World 8 - The Mario Match-Up Index [8-2: Luigi, Doc]

[HeroMystic]

Mario Match-Up Index

This will be the new match-up thread for the Mario boards. Similar to how this was done in the Brawl Mario forum eons ago, this will be the thread where match-up ratios are posted, and other threads will be created on a weekly basis to detail the MU in question. Note: This may be shortened if everyone feels they have thoroughly discussed the MU in detail.

The way how this will work is the users here will vote for which MU they would like to cover. Once the weekly thread for that MU is made, the votes will reset and I will wait a week before tallying the votes and then creating a thread for the most popularly voted MU. Otherwise, use this thread for general match-up discussion.

Update: Due to weak discussion in the MU threads, that format will be abandoned in favor of free discussion. Any servicable posts about a character will be added to the OP for future reference.


Match-Up Discussions

On the MU threads themselves, it is recommended to speak of the following points.

Pros: Mario's strengths in this MU and any weaknesses he can capitalize on.

Cons: Mario's weaknesses or Opponent's Strengths in this MU.

Special Notes: Anything odd or MU-specific that should be noted.

Overall Thoughts: Your personal opinion on the MU in detail, as far as the intensity/difficulty of the MU and how it should be played.

Stages: Bans and Counterpicks that should be used during the MU.

Ratios for each MU will go by general consensus.

Please keep any MU discussion clean and welcome for all participants, but don't be afraid to engage in debate.


Current Match-Up Threads

vs : World 8 - 1 [1/16/2015]
vs : World 8 - 2 [1/23/2015]

 

[AntSSB]

Stay at the ledge with fludd charged, throw him off the stage then spray fludd and use the cape. Easy kills with mario right there!

 

[RnG 413]

I've been meaning to use more FLUDD in my mario game ill give it a shot.

 

[BoTastic!]

Easier said than done. Fludd isn't as good as people say it is. I still think it's just as situational as before... just with a bit more distance. But it doesn't help much because the new mechanics make recovery free as ever. I almost never gimp good players with fludd. Or even the cape.

With that being said, keep your fludd charged. when Mac's offstage, (way offstage) jump offstage and fludd him, puts him in awkward positions.

I'm still learning this match up, but I beat a Mac quite solidly for first place a couple of weeks ago. I'll post the vid soon if I can find it on the twitch channel.

Don't approach Mac, but when you have the pressure, it's good to be very aggressive. Fireball him. Mario's fireball is awful now but it still forces him to approach. You have to wait till mac attacks or really be good at reading his rolls. Mac punishes hard and it's hard to punish him so you gotta be on your toes and keep moving and blocking.Retreating Sh dairs are good when he's in your face depending on the situation

In the air he's weak but watch out for his counter. You gotta bait it and then continue racking damage. Counter happy macs will get rekt by a patient Mario Player.

Up B can break out of Mac's multi jab sometimes. if you're consistent with this it'll force mac not to do it anymore and just do basic 1-2-3 jab when he hits you. Better than taking 20% damage every time. Also I believe you can vector up when caught in it and mash B to get out of it.

Bair offstage is a good option. Onstage too for spacing purposes I believe it's still Mario's longest ranged attack.

And of course, be very aggressive offstage. He can't do much vs you offstage.

When he has a KO meter. It's best not to be scared to play the match normally. When Mac gets hit enough, the meter goes away. Running away will only make it worse imo.

 

[Incendiary]

Gimping offstage is your best bet. I've played macs where I was down 2 stocks and came back because his recovery is just that bad. Get good with using fludd and cape. The edge of the stage is a no zone for mac. I notice that their play (even with good playes) gets sloppy once they're there.. Be careful when caping. Good mac players will intentionally get in a position to get caped but counter instead. I like to fludd them first.

Good macs will dash dance and it takes a lot of patience and fireballs. Space those short hop bairs and dairs. Also bait that counter, dthrow u tilt until he counters. Regrab and repeat. This also works for marth, lucina etc. Also for characters that can nair after the first utilt like Pikachu, just shield and Regrab and combo away.

 

[RnG 413]

thanks for the tips! i feel like some matchups i out play myself and get frustrated when my options feel limited.

 

[Iko-Seiko]

If this is for local tournament play, my bets tips are these:

1. Battlefield. Go to battlefield. Your customs should be Normal fireball, Gust cape, and High Pressure Fludd(though some argue normal fludd, which is valid too.). With the way your fireballs fall, you can stay on the platforms the entire match and camp down at him to force mac to approach. Be wary that mac /can/ hit you through the bottom two platforms, though it'll be predictable with a usmash or up-b. Force mac to approach you on the platform, and punish his subpar options. Do not worry about damaging him outside fireballs, just throw him off stage and get him wet. This is dumb, and campy, and lame, but Maxc is dumb too, so don't feel bad.

2. Shield grab the ftilt! It can be done. Input the grab as soon as the second punch of his ftilt connects and you should buffer a shieldgrab, allowing you to catch him once the attack ends unless he spaces very far away from you.

3. Force him to approach. Mac ALWAYS Has to approach Mario. You have fireballs, he has nothing. He has to approach you in one of a few limited ways, usually side-b, dash attack, or running up, shielding, and ftilting. Get a feel for the mac's prefference and shut it down.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Litte Mac main here, also a Mario main and a Marth main.

Little Mac never has to approach in this MU, smart Macs can stand still and jab to the air the howl battle, as soon as the fireballs connect with his punches they'll be nullified and disappear in front of him. With good timing and if he's in a set distance and dash exactly when the fireball bounce he can also go under them and catch Mario off guard.

Spoiler

He can also match out of utilt combos with his nair and if he presses jab soon enough can get Mario in a jab combo.

FLUUD and cape eat he's recovery completely if used right though, especially caping he's side b is just a stock. That's why good Macs use to recover low, but FLUUD push him away and make side b-ing his only one good option.

Also a Fair spike is also a kill in almost any percentage do to his bad recovery.

 

[IronMario31]

If this is for local tournament play, my bets tips are these:

1. Battlefield. Go to battlefield. Your customs should be Normal fireball, Gust cape, and High Pressure Fludd(though some argue normal fludd, which is valid too.). With the way your fireballs fall, you can stay on the platforms the entire match and camp down at him to force mac to approach. Be wary that mac /can/ hit you through the bottom two platforms, though it'll be predictable with a usmash or up-b. Force mac to approach you on the platform, and punish his subpar options. Do not worry about damaging him outside fireballs, just throw him off stage and get him wet. This is dumb, and campy, and lame, but Maxc is dumb too, so don't feel bad.

2. Shield grab the ftilt! It can be done. Input the grab as soon as the second punch of his ftilt connects and you should buffer a shieldgrab, allowing you to catch him once the attack ends unless he spaces very far away from you.

3. Force him to approach. Mac ALWAYS Has to approach Mario. You have fireballs, he has nothing. He has to approach you in one of a few limited ways, usually side-b, dash attack, or running up, shielding, and ftilting. Get a feel for the mac's prefference and shut it down.

Yes. I have used this strategy the last time against my friend's Mac and it did help. Another thing I have noticed is that once he has approached, you can use your B-Airs to bait him in and watch when he whiffs an attack. When he whiffs you have the opportunity for a pivot sweet F-Smash. Almost always lands in the sweet spot. Smart Mac's will realize that they can air dodge the beginning of Mario's fludd avoiding most of it. That is your chance to go for an offensive maneuver like a spike or Bair, but they are going to expect that so watch that counter.

 

[Mrwhatzitooya]

You need to get Mac off stage, as with most characters' counters to Mac, to really be able to finish him off efficiently. I find that a combination of FLUDD and the Cape is really useful, especially of you can use FLUDD to push him far enough away from the edge that he HAS to use SideB. At that point, you've got him. Just get in line with his trajectory and swish that Cape! It's not only flashy, but very satisfying to KO Mac in this way.

 

[IggyD]

I usually just play on the edge against Little Mac. Avoid confronting him in the middle of the stage because he racks up damage easily. Here's a video of me fighting a Little Mac. 2 stocked ^_^

 

[HeroMystic]

That Mac was just bad.

Unfortunately, all For Glory Macs are bad.

 

[IggyD]

Yea he was pretty bad. I have yet to play a good mac. I would assume you do similar things. Just gimp

 

[Kwam$tack$]

ive been wondering this myself for awhile. Every attack u throw at mac is too light for his super armor. With his aggressive playstyle Mario can tag on damage fast, but every 20% he has to work hard to tag on, mac can just send it back effortlessly in a second with any smash against any of mario's aerials and it ends up getting him destroyed. It seems like the only way to do it effectively IS with the cape/fludd. I definitely gotta start incorporating that into my gameplay

 

[MarioMeteor]

ive been wondering this myself for awhile. Every attack u throw at mac is too light for his super armor. With his aggressive playstyle Mario can tag on damage fast, but every 20% he has to work hard to tag on, mac can just send it back effortlessly in a second with any smash against any of mario's aerials and it ends up getting him destroyed. It seems like the only way to do it effectively IS with the cape/fludd. I definitely gotta start incorporating that into my gameplay

Back throw to FLUDD. That's literally all it takes. If you're feeling aggressive, chase him off stay and Cape him, he can't do anything about it. You'd be surprised how helpful FLUDD is.

 

[Thegopher]

Who do you guys think is marios worst matchup in smash 4?

 

[HeroMystic]

Either Diddy or Luigi.

I haven't seen any 65:35+ MUs against Mario in this game yet.

 

[ImReallyFeelingIt]

It might be me only, but when I play Mario I have a hard time going against Rosalina and Luma. If not them anyone with an outstanding air game and won't let me touch the ground for more than 3 seconds.

 

[Incendiary]

Rosalina. I think the only thing Mario has on her is early KO potential

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm not sure why everyone is saying Rosalina is Mario's hardest MU. Mario has one of the easier times getting rid of Luma and he can juggle Rosie pretty easily. Rosie has large range but Mario's mobility makes him a difficult target to lock in as long as you aren't wreckless with him.

 

[K Teters]

I personally have a hard time with Ness

 

[Stoven]

Captain falcon is the hardest IMO

 

[Malle]

As someone who mains Mario and has done so for many years, I know Mario in and out like seeing my face in the mirror. After thousand of matches i asked this question myself and I must say that Ness, Sonic and Diddy, in this order is the toughest i've had.

Ness somehow slips out of most grab-starting combos, interupts with his nair and has attackers with longer reach and priority than Mario's. Absolutely dreadful, as well as back throw being as strong as it is and fireballs being fodder.

Sonic is so fast Mario barely keeps up. Fireballs are our best weapon here and we cant rely on grabs at all. In fact, consider yourself lucky grabbing a good Sonic.

Diddy.. Well, Diddy!

 

[BSP]

Captain falcon is the hardest IMO

Falcon can be tough if the player is good and knows how to abuse Falcon's range advantage over Mario. He does more damage per hit, outranges Mario in general, has a superior jab in CQC, superior ground mobility, an edge in KO power, and has damaging combos of his own. We also are already susceptible to juggles and we have no answer to his Uair except to AD and hope he doesn't read it.

On the flip side, on good grab or tilt can mean you're taking Falcon from 0% -> 30% (Uthrow -> Mario tornado -> Fair/Up B) or from 10%-30% -> 70% with Utilt, Uair, and Bair chains finished with an up B. We can camp his landing well too, and we edgeguard him pretty hard with FLUDD, cape, Bair, and soft Nair. You need to edgeguard him well or you're going to die at 80% from a rage Fsmash). We've also got fireballs to help control his mid range game.

I'd call it even, maybe slight Mario edge because he gets more mileage out of his good strings and can edgeguard a bit better, but I don't think Falcon runs away with it.

 

[Stoven]

Falcon can be tough if the player is good and knows how to abuse Falcon's range advantage over Mario. He does more damage per hit, outranges Mario in general, has a superior jab in CQC, an edge in KO power, and has damaging combos of his own. We also are already susceptible to juggles and we have no answer to his Uair except to AD and hope he doesn't read it.

On the flip side, on good grab or tilt can mean you're taking Falcon from 0% -> 30% (Uthrow -> Mario tornado -> Fair/Up B) or from 10%-30% -> 70% with Utilt, Uair, and Bair chains finished with an up B. We can camp his landing well too, and we edgeguard him pretty hard with FLUDD, cape, Bair, and soft Nair. You need to edgeguard him well or you're going to die at 80% from a rage Fsmash). We've also got fireballs to help control his mid range game.

I'd call it even, maybe slight Mario edge because he gets more mileage out of his good strings and can edgeguard a bit better, but I don't think Falcon runs away with it.

Thanks! I'm training Mario a lot lately and liking him a lot! (Working on edge guarding with cape and FLUDD)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I believe a properly played Duck Hunt is technically Mario's hardest matchup. Mario really gets nothing from Cape in this matchup to deal with Duck Hunt's zoning, and Duck Hunt outspaces him pretty noticeably. The only good thing about this matchup is Duck Hunt has a moderately punishable recovery, but he's not exactly someone Mario will gimp very often. Mario however loses neutral hardest in this matchup imo.

Marth is also very difficult by design because he has more mobility, range, damage, and easily edgeguards and juggles Mario to death.

 

[HeroMystic]

After playing Emblem Lord I'm confident in saying Marth is not a hard MU for Mario.

 

[aquaticpineapples]

The characters that I usually have the most trouble with are Ness and Sonic. I cant find a good way to approach Ness without getting PK fired and when I try launching fireballs they end up getting absorbed. Sonic is just way too fast to even try to touch, so I just camp and wait for an opportunity, which usually fails

 

[BoTastic!]

I have not seen a single person say Sheik.

Sheik covers so many options vs Mario, you can't even jump in this match up.

Rosalina is pie compared to this match up. I don't find Rosalina that difficult at all. I feel like Mario struggles a lot vs a very defensive Sheik,

 

[Roager]

I don't get the Rosa hate either. As said, Luma's less of a threat to Mario compared to most, and once it's just Ros she can't zone Mario out very well. Or I'm fighting crap Rosas.

Worst matchups... Im not sure. Mario seems to go even with a lot of characters. Sonic isn't easy; his speed is duh and his hitboxes are pretty good. Shiek matchup's similar.

Swords seem to help against Mario. They break fireball pretty easily and they obviously outrange Mario's melee.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have not seen a single person say Sheik.

Sheik covers so many options vs Mario, you can't even jump in this match up.

Rosalina is pie compared to this match up. I don't find Rosalina that difficult at all. I feel like Mario struggles a lot vs a very defensive Sheik,

I never played a defensive Sheik before, so I can't really say. Plenty of high level players are saying Mario is pretty good against Sheik though, so I figure they know something I don't.

Again, I don't feel Mario has any loss that is past 60:40. Rosalina is treading more and more to 50:50 territory as more Mario players start to become more patient with their styles.

 

[M@v]

I probably don't feel shulk is that bad because I used to have to do that matchup with doctor Mario...so I had no range OR mobility ;_;. Shulk may wind up being a 4:6 in the long run for Mario but well see I guess.

 

[Vangoro]

I personally always run into issues when playing against a good Bowser Jr. player.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Here are my opinions here

Rosalina matchup, particularly for Mario is about getting rid of the Luma. One might feel like Luma messes with Mario's grab game, which is key to building up that low percentage damage for a Mario main. I think a tricky thing to start doing here is to get grabs and backthrow rosalina immediately. As you may know, backthrow creates hitboxes as you swirl your opponent around and those hitboxes will get luma out of your way for a little while. While not tacking on the percent you would get guaranteed from a downthrow setup on a "normal character" you can gain an equal (imo) strategic advantage by utilizing backthrow in this matchup.

I think the sonic and falcon matchups fall into similar buckets where your patience will be rewarded if you just stall out their full screen approach options (for falcon the mixup is dash-attack or dash grab) ((for sonic there are many ways to get in your face)) and then pick up on something predictable to exploit and net you grab action. D-tilt is great in these matchups too to halt a grounded approach and lead into u-tilt for more damage and good positioning.

Luigi I feel is a character that Mario is going to have a hard time dealing with. The neutral game between the two isn't heavily in either favor but luigi is going to get low percentage grab combos on mario while Mario is going to struggle to get low percentage damage on luigi due to his weegee-ness and his lightning nair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Sonic and Falcon, you just throw a lot of grounded fireballs to force them to slow down, and N-air a lot if you get the sense that they're really grab happy, do more DAs and U-smashes if they try to do aerials. Sonic forces you to shield more with Homing Attack and Spindashes or B-air in midrange, and he's a lot harder to kill. Vs Falcon is pretty close to even though. Even though he juggles Mario really easily, Mario can U-tilt him from like 9% to like 40% easily and then edgeguard him with the usual stuff.

Vs Luigi, play this on a custom setting if possible so you can camp him with Fast Fireballs and Gust Cape. The only way you can really win this is by hoping for a long game, and just trying to beat him in a spacing war, going for conservative juggles when they're safe.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I guess I'd like to see Mario vs Luigi be discussed. I think it would be a good way to motivate me to learn about good combos/setups to use against this character (Weegee is too slippery in this matchup) and also learn some helpful tips in the neutral.

Lots of characters to me feel like they can either be handled with fireball and bair zoning or they simply get combo'd by mario too hard and struggle once mario gets early % momentum.

Luigi however, seems to be able to handle both mario combos/pressure and mario zoning very well.

 

[-Sensei-]

My vote is for Rosalina

 

[Xeze]

I vote for Diddy

 

[HeroMystic]

+1
+1
+1

Lets keep the rest of the votes focused on these three.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

I'll vote for Diddy