Q&A "Worthy Opponents Indeed!" - Match-up Q&A Thread

[PK Gaming]

Knowing who Robin counters may not help us know what matchups to look out for, but it does help us figure out when Robin shines and which characters need to be afraid of him. All things to look into when building a strategy, right?

I suppose

It's not as important for us though.

 

[CharZane]

[Removed: Some bug double-posted my draft... likely on my end, mind you, not the forum's.]

 

[CharZane]

While Robin certainly has those problems against some rushdown characters and Rosaluma, she feels to have quite the solid advantage against heavier characters given the power of her aerials, their general lack of answers to projectiles, and their general inability to get past her aerials. DK feels the most out-of-luck, given that his Bair can't be much used against our Fair and he's extremely gimpable-- Ganon, Bowser, or Ike feel closer to balanced, but still with a bit of an edge in our favor, given that they can't overpower us in the air, negate our ranged game, nor simply rushdown.

I saw Mario mentioned as a 'problem' matchup, and, granted, a tough Mario is quite the challenge, but the MU itself feels pretty even... in fact, I'd argue likewise to most 'air combo game' characters, including Pikachu and Fox. Robin's aerials have the priority and just enough speed (particularly Nair/Bair) to control the air game pretty well against all but perhaps Rosalina-- even Jiggly doesn't feel too overwhelming, as there's not enough raw speed behind such attacks to feel any worse than 'even'. The key is that, while combo characters might lay into you like you were Bowser, you'll have an easier time of finishing them off when push comes to shove, and catching them in wind jabs, Arcthunder combos, Arcfire combos, utilt repeats, throw combos, etc. don't need to be as dominating a presence as their constant dthrow air-combos or such to get you 'enough' damage.

I think that there will be three kinds of characters who will potentially struggle against Robin, in any case:

• Those without a strong ground game or good disjointed aerials...
  
• Those without a threatening ranged game or extreme speed...
• Those without a counter, reflector, or a good grab game/shield breaker...

Now, I'm sure this sounds overly vague and useless at a glance, but it's worked quite well as a guideline for me, at least-- the groupings are significant, though. A strong ground game like LM can really mitigate Robin's air game just as well as flatly 'better' disjointed aerials might, but simply good aerials aren't enough on their own-- Falcon and Jiggly don't feel to be at any advantage in their usual aerial games, as they lack the disjointed hitboxes, but Marth feels to be about even. Rosalina is the only one who feels to be 'better' in the air, if only because she has good aerials that are even more disjointed. The 'ranged or speed' bit is a matter of forcing Robin to be outside of comfortable spacing-- rushing down or forcing an approach through superior ranged presence both suit that method, so Sonic and DHD won't find themselves with any terrible issues against Robin's usual zoning pressures. The bit on counters, reflectors, or good grabs will seem weird, but Robin's key strength is how useful and viable all of those attacks are... limitations imposed by counters eliminating some combinations, (and wind jabs entirely), or reflectors stopping a lot of non-Arcfire, non-Thoron projectiles, or just a good grab cutting into options like shielding or tilts or the like... limiting Robin's core strength of flexibility makes the MU inevitably easier for them. And that's the heart of it, really-- MUs where Robin has every move as a viable option are nightmares for ur foes, but those who force us into really strict strategies (i.e. 'gimp little mac') are difficult specifically because that 'focused' style forces predictability into a character that, by nature, feels to rely on reads, punishes, and a general lack of predictability to be successful. While Marth's Fairs are so typically safe or Mario's fireballs are simply spammable, it's almost a lack of consistency that defines Robin's style.

But yeah, characters who have several of those traits (LM has good ground, speed, and a counter, Rosalina has good disjointed airs, ranged game, and so on) will invariably find the matchup nearer to equal or in their favor, while those with one or none (Dedede, Falcon, Jiggly, and poor poor DK) will likely find themselves at an equally mild disadvantage...

That all said, whenever I play as Robin, or see Robin played, I'm always struck by this staggering sense of potential similar to Rosalina-- the 'why' of it isn't so obvious as Luma, in this case, but I do feel like seeing a Robin a few years out at the highest levels of play would absolutely floor us beyond belief-- I can imagine the heights Rosalina might hit, but it seems like I can't even fathom a top-level Robin's play. For days I mistook that for thinking Robin didn't cut it at higher levels (stupid, I know, but everyone goes on a salty tilt once or twice >//<); yet... with a clear head, it's feeling far more like I can't imagine it simply because there's so many branches to Robin's play. I feel like there's some massive depth of mechanics we're not even seeing the surface of scratched, at least. Robin's certainly no Metaknight of unstoppable power, but I think top-tier Robins are going to look more unusual and flat different from what we're used to that it'll draw parallels to Megaman's by playing remarkably unique... albeit with far more flexibility, like Rosalina feels to have.

 

[LabrysXII]

After playing For Glory for a while now, I noticed Greninja is pretty much my worst matchup, out of all the characters I fought so far as a newbie Robin. The uncharged water shurikens shut down my attempts at zoning (Like with Elfire and Thunder). The teleport move that they have is kinda annoying to deal with too, especially since they make certain moves (like Greninja's Dair, the stomp) safer doing that. Their mobility and attacks can be hard to react to at times, too (then again it varies from me being dumb, or online shenanigans depending on the match).

If you guys have experience with the matchup, could you point me in the right direction on what I should do? Since I want to get better with Robin, I feel I need to make sure that I understand characters that give me a lot of trouble matchup wise (I don't want to resort to counterpicking).

 

[Ultimastrike]

I had some very fun matches with DistantKingdom tonight, and also I got to learn the Shulk vs. Robin MU a little better. I'll be posting videos here tomorrow so we got some data.

 

[CharZane]

After playing For Glory for a while now, I noticed Greninja is pretty much my worst matchup, out of all the characters I fought so far as a newbie Robin. The uncharged water shurikens shut down my attempts at zoning (Like with Elfire and Thunder). The teleport move that they have is kinda annoying to deal with too, especially since they make certain moves (like Greninja's Dair, the stomp) safer doing that. Their mobility and attacks can be hard to react to at times, too (then again it varies from me being dumb, or online shenanigans depending on the match).

If you guys have experience with the matchup, could you point me in the right direction on what I should do? Since I want to get better with Robin, I feel I need to make sure that I understand characters that give me a lot of trouble matchup wise (I don't want to resort to counterpicking).

This'll sound a bit silly, but the most important thing is to keep from letting the pressure Greninja can apply make the moves for you-- not only does that lead to bad habits that swift characters can easily punish (rollspam, panic-smashes), but it makes you all the more vulnerable to their mixups (particularly substitute or other counters). Focus on keeping a feel for your 'sweetspot' zones-- it's easy to feel with, say, Marth, given his tippers, but for Robin it gets a bit weird given that there are multiple depending on what tomes/swords you have available. If you have the levin sword, semi-close air range is your 'control zone', so long as you don't get caught directly above (i.e. out of defensive Nair/Bair hitboxes) or below (specifically due to Greninja's Dair). On the ground, your control zone is just outside Arcfire range (as it'd miss from any closer) with Thunder/Arcthunder (the latter's low speed limits its 'practical' range), while Elthunder/Thoron give you much more horizontal control-- albeit the former isn't massively useful in this matchup due to water shuriken, and the latter can be tough to charge against more aggressive foes (keep in mind that it pierces enemy projectiles and can be charged in the air a bit with b-reversing). Between Arcfire range and tilt range is your dead zone, though, as is about a step behind you-- your lack of roll punishes beyond ftilt/jabs makes it a bit more tricky to react compared to someone with a Dsmash like Fox's. Just outside of your ftilt range is the real hazard, though-- most characters can charge you if you go for it at that point, but neither Robin's lack of safe approach options and lack of a shield grab make this a particularly nasty range to let your opponents into, as you can't repel them as you might someone just in front of you. Typical 'grab range' is also a bit of a dead zone, considering that same lack of shield grab range, but dtilt can really help on that front, given its relative safety out of shield (and, to a bit of a lesser extent, jab combos, or even Nosferatu if you hard read a shield).

But the key I've found to matchups against quick foes? Make it your goal to move as little as possible. Jumping immediately removes your option of jumping. Dashing immediately removes your options of quick tilts. Rolling immediately removes you as a potential threat for a second as you become unable to attack. A stationary start lets you keep a measured method where you only willfully forfeit some of your options only after an opponent loses more of theirs. Charge thunder when they're not close enough to stop you to force them to approach (which they would anyway, more often than not), Arcfire limits options by forcing them to wait (netting charge time) or jump (which removes their options, allowing you to do the same on your own terms). I'm by no means saying to never move-- but move no more than necessary. If you're not moving, it's all the easier to ftilt a dashing foe, or to make a precise retreating Nair, or to power shield an expected attack or spot-dodge an expected grab. Dashing is something you do only to hit a helpless foe (Arcfire trap, landing lag, etc.), while jumping is something you do only to chase an airborne (or, again, helpless) foe. Only act in such a way that you retain as many options as possible-- pressure works by emphasizing how one can't keep up with another's pace, but that becomes irrelevant if you ignore their speed altogether by limiting your own movements. The most common problem I find (with myself, mind you) is that of trying to follow their pace rather than abjectly ignoring it through a meticulous focus on your own space.

Excuse if that got a bit abstract, actually... reigning it back in-- Greninja, right... Anywho, his side B is remarkably unsafe on shield (power shielding in particular can easily get him smashed for it), just remember that he can't take other actions while using it. Don't try and hit him out of Dair (as the ensuing shadow sneak is more risk than it's worth and you needlessly sacrifice options versus safely shielding it), and likewise don't get greedy about hitting him out of side B. You can punish predictability with such, if need be, but nothing's worse than a missed Usmash with a face full of foot or a too-slow thunder that keeps you from shielding shadow sneak. You tend to have safer tilts, and you can dominate the skies horizontally quite well with your levin airs, but be wary of any areas within shuriken range. Don't jump the shurikens, as removing your options are the entire point of throwing them, but shielding the charged one is certainly not any option either-- as you shield any shuriken, expect a dash grab and be ready to dodge. A jump is acceptable once the charged shuriken starts being charged (so long as you're doing so before it's thrown, generally), as they've limited their options for a bit-- depending on the timing, an Arcfire, Fair, landing-Nair-into-shield, or even risky aerial Nosferatu quite outnumber Greninja's then-options, given that he'll then lack the space to make use of his mobility in full. Keep in mind how easy he is to chase offstage, as well-- Greninja has many things, but a spike or attacking recovery are not among them. As such, feel free to go for your own gimps, but keep in mind the trickery of hydro-pump pushing before going for a risky Elwind spike or the like.

Using spacing to overcome speed takes a hell of a lot of practice, patience, and... honestly, preferably a bigger screen and a c-stick, but it's certainly doable. While I definitely haven't mastered the matchup myself by any means, Greninja is one of the few newcomers I've felt comfortable against despite my usual experience (against, say, Fox or Marth) being supplanted almost entirely by theory. Honestly, the simple confidence that such semantics grant me against him might be all there is to it, but either way, I've been managing in that MU fairly well.

Starting to wonder whether rereading 'The Art of War' throughout smash practices is more likely to have me making my observations more astute or absurd in my postings here... Certainly hoping for the former, of course, but sorry if it does turn out to be more like irrelevant gibberish. ^^"

I had some very fun matches with DistantKingdom tonight, and also I got to learn the Shulk vs. Robin MU a little better. I'll be posting videos here tomorrow so we got some data.

Shulk seems like such a strange matchup-- barring Rosalina, I don't think there are many who really outrange Robin in the air so significantly, yet Shulk's not the usual rushdown archetype or projectile-heavy fighter who'd normally be the type to give us trouble. Definitely curious to see what some games against Shulk look like-- I've yet to meet much of any good ones in For Glory yet. And what good tactician doesn't love intel!? :3

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I feel like right now there are certain match ups that are just really frustrating but I feel like the more time that passes the better Robin will get because the character has a lot to him/her. I just feel like we need to learn how to get around certain things and punish/trap better and a lot of those iffy match ups will become clearer and easier.

 

[CharZane]

Alright, seriously, what the hell can I even do against Little Mac's dash attack? The matchup as a whole feels quite a bit simpler with some familiarity, but that seems to be what it boils down to now. Even the frustration of safety of his damned counter isn't so bad when it has the potential to set up for a Nosferatu or Arcthunder... but his dash attack is dementedly safe specifically because of Robin's nonexistant shield-grab. The usual 'bat him away with a tilt' method just gets me a facefull of super armor, and intercepting his dash to begin with via any level of Thunder/Arcfire only really handles half of the range he can dash-rush from. How can I just get him off the stage without a throw? His speed makes the nothin of roll-cancel foxtrotted grabs downright absurd, while dashing at all in this matchup just lands one facefirst into an ftilt (or worse)... I normally have to rely on my foe having some terrible habits (reading a counter is pretty much the only way I get a grab in to begin with, while tilting/smashing/aerialing some roll-spammer is child's play at this point), but, lacking that, I doubt I'd be able to do much. LM's dash attack feels 'perfect' against Robin-- ftilt is another problem, of course, and what'll normally be killing, but it's that dash attack's safety that he can so easily build a game around in this MU... If I could just get him off the stage, gimping is at least feasible by Elwind spiking an Up B or Nairing a Side B respectively, but Robin's lack of speed means you'd generally need some strict setup to have the time to get to him for such a follow-up, yet, lack of a shield grab means that those chances seldom arise without some severe mistakes on Mac's part.

Rosalina I can honestly write off as inexperience on my part, given how unique one's tactics must be to fight her compared to any other fighter... but LM is just feeling like I'm missing tools altogether, or at least simply misplacing them... Starting to seriously ponder abandoning the matchup entirely in favor of the hardest counter I can find to pick up as a third-- the old joke of 'LM counters For Glory' is just ringing too true. I can't get past a 50-50 at best no matter who's using LM or how, though, if it'd on FD. His edgeguarding, counter, dash attack, super armor, grabs, or even KO punch... any one of them used properly will flat end the game at any point, whereas I can only hope he does something stupid that I can capitalize on, as my only safe options only much work from far outside his range.

Any thoughts? Excuse my 'broken record' syndrome with this, but I'm just not seeing a way to beat equal-or-better LMs with any consistency. It's just maddening to be able to see his moves coming from miles away but to lack an answer, really. Am I missing something? Is this a case of being horrifically counter-staged? If so, who, if anyone, might eke out an advantage vs. LM specifically on FD?

 

[Delzethin]

Alright, seriously, what the hell can I even do against Little Mac's dash attack? The matchup as a whole feels quite a bit simpler with some familiarity, but that seems to be what it boils down to now. Even the frustration of safety of his damned counter isn't so bad when it has the potential to set up for a Nosferatu or Arcthunder... but his dash attack is dementedly safe specifically because of Robin's nonexistant shield-grab. The usual 'bat him away with a tilt' method just gets me a facefull of super armor, and intercepting his dash to begin with via any level of Thunder/Arcfire only really handles half of the range he can dash-rush from. How can I just get him off the stage without a throw? His speed makes the nothin of roll-cancel foxtrotted grabs downright absurd, while dashing at all in this matchup just lands one facefirst into an ftilt (or worse)... I normally have to rely on my foe having some terrible habits (reading a counter is pretty much the only way I get a grab in to begin with, while tilting/smashing/aerialing some roll-spammer is child's play at this point), but, lacking that, I doubt I'd be able to do much. LM's dash attack feels 'perfect' against Robin-- ftilt is another problem, of course, and what'll normally be killing, but it's that dash attack's safety that he can so easily build a game around in this MU... If I could just get him off the stage, gimping is at least feasible by Elwind spiking an Up B or Nairing a Side B respectively, but Robin's lack of speed means you'd generally need some strict setup to have the time to get to him for such a follow-up, yet, lack of a shield grab means that those chances seldom arise without some severe mistakes on Mac's part.

Rosalina I can honestly write off as inexperience on my part, given how unique one's tactics must be to fight her compared to any other fighter... but LM is just feeling like I'm missing tools altogether, or at least simply misplacing them... Starting to seriously ponder abandoning the matchup entirely in favor of the hardest counter I can find to pick up as a third-- the old joke of 'LM counters For Glory' is just ringing too true. I can't get past a 50-50 at best no matter who's using LM or how, though, if it'd on FD. His edgeguarding, counter, dash attack, super armor, grabs, or even KO punch... any one of them used properly will flat end the game at any point, whereas I can only hope he does something stupid that I can capitalize on, as my only safe options only much work from far outside his range.

Any thoughts? Excuse my 'broken record' syndrome with this, but I'm just not seeing a way to beat equal-or-better LMs with any consistency. It's just maddening to be able to see his moves coming from miles away but to lack an answer, really. Am I missing something? Is this a case of being horrifically counter-staged? If so, who, if anyone, might eke out an advantage vs. LM specifically on FD?

I think it's mostly a For Glory problem. Lack of custom specials means we can't use Fire Wall to force Mac to think twice about approaching, and FD is already his best stage (as well as a good stage for quite a few of Robin's problem matchups...). Give Robin access to his alternate specials or give him stages that force Mac to take to the air every now and then, and I bet the matchup's a lot more bearable.

Unfortunately, I can't counter that freaking dash attack worth a damn either. Maybe a well-timed pivot grab could catch him at the end of it?

 

[Ultimastrike]

I think it's mostly a For Glory problem. Lack of custom specials means we can't use Fire Wall to force Mac to think twice about approaching, and FD is already his best stage (as well as a good stage for quite a few of Robin's problem matchups...). Give Robin access to his alternate specials or give him stages that force Mac to take to the air every now and then, and I bet the matchup's a lot more bearable.

Unfortunately, I can't counter that freaking dash attack worth a damn either. Maybe a well-timed pivot grab could catch him at the end of it?

Even I've had a hard time getting Mac's Dash Attack punished. The best I can do is an FTilt and that's it. Sure, if you manage to Perfect Shield it and he does it late enough you can grab him and tell him to GTFO the stage. Outside of that, Mac's SA(Super Armor abbreviation) makes the MU problematic as is. DSmashes are the fast equivalent of Falcon/Ganonderp's DSmash, which can allow him to carry from one spot to the other. Even then, Robin needs to make use of his NAir more than Levin Sword, mainly because not only Mac's size, but Counters can really hurt you if you throw Levin out there at him and he calls it. It can even get you KO'd at 120%+. Arcfire isn't always a solution, either, since he can beat the arc it has due to his speed.

 

[Ultimastrike]

ALRIGHT. THAT'S IT. I'VE HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH DIDDY KONG.
/caps

He can combo grab you to hell and you don't get any room to do anything because the banana will slip you, then he can grab you again. Plus, off-stage he has a better Air Game than you even with the Levin Sword, mainly because of his Side B. Even his Recovery is stupid. I mean, since when do Barrels recover so much from the dead zone(which is usually where people can't recover from)? It's even greater than Robin's Elwind for pete's sake, and even Pit/Dark Pit's Power of Flight. Oh, and you know what else? He can even attack after his Side B. I mean, it's ridiculous. I can't barely touch the guy until I get the idiot in the air, and even then it's hard as heck to get him up there in the first place.

Sure, just like the battle with Nairo and NAKAT, he's problematic as ****. He can juggle you all day and you'll never see the ground. Someone needs to give me some help on this MU before I begin to throw my 3DS out the window.

 

[CharZane]

Alright, I've found some luck with the Little Mac matchup through scouring past replays to analyze what I do right when I win and wrong when I don't... To start with, your use of specials will quite literally determine the matchup outright. Arcfire and every stage of Thunder charging are particularly ideal, but Elwind hits to prevent an edgeguard, Utilt, etc. is also quite important, given that Mac can't chase you into the air to hit you. While it's normally risky, it certainly helps as a mixup. But I can't overstate the importance of Thunders and Arcfires-- timed well, they outright stop an advance, force a shield to create grab opportunities, pile on damage, KO, interrupt a rush to open the way for a reversal, and so many more... The answer to the dash attack problem? Simple: you don't need to.

Since it's a given that we can't stop the dash attack in any meaningful way, it turns out that when I focus on ignoring the attack itself and focusing on punishing the dash bit, I've had quite a bit more luck. While rolling into LM would normally be dangerous, on a read it's a superb move that reverses the guessing game by giving you a potential tilt to poke him offstage, or an Arcfire/Thunder angle, or so on. If he's hesitant with his rush, of course, then any sort of Thunder or Arcfire can punish such indecision, which encourages a rush that you can then evade entirely. I've actually landed charged smash attacks on a dash attacking LM after compelling a rush through enough intercepting specials, and that's even discounting the handful of aerials I managed through some tricky short hops... It's an incredibly difficult style to sustain, unfortunately, and I seem only to manage it for about half a stock at a time, but mastery of that 'style' seems key. While that dash attack is mechanically safe, the same can't be said of the psychology that goes into its use, that is to say. If you can trap them into using it decisively, you can use 'bad' responses as a means of response. In one game I even managed a Nosferatu out of the exchange.

As for actually KOing him, Nair's horizontal KB has proven its worth in gimping time and time again, while Uair and Bair seem the only viable moves for a straight KO unless you get the chance to catch him with an Arcthunder/Arcfire->Smash or make a particularly hard read. Vs LM, I've used every form of thunder pretty heavily, but the key is to never use two in a row if he can follow-up by dashing-- you need an intentionally non-rhythmic response to really deal with him.

---

As for Diddy, keeping one's space is all the more important, and the fight probably wouldn't be possible at all without Arcfire (the best answer to Diddy's Monkey flip, more often than not). In the air, you need some incredible sense of timing to take advantage of your disjoints, but you do still have range on your side-- so long as he's not in the relative dead zone below you. Smash attacking or dashing even once in this matchup feels horrible given how it sets him up for grabs, so I've tried to focus on quick, interrupting hits of tilts and jabs to force him into more projectile-based ranges, or to force an aerial approach that I can stave off... Still, I don't see nearly enough Diddy K's online to offer any advice on how to deal with banana combos, given that, by nature, they force shields or the like thus setting up grabs, etc. etc.... though, his vertical recovery does feel prone to gimping, given that re-using it after a hit forces him into the very real risks of SDing thereafter (given its stagebouncing problems and whatnot). Though, Robin's base speed is always a factor in limiting gimp opportunities...

---

And, also, something interesting I've found myself using quite often of-late is a 'combat walk' of sorts (originally inspired by Ike's, but working a bit differently). Basically you just jab twice, wait an instant to reset, and then do a full jab combo. It tacks on extra damage and baits out the usual 'counter the third hit' nonsense, while giving you an opening to throw out a mixup if need be by, say, charging a surprise smash, Arcfiring/Thundering, or so on. I've only gotten around to using it as-is, but I discovered its merits in some games against a particularly counter-happy LM-- I'm sure it has plenty of mixup potential once I break free of the 'just do the full combo afterwards' habit, too.

 

[NAKAT]

Your opinions on Ness vs Robin? Nairo and I believe it's 6-4 Ness.

 

[Ultimastrike]

Your opinions on Ness vs Robin? Nairo and I believe it's 6-4 Ness.

I thought that was already addressed

 

[NAKAT]

I thought that was already addressed

Was it already? I probably really just forgot there even being a discussion about it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Your opinions on Ness vs Robin? Nairo and I believe it's 6-4 Ness.

It's pretty miserable for Robin

It wouldn't have been that bad if Robin's grab game wasn't so awful.

 

[False Sense]

It's pretty miserable for Robin

It wouldn't have been that bad if Robin's grab game wasn't so awful.

I have a feeling that NAKAT is probably already aware of that match.

Anyway, I don't think the matchup against Ness is terrible, per se; it's just not in Robin's favor.

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk seems like such a strange matchup-- barring Rosalina, I don't think there are many who really outrange Robin in the air so significantly, yet Shulk's not the usual rushdown archetype or projectile-heavy fighter who'd normally be the type to give us trouble. Definitely curious to see what some games against Shulk look like-- I've yet to meet much of any good ones in For Glory yet. And what good tactician doesn't love intel!? :3

I'm a stranger to this match up also despite maining both Shulk and Robin. That reminds me, how many of us main both of them?

All I know is, arc fire is good against Shulk. If Shulk uses jump and speed, be careful because that's when the guy can jump over mount dedede (Jump) or be 4th fastest in the game (Speed). It's also stupid how he's so mobile and he also has insane range with any of the two arts.

... That's about it :T

 

[Moydow]

I already brought up Ness here. I have performed slightly better against Nesses since then though.
That match was making me a little more confident in Robin's ability to take on Ness, at least until the last game (seeing your character get three-stocked isn't a nice feeling). After watching that the impression I have now is that it's definitely in Ness' favour, although not as bad as I feared, and still winnable for Robin. I'd go with 6-4 Ness on that match, though of course one match isn't enough to decide a matchup.

 

[PK Gaming]

I have a feeling that NAKAT is probably already aware of that match.

Anyway, I don't think the matchup against Ness is terrible, per se; it's just not in Robin's favor.

I know, just having a bit of fun

The crux of what makes this matchup is Robin while he/she recovers. Robin's way too vulnerable and Ness can easily rack up the damage.

 

[Pikachewy99]

I'm a stranger to this match up also despite maining both Shulk and Robin. That reminds me, how many of us main both of them?

All I know is, arc fire is good against Shulk. If Shulk uses jump and speed, be careful because that's when the guy can jump over mount dedede (Jump) or be 4th fastest in the game (Speed). It's also stupid how he's so mobile and he also has insane range with any of the two arts.

... That's about it :T

This thread has been teaching me a lot, so I thought I'd give my input on the shulk matchup. I'll be adding more to this later when I can actually get my hands on a computer, so this will be a pretty unrefined block of words for the moment.

Ah shulk. I don't main him but occasionally I like to play as him. However, my friends main him, so I can give some insight into this matchup. At first when I first got the game he seemed tlike he was a really hard matchup, but after getting the hang of Robin and shulk, I was able to more readily take on shulk players (they're really uncommon for me on for glory, though).
The thing about him that troubles me the most is his range. It's bigger than Robin's, and if you're not careful enough the beam of his Monado will extend right into your face. His smash attacks are punishable though, so I would take advantage of that. Also, his counter is a force to be reckoned with. Honestly one of the scariest counters to me, considering that on the ground he has the option to use the regular counter and the speed counter (I'm not sure if there are differences between the knock back and percentages they deal, so I guess I'll have to look into that.), with the latter being scary to deal with if you hit them from afar and they're suddenly inches away, ready to follow up into another attack. But in all actuality, the only real problem I've had with shulk is his range. I usually have a good sense of spacing, but the extends on his smash get to me every time. I probably just need more practice. Besides that, the best thing to do is be a good tactician like Robin is! Bait counters, and punish them hard! When using smash attacks and the predict that they'll use counter, hold out for an extra split second then give them a face full of levin! Shulk isn't unbearably fast like say Mario, Greninja, or Sheik, so you don't have to deal with nasty rush downs. What's most important is to take advantage of your projectiles, because he doesn't have a reflector or any projectiles to return to you. I will point out that I didn't talk about the Monodo modes or his other attacks (because with speed THEN he becomes more of a rush down), but I don't think it'd be a good idea to type out my analysis on a phone. I'll probably come back tomorrow with something better if that's ok. Besides, I still consider myself a novice at smash, so I'm not entirely qualified to be making any assumptions yet, so please correct me if I'm wrongs about anything I say, i will make sure to fix it in a mature manner. ^^
Though as mentioned before by a lot of people, Robin's grab range is horrendous unless you account for the RCgrab, but on the 3ds it's very easy to make a technical error. I would rely more on spacing shulk because his run speed isn't quite enough to create the same pressure a Sheik player might have (at least without speed, most people I play focus more on buster or smash rather than the other three). As I said before however, this isn't accounting for the different modes. I think the best thing to do at the moment though is to find some shulk players to fight! He's a pretty odd matchup considering that we don't see him often. I definitely think that shulk won't be as hard to counter our top offenders AKA Greninja and the like, but a good shulk will be difficult to handle. It's too early to determine this anyways, especially since shulk mains need time to figure out shulk as much as we do to figure Robin.

Again, I apologize if I'm saying some misleading things, please inform me so I can fix it!

Any advice on fighting captain falcon would be great, by the way. Ness players give me a hard time, but I feel like I can't do anything to captain falcon with that speed of his. He's great in the air and the ground, and i have a hard time keeping up. Any distance I try to create is quickly closed, so I'm at a loss at what to do besides incorporate Robin's faster attacks (dtilt and nair) into my play style.

 

[Ultimastrike]

This thread has been teaching me a lot, so I thought I'd give my input on the shulk matchup. I'll be adding more to this later when I can actually get my hands on a computer, so this will be a pretty unrefined block of words for the moment.

Ah shulk. I don't main him but occasionally I like to play as him. However, my friends main him, so I can give some insight into this matchup. At first when I first got the game he seemed tlike he was a really hard matchup, but after getting the hang of Robin and shulk, I was able to more readily take on shulk players (they're really uncommon for me on for glory, though).

For Glory ain't "Feelin it". I mean, I don't see any Shulks at all as far as I know, and the very few I see tend to just Derp Slash and Derp Buster/Smash.

The thing about him that troubles me the most is his range. It's bigger than Robin's, and if you're not careful enough the beam of his Monado will extend right into your face. His smash attacks are punishable though, so I would take advantage of that. Also, his counter is a force to be reckoned with. Honestly one of the scariest counters to me, considering that on the ground he has the option to use the regular counter and the speed counter (I'm not sure if there are differences between the knock back and percentages they deal, so I guess I'll have to look into that.), with the latter being scary to deal with if you hit them from afar and they're suddenly inches away, ready to follow up into another attack.

Shulk's fast Counter doesn't have as high KB as it does with normal and long, but Counter isn't much of a problem for him in the MU. It's only a minor annoyance and baiting it out is the answer. Most Shulks I know will try and pop a counter in the air. Also, if you can read a normal counter on the ground with Arcfire/Elthunder/Arcthunder, you can spot dodge and punish with FTilt a majority of the time, depending on what spot you're in.

But in all actuality, the only real problem I've had with shulk is his range. I usually have a good sense of spacing, but the extends on his smash get to me every time.

Shulk's NAir and FAir Range is quite a problem, and puts a ton of pressure on Robin while Shulk is in Speed or Buster. If you look in the video thread for Robin you can find me fighting DistantKingdom in a Shulk match. Or, you can find other Shulk vs. Robin videos. Also, Levin Sword can actually trade blows should you be close enough.

I probably just need more practice. Besides that, the best thing to do is be a good tactician like Robin is! Bait counters, and punish them hard! When using smash attacks and the predict that they'll use counter, hold out for an extra split second then give them a face full of levin! Shulk isn't unbearably fast like say Mario, Greninja, or Sheik, so you don't have to deal with nasty rush downs. What's most important is to take advantage of your projectiles, because he doesn't have a reflector or any projectiles to return to you.

Taking advantage of your projectiles is a thing, but Shulk's Pressure in Speed can be pretty bad for him. It literally shuts down any projectile you might go throwing out since he's Sanic Speed. As I said above, FAir and NAir SH really hurt Robin until mid percents, unless it's Buster he's using; attempt a counter with NAir so as to give yourself breathing room along with jabs and tilts. Baiting Counters is what every Robin should do when it comes to fighting Lucina/Marth, Ike, LM, Greninja, and of course Shulk. Jump isn't anything to particularly worry about, unless he's trying to super gimp you. If he is, try using the Triple Jump Mechanic(charging from Arcthunder to Thoron offstage in the air) to get a jump back and use Elwind to get back up on the stage. Shield is something you need to be careful when approaching. He's pretty near Robin's Speed at that point, despite being below. Abusing Arcfire and Thunder can give you an edge should he go Shield to try and tank a stock. You could possibly even get Nosferatu. Smash is where things are difficult, yet not impossible for Robin. Robin can survive for over 150%, provided you Vector enough to stay. Even then, tipping the scales will be difficult unless you manage to sneak in Nosferatu.

Any advice on fighting captain falcon would be great, by the way. Ness players give me a hard time, but I feel like I can't do anything to captain falcon with that speed of his. He's great in the air and the ground, and i have a hard time keeping up. Any distance I try to create is quickly closed, so I'm at a loss at what to do besides incorporate Robin's faster attacks (dtilt and nair) into my play style.

Falcon isn't really a problem for Robin, given his hurtbox. Arcfire spaces him out and leaves him vulnerable to UAir should he jump. The Thunder Tome can lead to many punishes, especially with Arcthunder and Thoron Landing Lag punishes. Levin Sword outprioritizes all his air game, except for his UAir, which is as fast as Mario's nearly and can kill at 110% upwards. NAir doesn't seem to help much in this MU due to its lack of reach, which is still similar to the knee Falcon has. However, it is a VERY good Gimp should Falcon be off-stage; just be careful of his Recovery(like with Ganonderp). Aside from that BAir can provide some spacing and make Falcon fear the Levin Sword on his sides and below him. Just be aware of Reverse B Falcon Punches, as those can trick you pretty bad.

 

[Pikachewy99]

Falcon isn't really a problem for Robin, given his hurtbox. Arcfire spaces him out and leaves him vulnerable to UAir should he jump. The Thunder Tome can lead to many punishes, especially with Arcthunder and Thoron Landing Lag punishes. Levin Sword outprioritizes all his air game, except for his UAir, which is as fast as Mario's nearly and can kill at 110% upwards. NAir doesn't seem to help much in this MU due to its lack of reach, which is still similar to the knee Falcon has. However, it is a VERY good Gimp should Falcon be off-stage; just be careful of his Recovery(like with Ganonderp). Aside from that BAir can provide some spacing and make Falcon fear the Levin Sword on his sides and below him. Just be aware of Reverse B Falcon Punches, as those can trick you pretty bad.

Thanks for the info! Yeah, the only reason I don't try to gimp Falcons are the silly falconcides. Most Falcons I've met tend to throw you into a uair combo to rack up damage, and none so far have actually used the falcon punch (thank god because if those land it's a whole world of hurt).

Edit: I'd also like to note that robins b throw has been really useful for KOing! When the enemy is at 150 percent (lower or height depending), a b throw near the ledge ensures a kill! I'm pretty sure a lot of people already know this, but it definitely gives you a reliable ko option against all players/matchups.

Edit2: Wow I literally just ran into 3 Falcons in a row and won, it's not so bad anymore!

 

[Ultimastrike]

Thanks for the info! Yeah, the only reason I don't try to gimp Falcons are the silly falconcides. Most Falcons I've met tend to throw you into a uair combo to rack up damage, and none so far have actually used the falcon punch (thank god because if those land it's a whole world of hurt).

Edit: I'd also like to note that robins b throw has been really useful for KOing! When the enemy is at 150 percent (lower or height depending), a b throw near the ledge ensures a kill! I'm pretty sure a lot of people already know this, but it definitely gives you a reliable ko option against all players/matchups.

I killed a Shulk at 110% with a B Throw(While he was in Smash. That was probably what threw him off into the dead zone).

 

[CharZane]

Thanks for the info! Yeah, the only reason I don't try to gimp Falcons are the silly falconcides. Most Falcons I've met tend to throw you into a uair combo to rack up damage, and none so far have actually used the falcon punch (thank god because if those land it's a whole world of hurt).

Edit: I'd also like to note that robins b throw has been really useful for KOing! When the enemy is at 150 percent (lower or height depending), a b throw near the ledge ensures a kill! I'm pretty sure a lot of people already know this, but it definitely gives you a reliable ko option against all players/matchups.

Edit2: Wow I literally just ran into 3 Falcons in a row and won, it's not so bad anymore!

Yeah, Bthrow is a fantastic KO option, it's just getting the opportunity to land a throw near the edge where you can Bthrow towards the blast zones that's the issue, given the limited grab range and the almost necessity for it to be a dash-grab. Still, having an iffy grab tends to make it all the less expected as a mixup, and there's certainly opportunities to catch someone with an Arcfire->Grab or such, if nothing else.

Also, I think I might have finally gotten a solid handle on the Robin vs. Mac matchup, at least in the method you need take. Basically, shields and Ftilts with a particularly heavy dose of various thunders and Arcfire spacing (along with never dashing, smashing, rolling, nor even jumping if Mac's grounded). Arcfire, Arcthunder, Nosferatu, and of course simple grabs certainly make dealing with grounded counters fairly simple, while frame-trapping works with anticipated Uairs into Nairs just as well against a counter as an airdodge, if a bit riskier... I've also noticed that you can force an SD from Mac by baiting a counter when he's facing offstage-- with Uair you can do so without being hit, given its limited vertical reach, and the horizontal momentum will send him into an unrecoverable fall angle, given its lag. It really just takes some fearlessness to stand firm and bat him away with tilts rather than get greedy and try to meet him with an undue smash or jab combo, or to delay and let him get inside your range.

That said, my dual main Lucina makes such short work of the average Mac that I tend to prefer refining her play against Mac, for now, until I get more familiar with both Mac's moves and Robin's core mechanics (dual main Mac/Robin lasted literally only hours-- Lucina took that slot alongside Robin, since I'd committed to the dual main idea and had no excuse not to relearn some of my old melee Marth style, while Mac's a very solid secondary alongside Toon Link now). I can FINALLY use Fair effectively again... not as menacingly as melee by any stretch, given the years of rust, but at least I can hit ground level without terribly unsafe angles and such cropping up. Adapting to the new airdodge mechanics will certainly be a challenge, granted, but the new perks like b-reversing that shiny new shield breaker is so promising...

Speaking of, I've just gotten B-reversing down to a science on Robin, which makes air-to-ground recovery a lot safer than I'd expected it to be-- rather than the 'back to neutral' I might manage with a clever FF, it can completely reverse momentum, given that, if uncanceled, you can poke with an Elthunder or charge a free Arcthunder pretty easily in addition to simply gaining some distance.

Samus is a matchup I'm finding a bit more tricky, though. While Samus is certainly no contest in the air, reaching her, given that long roll with all those invulnerable frames, is quite the ordeal... particularly given that she constantly threatens with a superior ranged presence. I can't say it makes Robin less likely to win against Samus outright, but the usual roll-chasing tricks that work on most projectile spammers feel decidedly less effective given the safety of that roll and the KO potential of that charge shot. Anyone else have some thoughts on that MU? Most of the better Samuses I see are of the zero suit variety, so I haven't had much chance to add enough experience to what's largely theorysmash.

 

[Pikachewy99]

Samus is a matchup I'm finding a bit more tricky, though. While Samus is certainly no contest in the air, reaching her, given that long roll with all those invulnerable frames, is quite the ordeal... particularly given that she constantly threatens with a superior ranged presence. I can't say it makes Robin less likely to win against Samus outright, but the usual roll-chasing tricks that work on most projectile spammers feel decidedly less effective given the safety of that roll and the KO potential of that charge shot. Anyone else have some thoughts on that MU? Most of the better Samuses I see are of the zero suit variety, so I haven't had much chance to add enough experience to what's largely theorysmash.

I've fought a few Samus players and it was very unpleasant. The projectile spam gets real annoying really fast and due to the charging mechanics of thunder it's pretty much impossible to try to use that tome. You're pretty much forced to approach of they don't, and you usually get a faceful of fully charged cannon. Can't really say much about her though, because most people I've encountered who've played as her just projectile spam to close space or rack up damage, and the way her projectiles work give her more range than us at the beginning of a match, where she can just prevent us from charging thunder at all. I think the best thing to do would be to try to catch her in an arcfire after jumping all the nasty missiles and then follow up from there. It'll be important to apply pressure here, because it'll prevent them from getting away to go back to their projectile spam again. Watch out for her up B though. That thing a sucks you in and hurts a lot.
Zero suit on the other hand is too fast too furious. People seem to like chasing you in the air with their jet kick or spamming her side b and jumping around like a monkey (not sure if this is punishable, do the levin aerials override the impact of the jump?)Those stun moves like her down smash and her neutral b are also just horrible to be trapped by, considering that she has multiple follow up options. Since you have superior distance, use tomes as if your life depended on it- especially arcfire. Arcfire is like the best tool for faster characters because it limits their options(forced to jump/fall back/roll, so you can punish or set up more traps) and prevents them from
rushing in blindly (at least I hope it would, some for glory players don't even know how to shield or back off when they need to- or the complete opposite- they spam rolls or had shields). And a lot of people already said this beforehand, but down tilt is your very best friend.

I'm really curious about villager though, because I recently played one and got wrecked by combos I've never seen before. I think the biggest problem with villager is that I really have no idea how to fight him and that all I see on for glory are Falcon and Ness. Is anyone here actually familiar with villager? I certainly am not. His pocket really terrifies me, especially since he can absorb the attack and use it at any given time, whereas if you react fast enough to reflectors you can be saved.

 

[TrevorLoo22]

What are your guys opinion on the zelda matchup? From what I've been reading, it seems that rush down characters give Robin the most trouble, but I recently played an online match against a zelda player where it just seemed I had no answers to the matchup. I felt like I got out-zoned because she has a quicker projectile, but also couldn't approach because of how much lag Robin's arieals have. Any tips?

 

[CharZane]

I've fought a few Samus players and it was very unpleasant. The projectile spam gets real annoying really fast and due to the charging mechanics of thunder it's pretty much impossible to try to use that tome. You're pretty much forced to approach of they don't, and you usually get a faceful of fully charged cannon. Can't really say much about her though, because most people I've encountered who've played as her just projectile spam to close space or rack up damage, and the way her projectiles work give her more range than us at the beginning of a match, where she can just prevent us from charging thunder at all. I think the best thing to do would be to try to catch her in an arcfire after jumping all the nasty missiles and then follow up from there. It'll be important to apply pressure here, because it'll prevent them from getting away to go back to their projectile spam again. Watch out for her up B though. That thing a sucks you in and hurts a lot.
Zero suit on the other hand is too fast too furious. People seem to like chasing you in the air with their jet kick or spamming her side b and jumping around like a monkey (not sure if this is punishable, do the levin aerials override the impact of the jump?)Those stun moves like her down smash and her neutral b are also just horrible to be trapped by, considering that she has multiple follow up options. Since you have superior distance, use tomes as if your life depended on it- especially arcfire. Arcfire is like the best tool for faster characters because it limits their options(forced to jump/fall back/roll, so you can punish or set up more traps) and prevents them from
rushing in blindly (at least I hope it would, some for glory players don't even know how to shield or back off when they need to- or the complete opposite- they spam rolls or had shields). And a lot of people already said this beforehand, but down tilt is your very best friend.

I'm really curious about villager though, because I recently played one and got wrecked by combos I've never seen before. I think the biggest problem with villager is that I really have no idea how to fight him and that all I see on for glory are Falcon and Ness. Is anyone here actually familiar with villager? I certainly am not. His pocket really terrifies me, especially since he can absorb the attack and use it at any given time, whereas if you react fast enough to reflectors you can be saved.

Really? I've seen nothing but Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS lately-- though, I seem to play at pretty weird times... I am a bit familiar with Villager, though, and the main things that strike me are the slingshot, pocket, and grab. The Fair/Bair slingshot really hurts your aerial approach, and pocket can make it stressful to make use of thunder, but remember that Arcfire's generally safe even against absorbs/reflectors, and that Arcthunder or such can still always be fairly safe to punish lags (or to hit a V who's behind a tree/gyroid, in Thoron's case). The key is to take advantage of your better range to charge thunder and to use it to punish the lag on V's own projectiles and/or landing lags-- pocket certainly punishes spam, but Thoron's an opportunistic move at heart that isn't oft affected by that stipulation. Luckily, V's got far less in way of projectile presence than usual problems like DHD or Link, though V's pretty safe from projectiles in general which does force an approach, if not as frantic an approach as Samus might. Just don't get impatient and run headfirst into a tree or get yourself grabbed shielding a gyroid rocket or such, are the main things. Pocket will seem intimidating, but the fact that it has a limited window means you can bait it out or otherwise take advantage of its dead frames in a way you simply can't against reflectors. That, and at least pocket doesn't send things back immediately in such a way that you lose even the option of defending yourself, as Thoron on a reflector might. All in all it's no worse than reflectors, matchup-wise, it's just that V's campy styles and weird spacing angles take some getting used to. That said, I've likewise not faced too many of them online, so I'm drawing from only a dozen or so games-- certainly not enough for me to have more than a vague idea of the matchup.

What are your guys opinion on the zelda matchup? From what I've been reading, it seems that rush down characters give Robin the most trouble, but I recently played an online match against a zelda player where it just seemed I had no answers to the matchup. I felt like I got out-zoned because she has a quicker projectile, but also couldn't approach because of how much lag Robin's arieals have. Any tips?

Rushdown and projectile-zoners (like Link) tend to be Robin's main potential problems, yeah. Though, Zelda hasn't specifically caused me much in way of problems. Any time she uses Din's fire is a free hit for even Arcthunder-at-range, given that she's helpless during it, and I personally find it far less pressuring than past games' Din's fires, between its aim nerf and the buff to airdodging. The phantom and Nayru's love make it inadvisable to use thunder except when she's using Din's fire or Farore's wind or whatnot (punish lag), but her sweetspot-dependant air game makes her easy to handle in the air-- particularly since she will almost always attempt to teleport to the ground, which makes chasing for a landing-punish aerial a pretty solid option. Up close, the most important thing to keep in mind is that she'll either be aiming to grab or smash you to get some space or set up an aerial-- she can't tack on too much damage up close compared to you, and her grab game's great so she's quite apt to take advantage. As such, you need to focus on using the lowest lag moves you can to keep the ability to react as needed-- Ftilt's your best friend here, though catching her in a jab combo or Arcfire are what get you more than chip damage, in the end (again, Arcfire's safe even on reflectors, so take advantage of that). Her trickiest moves to watch out for are that Dsmash (deceptively quick and very horizontal knockback), Nayru's love, and her aerial sweetspots. Zelda is even more of a defensive character in style than Robin, so take advantage of her singular projectile by pressuring her with thunders each time she uses it to force her approach. But never underestimate the hitbox nor power behind Farore's wind-- while it leaves her open to punishes, that doesn't help if you get hit by it first.

 

[Moydow]

Arcfire's generally safe even against absorbs/reflectors

...except PSI Magnet. Ness can walk right up to an Arcfire that's already been set, and eat it. I played one last night who did this to literally every Arcfire I threw at him.
honestly every time I find some reason to be slightly optimistic about this match-up, I find even more reasons to be pessimistic.

 

[CharZane]

...except PSI Magnet. Ness can walk right up to an Arcfire that's already been set, and eat it. I played one last night who did this to literally every Arcfire I threw at him.
honestly every time I find some reason to be slightly optimistic about this match-up, I find even more reasons to be pessimistic.

Safe =/= good. Arcfiring a PSI Magnet doesn't potentially kill/punish you as a reflected Thoron or bucket of Arcthunders might, is all I mean. Arcfire on Ness tends to require baiting the mangnet out to punish, more than anything, or using it akin to thunder in punishing endlags. I'd give specific examples, but I don't see enough Nesses around to get a sense for what might work to such ends, nor do I know his frame data well enough to theorysmash up some food for thought that's necessarily credible. It has some startup and ending lags, at least, so one or the other would make it vulnerable to baits or punishes respectively. Not really something I can test in training, unfortunately (being able to set an AI to spam one move would be a fantastic training tool...)

Actually, if he's walking up to an existing Arcfire pillar, I see no reason for you to not be able to punish him for that every time-- the lag after Arfire's short enough to combo out of it to begin with, so the timing for that doesn't sound too different. I still feel like PSI Magnet shuts down Thunder far worse than it does Arcfire, either way, given how much health can be taken off an Arcthunder safely. Though, thinking of it, I've never seen the animation for a PSI Magneted Thoron (tend to be overly cautious with it against Ness), so now I'm a bit curious as to what that looks like (i.e. if it's as silly as Rosalina's absorb animation on it).

Speaking of, what have people been doing against Rosalina? As in 'what's your plan moreso than broad strokes good/bad matchup answers, I mean. Luma respawns at Levin sword rates, so taking that out seems rather pointless... ranged combat's of course rather out, and the usual methods of air play and arcfire zoning are thrown off by Rosalina's own air game and Luma respectively. I'm sure there's plenty to be done in the matchup and all, but I can't seem to find a solid 'method' as I have been for other problem MUs. Arcfiring Luma seems to help a bit, but I'm not sure if attack it at all is considered a 'waste' or what...

 

[Ultimastrike]

Guys, I need some tips on how to fight Luigi. His DThrow -> FAir shenanigans are stupid, and I see a bunch of grab-happy Luigis.

 

[PK Gaming]

What are your guys opinion on the zelda matchup? From what I've been reading, it seems that rush down characters give Robin the most trouble, but I recently played an online match against a zelda player where it just seemed I had no answers to the matchup. I felt like I got out-zoned because she has a quicker projectile, but also couldn't approach because of how much lag Robin's arieals have. Any tips?

I fought a pretty Zelda player a while back, so I might be able to help out. You got it backwards; Zelda actually has to approach Robin (Din's Fire is punished by Thoron). Robin should never approach in this matchup. If she jumps, you can beat all of her options with Nair. It gets trickier when she approaches from the ground however. If she gets through your zone, then she has the advantage since her close up game is better than ours (having a grab that isn't absolute **** goes a long way). Furthermore, Nayru's love allows her to reflect projectiles (duh) and get out of Arcfire stun quicker (why), and it punishes us if we end behind her. You'll want to force her to approach, then rack up damage with jab/grab punishes.

Oh and don't use Arcfire when you're at KO%. She can block and punish with her forward Air.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Speaking of, what have people been doing against Rosalina? As in 'what's your plan moreso than broad strokes good/bad matchup answers, I mean. Luma respawns at Levin sword rates, so taking that out seems rather pointless... ranged combat's of course rather out, and the usual methods of air play and arcfire zoning are thrown off by Rosalina's own air game and Luma respectively. I'm sure there's plenty to be done in the matchup and all, but I can't seem to find a solid 'method' as I have been for other problem MUs. Arcfiring Luma seems to help a bit, but I'm not sure if attack it at all is considered a 'waste' or what...

All losing our Levin Sword does is decrease our killing power; afaik, Bronze Sword doesn't miss out on range and speed. If Rosalina loses a Luma, she loses stage control, so Robin needs to take advantage of that as hard as possible and make it count.

In my experience, everything the Luma does besides Star Bits is beat out by Ftilt and Jab. If Rosalina sends Luma out, I typically Fire Jab it and get it out of the way for a while. Fire Jab has enough knockback to send Luma offstage from the center of Battlefield, so that's a quick and reliable option to strip Rosalina of a chunk of her stage presence for either a few seconds or 10, while at the same time finish quickly enough to react to Rosalina coming after you to punish you, or even get caught in the Fire explosion, or cancel it in the middle and bail out if Rosalina's too close.

You've got to keep moving and keep your spacing in top form. Robin's Ftilt and Fsmash will actually beat most of Rosalina's ground kit at the longest range, so master your pivot Ftilts.

I don't use Arcfire for hit confirms, but rather for setting momentum and gauging what the Rosalina will do afterward. Arcfire replenishes quickly enough, so if it hits Luma or gets Gravitated, we're back to square one. Same goes for Arcthunder. Just make sure you don't run out of both Arcfire and Thunder at the same time, or else you're in biiiig trouble.

Nosferatu will kick Luma out, so if you're feeling gutsy, you can throw a Nosferatu out on a shield-grabby Rosalina and let that rattle the Rosalina player's mind and psyche.

Basically, just be mindful of your spacing, respect Luma, but recognize that Luma is not invincible, and just don't be afraid of the stage presence the RosaLuma duo have. It's an uphill battle, but Robin has a few things that can shine through.

 

[CharZane]

Guys, I need some tips on how to fight Luigi. His DThrow -> FAir shenanigans are stupid, and I see a bunch of grab-happy Luigis.

I'm definitely sensing a pattern as I say this, but... Ftilt is key. Arcfire will force an aerial approach (thus no grab), Thunder will force an approach to begin with as you charge it, and tilts can bat back Luigi quite well given his slower movespeed. In the air, his signature well-rounded aerials are very much wasted against you given the various disjointed moves at your disposal, which means he'll generally need to combo from the ground-- foreknowledge you can capitalize on. Don't get tricked into any smashes, tricked into approaching, et cetera... if you focus on low-lag moves, you can rid yourself of the openings that allow for those short-range grabs to begin with. Though, thinking of it, I'm now pondering what might help against tethers.

---

Am aware of losing Levin sword being largely irrelevant-- was exactly why I used it as a comparison to Luma-- the opening after killing it feels downright impossible to take real advantage of, between Rosalina's ability to then evade whilst still not fearing for any projectiles. 'Keep moving' definitely screams against my every impulse when it comes to Robin, so that definitely sounds like the root of my problem, if that's how you've been going about the MU-- though, 'add more ftilts' seems like the solution to damn near everything! XD

 

[Mr. Johan]

Well, Ftilt is just really good imo. It's fast, it ends fast, it has great range, you can use it out of pivot, the only thing it really lacks is KO power.

If I'm not turnaround Arcfireing, I'm turnaround Ftilting. Robin has the means to swat away someone trying to approach from the ground at any moment.

 

[Ultimastrike]

Tbh, I'm getting very tired of Diddy Kong. Diddy is very hard to get, considering his projectile is spammable provided they air catch and then mindgame you while approaching. Monkey Flip vs. Arcfire = Monkey Flip Wins because of his kick. He won't take barely any damage at all, and that's very bad. What's more is he loves to combo grab with that banana(which I think is the stupidest thing in the world, considering he can already rack up so much damage like Olimar). Arcthunder I'm not too swell with considering he'll use that Banana to cancel it. I really need someone to tell me how to fight this MU, considering Diddy is being a **** to Robin right now.

 

[Pikachewy99]

Not sure if anyone has seen this yet, but it definitely makes the matchup against ZSS even scarier. It's a difficult technique to pull off (I've tested it my self), but once mastered will obliterate any robins that fall into it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

It's been known for a while, but the infinite requires Robin to be at point blank range for a fully charged Paralyzer Shot, which isn't likely to occur all that often.

And with it being an unintended programming bug (ZSS is supposed to jump from the footstool, but she doesn't here), it's doubtful this will find its way to the Wii U version.

 

[Meta651]

Apart of what Sonic Storm said about the RosaLuma MU, there are more tips or advice for that MU? I'm struggling a lot when I'm against RosaLuma and I have problems punishing her when I shield some of her attacks...

Also, what are your ways to set up your KO moves?, what works a lot is when I'm near is throw Arcfire and the a Levin Fair/Bair/Uair.

 

[Moonlighter]

How does Arcfire to FSmash work? It might be the trouble I'm having with the input, but it feels like FSmash comes out too late to capitalize on the Arcfire trap. Is it a positioning thing?