Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Shrokatii]

I don't think it's complexity people want so much as variety and entertainment.. Characters with Customs rocket up and down the tier lists and it is legitimately entertaining to watch characters bust out amazing moves and 50% kill comboes, and it's probably fun to do so as well.

Well, then people can use it in friendlies and such.

When I play with customs on I just play normally and see what specials my opponent is running and keep them in mind for the rest of the fight. How is that confusing? Especially since there are some customs that are always going to be used (good luck seeing a Kirby not using Upper Cutter or WFT with Jumbo Hoop). It's not that hard to adapt on the spot even if you don't know much about the custom in question.

Because I have to worry about my character as well, and how good this move is. Using certain customs against certain characters. Worrying about what custom moves my opponent is using, how good they are against my character and stuff. It's just unnecessary imo.

 

[Rizen]

I'm against customs as the norm but okay with them as side events if the TO wants them. Mainly because it already takes a long time to get all the matches done in tourneys and customs would extend each game and setup even further. Each match would take at least 5 extra minutes.
I still haven't unlocked all the custom moves. It would be much harder to get console setups with everything unlocked, which would extend tourneys even longer.

Also the metagame should be based around adapting to what characters have not introducing new moves.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

...I'm not seeing it. In a customs legal tourney you'd set up the customs beforehand, and all sets are immediately transferred to every character via a 3ds. I've watched a few custom tourneys and they all seem to go fast enough, its not a hassle to switch custom sets at all.

You should check out AmazingAmpharos's custom moves thread. He has this down to a science.

 

[FullMoon]

Also the metagame should be based around adapting to what characters have not introducing new moves.

... Characters have custom moves, so adapt to them.

Following that logic then the newcomers should only be allowed in side tournaments because they introduce new moves to the game.

The metagame will never be based around introducing new moves because once customs have been allowed for a while, there won't be any new moves to add. So at this point it will be a metagame just like you said it should be.

 

[Berserker.]

It's either you ban all customs or you let them all be legal. You can't really ban a specific custom (That's kinda biased)

Also...

I looked back at the post I made at early morning. Some wrong points in the story I have to note so pardon me here ;-; (Was half asleep during the tournament and while posting so I kinda forgot some stuff and was half-aware while watching the matches so pardon me :|)

First off, the Shulk vs Diddy MU was somewhere BEFORE the top 8 began. Idk how I ****ed this up. Guess I was too depressed from not doing well but idk. Second, there was a Greninja at top 8. Not a Diddy. I think that covers up the mistakes I made with my story but the rest remains true. I think. SO yeah, my bad.

I think I might have some mistakes until now. If so then assume me as dumb.

BUT YEAH, here it is. The stream (I think they only recorded top 8 so my match ain't here)

http://www.twitch.tv/xsplit/b/639599734

Points of interest:
- My brother played like an FG Link but he did, because he had no idea wtf was a Sheik. That was actually the first Sheik he fought in a tournament so he got the jitters. Same happened with Robin because like I said, Robin is cancer for him
- First Sheik didn't do so well. Second Sheik did better. I can see they were trying to shield grab and needle at some moments (Needles aren't that effective against Shulk on stage. I already took note of this). The f-smashes were real though. LOL.
- Lol. The SD's. The ****ing self destructs
- I also noticed, the Sheiks ALWAYS preemptively shield as if they know Shulk will approach with an aerial. The Shulk retaliated by grabbing. They seemed to not have changed their tactics even then.
- The victory was stolen. The Sheik really played well. He just ****ed up. Still, MASSIVE props to the Shulk but yeah, even he admitted it. Haha. It's all fun though. We all had fun

@DavemanCozy
@ HeroMystic

If you guys are interested. So yeah, I still think Sheik beats Shulk and MY MARIO IS READY. For now, my Shulk can't handle Diddy and Sheik, so yeah.

 

[Macchiato]

I started playing around with other characters and samus' customs are so fun. Comboing into Dense CS is so satisfying. Trip Bombs give her combo set ups.

 

[SBphiloz4]

This is pretty cool.
VAs for Smash 4.

I feel like this list is inaccurate for some characters. Michelle Ruff voiced in Awakening, so I wouldn't see how that would change (but if it's really Lauren Landa I guess I wouldn't mind).

Also didn't Sakurai voiced in Brawl but not this game?

Edit: okay, I guess I'm wrong then. Surprised Ruff didn't voice for Robin this game where she voiced for two of the possible 3 voices she had in Awakening.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

@beserker01

Most characters can't handle Diddy/sheik from what I understand, so I wouldn't feel too bad. Just train and try again next time. I know you'll win then! :D

 

[Berserker.]

@beserker01

Most characters can't handle Diddy/sheik from what I understand, so I wouldn't feel too bad. Just train and try again next time. I know you'll win then! :D

I can't john though about Diddy and Sheik. The Shulk player handled the same players that beat me fairly well with the same character

Gotta get better :3

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I started playing around with other characters and samus' customs are so fun. Comboing into Dense CS is so satisfying. Trip Bombs give her combo set ups.

here comes another main

 

[Berserker.]

I started playing around with other characters and samus' customs are so fun. Comboing into Dense CS is so satisfying. Trip Bombs give her combo set ups.

I'm going to throw eggs at you. I pre-ordered eggs for not only Philoz but every single user in this thread

If you dare switch, we'll all throw lemons, eggs, and yoshi/cancer eggs at you >:I

 

[PUK]

When you play against shiek you have to worry about all her special. Against DDD you don't. With custom you always have to worry. It's not a problem if you want to be good because it's what you supposed to do.
Custom is not a new meta, it's the meta sakurai gave us.. Why we didnt include custom in most tournements is not a wise thing.
Custom illegal means mii illégal. From that point you just ban 3 character: why do you stop here? Let's ban unlockable char, then all stage but omega.

 

[Rizen]

...I'm not seeing it. In a customs legal tourney you'd set up the customs beforehand, and all sets are immediately transferred to every character via a 3ds. I've watched a few custom tourneys and they all seem to go fast enough, its not a hassle to switch custom sets at all.

How many people were in them? I've been to Brawl tourneys that took 4 hours, not including side events like P:M. You can't assume everything will go like clockwork. Think of tourneys with 100 people and each match being extended 5 minutes.

... Characters have custom moves, so adapt to them.

Following that logic then the newcomers should only be allowed in side tournaments because they introduce new moves to the game.

The metagame will never be based around introducing new moves because once customs have been allowed for a while, there won't be any new moves to add. So at this point it will be a metagame just like you said it should be.

No, custom moves can be turned off or on, not "characters have them"; that's the issue.

"newcomers should only be allowed in side tournaments because they introduce new moves to the game."
This makes absolutely no sense.

But moves will be interchanged. A character can't have all their custom moves at once. The problem is people will see someone exploit a custom then jump on the bandwagon and not develop the potential for moves they're already using. The meta will be more around switching customs than getting good with a character.

 

[Macchiato]

I'm going to throw eggs at you. I pre-ordered eggs for not only Philoz but every single user in this thread

If you dare switch, we'll all throw lemons, eggs, and yoshi/cancer eggs at you >:I

Honestly, without customs. I don't think I'll be maining Lucina anymore. I'll probably go main

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

How many people were in them? I've been to Brawl tourneys that took 4 hours, not including side events like P:M. You can't assume everything will go like clockwork. Think of tourneys with 100 people and each match being extended 5 minutes.

KtarXIII(104-5 people IIRC) had customs and went just fine. Honestly the only reason we watched ADHD and his villager camping was because he was the only match they could show. Otherwize they said he wouldn't be shown.

 

[Berserker.]

Random note of the day: Halberd sucks. Ban plz

KtarXIII had customs and went just fine. Honestly the only reason we watched ADHD and his villager camping was because he was the only match they could show. Otherwize they said he wouldn't be shown.

ADHD is just adapting to the jank by finding out new jank. That is all.

 

[Lavani]

And three people forced him to switch to Diddy because his jank wasn't working against them.

 

[HeroMystic]

I find myself wanting to agree with @Seagull Joe the more I watch customs tournaments.

They're fun, and I'm sure later down the line, they won't look as silly in a serious match. On the other hand, I can't really with 100% confidence say to myself that this is the norm I want. Not because they're broken, but characters that get elevated by customs are really held together by powerful gimmicks.

But lemme tell you about Mario's customs.

No one cares about the Fireballs, they're balanced.
Gust Cape is not as awesome as everyone initially thought, but overall it's better than Super Cape. I don't have much of an opinion on Shocking Cape.

The FLUDDs though. Lol, these FLUDDs, though.

Scalding FLUDD legit patches up any weaknesses Mario has in footsies. It's that good. A Mario that knows how to use Scalding FLUDD is a Mario that should only be losing to Diddy.

And HP FLUDD is HILLLARIOUS!

To anyone that has this custom: B-Throw @ 70% off the stage, then edgeguard with HP FLUDD. The knockback is so powerful the target just gets blown past the blast zone.

And it gets stronger with rage.
And your opponent can't air dodge through the entire windbox (which is consistently powerful).

I've wrecked so many players on Wi-Fi with this I dunno what to say. "It takes 5 seconds tho" who cares. Buffer charge that ****.

When I think about it this way... who enjoys getting janked like this? In fact, who would enjoy setting up counterplays against this? Do I really wanna handle Kong Cyclone, Fire Spin Dash, Villager Ledge Camping, etc? I know a good amount of characters don't have the luxury of having these types of moves, but lets seriously think about this. Is it fun? That's the question that should be answered.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

That's a point to make really. In theory some custom moves are able to be countered, but is really worth countering them if its a complete slog and spectacularly unfun?

Personally I think there's some satisfaction to be gained from beating those moves, but I can't see competitive players thinking the same way.

 

[Macchiato]

New tech

http://youtu.be/zumpzuCnG64

 

[Berserker.]

People be like, "CUSTOMS MAKE THE GAME MORE INTERESTING. ALL CHARACTERS BECOME MORE VIABLE"

Then they forget that Little Mac exists

 

[Macchiato]

Windboxes >>>>>> Little Mac

He might become like the worst character.

 

[Rizen]

Guys Smash is serious business!

/jk but seriously though, competitive players want balance and consistency. Customs don't balance the game and make it less consistent. Some stages are fun like Temple but they're not good competitively; that's why we use a set stage list. At high levels I agree with what Seagull said. Customs will be very tedious without adding balance.

 

[warionumbah2]

One thing about customs is how some characters are overrated, no one bothers to explore Marios bs, Frogs bs, MM bs, etc.

Probably cuz of my main but idc about mii brawler or villager or marf or dk or bowser. We are at the everyone is viable stage just like the 3ds days smh. Then a patch is most likely coming which will either hurt or improve the meta, im not looking forward to it since I'll have to test out all of MKs kit to see if sakuwhy jacked him up.

Got 1 MK main that says he's lowtier in customs, high speed drill isn't on show because it isn't flashy and stuff its a simple long range option that zone breaks. Destroys luma, beats monkey flip and nana, makes sonic respect MK more in neutral. Perfect low tier right here.

Any EU players down for some custom matches? shout out to that peach player I had to upload those matches with my potato, helped my MK evolve by forcing me to use tornado correctly. And people say that move sucks because it has low priority smfh.

I wont enter next months local tournament since customs introduced too much jank, I'll have a month break to learn more MUs and level up my MK because his comeback ability lies in his easy advangage state combos and tornado. Not wasting my money on losing early to jank when I can spend it on something more worth while.

Offline and online training until im more confident in over half the MUs in this janky jank jank game.Knowing all janks is the best thing to do atm.

Random note of the day: Halberd sucks. Ban plz

ADHD is just adapting to the jank by finding out new jank. That is all.

Lol don h8 on my home turf.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

i have a question
why does Zelda's recovery go horizontal when you press vertical and it makes you lose to FG spammers

Windboxes >>>>>> Little Mac

He might become like the worst character.

Customs is like
"Super Windbox Bros 4 Wii U!"

 

[HeroMystic]

People be like, "CUSTOMS MAKE THE GAME MORE INTERESTING. ALL CHARACTERS BECOME MORE VIABLE"

Then they forget that Little Mac exists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOntBXIphk

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

I think customs are fun from a viewer standpoint. But I can see why people wouldn't be comfortable with them.

in the end:

:

 

[Macchiato]

I don't think zelda gets worse with customs anymore. Zelda gets better in a different way. Squall helps her bad Match ups like peach, Zamus, and Little Mac. The Dins and Phantom variants also depend on Match Up. I think zelda does get better, but differently. Kinda like wii fit. All her customs have a use for different match ups.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I don't think people think smash 4 is going to die with customs being legal. I think people just won't want to attend tourneys with them on.

Isn't...this the same thing though? If very few people go to tournaments, then it dies.

This is even a custom problem. I heard people say they will quit Smash 4 if diddy doesn't get nerfed.

Experimentation is a wonderful thing. If we do find problems, we fix it together.

You call it jank, I call it potential. I also don't like the word jank. It's the same silly reason people banned stages unfairly. (R.I.P Wuhu). I want to see characters be able to be played at their best, and customs help that. Characters that have moves only be good in free for alls can now have that move used in 1v1 for example.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

If WuHu isn't legalized eventually I will be shocked.

 

[Lavani]

 

[Gay Ginger]

I'm more afraid that Zelda becomes near-unusable with customs on. Too many characters have powerful customs that **** on her.

Not that this means customs can't be used in tournament play, but RIP Zeldawful

 

[Berserker.]

Lol don h8 on my home turf.

Diddy be like, "Naw dawg. Das da home of mah hoo hah"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOntBXIphk

That Little Mac had a lot of fun

 

[Blossom ✿]

People be like, "CUSTOMS MAKE THE GAME MORE INTERESTING. ALL CHARACTERS BECOME MORE VIABLE"

Then they forget that Little Mac exists

Little Mac is just that one character that I simply can't say is viable at all whether be it in default or custom.
His flaws are already apparent in default, but in custom they're made worse thanks to there being so many windboxes.
Mac just has no potential in the custom scene since other characters not only get stuff that make them better, they also get stuff that pretty much counters Mac (windbox shenanigans). We'll just see how it all unfolds, though.

 

[warionumbah2]

Tell me why im whooping a mii gunner and brawler ass? Like at this very moment.

 

[Berserker.]

Little Mac is just that one character that I simply can't say is viable at all

I still know of some players that can work well with Little Mac. He has those really good and really horrendous match ups so he's a decent counterpick at a default setting

With customs, he's hopeless

 

[Macchiato]

I'm more afraid that Zelda becomes near-unusable with customs on. Too many characters have powerful customs that **** on her.

Not that this means customs can't be used in tournament play, but RIP Zeldawful

No not at all. Squall Help some matches tremendously. Diddy kong probably becomes a 45-55 and Peach, ZSS, and Little Mac probably go even. Even so, she has more variety in match ups with the phantoms and dins. I think she benefits pretty decently.

Atm her Match up spread is:
3/6 even
2/6 bad
1/6 good

With customs I think her match ups will be
4/6 even
1/6 bad
1/6 good

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

If WuHu isn't legalized eventually I will be shocked.

If it does get legalized I'll be shocked...Incredibly happy, but most certainly shocked.

I mean seriously, I keep seeing people make the same arguments based on misinformed info.

Like it has walkoffs (even though they are temporary and put you in a worst position for trying), it has water meaning you can't meteor (yes people complained about that), the platform layout is janky, and let's not forget the almost impossible to perform boat glitch that won't ever happen in a serious match.

 

[SpiralGalaxies]

EDIT: Actually nevermind.

 

[Berserker.]

Atm her Match up spread is:
3/6 even
2/6 bad
1/6 good

With customs I think her match ups will be
4/6 even
1/6 bad
1/6 good

You guys (Zelda boards) haven't even discussed all the MU's yet.