Yoshi Bombing

[YoshiYoshi]

I've always felt that Yoshi Bomb is critically underrated. Maybe the top 1% of Yoshi's know what I'm talking about, but it seems like while the vast majority of wifi-level Yoshi can space F-air, I've only seen two out of hundreds ever pull of a successful down-B reversal, while I'm know to do three or four every match.

The frame data for the first hit of down-B is absolutely dominant. Frame 7 within standard grab range for 19% that kills around 100% is amazing. There are so many punish situations that opponents unwillingly walk into, and many more ways Yoshi can create those situations.

Yoshi can down-B out of shield as quickly as he can grab out of shield (7 + 7 = 14), but he can up-smash faster than that (11 < 7 + 7). You have to have a constant awareness of where the enemy will be OoS and what move you should punish with. If they land away, you might be able to grab them. If they're in your face, you'll probably want to JC up-smash. If they end up just behind you, you can down-B reversal for the optimal punish. If they end up too far behind you, give them credit, they spaced a move.

Of course, jab OoS, tilt OoS and N-air ouf of shield are both faster and safer, but if you study some frame data a bit and learn the landing/end-lag on most moves, there are so many things that can be punished with down-B. Down-B is one of Yoshi's fastest kill moves, so every opportunity to hit with it is a good one.

Moves with +14 landing lag are viable targets for Yoshi Bomb punishes. Unless the move connects the instant the opponents hit the ground, you should have a couple extra frames to get out of shield-stun and down-B. Perfect shielding makes it even more dominant, and the only drawback to the move is it's fairly short range, a little less than f-tilt.

It can also be used to extreme success off of spot dodges. Dodge a grab, punish grab with only move that can kill within that time frame, Yoshi Bomb. Run up, spot dodge, Yoshi Bomb. Read a roll, Yoshi Bomb, even if you don't hit with the frame seven, the landing frame of 27 coincides with the vulnerability frames of most rolls and spot-dodges. It's a read machine if you use it right.

Since the move is technically a disjoint, it does a great job of stopping advances as long as you time it right. If you time and b-reverse Yoshi Bomb perfectly, you are a God on the ground. You essentially have a tilt that hits for almost 20%.

To be honest, with all the mileage I get out of eggs and Yoshi Bomb, I honestly think Yoshi's best stage is FD because Battlefield screws with these moves to the point of them being kind of useless.

I'm sorry for making a whole thread about this, but considering how good the down-B has been for me, I feel like every Yoshi who plays the game besides me has agreed never to quarter-circle backwards while using the move and refuse to acknowledge how powerful it is when you put yourself in situations to abuse it. I want to see the day when Yoshi's down-B is as feared as Sheik's or ZSS's.

(I have seen Slice and the Wall do it before, so I'm not pretending I'm the only one, although it's probably a bigger part of my game-plan than anyone else's)

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think the fear for most people is doing a misinput with side-b or just being punished heavily.
Don't get me wrong, it's good and I'm sure a lot of people have used it a few times in some matches (albeit not to the extent you say like 4+ times a match) but also if you miss you're more prone to get punished heavily than using smashes.
Plus just like other kill attempts from Yoshi like say Jab Usmash, it's possible for certain weight class characters to DI after first hit and avoid the 2nd hit of it since it always knocks them forward and it only hits grounded opponents. I don't quite remember who I used to always have fall out of my Downb but it might've been the fast fallers class where it's most common.

Think another issue for most people is that they're forced onto stages with platforms since most players ban either not-so-great stages like halberd FD etc. with Dreamland SV lylat BF etc. open (platforms) to choose from and one of the many will be chosen so almost nobody gets the chance to have the empty flat FD it works best on. Maybe T&C and Duck Hunt should be chosen more often if people are DownB happy.


Though this thread does interest me on the size of the first hitbox in front of him, could be compared to other peoples grab ranges to see if he outranges them and able to hit. I believe Delta did a mini chart in one of the Lab threads on who we can downb despite platforms there and what stages it worked on for what characters etc. Don't remember where it's hidden though.

Most likely might be the Brawl size anyways.

Edit: Found it, http://smashboards.com/threads/the-yoshi-labs.370979/page-10#post-19890009

 

[Delta-cod]

Wow, that was a long time ago.

I feel like I should also add that for those tests, I initiated the Down B while right next to the opponent. It's very likely that we'll just get star hits on some characters if we hit them from further away. I'll add this statement in to the post to clear up anymore confusion.

But on the bright side, even if we only hit with stars, we should be safe from punishment anyways. And since we can connect the full move through Battlefield platforms on so many characters, it's definitely worth using consistently anyways.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't think you should edit your post, prolly better to make a new post to bump that old thread cause otherwise if an edit, of course nobody will be notified that a change happened.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, nobody's brought it up or looked at it (until this thread, I guess), so I figure that editting it in should be fine. Especially since it'll get new attention now.

I'd rather not make a new post without having more data, and I don't want to collect more data until all the patches are out, just in case.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah I understand the whole no testing and such until last patch. That's pretty much why I'm holding off any further updates for the tourney results thread MU thread etc. until Bayo and corn patch.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Though this thread does interest me on the size of the first hitbox in front of him, could be compared to other peoples grab ranges to see if he outranges them and able to hit.

sounds like a fun and easy lab experiment i might just do later

Character | Do We Outrange? | Notes
Mario | Yes |
Luigi | Yes |
Peach | Yes |
Bowser| No | Depending on the phase of his Idle animation you might connect (safe to assume you'll never connect though)
Yoshi | No |
Rosalina | Yes |
Bowser Jr.| Yes | Surprisingly
Wario | Yes |
Dokney Kong| Yes | Didn't expect that. Might be that his hurtbox just extends so far forward we clip it
Diddy Kong| Yes |Naturally dodges second hit downb out at max range
Link | No |
Zelda| Yes |Barely and she naturally dodges the second hit from max range
Sheik | Yes |
Ganon | Yes | Falls out at max range
Toon Link | No |
Samus | Lol |
Zss | No |

I'll do the rest later at some point, or someone can pick it up and do the rest. Down b outranges a surprising amount of grabs.

 

[Kitzu]

I like using Down-B out of grab release if they know to shield the release. Or not and just stay there cause they're a noob. I struggle a bit doing the first hit of Jab to Down-B which would probably work better since I think the shield will be made just small enough for Yoshi Bomb to break it.