Why does PM AI need so much improvement?

[EpicFlyingTaco]

Ok guys, rant time.

So since nobody really plays in my area (at least nobody that I know of), I'm usually stuck playing CPUs. At first I thought the CPU AI was actually pretty good, but that I played the CPUs some more, and some more, and then some more.

Now I think the CPU AI is utter dogsh*t.

This is all opinion, not fact, and is open to debate.

When I miss a rest with Jiggs, instead of punishing me, they dashdance with their heads literally stuck up their ass and do like a dash attack or something. Sometimes they don't even hit me at all. Sometimes they do actually punish me correctly, but its a rare occasion. Plus, most of the characters don't use platforms at all (have you ever seen a match with just CPUs?)

Yes, it is true that the AI does do things like wavedashing and L canceling, but whats the point of having them do wavedashing and L canceling if most the time they're getting killed from SDing rather than you actually killing them yourself?

Yes, there are some exceptions, such as Mario. His AI is actually half decent. But still, the AI is something that SERIOUSLY needs to be worked on for the next PM update.

Again, this is all opinion, not fact, and is open to debate.

(EDIT): I'm sorry for all of this. This was all very disrespectful of me, and I had no idea that only one person was working on the AI (I thought it was a bunch of people.) I also get angry very easily. I don't want anyone to be offended by this.

 

[Xermo]

Maybe because AI takes time to code correctly into the P:M engine??? You should've seen the Pre-3.0 AI. Not to mention there's only, like, one guy who does the coding for AI.

 

[Pluid]

Considering that King Clubber is the only one working on them, he's actually doing a great job. It's extremely difficult I'd imagine. Also, Brawl CPU's and Melee CPU's are 10x worse. The only problem I have with PM AI is that they kill themselves too much.

 

[Zujx]

Do you seriously have any understanding of hard it is to code ai?
King clubber has done a SOLO job of coding the ai it's amazing how much he has done for FREE it's very very very very impressive

If you want advice start playing on netplay on your computer if you have no one human to play with

This topic is so disrespectful if you think you can do it better do it yourself. King clubber puts hundreds of hours of hard work into the ai in a free project. He could be devoting his valuable skills to a completely diffrent thing and making a profit of it.

He shouldn't even have to look at garabage topics like this. Sorry for being a **** but it seems like people forget that the pm staff does this is all for almost nothing.

 

[shairn]

Opinions differ wildly

 

[Sour Supreme]

The AI has it's downfall. But there's no use in a rant. As already stated, AI is a hard thing to improve. Hell, they've done amazing so far. PM's current AI is the best there's ever been. Sure, I've noticed that they still SD on occasion, or dash dance when they could be shoving their fist down my 165% damaged throat. but these AI's are actually very good in contrast to the AI's of the past. Be greatful, not hateful.

 

[EpicFlyingTaco]

Do you seriously have any understanding of hard it is to code ai?
King clubber has done a SOLO job of coding the ai it's amazing how much he has done for FREE it's very very very very impressive

If you want advice start playing on netplay on your computer if you have no one human to play with

This topic is so disrespectful if you think you can do it better do it yourself. King clubber puts hundreds of hours of hard work into the ai in a free project. He could be devoting his valuable skills to a completely diffrent thing and making a profit of it.

He shouldn't even have to look at garabage topics like this. Sorry for being a **** but it seems like people forget that the pm staff does this is all for almost nothing.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I didn't know only one person was working on the AI, and considering only one person is doing so, he's done a pretty good job. I never said I could do it better myself. I apologize

That being said, I feel like more people should be working on the AI then just one, because AI opponents are actually a pretty good training tool.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

AI are a horrible training tool. AI is useful only in practicing combos, and even in that AI has limited uses. Playing against another player with the ability to learn actively during a match is 95% of the game. Unless you want to get a bunch of bad habits from playing against predictable AI, you're better off not fighting them for experience.

 

[Pluid]

While we're on the topic, what's the most ideal CPU level to play against if you have nobody to play with and want to practice?

 

[9bit]

I think I read that level 7's will DI randomly, so that's something that could be helpful for practicing.

When I don't have anyone to play with I just go into Training Mode and have them set to do nothing. Then I can practice random tech skill and timings and things.

 

[Rongunshu]

*gasp* Hey look, an opinion! Let`s get mad about it, that always seems to work! But seriously,at least they tried to implement melee tech with the wave dashing and L-cancelling and such. I think they executed it pretty well as the CPU for Marth can actually Ken combo you. I`d say it`s good, but needs a lot of polishing.

 

[Fortress]

While we're on the topic, what's the most ideal CPU level to play against if you have nobody to play with and want to practice?

Generally 3 or 4. They know enough to DI your moves and make you work for your setups and follow-ups, but not enough to register your inputs immediately.

 

[Deleted member]

i ****ing loathe the AI in this game. can not express my hatred into words adequately. i literally have to practice melee rather than PM to get better at PM solely because the AI is **** **** piss **** ass ******

 

[Player -0]

i ****ing loathe the AI in this game. can not express my hatred into words adequately. i literally have to practice melee rather than PM to get better at PM solely because the AI is **** **** piss **** *** ******

Lolololoololol, Perfect shields 2gud.

 

[Deleted member]

perfect shields, perfect air dodges, random triple smash DI, reactive hard reads, and god-stocks. the list just keeps going.

 

[Fortress]

perfect shields, perfect air dodges, random triple smash DI, reactive hard reads, and god-stocks. the list just keeps going.

"Okay, just going to finish off this neat combo I've been working on against this level 3 Mario and, wait, what? Mario decided to go ****ing Reggie Mode and quadruple-RAR-Wavedash pivot-walk > F-smash me on last stock? The ****."

Mario's AI is a ****ing douche when it wants to be.

 

[Player -0]

Mario AI confirmed to be Isai level of sandbag.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario's AI is a ****ing douche when it wants to be.

in my exp mario TL and ness are the worst 3, so yeah.

 

[HRR2b23]

One night when a few friends of mine were bored, we ran a CPU only tournament. Zelda like....7 stocked the entire cast (2matches of 4)

 

[Fortress]

Turbo Zelda at level nine is pretty rough as far as AI goes.

 

[chaosscizzors]

i'd be happy with the current AI if it would just stop SDing. PM's AI SDs like every single chance it gets. it's not even worth playing against a bot cause you wont actually get to fight it for most of the match and it's over in a minute.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Their powershield are pretty ****ing ridiculous, noticing it now more than ever since I've been playing against CPUs almost exclusively for the past few weeks.

 

[KingClubber]

@ EpicFlyingTaco


Why does PM AI suck?


There are many answers to that, 85% of the code is still ran by brawl’s code, PM is always changing so when something i’ve worked on has been changed, or is running on brawl code and the change doesn’t apply to the written code the AI doesn’t correct itself, because they don’t learn. I’m Lazy, and mostly code by myself.


Punishing and Platforms


AI don’t understand punishing, it understands “If they do that, i do this” but that doesn’t always work because smash has a lot of freedom to cause error. And AI also don’t know what a platform is really, they think of them as a part of the stage. Which is why i only focus on working on them with tournament viable stages.


Technical skill vs SD’s


Still trying to fix this, hard because each character is meaning i have to start over after fixing another, gets annoying and boring very fast. The only reason this isn’t a focus is because i trying to get more things done, progress can’t be put on hold just to fix this.

Problems with AI


Make a list of things you’d like to see changed, but don’t expect for them to be fixed in the next version, I’m working on something else that flips 90% of the code in my favor instead of brawl’s code, the PMBR really enjoyed that 20XX Fox even with it’s flaws, because for once it feels like you’re playing a real play, and not really a Cpu.


@ PMS | Tink-er


Tell that to Armada


@Umbreon


Yes, Yes, I know of your hatred, why don’t you write me a list of everything and we can go over everything together


-


I’m thinking of doing another project for you guys, but i really don’t feel like wasting time explaining everything like last time. So i guess i’m going to to give you a choice.


Marth, Roy, or Ike.

 

[red9rd]

Roy!!!!!!!!!

 

[arcticfox8]

We like Ike
No exceptions

 

[shairn]

Marth, of course.

 

[arcticfox8]

We suck at voting

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Roy's our boiiiiiiiiiii. Yeah dawg, yeah dawg, yeah dawg!

 

[yogurtgun1245]

More Marth.

 

[Paradoxium]

you should make a 20XX pikachu AI, who does every type of quick attack cancel known o man

 

[Rᴏb]

Marth, Roy, or Ike.

Go with Marth. He's the second most used character in tournaments, so practicing against a decent Marth cpu would be useful.

 

[KingClubber]

Marth leading so far, no i'm not doing pikachu.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Probably a safe bet to say that for every move, there should be a chance that the CPU DI's completely randomly. Some moves the CPUs will only ever DI one particular way, so adding a random chance of random DI could help alleviate how free followups are on them sometimes.

 

[KingClubber]

The way AI was coded, they would DI in the best Direction, but it may not be coded in the best possible way to survive.

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon

Yes, Yes, I know of your hatred, why don’t you write me a list of everything and we can go over everything together.

IMO just remove the powershielding 70% of the attacks thing, the impossible DI, and Now You Must Die mode.

 

[KingClubber]

all i can read from this is 'i don't wanna help fix the problems i have with the ai that i don't like.'

got give me something better than percentage, and clever titles.

 

[Fortress]

all i can read from this is 'i don't wanna help fix the problems i have with the ai that i don't like.'

got give me something better than percentage, and clever titles.

If I can be so bold as to throw out a couple of things that I think could improve the experience...

-Improving recoveries, if possible?

I understand making Link whip out a bomb each time he's hit hard enough to be off-stage, AGT up, and spin attack into it would probably be too hard, but what about along the lines of, say, Mario? Have him cape in a couple of times, use Down-B, and then up-B, instead of just using up-B from a mile away? His is a simple enough recovery game that (to me, I know actually making it happen must be hell in a handbasket) wouldn't seem too difficult to implement. Making him wall jump out of Up-B would also be neat-o. Ditto for Luigi, sans wall jumping.

Puff noticeably side-B > jump into the ledge over and over for about a minute before she runs out and just dies anyway. Maybe making her grab the ledge way sooner? I dunno. Again, your field of expertise, not mine.

Making the Links pull out bomb > AGT > tether? I feel like that'd be easier to implement than the bomb recovery with spin attacks.

And so on, and so on. I guess the gist of that is that it'd be better practice against real recovery techniques, instead of getting a free stock the moment the opponent is off the stage.

-Dash-dancing opponents?

Seems that Marth likes to sit there and just mash jab among examples of good dash dancers. I dunno, just a simplish thing to implement. Bot randomly goes into dash dance into a grab or attack.

-Bots that ledgeguard me?

Bleh. I don't even have anything worthwhile to say at this point. Most of this jank are just a bunch of pipe dreams that are way harder to make happen than they sound. Just having the CPU come out off-stage now and again, like a Falco D-air, or a Link B-air > Jump > B-air, and bots occasionally taking the ledge to hog it.

 

[KingClubber]

Bomb-Jump+Tether
-Been there, done that, i can try to add the tether

Mario/Weegee Recovery
-Tried it, its harder than you imagine

Jiggs Recovery
-Sounds good

Dash Dance Stuff
-Working on it

Ledge Guarding
-Meet the Sheik [WIP]

That project was mostly dropped, as people lost interest fast.

So i went back to doing what I've always been doing.

So for those who have been waiting on it here's a present.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/uhg95wdj9ctbwdb/FitSheikMotionEtc.pac

List of things that are different
-Removed a Bunch of Random Actions like Jumping, Rolling, and Shielding
-Fix Recovery (WIP)
-New Ledge Game (WIP)
-New Ledge Guard Game (WIP)
-Beta Combo system
-Attacking While Recovering

Enjoy.

=~|<•>|~=

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Wow you definitely put a lot of time into trying to improve the a.i . The only suggestion I could come up with is making a couple of the frequent tourney a.i really good, such as fox(most used). This means just focusing on that CPU's ability to edge guard recover combo dash dance etc. I realize you are mostly working on hot fixes like the sd'ing now, but it seems like way too much of a task for one person to have. and creating 1-4 supercomp a.i appears to be an easier task then trying to improve on all of them seperately equally overtime. Suggested computers( sheik , fox , marth) since their recoveries are relatively linear, their playstyles are drastically different, and they each can assist in learning combo d.I for those that missed melee. This seems like the best option cause it also leaves the more beginner a.I as options for newer players
(And for those who say the a.I in pm are worse, how many matches on 1st page stages have you won by staying completely still?) http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7p-zMdpVTq0

 

[KingClubber]

Maybe for whatever comes out in the future, right i just wanna do something on the side for you guys.
But the votes haven't gone up.

Marth-3
Roy-2
Ike-1

Only 6 votes. Seven if ya count pikachu

Does it end here?