• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Data Now, Let's try it Together: Wii Fit Trainer's Matchup Thread (Trying a New System & Owner Soon)

Oatmeal.

Part of a balanced breakfast.
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
903
Location
SoCal
Here we discuss how Wii Fit Trainer fares against the rest of the smash cast. After each MU I'll include tidbits of valuable information discussed about that MU.

:rosalina:

I'm just going to point it out here for the Rosalina Matchup.
Use Sweeping salutation, Luma will get thrown back to Rosaline (I think) and also hit Rosa. Her down be can be fine, it gives you room to move forward.
Your awkward hitboxes make a great boxing game as you do not have to worry about Luma sandwiching you. You hit behind and in front of you, luma gets thrashed if they try some setups. Ease in, never hit her directly from above or below!
Early Game: Wii Fit Advantage
Your goal here is to go in and rack up your combo damage. You can push around that giant hitbox better than most characters. Your awkward hitboxes would prevent Rosalina from combo breaking with Luma as Luma will most likely be thrown some other direction. Nair/Ftilt/Jab are fantastic tools for separating the two. You want to make sure Rosalina has no control over Luma. Do not be too obvious and do not stray from Rosalina too hard, as her close range is strong yet slow. Please don't nair into her, you /WILL/ get usmashed.
Mid Game: Rosalina Advantage
This is where Rosalina excels. She can no longer be followed up and grabbing her with Luma around is asking to be killed. This is where Sun Salutation should be used to keep them at bay. Sweeping Sun is the preferred one as it carries Luma away. It doesn't matter if Rosalina can absorb the projectile, your focus is to remove that star from battle and rack up what little damage you can. Wii Fit is pretty mobile and agile so it's going to be one uphill battle.
End Game: Rosalina Advantage
WiiFit can't kill. Rosalina accidentally kills. When you're at a high percent Rosalina's smashes are deadly. Upsmash will cover tons of ground around her, Dsmash covers FANTASTIC range especially with luma. Up Air is a trap you do not want to challenge. You respect that move hardcore. Becuase Rosalina has a fantastic recovery, she will 9/10 times recover from far low as to not get gimped. Wii Fit can gimp rosalina STRAIGHT DOWN only. I'm not 100% sure on the invincibility of her recovery, but a fair near the ledge can put a thorn in her side. Unfortunately because of Wii Fit's recovery, spikes decimate Wii Fit. This is a pretty uphill battle. You can kill her earlier than most characters so it's not a hopeless uphill battle. Just be super careful as her smashes pack a HUGE punch
My Judgement on Matchup: 60:40 Rosalina
Understanding Rosalina and Luma
  • Rosalina is a very interesting take on two old mechanics. The puppeteer character. And the glass canon.
  • As a puppeteer character, she controls Luma who she can shoot out or leave at default position and control with either her NeutralB / Side B instructions or by performing normals meaning that Luma is essentially a character on her own.
  • Luma is also a glass canon, being very susceptible to strong hitting attacks, as that will put him into a tumble that he can not recover from until he returns to neutral.
  • Unless changed otherwise, Luma likes being positioned in front of Rosalina, operating as a physical shield, a turret, and a disjoint all in one.
  • He will react to the players button presses even in the cases that Rosalina herself can not do anything, making them a dangerous combination to face on levels similar to those of the Ice Climbers from previous games.
  • This includes shielding and grabbing although Luma is unable to do either of these things.
  • He has a total of 52HP and will respond after death every 8 seconds.
  • Despite her size, Rosalina has no weight and falls into the glass canon class herself. She however is able to cover this weakness very well by having some of the best if not THE best defensive options in the game.
  • Her movement, while outclassed by characters like Fox and Sheik, is still very decent and she can close in on you very fast if you're not careful.
  • Her rolls and dodges make her invisible during their invincible frames, making it harder than most to read her. If a RosaLuma player has a good handle on this, you're gonna have a bad time if you're not watching closely enough.
  • She's incredibly floaty and has decent aerial maneuverability.
  • Her jumps are pretty great and will take her decently high.
  • She has a crouch/crawl, and despite it's weird appearance, is fairly good at letting her repeat while keeping her in position to retaliate.
  • Her foxtrot is pretty good but because Luma can't keep up with things like perfect pivots, and her dash dance is difficult on 3DS, you probably won't see it much at least until WiiU.
Up against our own special character mechanic, it becomes an interesting fight as it virtually counters her own. Double sided attacks at the least will desync Luma often enough that she'll become unable to respond to player commands. At worst, we'll flat out put him into tumble where he can't do anything to help her at all.
This doesn't make the fight a cakewalk by any means, as Rosalina is still very competent on her own, but being able to get in without the fear of Luma acting as a shield or threat behind you as you put on pressure is certainly nice.
- Rosalina's jab is pretty basic for Smash 4. Having access to both the 1-2-3 combo type and the multihit type. It's nothing amazing on damage and doesn't do a good job holding in the opponent, but it comes out fast enough to be usable and covers the area directly in front of her while her mechanics kick in.
- Luma's jab is much stronger and while it's multi hit still lacks damage and lacks a hold like Little Mac, the three hit combo has great knock back, and the jab hits can easily setup into Utilt and Usmash links.
- Her dash attack doesn't travel too far with an air dive to stand, but can have that impression if Luma leads. It hits twice making it good against power shields. Decent damage, and pops you up for good follow ups.
-Rosalina's tilts are all fast and long thanks to her limbs and star themed disjoints. Luma sits in front or nearby to pile on the damage, knock back, or hitstun.
-Ftilt is a fast swing out of both her legs, while Luma imitate. Rosalina does 6% and Luma does 4% for a combined 10%. It can not be angled.
-Dtilt is the same only angled downwards for 4% while Luma hits diagonally downwards for 3%.
-Utilt is a great anti air that sends out a small ring that bounces opponents upwards. It'll miss you standing directly next to her and won't become a kill move with no vectoring until around 170%. Luma's Utilt however is a viable kill move. Sweetspotted(think Mega Man's Utilt) it can kill as early as 130% with no vectoring. It can also hit you on the ground unlike Rosalina. Interestingly enough, they don't seem to be too in sync for this move. If one hits you the other probably won't. 4% sour, 8% sweet.
-RosaLuma has a great set of Smashes and it's here that the canon aspect of her character type really shows. They're powerful, disjointed, and have less recovery than our own smashes. They're biggest flaw seems to be in that the animation happens before the hitbox, meaning you can sometimes hit or grab her right through the stars she creates.
- Her Fsmash has her lean forward and make a mini galaxy that hits hard for 12% and can be angled to catch characters(like wiifit lol) that like to dance around her. Starts becoming a kill move at 100%. Luma's Fsmash, has him throw a hard cross for 7% that'll kill 5% earlier. It can be overshot unlike Rosalina's and miss you completely. It can also be angled. Both have sweet and sourspots. Because they link into each other(from Rosalina to Luma) it can kill about 10-15% earlier together. Covers a lot of space besides. Trajectory on both works in your favor, so don't bother DIing, just vector to survive.
- Her Dsmash does a spinning kick that does 7% on the front and 9% on the back. Doesn't really kill until later percents(170%), but the angle it send you out at is one that sets up for powerful edge guards as you will almost always need to use your second jump to get back. As usual, Luma will hit harder and kill earlier with an emulated attack around 130%. In this move however, he attacks in the opposite direction as Rosalina, meaning he won't hit you in combination from the front, but may provide pressure if you dodge/block Rosalina's initial Dsmash hit. They'll hit together from the back and kill about 10% earlier.
- Usmash is her go to finishing move and for plenty good reason. It has her lean forward before throwing her head back dramatically with speed, power and a deceptive range. It has no sweet or sour spots and will hit just as hard in front and in back. 115% is the range it'll start killing. This is the one time Luma will actually kill later than Rosalina at 125%, but because this can become a joint attack, together it'll hit for 18% and kill at around 105%.
-Rosalina's aerials are generally long lasting disjoints with lots of power in their sweetspots that can sometimes change the way her body is positioned making it harder to hit her. Luma sticks to his tried and true formula of just hitting fast and hard and it works for him.
-Nair has Rosalina do a feet first flip that travels counter clockwise. The hitbox is a single hit that gets stronger the further it travels around but has no initial front facing hitbox. Luma does a front to back strike similar to his down smash only attacking in the opposite order covering the area Rosalina's Nair doesn't. They can combo into each other at lower percents. Keep in mind that Nair auto cancels FAST. Don't get baited into something by thinking you can punish it as hard as her other aerials. If you see it and you can't punish it while it's active, just move to regain space control. The double assault from the duo on landing isn't worth the attempt.
- Fair has her do a backflip using the same galaxy motif as her F & D smashes. Similar to them the animation startup and end is longer than the actual existence of a hitbox. If it hits it will pull you in for a multi hit attack until the end of the animation before sending you out with decent knock back. Because it's active for so long, lots of RosaLuma players like to edge guard with this as well as a general aerial approach. If you try to beat it, attack from the top or bottom. Luma does what appears to be a shovel hook. Part hook, part uppercut, it'll hit hard and sometimes knock you into Rosalina's still active frames. Luma knocks you up and Rosalina hits you forwards. They won't really be banking on this as a kill move, but it will if she catches you deep enough off stage.
- Bair works similar to our own, stretching her body out for a fierce dropkick like move. It's the same as far as kill potential, but with much less active frames, and a much better trajectory. It'll send you almost directly horizontal making for a dangerous recovery. Luma emulates the back kick about a half second later either comboing you while in hitstun from Rosalina, or covering the area she missed.
- Uair is another one of her really solid kill moves. Like her Utilt but without Luma's SRK-esque sweetspot. This time, Luma seems to knock you into Rosalina's attack knocking you at diagonally upwards angle behind him. This move hits hard, has a disjoint, and is really effective at catching air dodges. It hits harder near the startup and becomes a weaker bounce as the ring travels. She has good air movement so your best bet in avoiding this move, is becoming efficient in B reversals and using all your other momentum changers like Header and Deep Breathing to make it hard for her to follow you and then getting back to the ground quickly. It's strong enough to kill you from Battlefield's top platform at 120%.
-Dair is just the opposite of Uair, only it gets a weak spike on it's sweetspot. Because of similar active frames it can be dragged into you from on high. Luma replaces her uppercut with a speedy stomp. It'll send you out at up killing around 160%. Rosalina might actually save you sometimes by hitting you with the sourspot of her Dair when Luma would have killed.
- NeutralB functions as both her Luma shot and Luma recall. The shot portion's main use will be in sending Luma out to safely attack from a distance, but be warned, this move is extremely powerful and should be respected as a kill move since fully charged it will kill as early as 90% from default positions on Battlefield with no vectoring. It only travels straight horizontally however, so it's not excessively hard to avoid. Recall can only be used if Luma is away from Rosalina or desynced and will instruct Luma to journey back to her side. Neither of them can use any normals during the shot animation, but during Luma's recall he can act as soon as Rosalina can, making for some dirty sneak attacks as he comes back. It has decent recovery however so if you stay close enough to punish, she should wary about using either.
- SideB is her star bits which shoots a flurry of tiny stars from Luma where ever he is for weak damage depending on the number of hits. Not exactly a strong projectile, but it can be sufficiently annoying since Luma can act as turret far away from Rosalina. It's particularly annoying if it hits you while waiting to edgeguard Rosalina. If customs are on, expect it to be substituted often. Decent recovery here too.
- DownB is her Gravitational Pull. Rather than reflecting projectiles, it just sucks them in and takes ownership of them before they disappear. Projectiles can hit you while they are being sucked in. It has excessively long active frames making it really hard to bait and strike with the same projectile. This and Luma are the main reasons Rosalina can play as defensive as she does. If you're looking to bait it out, it's best to use Header at auto cancel range or from Dtilt shots so you can follow it in and punish. Luma can not protect her during this animation as he goes into his own.
- Her UpB is her Launch Star. It's a hitboxless blastoff that can be angled to suit her recovery needs. Covers a considerable distance and recovers fast enough that if you're not prepared for it she can get on stage unpunished. Luma can not protect her with aerials until she goes into free fall. Look to spike it and edge trump every chance you get.
- Rosalina's grab game while not as terrifying as the Ice Climbers is certainly powerful and being a character that inspires defensive gameplay, that makes it even more dangerous than it was already.
- She has one of the extremely few grabs of tall characters that can grab crouching characters taking away the great option WFT usually has when attacking shields.
-Her pivot grab is incredible and will suck you in if you're not careful.
-She also has a Luma lead, dashattack-grab. Where Luma will strike first forcing you to block or popping you up, and she will grab.
- Surprisingly, Luma does not assist her in anyway with her grabs beside the above tech. So no further buffs on her grab due to her special mechanics.
-Many of her grabs put her in perfect position to follow up either her tilts, or her long lasting aerials. DI/VIing away is usually as dangerous as trying to jump over because of this and at early percents it comes down to what player has a better read. Keep your momentum changers in mind at all times to combat this.
- Her pummel has her insultingly slap you in the face with her wand for 2% per smack.
-Uthrow is a weak tossup for 7% that links easily into Utilt, Usmash and Uair at early percentages, and then sets up for air dodge traps at later percents.
- Dthrow is fast floor slam for 9% that just as easily combos into Uair.
- Fthrow is a toss forward that sets up Fair links at early percents and kills at really late percents.(175%)
- Bthrow throws further behind and doesn't have any reasonable links, but kills a bit earlier at 160% and isn't a bad tool for getting you offstage or out of her space.
Her ledge game is nothing too impressive, and without the ledge invincibility on regrab, it's more risky that worth it with her normals. Keep in mind that she has disjoints that can travel through the stage and you should be fine.
Edgeguarding she can be really powerful due to her range and power. Keep an eye on Luma and be sure to punish any attempts she tries personally with your faster aerials. Reverse Header trades are always in your favor.
You can both kill pretty early with reads and set ups but you should be living longer on average.
She can go surprisingly deep with edge guards because her UpB is so good, but because the angle affects her distance and she can't wall jump or cling, we have a much easier time here.
Her aerials have longer active frames but ours tend to be stronger and faster. So air to to air is never a bad idea if you don't already see something out.
On Offense
Seriously, Rosalina is huge. Like, Samus is canonically 6'3. Rosalina is 7'6.
  • On offense, Rosalina will have to play a bit different against WFT. She prefers being on the defense and punishing attempts to break through with Luma or OoS grabbing. Reverse Fair approaches don't allow this with it's shield stabbing and double sided hitbox properties. Attacks in general will hit both sides desyncing Luma and allowing brief moments to put on more and more pressure.
  • FF-Nair is also a decent approach due to it's fast recovery and two hits preventing powershield strategies. Make sure to drop it towards her back so her best option for countering becomes a risky Usmash or Dsmash.
  • Our tilts which excluding Utilt, will put Luma into tumble keeping you safe from his counters, and Ftilt should be your go to move for poking and punishing. If you ever catch Luma out by himself it's usually all it takes to send him offstage and even if it doesn't the tumble desync lets you go in without worry he'll drift back and attack you.
  • She's not phenomenal in air to air fights so it's a good place to challenge her with your faster air game, and formidable air movement. Keeping her in the air and juggled for good damage is always viable.
  • None of her aerials are really good for breaking out of juggles but they can be used for changing her hitbox. In desperation, Dair might come out, but it's not a good trade for her, and a well timed Uair will beat it often. Use it's wavy animation to hit her with it while avoiding Luma. Remember that Nair combos into itself, and further more into Header and Uair and she should be in danger of reaching kill percents every time you touch her.
  • Most players are aware of their air game and generally just want to get back to the ground. Header and Breathing are great for prolong your air time. Look for the air dodges and punish whenever you can.
  • Don't be afraid to go deep to edgeguard her. You can make it back, and any well placed aerial against a character this light is good to land. Header is great too for those that like to safe their jumps, being able to autocancel it makes for a great option select against Gravitational Pull and frees up header for a clean spike hitbox. Uncharged Sun Salutes also do their job in making sure she has to deal with it because it travels so far.
  • Staying on stage is also viable because her UpB lacks a hitbox. Other character try things like Bair stage spikes or FF-Nair but we've got a much better option in reverse Fair, as the back hitbox will spike, and the front hitbox(if we miss) will send her right back out on the back of it's hitbox, or stage spike her on the front.
    • I'd also like to introduce a method I call Fortress Edgeguarding/ Goal Tending. Jump offstage while holding down so you don't grab the ledge and use your doublejump as necessary. When Rosalina tries to UpB to the ledge or past you, stop holding down and immediately SideB towards the stage.
    • The back of header has a hitbox that will spike, and the ball itself will bounce off the stage shooting backwards for any holdback angles. If she somehow makes it to the ledge, you releasing down will have you grab the ledge after, trumping her and putting her in perfect position for a Bair.
  • In general, just waiting for the ledge grab and then trumping is also effective. As is letting her grab the ledge and then dash dancing to cover all of her options.
Combining all of this with tomahawk grabs and good movement to bait preemptive Usmashes and grabs makes for a really frustrating character to play against, let alone defensively .
On Defense
  • Not a situation you see often, Rosalina HAS to approach you if you ever take the lead and go on defense. Unlike a lot of other characters, the duo can't really harass you from a distance. You can duck Luma shot and her projectiles, custom or no. The lag on a Luma shot is a free ftilt to oblivion. SH-Header auto cancels making it a great long distance poking tool and air space controller that Luma shots can't compete with. Custom header shots as well with the added ability of Dtilt shots to bait her downB. Sun Salutation desyncs Luma, and though they're all easily absorbed, you're healing 1% every full charge so it's in your favor to spam it. Luma can't travel otherwise, meaning her only option for taking back the match is approaching.
  • As mentioned, her aerials don't do well serving that purpose so she wants a ground game. Retreating F-tilt covers everything you need to given the space, and a good foxtrot like Wiifit's is a terrible Schrodeinger's Box to see coming at you or running away.
  • All of this on top of SS being shield, roll, charge, grab and spot dodge cancelable makes for an IMMENSELY dangerous character to approach with Rosalina.
  • Oh, and Deep Breathing lowers her damage and knockback while upping our own on a 2% heal that has similar cancel attributes. Get Fit.
Stages and Counterpicks
  • For the most part, any stage Rosalina benefits from, you'll also benefit from. She likes low ceilings because Usmash and Uair will kill earlier. Closer side blastzones also benefit her edge guard. Being light means that these things will also hurt her, but it's never been that much of a concern because of her ability to play so defensively. Cue WFT for the thumbs up of change on that aspect.
  • If you're still having a rougher time than you'd like, counterpick to stages with platforms for better juggle opportunities. Her aerials being so laggy make it really risky for her to chase you and WiiFit having 3 momentum changers means she'll have tons more movement control options. Usmash through platforms is good for both of you, and are similar in kill power only you have invincibility. Her Dair, Utilt and Uair disjoints can hit through the stage so don't get caught landing in a bad place. Remember that you can not FF an aerial through a platform and use juggles to keep her above you.
Specials and Custom MU Usage
Recommended Set:

Code:
3 Sweeping Sun
1 Header
1 Deep Breathing
2 Jumbo Hoops
  • Sweeping sun will unsync Luma from any hit even if she's flying at you fully charged. It will also psuedo-pierce and travel through Luma to put pressure on her shield. The after effect it has when canceled can also bait gravitational pulls. Healing 2% every full shot is also super nice. Best for those preferring to play more on the defensive side of things.
  • Enriched Sun fully charged travels fast enough that it will always be a threat they have to try to absorb preemptively and the large hitbox is always decent for edge guarding and space control since they have to deal with it. Best for the offensive minded player.
  • Sun Salute is good for following fullscreen and baiting gravitational pull. The wind box will also stop UpB attempts past it for the lols. Though this might be the case with the others as well. Because Gravitation Pull is so good, you really only want this Sun if you have to. Otherwise always switch out.
====
  • Jumbo Header she has to absorb and is really great for baiting off stage. Even after absorbing it can still be hit by you so she might even do the work for you. It's also the best header for being in her face(just outside of Luma's range) since it auto cancels at the same height as normal header. Obviously best for offensive play.
  • Weighted is good for edge guarding because of the angle. Again she has to deal with it. And if not it'll hurt and may even kill due to it's power. Since you'll be attacking on high with it and need to cancel the lag with another move, it's a really risky special but can pay off if you're proficient in lag canceling. It's most useful aspect is in stopping her forward dash towards you. Best when you want that defensive advantage of such.
  • Normal header is great for stopping any aerial approach and has a great angle for platforms. It's also great for baiting down b and controlling short hop space with no lag. Best recovery and long range edge options and the only one with documented customs shots for baits and such. Plays a great role defensive and offense.
===
  • Deep Breathing is always great and holds the threat of "I can kill you as early as 60% do you really want to get hit while this is active?" over her head every time it's activated. Also boosts your damage and KB while lowering her own. If you're good at punishing grabs or laggy attacks, this is the DownB for you.
  • Volatile Breathing is your go to for sneaky huge header shots, but otherwise isn't too effective for edgeguarding or catching her off guard. Might find some use as an air dodge bait after aerial strings due to it air stalling and having a huge hitbox. I'd personally pass up on it but it's a nice threat to have in pocket against a character that likes playing so defensively.
  • Steady Breathing is particularly useful in this matchup because of how easy WiiFit racks up damage, and how early Rosalina dies. Since it takes away ALL of her kill potential for 8 seconds, things like Usmash and the like become invitations for Nair combos. You'll only realistically use it about once per stock, but it's really all you need with moves like F-tilt and Uair at your disposal.
===
  • Super Hoops does it's job of getting you back as always. Let's you go deep and chase for players that like to do tricky angles. Go for it if you want to go offstage after her since she likes to go low often.
  • Jumbo Hoops will put on the damage and Luma can't do anything about it on shield. Also lets you chase her offscreen making WiiFit an even more terrifying presence offstage. You can also camp ledges to edge guard while holding down and only releasing once you go into free fall as a decent Fortress strategy. The only OoS UpB option which is nice to have since you'll see her dash attack plenty if she ever goes on the offense.
  • Hoop Hurricane makes your recovery really telegraphed, but the suction aspect might help you if you're having trouble with her edgeguarding. Also does the best job following up on Nair links.
Overall Rosalina is a strong candidate for top tier and is bound to see lots of tournament scenes, but with the powerful tools that put Luma on time out and her typical defensive play on notice, she's going to have a rough time every time a competent WFT shows up. 6/4 WiiFitTrainer.

Fitness Rating: 75
WFT has the advantage in this MU because reverse fairs and double sided hitboxes make it really difficult to play defensively while WiiFit has no problems playing defensive on her end. Outclasses her in racking up damage and keeps up with her when it comes to being able to kill early. Keep her up in the air for racking damage, and be sure to always edgeguard hard against her UpB.


:4diddy:

I missed the discussion on Diddy so I'm adding a tiny bit just for completions sake.
Diddy is strong. We all know this by now. A really strong showing and the terror of Uair has more people on his bandwagon than RosaLuma making him the #1 contender for top tier right now. That said, all of this talk of him "being the new MK"(which is absurd in the first place) or broken is rubbish. Don't be afraid of him he's got his flaws and weaknesses too.

On Offense WFT doesn't worry Diddy too much onstage. With no shield stabbing move, he actually prefers to be on defense so he can land a shield grab down throw to uair. SH aerials are also pretty good at keeping up a wall which is why this is a MU you must take advantage of WFT's incredible movement. Weaving in and out to bait moves, Diddy should never see you approaching and have a good idea what you're going to do and any preemptive action on his part should always be punished hard.
Up close you really want to take advantage of her jab game. Attacks beat grabs and we know that's what Diddy wants more than anything. Her's in particular can punish spotdodges phenomenally well and is pretty safe on shield if you don't finish out the combo. Using the max range of her tilts is an always. You'll be surprised what you can get away with when you do. Grab attempts should mainly be punishes as he gets a lot more off of them than we do easier, but using rollcanceled pivots to aim for his back is fantastic. If you have to use any smash, I always recommend going for Dsmash below kill percents. You want Diddy offstage and the angle on dsmash is great for gimping. As always, use your air mobility to aim your attacks for opponents backsides. If you're landing an equal amount of punishes WFT actually racks up damage twice as fast as Diddy. Keep his grab in mind, keep him above you when you can, keep him honest and on his toes with projectiles, and keep him offstage.
On Defense WFT can really become a threat for Diddy. SS beats his projectiles easily and cancels into shield meaning she's got far too many options for anything beyond a really good read to cover consistently. Header also beats his projectiles and can control a good amount of space with no lag. Pivots, B-reversals, slide delays, Foxtrotting, dash dancing, and general good movement in air and on the ground makes it really dangerous for Diddy to chase her so stay as mobile as possible. Frustrate them into making risky plays that you can punish. Don't forget crouching either. It'll duck under things his usual SH game and give you ample time to punish OoS if he commits to dropping it on her tiny hitbox. I'm pretty sure he can grab you out of it being such a short character, but it's fairly risky seeing as her hurtbox changes when standing making crouch>jab a really good option if she reads the attempt or even the dash in shield/airdodge bait. Crouching also wrecks his command grab, it will whiff for tons of lag leaving only the command kick available which you can pretty much render moot by shielding as soon as he gets close enough to the ground. Alternatively you can challenge this with header. It will almost always be in your favor to trade and you should look to do this in your offstage game. Diddy actually has a hard time killing, but benefits immensely from rage so this MU really comes down to having a good understanding of both of your options in every situation. If you're knocked into the air, use your momentum changers to confuse your landing. Going off stage is better than landing on him with a half-hearted attempt at catching him off guard. DB should be saved for offstage game and defensive play. Switch gears often to keep your opponent off balance. Stay mobile, stay crouched, stay zoning.
For Stages WFT and Diddy share a lot of strength when it comes to stages. Both of you enjoy platforms, because killing vertically is good option for you both. However, Diddy outclasses our own Uair and while our Usmash will kill much earlier, we have to commit much harder for it to land. You both also don't mind FD/Omegas because being so speedy means you can chase people who go into the air and be there when they land. You trash Didds in the projectile department and have a lot less to worry about in recovering so with those in mind you want to aim for stages that give you a lot of space to maneuver, and stages that will mess with Diddy's recovery. This makes Lylat Cruise a good option. Otherwise go for stages with high ceilings to hamper uair kills or stages that change often forcing him into the air during things like transformations if they're legal.
Customs are as usual nearly all viable, (hoop hurricane is pretty whack). Just keep in mind the way you want to play the MU and what they offer you.
Code:
Sun
1 Range uncharged + Space and damaged charged
2 Space uncharged + Damage and Range charged
3 Range uncharged + Space and Healing charged
Header
1 Lagless SH space control + offstage sniping +recovery cover + ledgeplay
2 Lagless space control(general) + huge hitbox offstage + onstage shield + high angle space control on and off stage
3 Ground control + damage + low angle stage sniping
Breathing
1 all around buff for play
2 edge guarding + onstage space cotrol
3 8 second clutch play + best healing
Hoops
1 Go deep
2 Best(only) shield pressure option + best damage
3 Gimmicks
Overall, Diddy is going to be a tough fight that will always keep both players on edge. Reverse fair was a huge loss to our offense game, but her defense is still just as strong and will play a big part in the MU along with her zoning and offstage game. A lot of people earlier suggested WFT might be a counter for Diddy, but sad to say I don't think that's the case between players of equal skill. This MU could go either way at anytime.
5/5​



:4sheik:

Nobody does rushdown in Smash 4 like Sheik. Her ability to get in and out tacking on damage and pressure is fantastic and is one of the reasons you'll see her a lot in competitive play. Her strengths and weaknesses are both very pronounced making her one of the most balanced characters in the game. She's certainly high tier, as in the hands of a talented player she can be a nightmare, but seeing as rest is an important part of staying fit, we have to make sure to exercise our own tools and make sure she doesn't sleep on WFT.
On Offense WFT is extremely dangerous to a light character to like Sheik. While Sheik tends to rack up damage by tacking on little hits here and there by keeping pressure on, WFT drops bombs with every success. This is particularly noticeable when landing nairs which can easily go from 0-30 and 30-90. Not a good look for a character as light as she is. Coupled with grabs(specifically Tomahawk grabs), that can do up to 11dmg with no follow ups, WFT is an extremely dangerous character for her to misread. Trades are hardly ever in her favor and she can be outplayed offstage, something Sheik is not used to when up against the other high tiers (sans maybe Robin).This is amplified by having a much stronger ledge trump game. Sheik should be terrified to grab the ledge with you waiting on stage. Jabs as usual are really powerful up close, she doesn't have any really strong OoS options, and being able to crouch her grab means that your reads will land you harder more damaging hits. She doesn't have many options when you're below her that don't amount to gambles or running away. All of that said, Sheik has two very strong tools in her arsenal which can ruin an over confident player. The first is needles, you can duck them and generally shield on reaction but they absolutely kill momentum and that's all it takes for a match to turn into the Sheik show as she has unparalleled acceleration. The other is her recovery speed. Whether it's being able to dash into shield or having no lag on her bnb aerials, you're going to find that Sheik doesn't just hand out opportunities to punish her. She'll make you work for every hit and every grab and every modicum of pressure, but when you get it, you'll be rewarded handsomely.
On Defense Wii Fit Trainer can be Rosalina and Luma levels of annoying to Sheik. First off you win the zoning war hands down. Trades are not in her favor, needles have tons of cool down, do less damage, microcharge worse, can be ducked regardless of charge, don't cancel into shield, don't travel as far, aren't really an option in the air, and don't ever become a kill move at any reasonable percents. If she wants to play that game, please do. Burst grenade has it's uses here and there, but is certainly the cause of more of her deaths than kills at high level play. Beware SS detonating it on you and you should be fine. This only leaves Sheik going in as a real option for building damage and killing. However, crouching limits so many of her usual options that it's really hard on a Sheik player beyond reads. Most importantly, WFT can crouch her grab and SH game. This forces her to commit in every approach and risk getting shield grabbed or worse. Btw those approaches while crouched boil down to basically FF-nair and delayed fair for aerials, dash attack(lol), and walk up attacks that hit low. Seeing as crouching also acts as a crouch cancel, this makes it even harder for Sheik to kill than it would have been for her besides.
Speaking of killing, Sheik has 3 ways she generally gets the job done: gimps--which should be fairly difficult against a character like WFT, Uair--which was nerfed and should also proof hard to land against a character with so many options in the air, and the infamous bouncing fish -- which also got nerfed. Gimps are more about players being outplayed than characters tools being better so I can't offer much advise other than be willing to challenge her when you can, and be aware of your own tools to throw the player off. Uair tends to be a followup rather than an outright move, and with her grab neutered by crouching it should see much use in the MU, make sure to DI any grabs she lands on you to avoid it. Bouncing fish for all it's complaints in the community isn't all that bad, it serves the same purposes as Brawl MK's shuttle loop, and has all of the same weaknesses. On stage, you've got quite a few options against it. First off Usmash, and seeing as it will kill her before 100%, you should look for these opportunities. Crouching also lowers your hitbox low enough that it becomes unreasonably difficult to land. Spotdodging(which you can do out of crouch, SS and DB) is the way to make it highly punishable. Otherwise shielding is fine as Sheik has to input an attack before she regains control, and having two speedy projectiles certainly helps in this regard. Offstage Sheik will be looking for her chance to land this and so should you. Your obvious option seeing this is to spotdodge and go for a punish which is certainly safe and respectable. If you want to play dirty however, you can challenge it with header. BF is not invincible and can trade and be beatout by other hitboxes. This is not a trade she ever wants. Finally beware her recovery. Vanish is her pocket ace in terms of kill moves having tons of knockback and stage spiking pretty easily when it doesn't outright kill.​
Stage wise Sheik likes platforms more than you do, but she doesn't have any particular advantage over you; she just likes having more options from them. You're a weightclass above her so low ceiling stages like Halberd are pretty neat, and you also don't suffer as much from janky stages that mess with recoveries so it's well worth it to keep Lylat Cruise in mind.
Customs are all fair game here and will probably be more attuned to your opponent's style than the actual character.
Code:
Reccomended Set:
2212
Suns
1  Better  range uncharged +better spotdodge catching charged
2 Better space control uncharged + better damage and kill potential charged
3 Better shield pressure running behind + better heal charged
Headers
1 Better zoning + offstage sniping and horizontal recovery coverage
2 Better onstage pressure and stage control + large offstage hitbox and with jump low recovery coverage
3 Better shield pressure + offstage low angle snipes and kill potential
Breathings
1 All around buffs
2 Better edgeguard
3 Better healing and clutch
Hoops
1 Lets you go far deeper than she can and recover from just as low if not lower
2 Lets you hit much harder OoS + offstage carry
3 Lets you troll much harder than just crouching all match
Overall it appears that Sheik needs to exercise. We hit harder, throw farther, jump higher, crouch lower, live longer, kill quicker and look better(kappa). Yet,even with all of that Sheik still has too great of a neutral to suggest something as concrete as a counter. I might be giving Sheik players too much credit here, and I suppose with time we'll be able to accurately decipher just how bad the MU is between players of equal skill, but for now I'm calling it near even with a slight advantage to WFT.
5.5/4.5

(reverse fair would have easily made it 6/4)
 
Last edited:

The Real Gamer

Smash Hero
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,166
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
3DS FC
3437-3797-6559
DHD is an absolute nightmare of a matchup. A lot of her attacks whiff due to his small hurtbox, he thoroughly outranges you on all of his attacks, the gunman completely blocks Sun Salutation and the volleyball so he can out-camp you... You're basically forced to get right up in his grill, and against a good DHD that is much easier said than done.
 

PolarPanda

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
614
Location
Vernon, British Columbia
Switch FC
SW-5723-5971-6209
I'm kinda curious to see the matchups; I haven't played as Wii Fit Trainer barely at all and the matchups might make me reconsider if they're good enough. I should see how some online matches go, myself.
 

AvariceX

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
2,116
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
NNID
AvariceX
3DS FC
1177-8001-5699
Not sure what the fuss about DHD's hitbox is. On the ground the only moves that always whiff on him are Upsmash which shouldn't really be used ground-to-ground anyway and the front of f-air (back hit still hits). When DHD is crouching (or in his idle sniffing animation) then fsmash also whiffs and the front hit of ftilt might graze him (like a phantom hit in melee but no damage) but sometimes hits. Unless my testing was wrong.
 

dedekong

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
49
Ness was rather annoying to fight against, but not impossible to KO. Granted, the player was mediocre at best.
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800
I want to somewhat main Wii Fit Trainer but she's just so bad :'( I love her design/moveset but barely any of her physical attacks possess range aside from B-Air. Ughhhhhh possibly one of the worst in the game.
 
Last edited:

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,167
Location
Beastector HQ
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
I want to somewhat main Wii Fit Trainer but she's just so bad :'( I love her design/moveset but barely any of her physical attacks possess range aside from B-Air. Ughhhhhh possibly one of the worst in the game.
I'm glad Sheik is good in this one haha, one character I like a lot that hasn't seen the short end of Sakurai's stick.

...

Phrasing
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800
I changed my mind this character might be the best in the game.
 

JKarmageddon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
14
3DS FC
4828-4911-5045
Wii Fit Trainer is by far my most played, and I've found I mainly have a problem with characters like Toon Link and Zero Suit Samus. People who are fast and have good range can really take advantage of how WFT plays.
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
I want to somewhat main Wii Fit Trainer but she's just so bad :'( I love her design/moveset but barely any of her physical attacks possess range aside from B-Air. Ughhhhhh possibly one of the worst in the game.
I changed my mind this character might be the best in the game.
Man you're all over the place today. xD
 

InfiniteTripping

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
396
She does pretty poorly online. Seems like I do much better with her local or against computers.
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800
She's pretty good. Gotta keep that constant pressure game w/ sun salutation and her wonky hitboxes to trick people off guard into jumping into a nair or whatever you're setting up for combo ability. I wouldn't say she's top tier but probably top of mid or somewhere near bottom of high (from what I'm seeing so far). Deep Breathing is great but you don't have much time to land the kill and people are going to start camping us once they understand it gives more knockback and deals more damage. Pretty hard to kill w/ her when you can't rely on it. Love the character, probably one of the most unique Nintendo has put out but the Brawl-esque physics of this game are going to hold her back imo. The lack of range gets destroyed by the strength of shield and rolling in this game.
 

AvariceX

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
2,116
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
NNID
AvariceX
3DS FC
1177-8001-5699
Lag is really rough on her, it turns a lot of pivot ftilts (her bread and butter approach) into pivot fsmashes (free punish for opponent). I finally got around to playing For Glory today, played a little over 60 matches. Fox matchup kinda sucks but I might just need to get out of my melee matchup habits (I play Fox in Melee and play vs a lot of Foxes). DHD is definitely hard but more because of the can than the small hitbox. Big characters all seem easy, especially Bowser and Charizard. Yoshi was giving me a lot of trouble but I don't know the character at all. Pit/Dark Pit seemed slightly in our favour. Ness is probably even or slightly in his favour. Little Mac is definitely in our favour but lag makes it a lot harder than it should be. Greninja seemed even. These are all just first impressions.
 

InfiniteTripping

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
396
The thing I've noticed about Wii Fit Trainer is, she's very similar to Villager in a lot of ways. Villager has this remarkable ability to camp but his kill moves all hit really close, and his style of play is most effective when using all of those moves. Wii Fit Trainer I find myself playing almost exactly the same type of strategy, only with a worse grab, worse projectiles and a much, much worse recovery. I can play well with that style of play, there's just not a lot that Wii Fit Trainer offers over Villager if you want to play like that. I think the only thing Wii Fit Trainer does better than Villager is combo a lot better, which I think becomes less and less effective against an experienced player that knows all his/her defense options.

I really wanted to main Wii Fit Trainer, she is my favorite newcomer and there's just something awesome about her rambling on about her opponents glutes as she nails a fully charged smash move. It's just, if I am going to do that style of play, I'm going to pick Villager over the Trainer.
 

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
I was actually caught between wanting to main the Villager and WiiFit before I saw her crawl animation. I agree on that being the best way to explore the Villager's playstyle and develop his metagame, but that's only one of the options for WiiFit. She plays closer to a mix between Samus and Fox/Falco from what I've seen. Having the ability to camp and kill with projectiles only, or follow them in for approach like Ms. Aran, but having the combo ability, speed, and gimping power of a space animal, her kill moves that aren't smashes are also fairly good.

Speaking of defensive options, having a recovery that can be gimped with no hitbox in a game where making it to the ledge can be a potential bad thing, can't really be called better than super hoops imo. I also wouldn't call her projectiles worse or better, just different. If nothing else, you certainly have more options from them than Villager.

While I see Villager as being the (rack up damage with fair,bair, loid and go for the kill. I see WiiFit as being more of a gear changing character, being able to change the way she can viably approach depending on the player and matchup.
 

KenMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
1,122
NNID
KenMeister
3DS FC
3609-1224-8364
Even with her lack of viability from what people are saying, she's fun as hell to sandbag with in For Glory mode. lol
To be fair though, her side b move is a pretty decent projectile, since it goes over a lot of lower ones. Matchups like Rosalina for example seem pretty do-able (not winnable) because of that factor, assumming she can get around her hitboxes, considering her already awful range and hitboxes preventing her from safely getting around those disjoints.
 

AvariceX

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
2,116
Location
London, Ontario, Canada
NNID
AvariceX
3DS FC
1177-8001-5699
WFT to me feels more like a Captain Falcon who traded kill power for projectiles, and I think that's a pretty good trade.

I forgot to mention in my last post, Lucario matchup is probably even or slightly in Lucario's favour, Jigglypuff matchup is nightmarishly terrible for us from what I can tell, we may need a pocket counterpick character for this one.
 

Blue Mage

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
80
Location
Florida
NNID
Neoceus
3DS FC
1762-2875-1153
How are you guys dealing with Little Mac in For Glory? I'm so rubbish at fighting Mac, and the occasional online lag makes it even more frustrating.

I have a lot of trouble dealing with Macs who dash attack and dodge roll a lot. I can never react to his dodge roll online for some reason.
 
Last edited:

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
Lil Mac's air game is pretty much garbage so that's where you want him. Zone him out with sun salute spam until he gets close enough to start grabbing. Either dash grab or run away pivot grabs to get a hold of him. Up throw him if near the center and chase, or throw off stage if close to the ledge.

Side B has no armor in the air and you can tilt him right out of it if continuously if he tries. His UpB is also bad and he won't make it back after the simplest of edge guards like a jump out fair, but if he does, steal the ledge and then ledge drop to bair.
 

KenMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
1,122
NNID
KenMeister
3DS FC
3609-1224-8364
How are you guys dealing with Little Mac in For Glory? I'm so rubbish at fighting Mac, and the occasional online lag makes it even more frustrating.

I have a lot of trouble dealing with Macs who dash attack and dodge roll a lot. I can never react to his dodge roll online for some reason.
If he's rolling alot, then he's predictable. Just grab him out of a roll and Dthrow>bair.
 

Blue Mage

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
80
Location
Florida
NNID
Neoceus
3DS FC
1762-2875-1153
Lil Mac's air game is pretty much garbage so that's where you want him. Zone him out with sun salute spam until he gets close enough to start grabbing. Either dash grab or run away pivot grabs to get a hold of him. Up throw him if near the center and chase, or throw off stage if close to the ledge.

Side B has no armor in the air and you can tilt him right out of it if continuously if he tries. His UpB is also bad and he won't make it back after the simplest of edge guards like a jump out fair, but if he does, steal the ledge and then ledge drop to bair.
If he's rolling alot, then he's predictable. Just grab him out of a roll and Dthrow>bair.
Alright, thanks for the tips guys.
 

KenMeister

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
1,122
NNID
KenMeister
3DS FC
3609-1224-8364
I don't think Bair is ALWAYS guarenteed from Dthrow though, it really just depends on DI on the opponent's part, I just think that Bair will usually be the aerial that's stringed from it the most often.
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,167
Location
Beastector HQ
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
Camp on the ledge and throw him off.
 

Fadacious

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
16
I've found that playing against Robin was extremely difficult, especially with his projectiles
 

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
Are you crouching against Robin? It's a really good option since it dodges everything she can throw except sideb and a well aimed book.

Beyond that, WiiFit's projectile is way better than Thunder and it's variants, if you want to play the zoning game.
 

Kaiduru Zeta

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
167
Location
Richmond, Texas
NNID
Kaiduru_Zeta8
3DS FC
1332-7842-2519
I find her to be just bad against DHD,Robin. I deal with Little Mac by using Sun Salutation to keep him away then when he has high damage I either A.Throw him off stage or B. Find a point to forward smash him
 

Angbad

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
604
Location
South Central Los Angeles
NNID
Angbad
Alright I've been playing a ton of WFT. So far the most trouble I've been having has been against Megaman, Sonic, and Diddy Kong. Anyone else having similar issues?
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Rosaluma is a terrible matchup, EXCEPT up-b 2 just wrecks luma completely. Then you can try to juggle Rosalina.
 

Circa

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
2,874
Location
Three Rivers, MI
NNID
timssu
3DS FC
1891-2120-4792
I similarly only had a problem against one Rosaluma, and that was against a roll spammer when I was already pissed off and playing WFT in a way that really doesn't make any sense.

I can see how the matchup wouldn't be great against a good one, though.
 

crisspy727

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
106
Location
Las Vegas
Well you could send out little sun ball's and fake out a jump in and jump right back out and catch them with a Nair which could follow up into big combos.
 

Kirby Phelps (PK)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
253
Location
Onett, Ohio
NNID
PKGaming
3DS FC
0989-1762-3370
I fought against a Lucario and couldn't do anything. WFT has such small range and I couldn't find a proper way to approach. None of WFT's air moves worked, they're very unsafe approach options. And sun salutation just kept getting canceled by Lucario's own aura sphere. And volleyballs really didn't help much at all.

Also, Little Mac...what the hell am I supposed to do there?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom