6) data I was using: http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data.339419/
::IASA for fair is 44
::Total frame count for fair is 50
::IASA for bair is 42
::Total frame count for bair is 44

Based on that, the Melee Zelda can throw out LKs faster than PM Zelda. While still hitting on the same frame, you are slower coming out of it.

HOWEVER, then I found this: ( http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4642.html ) This is previous Project M data from June of 2012, which would have been v2.1. According to this data, PM and Melee are identical. Now I'm not sure what the frame data is for v3.0, but that's what I found. At this point, I'm less interested in proving you wrong and more interested in finding the correct answer so that we can all benefit from this and resurrect Zelda from her bottom tier status.

 

[Strong Badam]

That 2.6 data link doesn't seem to be counting the Frame Speed Modifiers in her file. They are all identical to Melee in frame count in-game.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Thank you for clearing that up!