Why Custom Singles should be a side event.

[Zorai]

I'm sure as this game gets older more and more people are going to agree with me and see things for how they really are.

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, not fancy and ambiguous setups. We aren't playing Marvel.

Custom singles just can't be the main event for this game for many reasons, but before I go on listing them, I want to hear what you guys think. What are your actual opinions after several months with customs on?

To give a very short summary: Matchups are changed too drastically. Everything you practice for in a matchup gets thrown out the window once you sit down in a tournament setting and play your opponent. You might not even be able to make an accurate character decision because you are unaware of your opponent's kit or you don't know what to expect. That's how big of a difference customs make.

Guess what, a year or two from now when everyone knows everything there is to know about customs, they won't be so hot anymore because people will be too focused on gimmicky play instead of actually knowing how to play the game...

Then there's moveset abuse. We've already seen plenty of this and it's only been a few months. All of the Mii fighters and Palutenas pulling off ******** **** isn't exactly what I call 'balanced' lmfao. If you want balanced, play the game the way it's meant to be played and rely on future patches. Customs are just way too gimmicky and even if you exclude those two examples, characters who are already A tier are made even better with customs, such as Sonic, while other A tiers benefit next to nothing whatsoever, such as Wario.

This game is already fairly balanced and above all it's unexplored. Having customs on is just further stunting this game's growth. Smash always has been and always will be a game of outsmarting your opponent. Customs is just taking that away from us, especially since this game is so young..

By making custom singles a side event you have the best of both worlds and custom fanboys really can't complain..

 

[COLINBG]

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, not fancy and ambiguous setups. We aren't playing Marvel.

It's about both. That's what makes smash smash.

Custom singles just can't be the main event for this game for many reasons, but before I go on listing them, I want to hear what you guys think. What are your actual opinions after several months with customs on?

Looks promising so far.

To give a very short summary: Matchups are changed too drastically. Everything you practice for in a matchup gets thrown out the window once you sit down in a tournament setting and play your opponent. You might not even be able to make an accurate character decision because you are unaware of your opponent's kit or you don't know what to expect. That's how big of a difference customs make.

It's been a few months. It was the same when the game came out and we played with defaults. We had to adapt from Project M/ Brawl and everything was completely different. We did it, though. Give it some time.

Guess what, a year or two from now when everyone knows everything there is to know about customs, they won't be so hot anymore because people will be too focused on gimmicky play instead of actually knowing how to play the game...

This is contradicting what you said just before. Anyway, could you elaborate? Why would it be more gimmicky? They won't be so hot, but they will still offer more diversity than now.

Then there's moveset abuse. We've already seen plenty of this and it's only been a few months. All of the Mii fighters and Palutenas pulling off ******** **** isn't exactly what I call 'balanced' lmfao. If you want balanced, play the game the way it's meant to be played and rely on future patches. Customs are just way too gimmicky and even if you exclude those two examples, characters who are already A tier are made even better with customs, such as Sonic, while other A tiers benefit next to nothing whatsoever, such as Wario.

Miis and Palutena are in no way broken or unfair or whatever because of customs. They are just generally better and now have a chance in competitive play. Again, why is it gimmicky? The random useless customs won't be used anyway, and all we'll be left with are the solid, good customs. Yes some high tier characters are made better, but almost no character gets worse because of them, so verything is still as balanced. There's actually more ''bad'' characters made viable than ''good'' characters made slightly better.

This game is already fairly balanced and above all it's unexplored. Having customs on is just further stunting this game's growth. Smash always has been and always will be a game of outsmarting your opponent. Customs is just taking that away from us, especially since this game is so young..

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know unless we try. I agree it is already balanced as it is, but why not test with the customs? If it's even more balanced, then nice, we have a better, more fun game. If we realise they are broken after real testing (instead of theorycrafting), then we'll simply let them go. We don't really have anything to lose. Customs don't mean we have to stop playing vanilla smash. It will always stay an option. Trying customs can, at worst, turn ****ty this year's EVO, then we go back to default.

 

[Antunee]

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, not fancy and ambiguous setups. We aren't playing Marvel.

Who determines what Smash is about? Besides that, what is ambiguous? There are 11 generally agreed upon, pre-determined sets for each character. You are the only one to blame for not knowing these sets.

Guess what, a year or two from now when everyone knows everything there is to know about customs, they won't be so hot anymore because people will be too focused on gimmicky play instead of actually knowing how to play the game...

I don't even understand what you are saying. Are you trying to say that people will only be using the good customs? I don't see how that detracts from playing the game. It's the same with low tier characters rarely being used.

If you want balanced, play the game the way it's meant to be played and rely on future patches.

Meant to be played according to whom? Sakurai? If that's what you mean, I guess it's flat stages only and four-player free-for all. Also, no miis.

Having customs on is just further stunting this game's growth. Smash always has been and always will be a game of outsmarting your opponent. Customs is just taking that away from us, especially since this game is so young..

More options to explore = less growth? More matchups to understand = less intelligence needed? Gotcha.

 

[Thundering TNT]

Just gonna reply to this one art.

play the game the way it's meant to be played

The thing about smash is that there is no "way it's meant to be played." There are o many option in this game for customizing the way that it's played for the sole reason that everyone can play however they like. I can play 1 on 1,on hazardless stages, without items, and customs on, while someone else can play with 8 people, with only the craziest stages, items on , and customs off, and we'd both be playing it "the way it was meant to be played." And even then, Sakurai is openly against the game being plaed n a competitive way, so if there were a "correct" way to ply the game "as it was intended" then a casual person with items on and crazy stages is closer to being the one that's "playing the ame the way it's meant to be played," so this argument is just wrong entirely.

 

[Zorai]

People wanted to implement customs to increase diversity but it's obviously gone too off track and it's just generally too drastic of a change to make so early in the game's life.

Of course you won't find this shocking if you're pro customs but you have to analyze why you're pro customs when the game's meta is so undeveloped.

Don't get me wrong the idea of customs is great and it's already been done, but it needs to AT LEAST remain as a side event for now... But the main event?? Come on, there's like 50 characters we don't know anything about and we're getting people to learn gimmicks instead.

The primary event should always be vanilla smash, I just want people to recognize this. Side events can be customs for all I care but we need to stick to our roots and I want to hear some unbiased opinions

 

[Thundering TNT]

The primary event should always be vanilla smash,

According to who, you?

and I want to hear some unbiased opinions

and by "unbiased" you mean "agrees with mine," right?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, not fancy and ambiguous setups. We aren't playing Marvel.

There's nothing "ambiguous" about customs.

Unless you're just too lazy to learn them.

 

[Mario766]

How is Custom Smash anything like Marvel.

Marvel is about massive combos and characters who are DESIGNED to touch to death the opponents and lead into 50/50 set-ups through landing traps.

You get a 50/50 or a DI trap in Smash leading to a kill move, otherwise you're back in the neutral or are in a spacing war ala footies in Street Fighter. You almost NEVER are in neutral in Marvel because you keep going in and out of advantage/disadvantage which usually leads into either a dropped combo, or a kill. You don't GET that in Smash 4. You drop a combo in Smash 4 and you lose some percent, MAYBE a kill. You drop a combo in Marvel? Your character likely dies.

You see crazy things like Palutena doing a combo on Halberd which killed super early? Two things.

1) It's Halberd
2) That isn't EVEN A COMBO. Zero just did nothing and ate the up air.

The closest thing to a 50/50 kill set-up in Smash 4 from 0 would be ZSS on Battlefield, but it requires not only really good movement from the ZSS, but also bad DI from the enemy and VERY specific match-ups.

 

[COLINBG]

People wanted to implement customs to increase diversity but it's obviously gone too off track and it's just generally too drastic of a change to make so early in the game's life.

Of course you won't find this shocking if you're pro customs but you have to analyze why you're pro customs when the game's meta is so undeveloped.

Don't get me wrong the idea of customs is great and it's already been done, but it needs to AT LEAST remain as a side event for now... But the main event?? Come on, there's like 50 characters we don't know anything about and we're getting people to learn gimmicks instead.

The primary event should always be vanilla smash, I just want people to recognize this. Side events can be customs for all I care but we need to stick to our roots and I want to hear some unbiased opinions

If we implement customs later, we'll be too aclimated to vanilla smash, and the transition will be hard to do. Doing it early in the game (like from the start) is kinda stupid in my opinion. Right now is the right moment. We're no strangers to the game mechanics/characters now, but we can still learn new moves since the game is fairly recent and we're not too accustomed to vanilla smash for it to be a hard thing to do. It's not particularly a bad moment to try customs.

If you don't know anything about the 49 characters, I'd say it's your fault. You had months. And if you want to be competitive, you have to put the time and effort into it, which means learning the characters and the MUs.

However, I still agree with you that vanilla smash should be the ''main smash''. I'm 100% pro-customs, and I'd love to have (big) tournaments with them on, but I still feel like they are a complement to the game, and smash with the default moves is the ''real smash''. I wouldn't even mind if they became the norm, as long as vanilla retained its legitimacy. Just like how people played Project M, but Brawl was still the ''real'' game, and was still somewhat active.

 

[Antunee]

People wanted to implement customs to increase diversity but it's obviously gone too off track and it's just generally too drastic of a change to make so early in the game's life.

That's a major idea I don't think is being completely understand. Customs aren't being "added." They're already in the game. The way to make a game competitive isn't to strip the game down and add what you consider to be the most balanced. Instead, everything needs to be laid out on the table, and only the parts can be considered unfair or luck-based need to be removed.

Of course you won't find this shocking if you're pro customs but you have to analyze why you're pro customs when the game's meta is so undeveloped.

^See above.

Come on, there's like 50 characters we don't know anything about and we're getting people to learn gimmicks instead.

Why are customs gimmicks? Can you at least explain that.

The primary event should always be vanilla smash, I just want people to recognize this. Side events can be customs for all I care but we need to stick to our roots and I want to hear some unbiased opinions

Unbiased opinions don't exist. That's the point of opinions. If you mean sound reasoning or logic, I think plenty of replies have given you just that.

 

[Zorai]

I really wish people who joined in 2014/2015 would stop replying to my thread roflmao

You can know everything about customs there is to know, that's not the issue. I just don't understand why it's standardized already lol. It's almost like the game wasn't good enough. Customs just seems more fitting as a side event. Maybe there should be a community poll or something

@ COLINBG That's exactly what I'm saying

 

[Djent]

Custom singles just can't be the main event for this game for many reasons, but before I go on listing them, I want to hear what you guys think. What are your actual opinions after several months with customs on?

You know a thread's off to a bad start when the OP tells you to respond before reading the full post.

 

[John12346]

I really wish people who joined in 2014/2015 would stop replying to my thread roflmao

Uh... Okay, I agree with pretty much everything that was stated in favor of customs in this thread. I'll probably hop in with arguments and such from here on in, I suppose.

Maybe there should be a community poll or something

There have already been THREE of them, all of which have resulted in well over 80% of respondees in favor of customs over *I think* thousands of responses. I can go and find them if you really want me to, although it'll be a bit of a hassle. Up to you...

You're welcome to do another, if you so desire, but there is definitely little doubt the results are going to change.

 

[Thundering TNT]

I really wish people who joined in 2014/2015 would stop replying to my thread roflmao

"I can't think of a vaid response to their arguments, so I'll disregard them with the excuse of 'they haven't been members on this site long enough to have an argument'"

 

[S_B]

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, even with fancy and ambiguous setups.

Fixed.

[/thread]

PS. Luigi in SSB64 is Mario with different customs.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd pretty much disagree with every single thing in the OP. Following more or less in order:

Fancy setups have no place, only the good ones will last as we learn them.

There's nothing ambiguous about them unless you deliberately defy or obfuscate the established systems that Ampharos and everyone else pro-customs has gone out of their way to develop.

At most, four moves get thrown out the window, and replaced with at most one of two alternative choices. Virtually the only exception to this is Palutena, as she gains some much needed by all evidence increased potential added to her normals by means of Lightweight and Superspeed.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "gimmicky play." If Falcon Punch moving me forward (compared to past games) is gimmicky but Cfalc's utilt now having a spike hitbox (a property drawn from Minus of all things) isn't, then I'm really not sure what you hope to accomplish by throwing the phrase around. Also, no "gimmick" has yet proven stronger than Diddy.

What's more "******** ****" about Superspeed or Brawler than Diddy killing at 80 from a down-throw and Sheik being unpunishable on almost every move? Moreover, if Palutena and Miis are so utterly nonsense, why aren't our tournaments flooded with them?

If it's too early to call the game explored, it's certainly too early to call tiers into question. It's especially too early to say the A-ranks get even better when it's still the S-ranks winning constantly (also, Wario benefits nicely from customs, please do your research).

The game is certainly "more balanced" than any past Smash game. But there's still a massive gap between Diddy/Sheik and, say, Ike or Ganondorf. And there's no current evidence really suggesting that even with customs, Ike or Ganondorf can take on a Sheik or Diddy. Because Specials don't dominate the game, at all.

And how does adding customs at all influence the need to outsmart my opponent? If my opponent is stupid enough to spam his one custom because he thinks it'll give him an easy win, then I'll use the fact that I've learned the game with customs on to abuse his idiocy and take my free win.

As for standardizing them so soon, why are stagelists, picking order, striking, stocks, and time, all being standardized so quickly? The answer: Because they're a useful part of the game that affects how players interact, and should be standardized for the sake of a more interesting game.

<s>Alternately, we could reduce our stagelist to Final Destination and set matches to one stock two minutes, since we don't want people relying on gimmicks like platforms and having multiple lives per match.</s>

Also, I laugh at this.

I really wish people who joined in 2014/2015 would stop replying to my thread roflmao

Because a player, regardless of Smash skill, who has a label indicated that they didn't decide to start participating in one of several online communities for the game, until several months before the game being discussed was released (applies to most of the respondents in this thread), obviously can't have valid opinions, but our glorious OP from 2008 is wise as shown by his years.

Truly fascinating.

 

[AnchorTea]

"This game should cater to what I want."

 

[Helkulkhamen]

I find the whole OP a poor-but-typical argument against customs. Going through it step by step:

I'm sure as this game gets older more and more people are going to agree with me and see things for how they really are.

This is pure conjecture on your part and, given the overwhelmingly positive response to custom events (minus a very vocal minority), almost certainly wrong.

Smash is about outplaying your opponent, not fancy and ambiguous setups. We aren't playing Marvel.

To give a very short summary: Matchups are changed too drastically. Everything you practice for in a matchup gets thrown out the window once you sit down in a tournament setting and play your opponent. You might not even be able to make an accurate character decision because you are unaware of your opponent's kit or you don't know what to expect. That's how big of a difference customs make.

Smash is about outplaying your opponent. Period. Pre-match mind games are just as fair game as the moves you make during the match. If you know your opponent is less familiar with a particular stage and he lets you pick that stage, you outplayed your opponent. If your opponent is less familiar fighting against a particular character and you pick that character to capitalize on their weakness, you outplayed your opponent. If your opponent is not familiar with what to do against a certain combo, and you go out of your way to use that particular combo on them, you outplayed your opponent. If your opponent is not familiar with the properties of a certain move, and you anticipate that and capitalize on their unfamiliarity, then you just outplayed your opponent.

Guess what, a year or two from now when everyone knows everything there is to know about customs, they won't be so hot anymore because people will be too focused on gimmicky play instead of actually knowing how to play the game...

This is such a loaded statement. You are implying that all custom moves are only good for fool-me-once gimmicks that only work if your opponent is unfamiliar with them and that after people do become more knowledgeable they'll be useless. That is an absurd position, since even when your opponents are familiar with your custom moves, a lot of them are still worth using.

Then there's moveset abuse. We've already seen plenty of this and it's only been a few months. All of the Mii fighters and Palutenas pulling off ******** **** isn't exactly what I call 'balanced' lmfao. If you want balanced, play the game the way it's meant to be played and rely on future patches. Customs are just way too gimmicky and even if you exclude those two examples, characters who are already A tier are made even better with customs, such as Sonic, while other A tiers benefit next to nothing whatsoever, such as Wario.

More characters having unique strengths and a good shot at winning a tournament is exactly what I call "balance". Have you seen characters like Palutena and the Miis try to compete without customs? Because it isn't pretty for them - they really do need the boost. Also, "abuse" could mean any number of things. The smart players use the word to describe options that are so absurdly good and so difficult to deal with on the opponent's end that there is almost no reason to do anything else ever, which none of the custom moves have turned out to be. The scrubby players use the word as a code for "I wasn't skilled enough to deal with this good option my opponent had". If the first scenario were true (custom moves genuinely are too good) then everyone would be using them and winning, and we'd expect to see complete no-name players beating the best players just by using overpowered options. Instead, the top players in non-customs are still dominating, and a lot of characters like to only swap out some of their default moves (heck, the widely-regarded best character Diddy barely uses customs). Furthermore, characters who do want to swap defaults for as many custom moves as they can get have not been dominating tournaments. At best, they've been giving the existing high tiers a run for their money. None of the characters you mentioned have proven too difficult to beat so far.

This game is already fairly balanced and above all it's unexplored. Having customs on is just further stunting this game's growth. Smash always has been and always will be a game of outsmarting your opponent. Customs is just taking that away from us, especially since this game is so young..

I agree that the game is still unexplored. But how the heck is giving players more options to explore "stunting" the game's growth? How the heck is giving players more options reducing their room to outsmart their opponent? If anything, it's giving more room for exploration and outplaying your opponent.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I really wish people who joined in 2014/2015 would stop replying to my thread roflmao

....And why exactly?....

 

[AnchorTea]

....And why exactly?....

He thinks the more "Elderly" Smashboards users are "Smarter".

(Which obviously isn't true...)

 

[Hippieslayer]

People wanted to implement customs to increase diversity but it's obviously gone too off track and it's just generally too drastic of a change to make so early in the game's life.

Of course you won't find this shocking if you're pro customs but you have to analyze why you're pro customs when the game's meta is so undeveloped.

Don't get me wrong the idea of customs is great and it's already been done, but it needs to AT LEAST remain as a side event for now... But the main event?? Come on, there's like 50 characters we don't know anything about and we're getting people to learn gimmicks instead.

The primary event should always be vanilla smash, I just want people to recognize this. Side events can be customs for all I care but we need to stick to our roots and I want to hear some unbiased opinions

Why has it gone too off track? How come you can tell this right now? Do you have super powers which lets you see the future development of the meta? Speaking of analyzing. I analyzed your posts and there is no actual content in them which isn't factually wrong, the rest of it is all fallacies, different kind of appeals, such as "stick to your roots" ergo appeal to tradition. You seem to have a penchant for not having a clue. Not strange you'd also feel the need to tell people who are newly registered not to reply. All of your arguments are the same old anti-customs bs we've been seeing now for quite some time. What exactly made you decide to make this thread again?

 

[TriTails]

....And why exactly?....

Because the common knowledge is 'people who join earlier are more experienced' and 'people who join later are the scrubs and don't know anything they say AKA less experienced'.

Though, I wouldn't call myself experienced... I'm offended, for some reason. Don't ask.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Play smash the way it was meant to be played?
So 4 players, items on and on temple with .5 knockback.

Awwwww yeah just like my melee days before going competitive in 05.