Why is Lucas considered a Dedede counter?

[KMB23]

I dunno if that is the general opinion, but I read it on some official matchup thread.

Basically, I *hate* dedede. My brother plays him exclusively, and during lucas vs. dedede i just want to shoot myself. I don't understand how lucas supposedly has an advantage. The waddle-dees block my projectile, and when I finally try to approach he just shield grabs me. I know, I know, "use good spacing". But normally that ftilt or dtilt is quick enough to catch me if he misses his grab, not to mention dedede's grab range is HUGE. He lasts forever, and is smart enough with his recovery to dodge the slow pk thunder. Going off the stage is murder.

Even though I have to deal with all this ****, I still win more than I lose. That isn't really saying much though, I won about 100% of my melee games vs. my brother, no matter who I used. I know people are going to say "just play how you do when you beat him"- but that's the thing. He isn't *that* good; he makes a bunch of mistakes. He's about an average (maybe slightly above average) dedede player. It's scary to think what the amazing dedede's will be like to play against..

Basically what I'm trying to ask: what are some USEFUL tips against dedede? ie: best stages, how to properly space, evening out the projectile game, etc.

Notes: I effectively use the bstick, I can zap jump, I know that his nair, dair are good, but dedede's utilt ***** them both

I love lucas, I'm not ready to give up on him.. but man, wario has been so good to me...

 

[ChaosKnight373]

i'm not the best lucas player myself, but, considering your skill, you should play mind games with dedede. even i'm trying to work on it too. apparently if he misses his smashes that means he is completely wide open. i find myself doing air and spot dodges, as well as short jumps. try booting up training mode and just focus on movement and defense. if he can't hit or grab you, then you can focus on your offense.

i hope that helps you.

 

[Earthbound360]

WTF? That' chart is WAY off then.

I hate Dedede with Lucas. Stupd PKF blocking Waddle dees. Friggin too long hammer.

 

[Fire!]

WTF? That' chart is WAY off then.

I hate Dedede with Lucas. Stupd PKF blocking Waddle dees. Friggin too long hammer.

The PKF doesn't matter anymore, only good with Ness now in terms of holding a foe down. Lucus's PKF is just annoying. Anyway, yes use your spacing but also use you airs. Dedede's best airs are up and down so as long as you are next to him in the air you can use almost any move at your disposal. Just be sure to chain them quick before he can throw a Waddle Dee or use his Nair.

 

[Earthbound360]

^^^
Did you just diss Lucas' PKF and call Ness' better?

BLASPHEMY! So much I could argue against this with, but its late and Im tired. Tommorrow.

 

[KMB23]

Yeah, I figured there was something wrong with that chart.. haha thanks for the input.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Lucas pwns dedede!

Dedede pwns lucas back!

Its a silly matchup. Kill him early with a stick and just keep throwing him off the stage and trying to spike. Don't get beat up for 40-50% off the edge. Use your n-air to combo the hell out of him. You want to fight him in close and keep knocking him back. PK fire when you have frame advantage so if he tries to do anything that's not dodge or shield he'll get hit.

 

[Levitas]

also, don't bstick pkf against DDD. (wierd coming from me). SH them at him and do it approaching for a dopler effect that outpaces the waddle dees. Not worth doing much though.

jab out of his downthrow, it'll connect before the regrab.

Get used to dodging against DDD, but don't overdo it, a spotdodge will often open him up for an fsmash (against, say, his Dtilt)

If he goes high on his recovery, note where he's gonna land, and time a Usmash. it's long enough that if he's on his way down, he can cancel it and still get hit.

Edgeguard. Techno's absolutely right here.

 

[Tyr_03]

I actually think Dedede's a fairly even match for Lucas. Most of the character match up charts right now are pretty skewed by personal opinions and unexploited weaknesses. Doesn't mean they're useless but they don't always give you the best representation.

 

[fridayslobster]

I play dedede and alls i can say is u need to dodge. I know its impractical but ddd can distance well so when he does his laggy moves, they distance u if u shield so do a quick dodge and then go in for the neutral air.

 

[BacklashMarth]

The PKF doesn't matter anymore, only good with Ness now in terms of holding a foe down. Lucus's PKF is just annoying. Anyway, yes use your spacing but also use you airs. Dedede's best airs are up and down so as long as you are next to him in the air you can use almost any move at your disposal. Just be sure to chain them quick before he can throw a Waddle Dee or use his Nair.

Oh no. This cannot be. Ness's PK fire better than Lucas'. Shun the non-believer.
Reasons why Lucas' pwns
1) Can combo into pkfreeze fairly easy if it connects (just try that with pk flash)
2) Pushes lucas back
3) Kamehameha pose @ startup
4) Lucas says "pk fire" like a 5th grader while Ness says his like a kindergardener.

 

[TheDownSyndromeKid]

Lucas Usmash + D3 upB = very sad penguin. Even works if he tries to cancel it into a ledge grab if you time it right.

 

[napZzz]

jab out of his downthrow, it'll connect before the regrab.

unfortunately its IMPOSSIBLE to get of ddd's dthrow chain grab if its frame perfect, you should'nt try to rely on this. pk thunder is better than pk fire against him. If he's deciding to stand still and camp pkt2 works well . At low percents that ddd is definitely going to try to cg, so just play as carefully as possible and dont let him get to close to you, stay off the ground if you can and just watch out for his utilt. Your dair will put alot of hurt on ddd (bout 21%) and be sure to abuse it until you can kill him off with a smash

 

[Levitas]

Nappy, that's incorrect, the chainthrow isn't perfect against lucas, and either way, it's a fast jab and is worth it to attempt.

PKT2 is simple to avoid, it's poor offensively.

If you're worried about CGs, use stages with platforms, like battlefield, and camp under the platforms with your back to the edge.

 

[Metal]

D3 cannot be spiked. FAKT.

I'm bad at spiking, but even at 1/4th speed, lv. 9 D3 somehow recovers from both bair and dair. D:

 

[SativaJoe]

Smack those waddle-dees right back at him with your bat, then approach with SH nairs and pkf.

 

[timandcarl]

Dedede is beyond a doubt the simplest matchup for me, and I'll tell you why: Lucas's melee hits vs. Dedede are just perfect. I play a very melee-oriented Lucas and it is extremely easy to chain SHFair Dedede. I'm not even kidding, you can SHFair him from one part of the stage to the other and he will have a ***** of a time getting out of it. Not to mention Lucas's U-smash outprioritizes Dedede's B-up always. Even when Dedede does F-smash, it is so ****ing slow you can run up and SHFair him in the face before he finishes most of the time, and even if he catches you off guard it's easy to shield. Oh yeah, and let's not forget if he throws a laser waddledee (I think it's called?) you can absorb it for a mega heal. Maybe I haven't played a good Dedede before but I consider the match-up a joke and have never had a problem winning. I figure no other lucas should, either.

 

[Trozz]

DDD's up-b gives him insane vertical recovery...

 

[gantrain05]

D3 cannot be spiked. FAKT.

I'm bad at spiking, but even at 1/4th speed, lv. 9 D3 somehow recovers from both bair and dair. D:

D3 can be spiked like any other character, while he maybe be able to recover much better vertically, he's still very capable of being spiked. a good Bair will spike him with not much chance to recover, and if he did recover it he'd have to use his Up-b and that leaves him wide open for just about anything you wanna throw at him.

 

[_clinton]

"1) Can combo into pkfreeze fairly easy if it connects (just try that with pk flash)"

PK Freeze having a use? That is BS...

PK Flash > Freeze...just try to umbreala yourself with Freeze ^_^

but yeah...Dedede isn't much trouble for my Lucas...or my Ness really...unless I'm having a bad day...then everything just kind of sucks for me ^_^

 

[gantrain05]

"1) Can combo into pkfreeze fairly easy if it connects (just try that with pk flash)"

PK Freeze having a use? That is BS...

PK Flash > Freeze...just try to umbreala yourself with Freeze ^_^

but yeah...Dedede isn't much trouble for my Lucas...or my Ness really...unless I'm having a bad day...then everything just kind of sucks for me ^_^

um yeah pk freeze is actually a pretty decent move, any time someone hears PK FLASH, they are gonna stand there and laugh at u, and if you are actually above a ness, he has other ways to deal with u than to pk flash, and if he did, the new airdodge system makes it almost impossible to actually hit with the big slow pk flash. but yeah, anyways, DDD isn't much of a problem for me either SH pkfire works well against his fat *** and Nair ***** his shield and does a ton of percent and can chain into an utilt to an Uair.

 

[Earthbound360]

PK Flash > Freeze

THis is from my Lucas and Ness comparison thread. People underrate PK Flash because they dont know how to use it. The above attack is long ranged and has infinite priority, it makes a decent edeguard, and has mindgames since people fear it *** they recover.

PK Freeze/Flash
These guys B moves aren’t so great honestly, but they have their situations in which they could pay off.

Ness’ PK Flash is powerful when fully charged. It creates HUGE amounts of knockback and causes maximum damage. It also has a pretty big hitbox when fully charged. But the glory in this move is mostly recognized in its speed. People use this move uncharged as a quick umbrella or replacement for a close ranged PKT or uair. The lag is very little and the speed that it comes out and detonates is pretty good as well. It sometimes is used as an edgeguard or mindgame on the edge to intimidate opponents from approaching the ledge. People FEAR this thing, and for a good reason. Should you hit someone with this on the edge, they’re a goner. The vertical range also helps. Compared to Lucas, it is better in knockback, damage, vertical range, detonation speed, mindgames, and hitbox size.

Unfortunately, the glaring and most recognizable weakness of PK Flash is its slow charge time and movement. This thing is so dang slow that it’s near impossible to land with power. People always see it coming. Since Brawl is so floaty and air dodging and sweetspotting have been buffed, landing a charged PK Flash is no easy task.

PK Freeze is a quick little devil. It has great maneuverability in the air and has greater horizontal distance than Ness’ Flash. It for some reason is pretty good at eating up shields. It can also be used for an edgeguard, but like Ness, it’s not always the best option. At low percents, it can freeze people long enough to do mean things to them. At very specific percents, you can chain a couple of these together right when an iced foe breaks out. It send people skyward in later percents to help set up for attacks.

PK Freeze is very difficult to hit with. Despite the speed, I don’t hit with it much more often than Flash since the hitbox is smaller. Also, sometimes, hitting with this is just not worth it. It sends people too high at later percents to really do anything to them, and the damage and knockback isn’t as great as Ness’.

I think PK Flash is better, even though they aren’t that great. People claim that PK Freeze is much easier to hit with. In reality, it is not that much easier since the hitbox size is smaller, and it is still a pretty slow move. It’s just not worth hitting with all the time unlike Ness’. Also, Lucas’ Freeze isn’t very effective unchaged, unlike Ness’. What people do not realize is that the best part about PK Flash is its quick uncharged capabilities. It’s lag less and quick. It can be DJCed for mindgames and protects Ness from attack from above due to its range and priority. Using it like this, you will find yourself hitting with it much more than PK Freeze since it doesn’t detonate as nearly as quickly.
Ness-3
Lucas-2

Feel free to argue. I want it.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Nothing in Brawl has infinite priority. I haven't tested PK Flash specifically but I'd be willing to bet it can be outprioritized just like Din's Fire depending on the move.

 

[Galeon]

Some moves don't have hurtboxes/can't be beaten. I haven't tested PK Flash but I know some things just can't be beaten. Kind of like people trying to beat the tail of Lucas's PK Thunder. You can try but you're gonna get zapped.

 

[PeachyD00M]

well um back on topic...

I play a decent DDD pretty often myself, and at first i was like you, **** you DDD! but after a while i got the feel of how my friend played and can successfully 3 stock him 80% of the time (the other 20% is 2 or 1 stock left lol). also you could easily punish little patterns in a DDD player's strategy, like chain grab into a smash, simple wait out the smash and come down with your choice of air attack. however your priority in that situation is get out of that grab! If your borther isnt an advanced player, i find that most unadvanced players have patterns like that.

Also, DDD is a big target so comboing him is easy. And PK Thunder will sometimes zap him out of the up B, and depending on the angle or where he is, he wont make it back to the stage :]

 

[gantrain05]

^^^
Nothing in Brawl has infinite priority. I haven't tested PK Flash specifically but I'd be willing to bet it can be outprioritized just like Din's Fire depending on the move.

no, pk flash doesn't get cancelled by din's i've tried this before, all i saw was pk flash go off, don't know what happened to the dins fire tho, but im pretty sure the tail end of pk thunder has infinite priority since even if u could stop it the thunder wouldn't go away and thus would just create more thunder.

 

[Trozz]

Jigglypuff can pound through Din's Fire and not take any damage. Can Jigglenaught also punch through PK Flash/Freeze and not get hit? Probably.

 

[Levitas]

no, pk flash doesn't get cancelled by din's i've tried this before, all i saw was pk flash go off, don't know what happened to the dins fire tho, but im pretty sure the tail end of pk thunder has infinite priority since even if u could stop it the thunder wouldn't go away and thus would just create more thunder.

That's not what he meant. Some attack probably neutralizes the move, just like a marth fair neutralizes Din's fire.

 

[gantrain05]

That's not what he meant. Some attack probably neutralizes the move, just like a marth fair neutralizes Din's fire.

ah ic, well lets get on that then^^ but i dont know if anything really does neutralize it, i don't remember anything neutralizing it in melee tho either.