Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[DavemanCozy]

Just a note. 0-49%: You can bike through PK Fire.

50>% You can't.

Is the % on Wario, or on Ness? I.e., Wario at 50>% or Ness at 50>%?

I've done it before against Atlas and other Ness mains in Ontario, and I know the armor bike has can also tank through Shiek's rapid jabs at around this %, but I'm not sure who it has to be on.

Edit: Axel311 Bite does not beat his Falcon Kick nor Raptor Boost, I've never tried catching a Falcon Dive nor Punch either since there's usually something better to do. With the former, however, you can chomp Falcon before the hitbox comes out should you be close enough to him.

BTW, you can also use Dash Attack near the ledge against Falcon if he is recovering low. The same thing applies for Ness. The tripbox will hit them before they snap to the ledge and send them down, which in this case you can B-air stage spike them, waft below stage, etc.

 

[lbrasz44]

Percentage should be on Ness as rage kicks in

edit: nevermind haha

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Edit: Axel311 Bite does not beat his Falcon Kick nor Raptor Boost, I've never tried catching a Falcon Dive nor Punch either since there's usually something better to do. With the former, however, you can chomp Falcon before the hitbox comes out should you be close enough to him..

It does beat Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost. You only have to space right before you bite.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Fair enough

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

WRECK-IT MUNDO , I couldn't help but notice your match against a peach. This is a match-up I've been interested in for a while, what do you think about it, just curious? PM me if you don't want to dilute the falcon, ness convo.

 

[ElDood]

Is the % on Wario, or on Ness? I.e., Wario at 50>% or Ness at 50>%?

Wario at 50%. Ness's Percentage doesn't matter.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

WRECK-IT MUNDO , I couldn't help but notice your match against a peach. This is a match-up I've been interested in for a while, what do you think about it, just curious? PM me if you don't want to dilute the falcon, ness convo.

It's a very scary/underrated one! You must play with patient and time your actions right as Wario or else Peach will hurt you instead of hurting Her.
This Peach player (Meru) knows what he's doing as Peach and he can almost always hit all of his combo's that Peach can do. (Good Thing that the vegetables are not a problem for Wario) Bike as a move or Item against Peach will almost always hold Peach's momentum and gives Wario a great opportunity to strike (back) or grab. Speaking of grabs... Peach's D-throw combo's are insane! It can give like ~40~%? I highly suggest to avoid her grab before 60%ish.
Thanks to her floaty-ness, Wario is also able to combo her (Like D-tilt to Ftilt at Kill %.)

For recovering against Peach: Avoid most of the time recovering in the center. Try recover High or Low (depends where peach is floating/standing) and you'll be fine.

It's indeed a very interesting MU.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Good stuff. I might suggest trying to DI her down-throw behind her as I used to get hit by her afterwards, I'm pretty sure if you do that and jump=no follow up for her. For her d-air pre-patch you could Up-B her after the attack ended, but I haven't checked if shield stun affected this. If you get hit by that move, you will get f-aired guaranteed and so I always just wait it out and roll behind her afterwards. Also, I've seen peaches up-throw and charge up-smash as you air-dodge or fall with an attack, you really can't punish them at the position you're in no matter how much you want to. Airdodging her throws and d-tilt is usually a no-no. I'm not sure if d-tilt to f-tilt is guaranteed on peach as I haven't tried it, but it sounds like it could possible not work only because peach can buffer a command before she hits the ground at high percents usually.

 

[WarioWaft]

Uh. I played a fantastic Cap online like 15 matches in a row. Slight lag, but every match was competitive, his dash is so cheesy. I can chomp the Falcon kick, raptor, but the one move i can is the dash.

Also, Cap's jabs are so cheesy. Can't get anywhere close to him because the jabs.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Good stuff. I might suggest trying to DI her down-throw behind her as I used to get hit by her afterwards, I'm pretty sure if you do that and jump=no follow up for her. For her d-air pre-patch you could Up-B her after the attack ended, but I haven't checked if shield stun affected this. If you get hit by that move, you will get f-aired guaranteed and so I always just wait it out and roll behind her afterwards. Also, I've seen peaches up-throw and charge up-smash as you air-dodge or fall with an attack, you really can't punish them at the position you're in no matter how much you want to. Airdodging her throws and d-tilt is usually a no-no. I'm not sure if d-tilt to f-tilt is guaranteed on peach as I haven't tried it, but it sounds like it could possible not work only because peach can buffer a command before she hits the ground at high percents usually.

DI'ing is indeed very important (D-throw), but even if I DI away, Peach can still hit me early %! Maybe it's still possible to Up B after her D-air, but you have to be sure she doesn't use FF Nair or an another one now. This is a match-up where you can't always approach in general and if you want to approach, Bike is your only homie for this but don't let Peach know that your ready for the bike or else you'll be in trouble. Playing Safe is the key.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

DI'ing is indeed very important (D-throw), but even if I DI away, Peach can still hit me early %! Maybe it's still possible to Up B after her D-air, but you have to be sure she doesn't use FF Nair or an another one now. This is a match-up where you can't always approach in general and if you want to approach, Bike is your only homie for this but don't let Peach know that your ready for the bike or else you'll be in trouble. Playing Safe is the key.

I think you're right, the peach I fight always goes for d-air to f-air at the beginning of every match, so maybe peach does get a guaranteed combo but I just never see it. I made a gigantic post on countering peach's d-air as little mac (http://smashboards.com/threads/essential-knowledge-for-fighting-against-peach.418058/) Recalculating everything for Wario with the new shieldstun, you seem to only get 1 frame to use your up-b out of shield to punish, if you aren't frame perfect you will lose or trade. Bike is really good and in my experience, sh-bair works really well too as long as you retreat (i should try full hop b-airs tho), and going in for a f-air when you've convinced them you're not approaching can tack on a bit of damage and possibly lead to follow ups at high percents.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

I think you're right, the peach I fight always goes for d-air to f-air at the beginning of every match, so maybe peach does get a guaranteed combo but I just never see it. I made a gigantic post on countering peach's d-air as little mac (http://smashboards.com/threads/essential-knowledge-for-fighting-against-peach.418058/) Recalculating everything for Wario with the new shieldstun, you seem to only get 1 frame to use your up-b out of shield to punish, if you aren't frame perfect you will lose or trade. Bike is really good and in my experience, sh-bair works really well too as long as you retreat (i should try full hop b-airs tho), and going in for a f-air when you've convinced them you're not approaching can tack on a bit of damage and possibly lead to follow ups at high percents.

Interesting article you got there m8. I'll play soon enough some friendlies and/or sets against the same Peach and I will see what I can dig up! I'll let you know if I got more info!

 

[Waymas]

What MU's should we move next?

 

[lbrasz44]

I'm interested in learning how Wario matches up against either Megaman or Pacman. Or as the past couple people have started talking about, may as well continue on with Peach

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

How about adding Meta Knight?

 

[Axel311]

What MU's should we move next?

Very interested in talking about because of the Reflex/Ryo set that just went down at top 8 of MLG.

The thread hasn't had too much discussion on wario vrs. zoning characters. I'm very interested in how wario plays against some heavy zoner types, specifically in that order. Personally I'm still trying to figure out how to play better with Wario when getting camped.

Other relevant matchups I really want to see discussed are .

I'd be really happy with any of those, but really want to see Ike discussed the most.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Axel311 The thing about discussing Wario vs. Ike is that the responses will probably look like this:

New players will think Ike wins because he has a disjoint and all new players who play a character who directly struggles with disjoints (i.e. Wario) will tend to lose. It's why all my friends and brother growing up played Ike in brawl. He could space and was powerful, and to bad players, his speed hardly made any difference. I am not saying Wario must struggle against all or any characters with big disjoints.

Better Wario's will probably say Wario wins because better players or players who think they're good tend to say their character wins match-ups that seem to be questionable on both sides. I asked Ryo if he'd ever played Reflex before in smash 4 specifically before MLG and he said no, so he probably had no Wario practice outside of me playing against him in doubles at our weeklies, whereas Reflex probably labbed the Ike MU a bit, because he labs everyone lol.

The match-up gets better for Wario when transitioning from a beginner to intermediate level, and at a high level the result being 3-2 shows that it appears to be even.

A lot of people don't know how grab-centric and reliant on n-air Ike is in neutral. This could throw new players off who are trying to play Wario who virtually is 80%+ punish game and <20% neutral game which by itself is like 30-70% baiting and conditioning, but I think most would agree it's not particularly hard to approach Ike like it is Peach, isn't that right LordFreezyPops42 ? xD

 

[LordFreezyPops42]

How do I fight Peach?

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Ok LordFreezyPops42 , when I first started fighting Saj he consistently 2 stocked me and I won 0% percent of our friendlies. I then started using a run, camp, and bike toss approach which works very well, but I told Saj about it, and now it's a mix-up over whether or not he n-airs on time to break the bike. Bike to Waft is one of the only true ways you're going to get a waft on Peach, D-air to waft might be possible, but I promise you it's not worth going for because Peach's U-smash does insane amounts of KB and has killed me multiple times for trying to be greedy and punish her. There have been multiple times where she's hit me, I've jumped and tried to land with d-air only to get u-smashed. After fighting Saj, I literally never fast fall d-air against any character unless they're in the air. You can't punish Peach because of her absurd frame data and falling speed which is why I think It's Wario's 2nd or 3rd or 4th worst MU in the game along with Mario and some others. It was a bad MU in brawl and Peach has received significant buffs including a larger F-air hitbox, longer floating time, a lagless Side-b on shield, and I believe the increased shieldstun made her insanely safe on shield. I've probably labbed peach, Ike, Mario, and Little Mac the most in this game, so I'm not kidding you when I say she is safe. If she d-airs your shield, You better roll in front of her or sh n-air (and that's being greedy tbh), if you roll behind she can b-air you which is a kill move and is faster than f-air. Wario used to be able to up-b oos but with the shieldstun patch you can't (you can but you only get 1 frame). You cannot f-air her at low percents because she can n-air immediately before you getting any real follow-up for a nasty 7 to 13% trade. Chomp is ok if she's grounded but if you miss you're getting b****slapped in the face, I never go for it. I can only win like 20-25% of our friendlies at best and this was when I camped hard which I don't like to do anymore, probably why I lost to the same olimar twice at STR xD. Sh-bair is really good because of it's speed outclassing Peach's F-air. I do use f-air a lot but I always fade away because of her n-air. I've gotten F-air to waft before on another Peach but i'll never commit too hard to get that on Saj.

So F-air and fade away. B-air if you haven't seen her commit to f-air; sometimes I'll run away, shield and SH-bair. Bike is pretty useful to toss at her (it's so useful for racking damage because Wario's approach game on Peach is trash) but it's not 100% fullproof. Also, if you wheelie the Bike can hit her whilst floating, but I wouldn't just bike at her for no reason. Learn how to use turnips to your advantage, I think when I can play her game I'll start possibly winning 30-40% of our friendlies instead of 15-20% where I feel I'm at right now. DI her D-throw behind her. Bait air-dodges. Dash attack does not work as an edge-guard, her umbrella goes through the stage, d-air can beat her umbrella if timed right, but be ready to tech anyway. I find myself using sweetspot nair a lot in this match-up more so than in others (altogether not that much) because I'm too afraid to commit to a move with slower start-up. Saj has literally told me, "This match-up just f-air (referring to Peach's f-air)," but I think he was sort of kidding. When you're on ledge, don't commit to a ledge option immediately. He specifically, I don't know about other Peach's, likes to d-air people on ledge and that's when I commit. If you ledge jump, roll, regular getup, or get-up attack on impulse you will get f-aired. And if you ever dash attack against Peach, you're digging your own grave. I don't know if you play melee or brawl, but her pressure game is insane. When she lands with an aerial, its stupid how many mix-ups she gets (I don't even think Saj uses her frame 6 grab lol, he mainly just attacks after landing), so I have to sit in shield to let her get everything out of her system. I usually sh nair oos as a punish, because again dash attack is Wario's one of his least safe attacks on shield afaik (d-smash). I always take Peach to Smashville because I can get Bike to waft there. Be careful around platforms tho, all her attacks seemingly cover the whole platform. If she side-b's, just jump towards where she will land, it's what everyone in our community does against it, and it's hard but with time you can be consistent at doing this on reaction.

Other than that, there are only minor things I am forgetting, and you'll have to figure out what's best for you in this match-up. It's unfortunate that Wario has to camp hard in this match-up. I've watched tons of Brawl Wario videos to see what they did in brawl that works and it seems d-air worked, but Peach's new u-air is very good against it and Wario's d-air has obscene amounts of lag. I think this match-up as well as Mario are what keep Wario from being truly solo viable at this point of the meta. Not falcon, sheik, diddy (which I don't even think it's a bad match-up, just hard), or characters who camp harder. Regardless beating Peach with Wario is the most satisfying thing.

I saw at STR your falling u-air game is leagues better than mine, and also saw you like to SH and FH airdodge before a lot of moves which I do too. I haven't tried falling u-air against Peach, mostly because Wario is super unsafe in the air in this MU as a whole, but maybe you could make it work? Don't be surprised though if it doesn't true combo into itself. If you SH and Full hop airdodge a lot, you're going to have a hard time against campy Peach's and it really isn't that stellar against float. Lastly, I'll just say Saj short hop air-dodges into floating d-air a lot at the beginning of matches which true combos into f-air basically across the entire cast.

 

[Steeler]

Is there any footage of Reflex from MLG?

 

[Axel311]

Is there any footage of Reflex from MLG?

The only one I've found is Reflex vrs. Mr. R: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjAquUrckFQ

Been looking for Reflex/Ryo for a week now, would love to rewatch it. I don't know why nobody seems to be posting replays of these MLG matches.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Steeler Axel311 Here's a bit of Ryo vs Reflex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9hKj1OoKM

I've learned several things about Robin, Toon Link and Bowser Jr., so it'd be nice to cover those and hopefully learn a bit more.

 

[Adrian Marin]

In my experience, Peach wins the neutral against Wario pretty handily if Peach is playing safe; however, if the Wario player weaves in and out, it shouldn't be that hard to acquire some good strings. Wario has the fastest dash attack in the game, and we're going to have to exploit it in these type of matchups. A simple mispaced attack is usually a free dash attack, dash attack is just that fast (it has an active hitbox at frames 4 and 5!) Dtilt should keep non-float approaches at bay with the use of rolls as well, while Ftilt is a pretty good stop to float approaches if it's spaced well. If you have the lead, bike stalling really isn't a bad idea (setting the bike, throwing it up, and camping inside it to stall for time.) Peach's D-throw is kind of scary and you should always try to avoid getting grabbed. Generally, however, this is a matchup where the bike is very strong, so it shouldn't be that hard to camp Peach.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

so it shouldn't be that hard to camp Peach.

Peach has turnips. When I used to try to camp Peach, the Peach player would just fish for stitch faces or other goodies. Peach definitely limits Wario's camping ability more than the rest of the cast. Wario having control over the air allows him to camp and Peach's attacks severely limit this as well. Eating the turnips require the right angle and doesn't always work. It's better to just catch them, because eating also commits Wario to a laggy animation. That being said this might still be a match-up Wario must try to camp xD. Wario playing aggressive while Peach plays defensive sounds scary.

however, if the Wario player weaves in and out, it shouldn't be that hard to acquire some good strings.

If you find any consistent true combos on peach, please post them here and I will be so grateful. I don't know what strings you're talking about since Peach receives so little hitstun and can n-air you before you get any follow-up typically.

I wouldn't completely disagree with using dash attack, as it can punish her grounded moves like you said. Keep in mind the move is around like -38 on shield, so while it may start on frame 4, it only does 7 damage and is extremely punishable. From my experience against a good Peach, Peach will throw out grounded moves after landing an aerial or a float and will have it spaced well. The only time I catch the Peach I play against throw out unsafe grounded moves is when I'm landing and they u-smash thinking I'm going to d-air or they use a mistimed dash attack which can be punished with sh-nair or drop shield and d-tilt depending on their spacing (peach's 2nd dash attack hit can be spaced outside shield-grab range).

Also, aside from my reply to Adrian Marin , if anyone reading this can find a way to punish Peach's fade away F-air on Wario's shield, I'll be the happiest person ever. I've tried everything and there is absolutely no punish for Peach's f-air aka retreating smash attack unless you powershield it which I feel can be hard to do and somewhat inconsistent to rely on. Wario's aerials are barely out of range to punish her, bike has too much start-up. OOS back-air seems to be the only thing close to working, but in all my tests it never reached or peach was able to act when I got within range. I think her f-air makes the match-up very hard as 15 frames of start-up (which I promise you isn't as telegraphed as you think) is around the limit of human reaction time, beat all of Wario's aerials or barely trade, and is completely safe on shield having high shieldstun and the ability to be retreating while active. If you try to punish a well spaced falling f-air with grab, you will guaranteed get hit by Peach's f-smash or d-tilt (whichever they choose). Because it has the shield pushback of a smash attack (so you won't be getting a grab), and Peach's lag animation is so low to the ground, short hop n-air does not hit her. I've heard ZSS's grab will whiff on trying to punish Peach's landing f-air D:

 

[Adrian Marin]

Peach has turnips. When I used to try to camp Peach, the Peach player would just fish for stitch faces or other goodies. Peach definitely limits Wario's camping ability more than the rest of the cast. Wario having control over the air allows him to camp and Peach's attacks severely limit this as well. Eating the turnips require the right angle and doesn't always work. It's better to just catch them, because eating also commits Wario to a laggy animation. That being said this might still be a match-up Wario must try to camp xD. Wario playing aggressive while Peach plays defensive sounds scary.



If you find any consistent true combos on peach, please post them here and I will be so grateful. I don't know what strings you're talking about since Peach receives so little hitstun and can n-air you before you get any follow-up typically.

I wouldn't completely disagree with using dash attack, as it can punish her grounded moves like you said. Keep in mind the move is around like -38 on shield, so while it may start on frame 4, it only does 7 damage and is extremely punishable. From my experience against a good Peach, Peach will throw out grounded moves after landing an aerial or a float and will have it spaced well. The only time I catch the Peach I play against throw out unsafe grounded moves is when I'm landing and they u-smash thinking I'm going to d-air or they use a mistimed dash attack which can be punished with sh-nair or drop shield and d-tilt depending on their spacing (peach's 2nd dash attack hit can be spaced outside shield-grab range).

Also, if anyone reading this can find a way to punish Peach's fade away F-air on Wario's shield, I'll be the happiest person ever. I've tried everything and there is absolutely no punish for Peach's f-air aka retreating smash attack unless you powershield it which I feel can be hard to do and somewhat inconsistent to rely on.

This might be a hard MU for Wario to camp in, but he does have the tools to camp Peach. That's the point i'm trying to express. Furthermore, turnips do not invalidate Wario's camping game. I do suppose "string" is sort of misleading, as Wario's true combos are, for the most part, started by using Uair or sourspot Nair, but he does have some good followups that are augmented by Peach's low gravity. Peach's retreating Fair is impossible to punish on shield as well in my experience, but powershielding or spotdodging her Fair can lead into a Waft or something else. Granted, there is only one truly competent Peach player in my scene, so maybe I don't have sufficient experience to make an accurate assessment of this MU. Still, I feel like these vague tips to fighting Peach are true, for the most part.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Peach's retreating Fair is impossible to punish on shield as well in my experience, but powershielding or spotdodging her Fair can lead into a Waft or something else.

I actually think spot-dodging her f-air could be a really good idea. That being said I'm not sure if PS her f-air will lead to Waft as you still receive 10 frames of shieldstun, just no shield damage or shield pushback. That being said I'll definitely lab that out, as that would be huge to know, because no shield pushback means Wario can reach Peach in time as she fades back perfectly, so I could see it working. Right now, I'd probably tell most Wario's to roll into the f-air and u-tilt or SH-nair after the roll if she's trying to fade away. I'd be very careful about n-air and u-air too as combo tools. I never underestimate Peach's ability to break combos (It's one reason I think she's top 10 in this game) with air-dogde or n-air, if you ever go for a sourspot n-air to waft, I'd always just wait for the air-dodge as most Peach's know they can abuse their floatiness. Falling u-air is probably fine at the lowest of percents, but I personally would not attempt on Peach as she is by no means a fast faller and her u-smash virtually has the strength of Wario's and won't be getting punished hard by Wario. Btw, I still like you giving tips so we can have a productive conversation about it.

 

[Waymas]

Forgive me for being absent these days, I have been very busy with my job, but i'll promise i'll update it on the weekend.

Edit: Let's move to Meta Knight and Ryu!

 

[Micaelis]

My MU experience for both MK and Ryu are limited to FG and Anther's Ladder right now since I only recently picked up Wario again but my take for each:

MK's still a great character but no where near the level he use to be. We out maneuver him heavily in the air (tornado is a shade of it what it once was) and his two most common methods of approach are stuffed by Bite. However, a good MK is going to bait your bites and punish accordingly. Thankfully for us, our floatiness and high air speed make it very difficult for MK to complete the Uair Combos to UpB. In fact, it's pretty easy in general for us to avoid the killing hit of UpB.

MK's best bet is to rely on baits and retreating Fsmash's to zone us out. But we play the waiting game better and he's much lighter than us. Plus, his slow air speed and reliance on grounded zoning means Wafts aren't TOO difficult. His slow air speed also makes Bike crash > edge guard a really flexible and amazing edge guarding option whether you throw it off, throw it up, or just use it to Waft his UpB.

I haven't played any high level MKs yet so I'm going to assume the match up is Even at High Level play so 50:50.


Ryu is an annoying MU. His aerial hit boxes are huge and damaging which leads to us often trading poorly %-wise with his aerials. Bair zoning in the SH range is best while Fair is great in the FH zone. Ryu has very good anti-air with his Uair and Utilt so be careful being above him.

Ryu has two projectiles but they are easy to get around once you learn. If he uses Blue Hadouken, simply SH Fair or Bike through it. Bike also goes through Red Hadouken but you'll take 1-2 % for it. It's worth mentioning Ryu's bread and butter approach is Blue Hadouken into SH approaching Nair. Nair on shield gives Ryu frame advantage so don't try to punish it if they hit your shield. Simply wait for their tilts and then punish those or retreat appropriately. However, Wario has a most wonderful and disjointed Utilt which beats Nair every single time. I highly recommend baiting Blue Hadouken > SH Nair and punish accordingly by Shield > Utilt.

Ryu also has the annoying DownB super armor move (don't know it's name). His DownB has super armor for a total of one hit. Any hit after the first hit will hit as usual. This makes multi-attack moves such as Dair very useful in punishing Ryu's DownB. On the ground, your best bet is to just grab/Bite or Dtilt > Dtilt. In the air, Bite or Dair.

Ryu's biggest weakness is his recovery since SideB spin kick is really easy to Bair/Waft. Never be afraid to go out and try to gimp Ryu. On the subject of spin kick, it only has one hit box so once it hits your shield a single time, you're free to drop shield and punish even he's still spinning around you.

Ryu's biggest strengths are his anti-air moves, huge hit boxes, and the fact he can combo or just plan throw out Shuryuken and kill us at absurdly low percents. Thankfully if we shield Shuryuken, we can punish it well with Fsmash. Just make sure you pick the right direction or you'll eat a real Shuryuken. I recommend dash pivot Fsmash to make sure he can't cross you up while falling with a missed Shoryuken.

Overall I think Ryu is a slightly disadvantageous match up for us so I put it at 45:55 in his favor.

 

[Snorley]

Steeler Axel311 Here's a bit of Ryo vs Reflex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9hKj1OoKM

I've learned several things about Robin, Toon Link and Bowser Jr., so it'd be nice to cover those and hopefully learn a bit more.

i play dath because i reside in south florida.. robin aerials all auto cancel and his jab usually comes out right after (i think frame 4).. i think robin wins the neutral for the most part but you win offstage so if you grab him get off and try to keep him there (also reflex vs ryo is uploaded on youtube now)

 

[Micaelis]

I've been playing a lot of decent players and a wide variety of the cast on Anther's Ladder. I haven't had any great problems with any character except one... Duck Hunt Dog.

I know he isn't being discussed right now but in both matches I played vs the DHD, I just couldn't figure out solid ways to approach him. There's a good chance though that I'm just missing stuff or MU experience. Is there any information on the MU you all can share with me that helps?

My limited experience showed that all his projectiles beat Bike and Bite didn't seem too effective. I mostly tried to Fair away the TNT and try to pressure him in the mid range but his aerials have solid range to them and had a hard time punishing much of anything. Keep in mind that this was a really solid DHD who was able to keep the TNT floating about SH level while still spamming the Western Shooters and Frisbee Discs. Now thinking back, I prob should of stayed a lot more grounded and approached using shield. I should probably read up more on the properties of his projectiles so I can understand counter measures against them better (even if it's just shielding).

 

[PokeMarioRevolution]

I've played a few serious Meta Knights and I think the matchup isn't too hard, I believe it might be 55-50 or 60-40 in Wario's Favor

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

All I can say for the MK matchup is to NOT recover high!

MK can be in serious trouble if he makes a little mistake tho.

But I think this match-up is 50-50

 

[Dar4]

I have lots of experience in this matchup. The #1 ranked player in my scene (my scene consists of about 70 players for what it's worth) co-mains him. And we practice together fairly often.

And lol, absolutely do not recovery high is right just like above post said. I've gotten punished for that many times.

I feel this matchup for any character boils down to how well you can prevent MK from getting his Up B setups - either dash attack to up airs to up B or dthrow to upairs to up B.

I think wario does that pretty well. Wario's weight means he doesn't die from upair to up B strings as easily. Wario is pretty small, so a bit harder to juggle than most. Bike and Ftilts, along with bairs in neutral can keep meta knight out. Wario's excellent aerial mobility helps evade raw Up Bs. Wario is aerial based, so if you're constantly shorthoping and throwing retreating fairs/bairs it makes it harder for MK to land that dash attack or get that grab.

Wario absolutely does not have to approach, which is great. Also, MK is pretty light which is good. I think this is even, 50-50. Wario might even have a slight advantage here, but that's debatable. I think it's safe to say that neither character has the upper hand here. It seems even or 55-45 at worst for either MK or Wario.



Ryu is so good. If you're ever played a good Ryu, it's so frustrating. The tilt to up B setups are stupidly good. His Up B recovery is actually pretty easy to mess with if you have bike ready to throw on it as it's very vertical and predictable. Unfortunately, Ryu's up B has stupidly good priority so you can't beat it with dash attack at the ledge.

I think staying defensive is key here. Do not let Ryu get any tilt to up B strings on you, a properly inputted Up B kills really early. Ryu's fireballs, while annoying, are not fast and spammable enough to force you to approach. So Don't. Also Ryu is fairly big and his mobility is pretty average. So just stay away and play campy, stall for waft. Up close Ryu is super deadly so you don't want to be there.

I find overall Ryu has an easier and more consistent time killing wario than vice versa. Overall, Ryu is just a better character in my opinion, he has the better toolkit. Wario's mobility is better but Ryu does more damage, kills early (not as early as waft of course, but still early and his up B is obviously not gone if you miss unlike waft) and has a projectile. Ryu just has an easier time killing here and I think both characters are similar in terms of their ability to rack up percent. Ryu can kinda be gimped with a thrown bike but that's not gonna happen all that often. And his Up B is tough to mess with otherwise because of it's priority. Have to give a nod to Ryu.

Slight advantage to Ryu in my opinion. 60-40. I don't find this matchup to be as bad as Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy or Mario though. It's totally doable, just slightly in Ryu's favor I feel.

 

[Magik0722]

You guys DIing his upair to upB strings differently than me somehow? I can't seem to escape the 0-death combos from MK.

 

[Micaelis]

You guys DIing his upair to upB strings differently than me somehow? I can't seem to escape the 0-death combos from MK.

If MK does it right and you're at the perfect percent, it should be a true combo. This is rare though and usually happens when MK has decent Rage (90-110%) and you are around 60-70% or so. These are the times you need to be absolutely sure not to eat a Dash Attack so play safer and camp more if you have to.

As far as DIing, don't DI downwards like people have the habit to; DI up and away from the direction he is currently moving in the air. This forces him to be perfect with the jump height and change directions or drop it. Plus, sometimes it forces him to reverse UpB, further adding to the fact he might not hit with the correct hit box on UpB so you can slip out of the 2nd hit.


I recently played a good MK for a long while so I tweaked my previous post a tiny bit, mostly just to add that using the Bike to edge guard MK is an AMAZING tool due to his low aerial mobility and flexibility of Bike. If he goes low to UpB, you can throw the Bike out (catches UpB for 2 hits) or use it to extend Waft and kill him. If he comes in with Drill or Cape, throw the Bike either Down or Up. Up if you think he might get up, ledge jump, or roll (most common options) and Down if you think he will stay on the stage. If he rolls, you can Dthrow him into the incoming Bike hit to combo. The Bike Down Throw option forces him to get off the ledge using an option so you can punish. They often roll which is a free Fsmash.

Highly recommend playing around with the Bike as an edge guard tool in a lot MUs now actually. The flexibility of it is just amazing. It'd prob be very deadly vs Ryu too. If her covers high, throw Up. If he recovers even with the stage, throw Out. If he recovers low, same deal with MK.

 

[Waymas]

Based on my experience vs Leo , i would have to say this MU is either 45-55 MK favor or 50-50, you have to wait for Mk on this MU because he can easily wall all of your options plus uair beats your air game , your best bet is playing on the ground and punish those dash attacks and the most important thing DON'T GET GRABBED, it will put you on some uncomfortable situations. Like Micaelis said: The bike is your friend so use it wisely, one last thing....if he's above you Utilt will beat him. Overall play really campy and safe.

I know nothing of the Ryu MU, so i'm sorry guys ;(

 

[Spinosaurus]

MK gets the uair combo on Wario a lot easier than you guys are making it out to be.

 

[Amadeus9]

Did some testing, the range is pretty large where dash attack combos into uair, and Wario's tumble animation is lolbad, so you almost have to intentionally drop combos.

Mk can either play this matchup either aggro or passively, that's bad for Wario cause his only option is to play defensive while the mk can adapt his own playstyle moreso. Mk doesn't mind so much playing playing the patient game against wario, basically if wario is below 40% he's in constant threat of just dying so mk can afford to be patient, if he decides to go aggro the wario player can do a lot of stuff with decent anti airs and generally superior ground moves to keep the mk at bay but small mistakes can easily lead to death.

It's basically a hard matchup for both parties but mk definitely has the edge from what I've seen and can surmise, if I were to put a number on it I'd say 5545, I wouldn't go any worse than that nor would I say it's even.

 

[RoninX1819]

from my tournament experiance ryu wins the match up and I will explain why. one of the biggest issues is that wario gets out ranged and out punished by ryu hard. rising nair or shaku hover or even rising fair beats out bike and ryu gets good follow ups off of them as well. wario is veeeery heavy and the up tilt lock works on him as well. things that wario does have over ryu is that he has a command grab, waft, and a ok of stage game for possible gimping, but ryu straight up wins the nuetral.

 

[Snorley]

from my experience.. wario vs ryu is 50-50 or slight edge on ryu favor.. ryu has high damage output and can kill relatively early but you have to respect ryu's aerial because you cannot really trade wih him.. abuse ryu offstage and always expect focus considering its his primary way of landing. Take a more patient approach and try to whiff punish. (also ryu uptilt is + on shield
so respect that)