[Discussion] Why is Link considered much better in SSB4? I think he's worse.

[Clbull]

I used to main Link in SSB, SSBM and to some extent in SSBB. I have never remembered Link being so slow and sluggish in a Smash Bros game before. Yes, he can actually jump now and his attack swings don't take so long to land, but my serious problem with playing Link (which is making me seriously reconsider him as a main in SSB4) is the excessively long downtime between attacks and the spacing required to even play him.

You see, Link is one of the few characters that lags significantly after executing a tilt or smash attack. His side smash leaves you unable to move for almost a full second after using it and his up-smash will perpetually leave you in a state of swinging your sword upwards three times with no way to cancel or even remotely negate the downtime.

Then there's his Hookshot which leaves you standing like a sitting duck, waiting to be abused if you even miss it. It also misses a lot more and is far less spammable than other long-range grabs like the Villager's net. It may be usable as a ledge grabbing option but it's not that ideal.

Then there's his shield passive, which still does nothing against the spam-friendly laser projectiles of Fox and Falco.

And the fact three of his four Smash attacks are weak projectiles which can easily be countered via shielding and with the Neutral B, lack the KO potential of other chargeable projectiles (i.e. Robin's Thunder, Greninja's shuriken.)

That, plus his dash attack, which unlike most other dash attacks demands spacing and is frankly quite unreliable due to this. Link is one of the few characters that has to execute his attacks perfectly, time and aim them properly or else will get punished severely, even to the point of easily losing stocks.

Please give me one good reason to main Link now. I find actually playing him competitively is about as easy as landing a job as a Wall Street banker.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

You want me to give you one good reason to main Link now? He can recover.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

And the fact three of his four Smash attacks are weak projectiles which can easily be countered via shielding and with the Neutral B, lack the KO potential of other chargeable projectiles (i.e. Robin's Thunder, Greninja's shuriken.)

I take you mean his "specials, right?

Anyways, those attacks have never been meant as KO moves but as projectile spam and zoning. By throwing Boomerangs, Arrows and Bombs, you can pressure your opponent and rack up damage without giving them room to breathe which can eventually help you to set them up for the kill. It baffles me that you call them weak because of their lack of KO potential; as a Link main you should be aware of their actual utility.
I'm also pretty sure that his clawshot has less end lag compared to his other iterations. I am not sure about his lag on other moves but it's generally agreed that this Link is better than Brawl's.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

You are missing probably one of the most important aspects about Link: bombs. Arrows. Boomerangs. Aerial Hookshot. These can be used to pressure the opponent, create spacing, and combo into other moves. His sword attacks may be slow on the ground, but they come out fast and are fairly useful for punishing rolls (dsmash or Ftilt/Fsmash) or comboing into his air attacks. In this game he has received significant buffs such as faster running speed, longer hookshot range, stronger boomerang, less landing lag from aerials, Fsmash and usmash link better...

I could just go on and on. You see, Link has glaringly more pros than cons in Sm4sh, probably the most we've ever seen in the smash series. This is why he's SO good.

 

[Geizt]

If you expect every move to have dominant KO capability then every character is nerfed in Smash4.

 

[Clbull]

Not going to lie that he does hit harder than most other characters (Ganondorf and Ike being exceptions) but the spacing required to land his Smash, Dash and Tilt attacks in particular just aren't making it worthwhile.

 

[Lunix7]

You are missing probably one of the most important aspects about Link: bombs. Arrows. Boomerangs. Aerial Hookshot. These can be used to pressure the opponent, create spacing, and combo into other moves. His sword attacks may be slow on the ground, but they come out fast and are fairly useful for punishing rolls (dsmash or Ftilt/Fsmash) or comboing into his air attacks. In this game he has received significant buffs such as faster running speed, longer hookshot range, stronger boomerang, less landing lag from aerials, Fsmash and usmash link better...

I could just go on and on. You see, Link has glaringly more pros than cons in Sm4sh, probably the most we've ever seen in the smash series. This is why he's SO good.

Pretty much this. His projectiles are actually really good! Also you should be using his jab and Ftilt more as they are pretty quick and his Ftilt can kill at high enough percentages. For smash attacks I usually always use either Usmash or Dsmash. Also he is actually very good in the air in this game with his Nair and Fair.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Not going to lie that he does hit harder than most other characters (Ganondorf and Ike being exceptions) but the spacing required to land his Smash, Dash and Tilt attacks in particular just aren't making it worthwhile.

It doesn't matter, Link's Jab comes out very fast and it's an easy attack to land, especially when they will be busy trying to ward off the bullet hell you are creating with your projectiles. And the spacing for landing his Smash attacks or Tilts isn't much of an issue when you will be controlling the field.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

What kind of spacing are you referring to, bro? You're not playing Marth where you need precise spacing to get tippers and ****. In reality, you need proper spacing with every character to prevent getting shield grabbed. Link is a swordsman and as such has more range than 80% of the cast. Some of his moves have some slight lag, but you'll hardly get punished if you have an understanding of "spacing."

 

[_Magus_]

I don't care if he's top tier in this one (which he most likely isn't). They took out jab cancel > up b. That was my fav thing to do with Link. It was my combo. And they ruined it.

 

[FSK]

I don't care if he's top tier in this one (which he most likely isn't). They took out jab cancel > up b. That was my fav thing to do with Link. It was my combo. And they ruined it.

you can jab once now to up-b, it works pretty well.

 

[_Magus_]

you can jab once now to up-b, it works pretty well.

But...it's just not the same *sad music*

 

[Elessar]

You know, your post reads as "I don't want to play Link because he's not EZ mode, you actually have to play well to play him". Link is a beast in this game and yes he is still skill demanding, but that's why Link mains do work. His game style is camp and spam, then zone in for the kill, though now you can actually engange people in melee combat and still win if you do it smartly. He can recover, jump high, all his hits have great knockback which renders the hitlag moot when they connect, the thing is, make the connect. You can't just rush head first into any fight and hope to have victory handed to you because you pressed A the most. You need to earn it.

So far the only negative aspect I've found that I still struggle with is his grab range. It's actually shorter than the chain. I've seen the chain go all the way to the oponent hundreds of times and they still aren't grabbed. I still can't get that spacing right. So what I do is only use grab after power shielding or when I KNOW it'll land.

The only thing you should be spamming with Link are his proyectiles, not his attacks nor grab. Do that = win.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I definitely think that Toon Link is still more worthy of play than Link himself. They both have their problems and they have similar strategies, but the drawbacks seem to be less for Toon even though you sacrifice some range. His tilts though weaker seem to come out faster. Honestly other than Japanese 64 Link, Link has never really been outstanding and I think you're judging him too harshly because the hype of "New Link" doesn't really match the reality. I don't know why this Link is the Link that loses you because they've done a lot of good things to the character this time.

Link and Toon Link are the characters I most play against since one of my good friends mains them, and I think the big problem with them is they can zone and stage control really well, but they don't have the tools to take advantage of the zoning and stage control. They can create space very well with their projectiles but then they can't really use that space to go any further but to keep creating more space - Link because his sword attacks are still a little too slow, Toon Link because his range just isn't there. Oh, that and Little Mac is one of the most popular characters online, and this strategy of zoning and spacing is just demolished by his methods of play and the Links lack of a speedy grab.

Anyway, like I said, it's not the Link that is going to wow the scene but if you've been a Link main this long, I think you've seen worse.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I stopped reading at "the spam-friendly laser projectiles of Fox and Falco."

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I stopped reading at "the spam-friendly laser projectiles of Fox and Falco."

All two of the shots Falco can spam now before the mandatory 50 minute cooldown.

 

[T0MMY]

Hi, I am currently working at a major global bank as an Associate in their Corporate Risk Management Department/Operational Risk Management Department, and I think I can help with your Link management.

Yes, he can actually jump now and his attack swings don't take so long to land, but my serious problem with playing Link is the excessively long downtime between attacks and the spacing required to even play him.

Of course, Link can jump now using the X or Y buttons in addition to the circle pad (pressing up is commonly called "Tap Jump" by my fellow banker friends). It is a well known fact that Link could not jump in previous games, unlike the other characters (Sandbag being the only other unable to jump). This opens a whole world of Control Assurance, Risk Management and Project Management opportunities in both the game and the financial world. But more on those Advanced Techniques (AT's) and Control Self-Assessment (CSA) later.

You see, Link is one of the few characters that lags significantly after executing a tilt or smash attack. His side smash leaves you unable to move for almost a full second after using it and his up-smash will perpetually leave you in a state of swinging your sword upwards three times with no way to cancel or even remotely negate the downtime.

Here I believe some banker wisdom will greatly influence your prerogatives.
Because Link is one of just 3 characters that lags significantly after executing a tilt or smash attack, I believe consolidating lag and making long-term investments will develop adequate policies and procedures for CSA Framework and PSR assessment processes. By doing so one may develop a technique to attack a second time within a given window of time for his Forward-Smash, it may sound incredible, but is still within the infrastructure strata.
However, it is currently unknown at this time the possibility of canceling the perpetual state of Up-Smashing, but some analysts suggest the attack itself may automatically cancel within a certain amount of given frames. Future projects currently being funded may provide an opportunity to cancel the U-Smash with a bomb, and further potential to cancel all FOUR of his Smash Attacks, but more research is needed.

Then there's his Hookshot which leaves you standing like a sitting duck

Although it may seem oxymoronic to be standing like a sitting duck, my team is currently performing internal control targeted reviews of various business units to help develop further aggressive market strategies lending to the Hookshot.

Then there's his shield passive, which still does nothing against the spam-friendly laser projectiles of Fox and Falco.

As friendly to spam as those lasers may be, I would suggest the team's strategy be to coordinate and integrate the results of the CSA with the Head Office GCSA framework, consolidate the results for HQA and report the results to Head Office.

And the fact three of his four Smash attacks are weak projectiles which can easily be countered via shielding and with the Neutral B, lack the KO potential of other chargeable projectiles (i.e. Robin's Thunder, Greninja's shuriken.)

Given that Link has just 3 of a total of FOUR Smash Attacks which are weak projectiles, we can still provide consultation to businesses/departments throughout the entire CSA process, provide training to business units on CSA framework, and perform internal control targeted reviews of various business units.

That, plus his dash attack, which unlike most other dash attacks demands spacing and is frankly quite unreliable due to this. Link is one of the few characters that has to execute his attacks perfectly, time and aim them properly or else will get punished severely, even to the point of easily losing stocks.

It is unfortunate that Link's Dash Attack is not a full-screen hit, unlike most other character's Dash Attacks, which equates to a demanding degree of accuracy, therefore to hold such a position a solid understanding of control evaluations and risk based control assessment is of the utmost importance. The ideal candidate will have 5-7 years of experience to develop regulatory assessment programs and coordinate with businesses to provide their assessments of the control environment.

Please give me one good reason to main Link now. I find actually playing him competitively is about as easy as landing a job as a Wall Street banker.

Many transactions fall short just before they finish. Circumstances suddenly change or emotions get in the way of negotiations. We find ways to continue the dialogue and ultimately reach an equitable acquisition. If necessary we will work for years on a single character's strengths and weaknesses.
My company's approach combines the strength of the Smash Community and our roots as an Smash Crew. As an innovator in strategy and tactics, we can make the transition to become a high ranking player in our region's PR, and so we understand the growth challenges inherent in our climb to the top and becoming a top player. Also, our customized debt financing solutions are designed to address the capital needs of growing companies.
That's why.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well that was nothing short of amazing. While there were times when I wasn't quite sure about what you were saying, I was at all times aware that what I was reading was changing my life in some small way. I think we can safely close this thread now as nothing else could possibly top that response.

 

[MagmarFire]

Hi, I am currently working at a major global bank as an Associate in their Corporate Risk Management Department/Operational Risk Management Department, and I think I can help with your Link management.


Of course, Link can jump now using the X or Y buttons in addition to the circle pad (pressing up is commonly called "Tap Jump" by my fellow banker friends). It is a well known fact that Link could not jump in previous games, unlike the other characters (Sandbag being the only other unable to jump). This opens a whole world of Control Assurance, Risk Management and Project Management opportunities in both the game and the financial world. But more on those Advanced Techniques (AT's) and Control Self-Assessment (CSA) later.


Here I believe some banker wisdom will greatly influence your prerogatives.
Because Link is one of just 3 characters that lags significantly after executing a tilt or smash attack, I believe consolidating lag and making long-term investments will develop adequate policies and procedures for CSA Framework and PSR assessment processes. By doing so one may develop a technique to attack a second time within a given window of time for his Forward-Smash, it may sound incredible, but is still within the infrastructure strata.
However, it is currently unknown at this time the possibility of canceling the perpetual state of Up-Smashing, but some analysts suggest the attack itself may automatically cancel within a certain amount of given frames. Future projects currently being funded may provide an opportunity to cancel the U-Smash with a bomb, and further potential to cancel all FOUR of his Smash Attacks, but more research is needed.


Although it may seem oxymoronic to be standing like a sitting duck, my team is currently performing internal control targeted reviews of various business units to help develop further aggressive market strategies lending to the Hookshot.


As friendly to spam as those lasers may be, I would suggest the team's strategy be to coordinate and integrate the results of the CSA with the Head Office GCSA framework, consolidate the results for HQA and report the results to Head Office.


Given that Link has just 3 of a total of FOUR Smash Attacks which are weak projectiles, we can still provide consultation to businesses/departments throughout the entire CSA process, provide training to business units on CSA framework, and perform internal control targeted reviews of various business units.


It is unfortunate that Link's Dash Attack is not a full-screen hit, unlike most other character's Dash Attacks, which equates to a demanding degree of accuracy, therefore to hold such a position a solid understanding of control evaluations and risk based control assessment is of the utmost importance. The ideal candidate will have 5-7 years of experience to develop regulatory assessment programs and coordinate with businesses to provide their assessments of the control environment.


Many transactions fall short just before they finish. Circumstances suddenly change or emotions get in the way of negotiations. We find ways to continue the dialogue and ultimately reach an equitable acquisition. If necessary we will work for years on a single character's strengths and weaknesses.
My company's approach combines the strength of the Smash Community and our roots as an Smash Crew. As an innovator in strategy and tactics, we can make the transition to become a high ranking player in our region's PR, and so we understand the growth challenges inherent in our climb to the top and becoming a top player. Also, our customized debt financing solutions are designed to address the capital needs of growing companies.
That's why.

To paraphrase, play him more and get a good feel for his strengths and weaknesses before jumping to conclusions.

But really, that post was amazing. I applaud you, good sir!

 

[Ryu_Ken]

My IQ went up from reading that post, but this still applies.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

It's a Clawshot by the way, not a Hookshot.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Links FASTER in this game. All of his attacks have seemed faster to me.

Most side smashes are higher risk moves, that hasn't changed. What has changed, however is Link's ability to connect his Fsmash2. Not only does Link's Fsmash1 juggle the opponent to land the second, way more powerful hit, but it can now tipper to space yourself from the opponent. Link's Fsmash is better than its ever been.

Link doesn't require the kind of spacing you're referring to. Unlike Marth who has to rely on the ability to space exceptionally, Link merely benefits from the longer reach, like it's always been since Smash 64.

He's always had the passive shield. It can save you, trust me.

His projectiles weren't made to KO (was any character's). Theyre, like always, meant to rack of damage, distance yourself from the opponent, set the opponent up for combos, and edge guard.

Link's clawshot tethers. It's able to shield grab from far away as well as aid him in recovery. Downside is its got bad recovery time after using it and missing. What's the issue there?

Sounds like you're finding reasons to NOT main Link

 

[MrFrigid]

I semimain Link (I main him but I'm much better with frog/plumber). And I gotto agree that new clawshot/dash attack are no bueno. Dash Attack is too tough to hit and way too punishable, clawshot has terrible deceptive range and is slow as **** on the floor.

Other than that Link is a ****ing MANIAC

 

[GAndrew886]

I main Link and i believe he is a very good character. He has amazing projectiles that combo well with each other. For example, grab a bomb, double jump, throw the bomb and then draw an arrow right after. If done right, both should land in the same spot. He also is a pretty heavy weight as he VI's pretty good. Link is also a pretty hard hitter, 18 damage with F-air, 15-18 damage with D-air, and a really hefty chuck with F-smash and very good knock back as well. As of his recovery, I would rate it a 9/10 since he can travel a fantastic distance up ward or side ways with the help of his bombs. He can get two up-b's or hero spins with the aid of his bombs. He can even use his hookshot to help him make it back to the stage a considerable length.

 

[GAndrew886]

If you want to know what i mean, search my Youtube GAndrew886. I made a video about how you can really use your bombs and Hero spins quite effectively.

 

[link7]

While they took away Link's AT, I think he's still viable as a character. The fact that they shortened the timer on his bomb makes his recovery WAY better. His Fairs and Bairs come out faster and make edge guarding easier. His jabs have nice knockback and lead into smashes. His projectiles are great. If want to land your Running Dash, hit the opponent with a Bair, then use it.
He's better in this Smash. Deal with it.

 

[MrFrigid]

There was something in the patch notes that said his 1st fsmash had less knockback, no?

 

[genesis_SOC]

Link's nair and zair both have significantly more landing lag than they did in Brawl. Also, his dash attack is actually worse as it's slower, weaker and has a much worse animation (in Brawl it was extremely fast, could hit at close range, and could KO ~100% on most characters IIRC). His forward smash is now a much less reliable version of Toon Link's, so it isn't as good as it was in Brawl either. Link's ground up b actually requires a much higher % to KO now too than in Brawl's, even considering the % equivalent difference. Link's down air no longer bounces off shields and also isn't as reliable as a kill move. Even the spike component to it actually makes it worse as before it would be a guarenteed KO at reasonable %s and now the spike will save them if they hit the stage. Did I mention his zair was nerfed hard due to landing lag? Also, the overall changes to shields, rolling and easier perfect shielding are all indirect nerfs to Link. His jab is worse. His bair can be spammed quicker but he has access to fewer combos with it than before. His uptilt is worse.

Those are all the nerfs I can think of at the moment. He can actually recover now, his upair and fair have significantly less landing lag, all of his projectiles do more damage, he's still a "heavy" character in the sense he takes a lot of % to KO but can move a lot quicker now, his jumps are better, the changes to edge hogging make him a lot better than before, and the fact For Glory is only FD stages mean he's better off as well. His down tilt is better. His forward tilt is better (surprisingly). His upair recovers slightly faster. He's much better suited as a defensive playstyle due to his nerfs and the overall changes from Brawl to Smash 4. It's hard for me to say if he's better or worse but I think he's slightly better than before simply because of his recovery. It's definitely taking a long time for me to adjust to this game, but I think his trade off for a better recovery did hit him pretty hard.

 

[BryE]

Link's nair and zair both have significantly more landing lag than they did in Brawl.

Zair does, not Nair. Nair has the same amount of landing lag compared to Brawl. The only thing you cannot do are auto-cancelled Nairs, which is a bad idea to do in the first place.

Also, his dash attack is actually worse as it's slower, weaker and has a much worse animation (in Brawl it was extremely fast, could hit at close range, and could KO ~100% on most characters IIRC).

Lol wut? Dash Attack couldn't kill at 160% Let alone 100%.
The new Dash Attack in Smash 4 is pretty much designed to kill. That is the main purpose of it. And it's a pretty good anti-air move.

His forward smash is now a much less reliable version of Toon Link's, so it isn't as good as it was in Brawl either.

Less reliable how? It's been patched so that the first hit connects with the second hit a lot easier. Not only that but if you hit the first part of Link's Fsmash with the tip end, it'll act like it's previous version and has proper knockback.

Link's ground up b actually requires a much higher % to KO now too than in Brawl's, even considering the % equivalent difference.

Link's up B in Smash 4 requires slightly more % in order to KO compared to Brawl. It has different sweetspots now. The closer you are to the opponent, the more damage and knockback it deals.

Link's down air no longer bounces off shields and also isn't as reliable as a kill move. Even the spike component to it actually makes it worse as before it would be a guarenteed KO at reasonable %s and now the spike will save them if they hit the stage.

Dair still bounces off of shields. It's only when you fast fall that it doesn't happen, just like in previous games.
As for Dair not being a kill move until higher percents, this is because of the fact that multiple moves have been altered to give Link more KO power.

Also, the overall changes to shields, rolling and easier perfect shielding are all indirect nerfs to Link. His jab is worse. His bair can be spammed quicker but he has access to fewer combos with it than before. His uptilt is worse.

Seeing how Link is now faster, as well as the other cast of characters have been modified to be more balanced, I don't see the changes made for the defensive mechanics in Smash 4 to be indirect nerfs to Link.
Link's Jab is only worse because it doesn't Jab Lock (which has been limited to 3 loops/hits for characters who can) And I fail to see why utilt is worse.

Not sure where you're pulling this data from, but Brawl Link has been pretty abyssal mainly due to his recovery, speed, and the lack of being able to kill easily. Aside from a few nerfs made to some of his moves, the pros really outweigh the cons in this case. Link is a lot better.

 

[8bit.Trotz]

As a Link Main from the 64 days, I think he'll slide down the tier rankings pretty dramatically. Better recovery, way way too punishable. A huge part of my game has always been bombs, and this time around they seem slower to prep. Good luck taking out a bomb against sonic, zss, shiek, fox, or even average speed characters. They'll rush you down on 80% of the omega stags, and suddenly your zoning is shot.

For a fighter that hits as heavy as he does, there's NO reliable kill move in his repertoire aside from his down smash. Everything else has potential, but is way too predictable, punishable, and needs to be pulled off with much more precision than ever before.

 

[Demacrez]

As a Link Main from the 64 days, I think he'll slide down the tier rankings pretty dramatically. Better recovery, way way too punishable.

What do you mean by this? With this kind of logic that means everyone with a good recovery is too punishable. I'll agree that his aerial game isn't dominate like others but that doesn't mean his better recovery makes him worse.

A huge part of my game has always been bombs, and this time around they seem slower to prep. Good luck taking out a bomb against sonic, zss, shiek, fox, or even average speed characters. They'll rush you down on 80% of the omega stags, and suddenly your zoning is shot.

Are you flat pulling your bombs out? Because you're not suppose to if you KNOW you're fighting a very fast, very aggressive opponent. Boomerang is slower than bomb pull, you're suppose to not let your opponent have any opening in any way if you think bomb pulling is gonna be a waste. In most competitive games you'll actually not be playing FD stages so there's that advantage. If you are, you are to play it safe and create distance and zone them out. If you cannot, use Link's fast attacks (jab, Nair, Bair, etc) to rack up damage and cause disturbance before pulling that bomb.

For a fighter that hits as heavy as he does, there's NO reliable kill move in his repertoire aside from his down smash. Everything else has potential, but is way too predictable, punishable, and needs to be pulled off with much more precision than ever before.

It's called setups. You force your opponent into these things which isn't that hard for Link. He just can't rush in and get the kill without them. He has a really good punishment game like most heavy characters do. He may feel lighter than most of those heavy weights but his attacks are almost as slow so use them strategically.

Link solves puzzles; the enemy is just another one.

 

[BoTastic!]

Link is Gud now. Or at least viable from what I'm seeing. He's just not EZ mode like some other characters

 

[Elessar]

Link's nair and zair both have significantly more landing lag than they did in Brawl. Also, his dash attack is actually worse as it's slower, weaker and has a much worse animation (in Brawl it was extremely fast, could hit at close range, and could KO ~100% on most characters IIRC). His forward smash is now a much less reliable version of Toon Link's, so it isn't as good as it was in Brawl either. Link's ground up b actually requires a much higher % to KO now too than in Brawl's, even considering the % equivalent difference. Link's down air no longer bounces off shields and also isn't as reliable as a kill move. Even the spike component to it actually makes it worse as before it would be a guarenteed KO at reasonable %s and now the spike will save them if they hit the stage. Did I mention his zair was nerfed hard due to landing lag? Also, the overall changes to shields, rolling and easier perfect shielding are all indirect nerfs to Link. His jab is worse. His bair can be spammed quicker but he has access to fewer combos with it than before. His uptilt is worse.

Those are all the nerfs I can think of at the moment. He can actually recover now, his upair and fair have significantly less landing lag, all of his projectiles do more damage, he's still a "heavy" character in the sense he takes a lot of % to KO but can move a lot quicker now, his jumps are better, the changes to edge hogging make him a lot better than before, and the fact For Glory is only FD stages mean he's better off as well. His down tilt is better. His forward tilt is better (surprisingly). His upair recovers slightly faster. He's much better suited as a defensive playstyle due to his nerfs and the overall changes from Brawl to Smash 4. It's hard for me to say if he's better or worse but I think he's slightly better than before simply because of his recovery. It's definitely taking a long time for me to adjust to this game, but I think his trade off for a better recovery did hit him pretty hard.

Link can recover now, and all the points you're making are asnine and show that you have no idea what you're talking about. I won't even reply to your ignorance until you show that a) you're willing to learn/improve; or b) You ask pretty please. L2P.

As a Link Main from the 64 days, I think he'll slide down the tier rankings pretty dramatically. Better recovery, way way too punishable. A huge part of my game has always been bombs, and this time around they seem slower to prep. Good luck taking out a bomb against sonic, zss, shiek, fox, or even average speed characters. They'll rush you down on 80% of the omega stags, and suddenly your zoning is shot.

For a fighter that hits as heavy as he does, there's NO reliable kill move in his repertoire aside from his down smash. Everything else has potential, but is way too predictable, punishable, and needs to be pulled off with much more precision than ever before.

You're punishable because you're predicatable and have no idea how to spam. L2Spam properly, and while you're at it, L2Read.

 

[genesis_SOC]

Zair does, not Nair. Nair has the same amount of landing lag compared to Brawl. The only thing you cannot do are auto-cancelled Nairs, which is a bad idea to do in the first place.

Maybe it's the changes to shields but fast fall nair into jab combo was a staple bread and butter for me when I needed to melee. Doesn't work any more due to getting grabbed immediately after nairing which just never happened in Brawl unless they perfect shielded which, again, was extremely rare in Brawl.

Lol wut? Dash Attack couldn't kill at 160% Let alone 100%.
The new Dash Attack in Smash 4 is pretty much designed to kill. That is the main purpose of it. And it's a pretty good anti-air move.

I don't know why you think that, I've killed tons and tons of characters at ~100% in Brawl with his dash attack. I often made sure to save it during fights to make it unexpected and not stale moves so that I could finish off opponents. I find it killing much less often in Smash 4, and also you having to properly space it so you don't jump over/through your enemy.

Less reliable how? It's been patched so that the first hit connects with the second hit a lot easier. Not only that but if you hit the first part of Link's Fsmash with the tip end, it'll act like it's previous version and has proper knockback.

The patch didn't really fix all the situations where the first hit doesn't allow for the second hit due to them getting knocked back in a weird angle, it just makes your second hit whiff if you use it at all during those times, even when you aren't hitting them with the tip. It happens more often than not for me; whereas in Brawl, that first hit of forward smash would've flat out killed. Not to mention sometimes you can DI your self out of the first hit to make sure the second hit doesn't land (Something I see happening a lot also to Robin/Pit combo jabs).

Link's up B in Smash 4 requires slightly more % in order to KO compared to Brawl. It has different sweetspots now. The closer you are to the opponent, the more damage and knockback it deals.

I think his sweetspots with it are the same, but I think it's best use was of an alternate down smash to cover both sides of you for a longer time to punish bad rolls and/or come out as a quick unexpected attack. Just seems like it's worse for that purpose.

Dair still bounces off of shields. It's only when you fast fall that it doesn't happen, just like in previous games.
As for Dair not being a kill move until higher percents, this is because of the fact that multiple moves have been altered to give Link more KO power

Maybe I'm forcing my self to fast fall when I use dair then, because I've never seen Link bounce off shields in Smash 4. I only play online so there's always a small delay, it's hard to tell if that's what I'm doing. I don't think Link needed any trade offs for his buffs, especially not to downair after all these shield changes.

Seeing how Link is now faster, as well as the other cast of characters have been modified to be more balanced, I don't see the changes made for the defensive mechanics in Smash 4 to be indirect nerfs to Link.
Link's Jab is only worse because it doesn't Jab Lock (which has been limited to 3 loops/hits for characters who can) And I fail to see why utilt is worse.

I think they're indirect nerfs because it's so much easier to put pressure on him now with shields. Just close distance to his projectiles with perfect shields, read his grabs and you've pretty much got him beat (This is how I beat other Links). This wasn't really the case in Brawl as I felt like he had a lot more better options. When he wasn't getting gimped or edge guarded badly, he wasn't all that bad on stage especially with his zair. Anyone who knows how to shield properly will kill Link no problem.

Not sure where you're pulling this data from, but Brawl Link has been pretty abyssal mainly due to his recovery, speed, and the lack of being able to kill easily. Aside from a few nerfs made to some of his moves, the pros really outweigh the cons in this case. Link is a lot better.

No one's arguing that his poor recovery was his worst feature, but he was a heavy character in Brawl which is why he had low speed. However, he absolutely did not have trouble killing easily. His boomerang could lead into a number of tilts or smashes to kill as a combo very easily, or the dash attack like I mentioned before.

I mean these are just my opinions as someone who mained Link in Brawl for thousands of hours. Maybe I'm just having a hard time with the transition and adjusting to the new Link, but right now I think he's just overhyped due to his recovery finally getting buffed. He's not going to be played or win many tournaments. He's not going to be holding a KotH on a livestream for very long at all. He's still going to get owned by high tiers with very little chance of winning. I think a lot of that is due to him being a defensive character with projectiles and those aren't what make a high tier a high tier that wins competitive matches consistently. In theorycrafting, his tools make us feel like he's got so much potential and can handle so many match ups well due to his versatility. In reality, it just rarely works that way.

Link can recover now, and all the points you're making are asnine and show that you have no idea what you're talking about. I won't even reply to your ignorance until you show that a) you're willing to learn/improve; or b) You ask pretty please. L2P.

Or maybe I just have a different opinion than you.

 

[Elessar]

Or maybe I just have a different opinion than you.

We're not discussing opinions, but hard facts backed up by data and empirical evidence. That is, kill %, knockback angle, frame data, etc. You speak gibberish and nonsense when talking about this. Also, from your post it's easy to see that you're just a bad player who played against bad people.

Why is there a sudden influx of masterful Brawl Links in this boards? Where were all these self proclaimed saviors a year or more ago? If Link was so awesome, why didn't you go to a tourney a show everyone how wrong the tiers were? Why show up now and say "Link was a beast" with no support other than your crazy spewing and unicorn farts?

Anyone who just pops in and claim to think that Sm4sh Link is worse than Brawl Link is immediately revealing himself to be a bad player who only played other bad people.

Also, L2Space for Fsmash, scrub.

 

[Drunken_Master]

It would take being a special kind of bad for Smash 4 Link to even be close to how bad Brawl Link was. I doubt we'll ever see the likes of Triforce tier again.

 

[KenMeister]

I think it's mostly because of just how vastly different Link plays from other games that throws off some people, not necessarily him being worse. I'll admit, I'm not a fan of Brawl/ Smash4 Link and still prefer Melee/PM Link since I lost my amazing SHFFL options (and I don't like 2 hit fair lol), but that doesn't necessarily make him worse in general since he got buffs in other areas that people still need to look more into. Same goes for Smash 4 Samus for example, she plays entirely differently from her past incarnations which many people had trouble looking past, but with enough development we know for sure she's definitely better than her Brawl incarnation, which despite being bad (like Brawl Link), people still enjoyed using her more in that game because of different ledge mechanics and missile canceling. I think it's really just a preference in playstyle, not Link necessarily being better/ worse mechanically.

 

[BryE]

Maybe it's the changes to shields but fast fall nair into jab combo was a staple bread and butter for me when I needed to melee. Doesn't work any more due to getting grabbed immediately after nairing which just never happened in Brawl unless they perfect shielded which, again, was extremely rare in Brawl.

Have you heard of shield grab? Because that's a thing, you know. Even in Melee you could get punished with a shield grab.
Also Powershielding in Brawl was a pretty damn easy thing to do. Way easier than Melee which makes it a much viable option to abuse.

I don't know why you think that, I've killed tons and tons of characters at ~100% in Brawl with his dash attack. I often made sure to save it during fights to make it unexpected and not stale moves so that I could finish off opponents. I find it killing much less often in Smash 4, and also you having to properly space it so you don't jump over/through your enemy.

Dash attack DOES NOT KILL NEAR 100%. How many times do I have to say this?
The only way you could kill someone at even 120% is if the person is Jiggs and you use Dash Attack while on the top platform of Halberd, which has a short ceiling. Not only that, but if the opponent doesn't try to DI as well.

Spoiler

​

But against a Mario, at 170% and on a neutral stage like Smashville, using a dash attack will definitely not kill.

Spoiler

Dash attack in Brawl was just unbearably bad. It's only purpose in Brawl was to get in fast, which you shouldn't be doing since Link should mainly be focused on zoning in that game. Plus it's easily punished as an approach due to the endlag.



However, in smash 4, Link dash attack can kill in the middle of the stage at 120%. Earlier if you're at the ledge.
The only problem with this move is that you have to set up for it or just read your opponent with it. You can combo into it at earlier percentages with a running bomb throw. But essentially Dash Attack is definitely not a move you wanna use to kill in Brawl.

Spoiler

As for the rest of your post, I'm not gonna reply to any of it because you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

 

[Elessar]

Damn @ BryE , did you make those gift just to reply to this tryhard scrub? If so, you have my respect.

 

[Demacrez]

Have you heard of shield grab? Because that's a thing, you know. Even in Melee you could get punished with a shield grab.
Also Powershielding in Brawl was a pretty damn easy thing to do. Way easier than Melee which makes it a much viable option to abuse.



Dash attack DOES NOT KILL NEAR 100%. How many times do I have to say this?
The only way you could kill someone at even 120% is if the person is Jiggs and you use Dash Attack while on the top platform of Halberd, which has a short ceiling. Not only that, but if the opponent doesn't try to DI as well.

Spoiler

​

But against a Mario, at 170% and on a neutral stage like Smashville, using a dash attack will definitely not kill.

Spoiler

Dash attack in Brawl was just unbearably bad. It's only purpose in Brawl was to get in fast, which you shouldn't be doing since Link should mainly be focused on zoning in that game. Plus it's easily punished as an approach due to the endlag.



However, in smash 4, Link dash attack can kill in the middle of the stage at 120%. Earlier if you're at the ledge.
The only problem with this move is that you have to set up for it or just read your opponent with it. You can combo into it at earlier percentages with a running bomb throw. But essentially Dash Attack is definitely not a move you wanna use to kill in Brawl.

Spoiler

As for the rest of your post, I'm not gonna reply to any of it because you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

I slowly clap for you, sir.

Even I know I can't pull all that information or examples as well as you.