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Why You Should Perfect Pivot

tears in rain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
The original title was, "Why Perfect Pivot Is Mandatory' but after sleeping on it, I realize that it is the incorrect word to have used when talking about Perfect Pivot in relation the cast as a whole. Not only that, but an advance movement technique will never be mandatory. It was a poor choice of words by me; my b. Though, I still think with Fox, and some other characters, it is of the utmost importance to adopt the PP movement game so as to help cover up any and all of your downfalls. That being said, it still is an amazing tool (when in the right hands) for baiting and spacing, regardless of who you choose to play. There is no reason at all that you shouldn't take 10 minutes daily to practise this.

Now, I say mandatory, but that's only if you want to win (with Fox) - but we all want to win, don't we? Before I start, I'd just like to say that this was originally written as a response to the thread in the character discussion of Fox called, "So About that Perfect Pivot..." but I decided it really deserved its own thread in general chat - the more people to see this, the better. First, the obligatory introduction; Hello! I'm an Australian Smash Bros. player named, Callum, and my main in Sm4sh is Fox McCloud ("Here I come" - Fox, 2015) I shouldn't have to explain this, but I will; these are my opinions - they are mine and mine alone, and no, you may not have any. Please, remember this fact. Also, I make specific references to Fox "Here I come" McCloud because 1) Like I mentioned earlier, this was intended for the Fox thread, and 2) He is a good example of how much Perfect Pivoting (PPing) can benefit your game - that being said, the benefit it brings can easily be applied to any and all characters within the roster.

Everything I will say is not intended as a way to toot my horn or claim that, "I am da beeeest." or anything else of the sort, rather I'm just stating facts to help others understand that the points I make are backed up by a certain degree of skill. I've practiced Perfect Pivot (PP) for around a total of 5 hours now (this is all you need, really), and I consider myself to be quite adept at using not only the standard PP, but also the Perfect, Perfect Pivot (PPP). As a side, I don't really care what others say about Fox, my opinion of him is that he is one of the worst characters in the game - I say this because of the overall range on his attacks, the time it takes for some of his moves to come out, and his general lackluster ability to kill opponents. I am, of course, basing this opinion on his kit when compared to other characters. See, a lot of other members of the roster have some kind of kill move that either kills at 80% or just comes out really, really fast and is coupled with armor. Fox, he really doesn't have anything like this - he is the definition of a glass cannon, and in a game where he moves far slower than his predecessors... well, I'll just go back to my original point and say that he's hard to do well with.

When versing players of an equal skill level, it is safe to say that out of the entire roster; Fox is the hardest to win with. I honestly believe he is only viable (if you excuse the term) when you are playing him to the utmost of your ability at all times. There can be no mistakes, period. However, if you can manage this; if you can be play like a beast the entire game, then Fox can do some amazing stuff. With all this being said, it will probably not come as surprise to anyone that I am of the firm belief that PP is not only mandatory, but it is realistically the only type of movement on the ground you should be using: the only other accepted form of ground movement is Foxtrotting, which in fact not only plays a big role in your ability to set up mind games with PP, but it's also a great tool to help transition into PP's on the fly. I'm sure this has already been explained in the past, but the reason dashing is such a no-no when using PP is because of the risk factor when attempting to incorporate PPing into your play; if you were to accidentally mistime the frames of your dash, it could very well result in you sliding right into the enemy (this still happens to me on the rare occasion). This is why foxtrotting is so vitally important; it allows you to have full control your movement at all times, and if you can get the timing right it eliminates any and all risk of sliding into your opponent.

If you are playing Fox (or any other character) then you need to be baiting with PP. By baiting with PP I mean (for example) Foxtrotting towards the enemy, PPing backwards when you have approached too close, PP back into them and begin your up-tilt and jab lock rotations. Another example of a possible bait scenario is to foxtrot twice towards them, PP backwards once, and then purposely input an incorrect PP once (maybe twice) so as to make you dash on the spot (this is called a short dash dance). If your opponent has a basic understanding of the game and wake up times, then they will know how much time they have to act. Granted, this is an incredibly specific example, I know, and it has prerequisite of a certain amount of distance, but it has happened to me in the past quite a bit. If you've been PPing all game very well, then the enemy will come to expect you to perform this all the time. If purposely screw up your PPing advance, they will view this as the perfect opportunity to strike and make their advance - when this happens, all you have to do is PP backwards (essentially right right after the incorrect PP) and precede from there.

Going back to the idea of using PP literally all the time; just do it, seriously. Practice it at least ten minutes a day without fail, and you will find yourself being able to recreate the movement in combat with ease. In almost any situation, deciding to PP over another action will put you in a beneficial position - the extent to which you benefit from this is different every time, but it matters not. If you are falling to the ground, and your opponent is either in the air or on the ground themselves, the most optimal decision for you in this situation would be to PP away from them the instant you touch down. Doing this not only ensures you are a safe distance away from them, but more often than not the enemy will try to predict where you were going to land, attack there, and thus leave their self vulnerable to being attacked. Compare the choice of landing into PP with spot dodging on landing, shielding on landing, or even performing a neutral air (Nair) on landing.

Spot dodging is no longer the safest choice like it was in Brawl, so that's out of the picture; if you attempt to predict their attack/ grab with a spot dodge, they will be able to jab you before your wake up ends. Shielding on landing will work only once or twice before the enemy catches on that this is one of the routes you will take to ensure your safety; so that's out of the picture. Neutral air? Meh. While it is true that most of the cast (Fox in particular) have an incredible neutral air that comes out fast and has little to no landing lag; it has become the accepted norm by majority of the player base. Even when you are juggling someone with your up-tilts, you better be expecting them to be spamming Nair because that is what they are going to do - if they can manage to air dodge one of your hits, then you should be watching for this and waiting for their invulnerability to drop off. If you were to Nair when approaching the ground, a good player will see this coming and they will block the attack (and probably shield grab, too)

Now that I've taken the time to explain almost all the ways you can safely land on the ground against an advancing enemy, let's put PP into the rotation. Let's make up a hypothetical situation; let's say that you are falling through the air, and you can see your opponent relentless charging towards you. You look carefully, and you can see that not soon after you touch down, you will be struck in a place you deem to be most unpleasant. If you PP backwards, you are suddenly safe - not only that, but your opponent will be in wake up of something they've done. This wake up varies, of course, and it's all dependent on what they chose to do. If you can see they've done something with a heavy wake up, you should be using PP to get right back into their face - the most optimal thing in this situation is, as always, to PP into your up-tilt rotation. Ok, but what if that damn ******* starts understanding what you're doing; he knows you will PP backwards once you land, he anticipates this, and he decides to run that extra distance to get to you... uh, so what? Who cares? You've just created a sizable amount of distance between the two of you, and the best part is that you won't have any wake up what-so-ever; you can do whatever the bloody hell you want.

So anyway, he anticipates the PP, and he is in your face - let's just say that this takes you off guard once or twice, and subsequently he punishes you - whatever, it's a part of adapting to the game flow. The next time the situation arises, you shield right after you PP, and then all of a sudden you, once again, have the upper hand. It happens again, and you predict he will try grab you this time, and so you spot dodge instead - this isn't entirely necessary because of the fact that you'll almost always be able to punish him/her with an attack once they are close enough. If you so desire, which you should, you can take this to the next level. This is done by timing your Nair to have 0 landing lag, PPing backwards, and then for good measure you shield, too. This is what I call, The Ultimate Defense (TUD). When attempting to land, nothing beats the TUD.

Don't misunderstand, there are times when you don't want to use PP. Though these times are few and far between, there is no denying that in some situations it just plain a better idea to roll. The best example of this is when you're being jabbed by your opponent, and it just so happens you are practically standing on top of them; right here is when you want to roll - you do so between the hits of the jab; you roll behind them to ensure their punishment. Going a bit off topic for a moment here, I realize that not everyone has the best PP distance, and in fact some of the roster's are actually quite atrocious. A good example of someone having a poor PP distance is Donkey Kong (DK). Even though DK has a terrible PP, he has an amazing Edge Slide distance. To top it off, DK doesn't require an edge to perform this other advance technique - it's important to know that in order to do an Edge Slide, you need to be able to PP.

Whew, it's just about over now; was it as good for you as it was for me? Well, I hope it was - after all, you're happiness is all that I care about /seedy stare. But seriously, though, this is really almost over now. Do you understand where I'm getting at with PP? I hope you do, because I honestly believe that we've been given this movement tool, and it has such a bountiful supply of uses; there is not reason not to use it. Better yet, getting yourself into the habit of almost exclusively using it with foxtrots and the (OCCASIONAL) roll will turn you into a far better player than you ever would be if you didn't PP.

If I could summarize this entire post then I'd say that... don't think that PPing is too daunting for someone like you to learn, because the reality is that it's incredibly easy once it clicks for you - and believe me, it will click for you, eventually. You'll sit down one day, and you'll start practicing it like you always do, and then suddenly you just start doing it. You'll think something like, "Nothings changed, but I can do it so efficiently now." Well, something has changed, and that change is that you put in the effort, and it's starting to pay off. Don't let this bloat your ego, though, because once you are able to effortlessly perform this technique, the next part of your training begins; learning to apply PP in combat. This is where PPing starts becoming difficult; you'll start becoming flustered, you'll feel this immense pressure on your shoulders and you'll find yourself thinking, "I can do it in practice, why can't I do it now?" Do not fret, this is perfectly normal. Personally, I took the hits - once I thought I was good enough, I threw myself into 1v1 against skilled players and tried my very best to PP as much as I could. Can you guess what happened next? Yea, I was punished a lot. It only pushed me to try harder - this type of brutal training where in you are demolished is actually, believe it or not, mandatory for the development of the movement. Then, after all that is said and done; the cows have gone to sleep, the birds no longer sing, and other such things - the speed to which you play the game has been increased monumentally.

I'm sorry, but there is no tl;dr. I invite everyone to openly critique and discuss the points I've outlined - I do not claim to be a god or anything of the sort, please understand; I am only trying aid the development of the way the community plays this game. I know that Sm4sh has a lot of members on the roster that favor an extremely campy style of play, but we don't have to play the game like this - we can make it a far more entertaining game to not only play, but also to watch. For everyone that attempts to make Perfect Pivoting your primary source of movement, I wish you all the best with your endeavors! My only regret is that I'm not able to see each and every one of you go through this magically magical journey that will see you all becomes masters of a much faster type of game play. It'll be worth the pain, of this I am certain.

How to Perfect Pivot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ_ZzAvSFis

How to Edge Slide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE

Special thanks to my good friend, Sebastian "Cream", for helping to point some of the glaring issues in my first draft, for serving as a person to bounce my ideas off, and also for acting like a training dummy as I wreck him every single day of his life in 1v1.

- daeD
 
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stancosmos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
489
read most of this, and i really don't agree with any of it. I feel it's easy enough to look at the top level smash 4 pros right now and realize that they don't do any of what your telling people to do here. From what i've seen there isn't too much Perfect Pivotting in high level smash play.Not that it's a bad technique, it certainly has it's uses, but if you can become the best in the world without using it much like high level players have done than it's not "mandatory" by any stretch of the word.

I'll try to keep my essay shorter than yours, but i have to ask about this statement:
"When versing players of an equal skill level, it is safe to say that out of the entire roster; Fox is the hardest to win with."
Am i reading this out of context or do you think fox is the worst character in smash? because i can tell you that you will not find that opinion anywhere else on smash boards. Fox is very good, maybe not diddy/sheik good, but very good. Certainly not lacking in kill options. It sounds like the bitter complaints of a melee fox player. I have never seen a tier list that put fox in anything less than B tier, and i've never heard anyone even say he's a bad character. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm sure i'm not the only one reading this that has no damn clue where you're coming from.
 

tears in rain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
read most of this, and i really don't agree with any of it. I feel it's easy enough to look at the top level smash 4 pros right now and realize that they don't do any of what your telling people to do here. From what i've seen there isn't too much Perfect Pivotting in high level smash play.Not that it's a bad technique, it certainly has it's uses, but if you can become the best in the world without using it much like high level players have done than it's not "mandatory" by any stretch of the word.

I'll try to keep my essay shorter than yours, but i have to ask about this statement:
"When versing players of an equal skill level, it is safe to say that out of the entire roster; Fox is the hardest to win with."
Am i reading this out of context or do you think fox is the worst character in smash? because i can tell you that you will not find that opinion anywhere else on smash boards. Fox is very good, maybe not diddy/sheik good, but very good. Certainly not lacking in kill options. It sounds like the bitter complaints of a melee fox player. I have never seen a tier list that put fox in anything less than B tier, and i've never heard anyone even say he's a bad character. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm sure i'm not the only one reading this that has no damn clue where you're coming from.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You seem to be adopting the mentality of, "If a pro doesn't do it, it means it's not worth doing." Which is absolutely ridiculous. The reason nobody does this is because nobody has bothered to put the effort into understanding all its possibilities. Sm4sh is a brand new game; its style of play is still blossoming, and just because the top players of Sm4sh aren't playing as I suggest they should right now, it doesn't mean they won't be doing so tomorrow.

It really seems like you've actually just skimmed over most of what I've said without paying any attention to the really important points. I explain why I think Fox is a poor character when compared to others, and I also explain that at the same time (I realize the hypocrisy) he is an amazing character if you play perfectly. Please, take the time to read every single word of this post, and then I'm sure you'll understand my reasoning behind why I made this.
 
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stancosmos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
489
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You seem to be adopting the mentality of, "If a pro doesn't do it, it means it's not worth doing." Which is absolutely ridiculous. The reason nobody does this is because nobody has bothered to put the effort into understanding all it's possibilities. Sm4sh is a brand new game; it's style of play is only just now blossoming, and just because the top players of Sm4sh aren't playing as I suggest they should right now, it doesn't mean they won't be doing it tomorrow. It really seems like you've actually just skimmed over most of what I've said without paying any attention to the really important points. I explain why I think Fox is a poor character when compared to others, and I also explain that he at the same time (I realize the hypocrisy) and amazing character if you play perfectly. Please, take the time to read every single word of this post, and then I'm sure you'll understand my reasoning behind why I made this.
It's not just any pro not doing, it's pretty much all of them. I get that it's a technique not yet mastered by anyone, but those who have mastered it are not the ones crushing tournaments right now. It just seems like an over-extension of the word "mandatory". you certainly don't need it to win, as plenty of people win all the time and never use it. I don't understand how you've seperated "winning" from being a top player. It's very well proven that it's not needed to win. i'm not a top level player but i've seen a lot of very talented fox players. A whole lot more of them then i see of WiiFit, charizard, game and watch. Even at top level play there's a decent amount of fox players. I know again i'm using the example of "if pros do it", but if we're measuring how easy it is to win with a character, looking at the players that win the most makes sense. Again, i just think saying he's the hardest in the entire cast to win with must be a gross exaggeration.
 

tears in rain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
Like I said, it's far too early for anyone to have mastered this. I consider myself to be adept at using it, but even I still stumble at times when I know I should not, and ultimately I lose the game because of this. As it currently stands, you're right; it isn't mandatory. But once everyone starts doing this, it will become mandatory - perhaps this word is an exaggeration, perhaps it's not. WiiFit, and Charizard both have special niches to their kits that make them viable. The greater example of the two is Charizard's Flare Blitz that kills you at what, 60% I think it is? WiiFit has increased Smash range when using the buff, and her triple jab cements the enemy into the ground. The problem is that Fox has been left relatively the same, and the rest of the cast have been given huge buffs, and so he really pales in comparison to everyone else, at least when comparing kits, which is what I'm doing. You see so many Fox's in tournaments because people like to play him; he's fun - that doesn't detract from my point at all, though.
 
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stancosmos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
489
Like I said, it's far too early for anyone to have mastered this. I consider myself to be adept at using it, but even I still stumble at times when I know I should not, and ultimately I lose the game because of this. As it currently stands, you're right; it isn't mandatory. But once everyone starts doing this, it will become mandatory - perhaps this word is an exaggeration, perhaps it's not. WiiFit, and Charizard both have special niche's to their kits that make them viable. The greater example of the two is Charizard's Flare Blitz kills you at what, 60% I think it is? WiiFit has increased Smash range when using the buff, and her triple jab cements the enemy into the ground. The problem is that Fox has been relatively left the same, and the rest of the cast have been given huge buffs, and so Fox really pale in comparison to everyone else, at least when comparing kits, which is what I'm doing. You see so many Fox's in tournaments because people like to play him; he's fun.
Yeah i agree, the amount of play often has to do with how fun he is. But I know Zero and Nakat play him often enough in tournament. And i've watched a good amount of streams of fox players and I really can't see how he'd be the worst of even close to the worst. I imagine if PP was actually "mastered" in a true sense, and someone was perfect at it, it would be extremely useful. But still not mandatory. In the same sense that if someone mastered perfect shielding it would be better than regular shielding, but the fact is we're human and nobody will ever 100% master these techniques so it's irrelivant to state how good they are if played by some godlike player. For now, i can see PP as being useful, but until someone spends the next 4 years practicing it every day it will never fully replace other movement styles. A characters kit doesn't fully define how useful he is. Fox has a ton of very fast to pull off attacks and some pretty reliable combo ability. His laser also ensures no camping. He has a lot of tools that a lot of the cast does not which in my oppinion ensures he will never be the worst in the cast or hardest to win with. Also i meant to put this in the last message, but i have read your entire post.
 

tears in rain

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Mar 19, 2015
Messages
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Perth, Western Australia.
Yeah i agree, the amount of play often has to do with how fun he is. But I know Zero and Nakat play him often enough in tournament. And i've watched a good amount of streams of fox players and I really can't see how he'd be the worst of even close to the worst. I imagine if PP was actually "mastered" in a true sense, and someone was perfect at it, it would be extremely useful. But still not mandatory. In the same sense that if someone mastered perfect shielding it would be better than regular shielding, but the fact is we're human and nobody will ever 100% master these techniques so it's irrelivant to state how good they are if played by some godlike player. For now, i can see PP as being useful, but until someone spends the next 4 years practicing it every day it will never fully replace other movement styles. A characters kit doesn't fully define how useful he is. Fox has a ton of very fast to pull off attacks and some pretty reliable combo ability. His laser also ensures no camping. He has a lot of tools that a lot of the cast does not which in my oppinion ensures he will never be the worst in the cast or hardest to win with. Also i meant to put this in the last message, but i have read your entire post.
You'd have to play a lot of games as Fox to understand all his downfalls - there are far too many to list, but I'll start with the fact that, for example, when jabbing C.Falcon with the full jab animation; he can actually break your jab just by starting his own jab - little things like this. You realize the same thing can be said about wave dashing (WD), right? while WD has the benefit of being preemptively used in the air, PPing performs the same neutral movement, and you can even perform shorter and longer versions of PP. Obviously WD and PP are done in two very separate ways; they both can be done at the same speed. There is no reason why someone wouldn't practice this every day for 4 years... it only takes 10 minutes out of your day for the movement practice alone. Just because I don't specifically mention all the good things that Fox has, because there a lot, that doesn't mean I'm not denying their existence - all this information should just be assumed.

I define a characters kit as their specials, as well as their attacking moves - so, no, a characters ability to d-tilt, up-smash, ect; that does define how well they can perform (whether or not this is the correct definition of a kit; meh) Firing the laser? How is that a fast pull out move? Unless you didn't mean to say that the laser is one of his fast pull out moves...? Because the move is both incredibly slow to pull out and to put away - you'd be hardset to ever find an application for it against a heavily aggressive player. Anyway, I'm going to bed for now (late where I live) - I'll reply to yours or anyone else's posts tomorrow.
 
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stancosmos

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May 22, 2006
Messages
489
You'd have to play a lot of games as Fox to understand all his downfalls - there are far too many to list, but I'll start with the fact that, for example, when jabbing C.Falcon with the full jab animation; he can actually break your jab just by starting his own jab - little things like this. You realize the same thing can be said about wave dashing (WD), right? while WD has the benefit of being preemptively used in the air, PPing performs the same neutral movement, and you can even perform shorter and longer versions of PP. Obviously WD and PP are done in two very separate ways; they both can be done at the same speed. There is no reason why someone wouldn't practice this every day for 4 years... it only takes 10 minutes out of your day for the movement practice alone. Just because I don't specifically mention all the good things that Fox has, because there a lot, that doesn't mean I'm not denying their existence - all this information should just be assumed.

I define a characters kit as their specials, as well as their attacking moves - so, no, a characters ability to d-tilt, up-smash, ect; that does define how well they can perform (whether or not this is the correct definition of a kid; meh) Firing the laser? How is that a fast pull out move? Unless you didn't mean to say that the laser is one of his fast pull out moves...? Because the move is both incredibly slow to pull out and to put away - you'd be hardset to ever find an application for it against a heavily aggressive player. Anyway, I'm going to bed for now (late where I live) - I'll reply to yours or anyone else's posts tomorrow.
I didn't mean to imply the laser is fast, i meant it's good for campers. it makes players come at you. very little timeouts against fox. I think on the other end of your argument, how many characters have you played a lot of games with? I understand you're a fox main so you have a good understanding of how bad foxs weaknesses can be, but also a very biased opinion because you probably haven't reached that level of depth with many other characters in the cast to compare it to.

WaveDashing has the benefit of not being that difficult. The ease of input is something to consider. In the same sense that sheik has a good chain grab, but it's so hard to input that not a lot of players even try it. Wavedashing can be used fairly consistently and although it's not the easiest input it's not as difficult as constant PPing. At least i had a lot easier time wavedashing.
 

Omega_Knight

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
72
The game is still in its infancy in terms of the meta so PP is possible to show up in high level play in the future. If pros do not use it it doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

I remember reading that if you want to be really good at melee you need to have been playing for at least a year. This game hasn't even been out a full year. Apex was a couple of months after the release of the game so it makes sense for the pros to not spend valuable training time grinding a hit or miss AT. Instead, they chose to learn the fundamentals of the game and it paid off e.g. Zero clearly just outplayed everyone.

Everyone who is part of the Smash Bros community can shape the meta.

With regards to PP, it is another movement technique that increases your options. Learn it, or don't. The better player will still win.
 

stancosmos

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May 22, 2006
Messages
489
I know he's not the definitive voice of competitive smash, but i asked Zero on his stream how useful he thought perfect pivoting was and he said " it's definitely useful but not necessary to win."
 

PCHU

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Wavedashing =/= Perfect Pivoting

Perfect Pivoting is only needed if you are playing Greninja, and even then it's not needed that much.
Pretty much this.
Even if I had access to a Gamecube Adapter and a Wii U, I doubt I'd use it any more than I do the few times I play it simply because my characters don't call for it.
I see how it can help, don't get me wrong, but I see no reason why it's mandatory for me to take an extra risk when I can just choose another option, especially since most of the characters I use have pitiful speed anyway.

It's just an AT that can further your style should you choose to make use of it, same as the others; I'd say that the only "mandatory" AT is l-canceling, and even still Sheik/Jiggs/Marth can pretty much bypass that and still operate.
While I'll admit that I didn't read through the OP, I can't say I agree with the thread title.
 
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Ludiloco

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Wavedashing =/= Perfect Pivoting

Perfect Pivoting is only needed if you are playing Greninja, and even then it's not needed that much.
Not even necessary for Greninja. You can do useful things out of it but it's not required at all. aMSa is probably the best Greninja and he uses it sparingly unless he's just showing off lol

But yeah using PP as your sole movement option is ridiculous and honestly kind of laughable. And the statement that Fox is the worst character in the game is completely asinine and makes me think you're just trolling.
 
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tears in rain

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Mar 19, 2015
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Perth, Western Australia.
Good responses everyone, thanks. Changed the title; I agree, there is still always a choice in video games, and using an advance technique to help you move faster is never going to be mandatory; my b. I think the issue is that I left the body of the text the same, and most of it was directed to Fox, who really needs PP to help cover his downfalls. Now, I'm still absolutely of the believe it would work amazing for other characters, but I only main Fox - so you'll have to discover it for yourself how much PP changes the game for you. PP is still something I think everyone should put the time into learning because even on characters like Luma, PP backwards from an advancing enemy can be an amazing mix up to use.

Stancosmos, you bring up some good points about wavedashing. I have played the entire roster enough to "play" them, if you know what I mean. I know that MrGnW f-tilt is one of his kill moves, and his up-smash comes out almost instantly and has armor. I know that jigglypuff's b-air is a strong kill move, and so is her dash attack. Ganondorf has d-tilt, Marth tippers to death at 80%, and so on. Fox's only kill moves (up-smash, b-air, and u-air) all have measly hit boxes - it's his up-smash you're going to be using the most, and if you miss then prepared to be punished because that thing has giant wake up. Marth up-smashes? He pulls enemies up into the attack. This isn't even a Fox discussion, though, and I should have just removed that part from the original post altogether.
 
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Sean²

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Advanced movement techniques like Wavedashing, DACUS, glide tossing all have one thing in common - they are all relatively easy to do consistently as they use combinations of different inputs on the controller. Consistent PP can be very difficult and even physically painful if you do it for too long.
 

tears in rain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
@ Sean² Sean² , I must disagree with your sentiment. Well, not entirely; I agree that PP is not something as easy to perform like wavedashing is, for example, but I disagree that extended periods of PP can cause strain. I mean, I just spent two hours writing a post about why PP should be used, and I have practised it for 5 hours total, so it's safe to assume that I kind of know what I'm talking about here. Once PP becomes a natural tool that you use in combat, it stops becoming a bother at all - and in fact, once you master Perfect, Perfect Pivot, which is done by inputting the directions on the joystick ever so gently; you won't even notice that your thumb is doing it anymore. At least, that is the case for me.

@ sogeki sogeki , PP looks weird for entire roster. Fox's looks better than others, and so does C.Falcon. As a side, if you want to see an absolutely hilarious looking PP; Falco - whew boy is that thing disgusting. Let me make this clear, PP is useful / works for everyone, even the ones with crappy slide distance. Regardless of distance travelled, you simply cannot deny the benefit of approaching the enemy in a neutral state as opposed to foxtrotting or dashing into them. Dash attacks are too predictable, and they are easily punished - PP's, on the other hand, are the complete opposite. And, like I said in my post; PP is a prerequisite to Edge Sliding, and more often than not you will find that the characters who have tiny PP distances, actually have monstrously sized Edge Slides. And, to top it off, a lot of the roster don't even need an edge to do an Edge Slide - ****'s whack, yo.
 
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Joined
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Not even necessary for Greninja. You can do useful things out of it but it's not required at all. aMSa is probably the best Greninja and he uses it sparingly unless he's just showing off lol

But yeah using PP as your sole movement option is ridiculous and honestly kind of laughable. And the statement that Fox is the worst character in the game is completely asinine and makes me think you're just trolling.
I use Perfect Pivot to swag out or link stuff like D-tilt > U-tilt, but it's so risky sometimes that it isn't worth it. However, I do like doing it with Greninja a lot, or Falcon to space jabs.
 

tears in rain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
I use Perfect Pivot to swag out or link stuff like D-tilt > U-tilt, but it's so risky sometimes that it isn't worth it. However, I do like doing it with Greninja a lot, or Falcon to space jabs.
Indeed, if you feel like you are going to be hit then you shouldn't PP in that moment. If the enemy isn't practically right on top of you then you'll have more than enough time to PPP away into shield because the movement happens on frame 1-2, or something like that - in other words; it is an extremely fast type of avoidance tool.
 
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