Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm not fond of it, but it's probably about even.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm not fond of it, but it's probably about even.

I'm interested in your reasoning. Don't have experience on this matchup but have been pretty curious about it.

 

[extrasensory]

whenever i play this matchup i feel like a lot of wario's attacks straight up lose to fox's so i'm not sure it's even / our advantage - feels like you kinda have to rely on landing wafts else you get overwhelmed. sorta like sheik except fox can kill you earlier if you mess up. i'd say 45-55 fox advantage?

 

[DavemanCozy]

whenever i play this matchup i feel like a lot of wario's attacks straight up lose to fox's so i'm not sure it's even / our advantage - feels like you kinda have to rely on landing wafts else you get overwhelmed. sorta like sheik except fox can kill you earlier if you mess up. i'd say 45-55 fox advantage?

I could believe a small advantage for either, but I don't see how it's like Sheik at all (no F-air lulz, but he does kill you earlier). I think Sheik is much worse for Wario.

The matchup is less stupid now, the jab lock has been removed there's no frame 2 move that infinites him when he's above 45%. That's not to say you shouldn't respect Fox's jab though, it now autolinks into the rapid kicks on frame 3 (much much earlier now) and has a surprisingly wide hitbox in front of him. Think Little Mac rapid jabs (kinda), they will rack up damage.

One thing that Fox is able to do is punish fading aerials from Wario because he's so fast in both running and neutral speed. Wario may outrange Fox but he's not fast enough to weave away from Fox as freely as some of you think. He also has fast jump speed and fall speed which can let him sneak up on Wario if you're not paying attention.

I actually think Wario wins this matchup. Wario outranges him, has no problem camping against him, escapes his combos better than many other characters, all the while Wario pressures Fox with his bite and waft (Wario also gets to bike freely whenever Fox uses his laser, not that his laser is that important anyway.) It's also worth noting that Wario has an easy time edgeguarding in this matchup and can outright murder Fox by spamming the dash attack on the edge. Wario's heaviness also doesn't help Fox at all. I'm pretty sure Wario wins this one, but I have limited tournament experience with this matchup.

I disagree with the combo part on Fox's side having trouble. Because Wario is heavy, Fox is capable of linking weak N-air -> Up-smash, U-tilt -> (reverse) B-air, or U-tilt -> U-air. It's hard to properly DI vs Fox's U-tilt because it comes out on frame 3, it's a really good combo starter for Fox, and his running speed along the ground can catch up to Wario's DI without difficulty. Besides tomahawk jumps -> u-tilt, perfect-pivot u-tilt is something Foxes are getting very good at doing and can let Fox sneak into Wario's space to get the confirm.

I disagree with camping Fox, he has the perfect toolset to avoid being camped. Lasers are not what they used to be, but if Wario feels like running away, Fox can shoot him at a safe distance without being punished. He has more than enough time to shield an incoming bike or jump over it. Lasers are still an essential part of his toolset, and if you truly believe they're not important, then you're not playing any good Foxes.

Fox's Dash Attack beats Wario's Chomp and clashes with Dash attack iirc. Side-B can also be caugh with Chomp as long as Fox doesn't hit Wario above his head with it.

I agree on two things though: Wario (and nearly everyone) is really good at edge-guarding Fox, and Waft is terrifying when Fox is so fragile.

 

[Rhus]

I actually think Wario wins this matchup. Wario outranges him, has no problem camping against him, escapes his combos better than many other characters, all the while Wario pressures Fox with his bite and waft (Wario also gets to bike freely whenever Fox uses his laser, not that his laser is that important anyway.) It's also worth noting that Wario has an easy time edgeguarding in this matchup and can outright murder Fox by spamming the dash attack on the edge. Wario's heaviness also doesn't help Fox at all. I'm pretty sure Wario wins this one, but I have limited tournament experience with this matchup.

Wario's large-ish frame and physics are not exactly nice to him when Fox gets in. His air speed helps him for sure, but the early percent combos Fox has on Wario are pretty scary. We rack damage on him fairly easily and it's not like he has a massive wall of disjoints like Rosa to keep us out. Additionally, Fox's ground and vertical speed allows him to cover Wario's landings well, but your air speed makes it a harder for us.

You are underestimating lasers a whole bunch. Fox's blaster is very valuable, and wasting time against it is not a wise decision. Additionally, unless Wario is close to Fox, Bike can't punish lasers unless the Fox has poor reaction time. Lasers force you to approach, you have land eventually and no amount of air speed stops that. I understand that us blasting you just charges your fart more, but we build damage very quickly and waiting for that might not be worth it in the long run. This is especially true because I believe that Fox has more reliable kill set ups than Wario.

Off stage is free, you gimp us. Join the other 93% of the roster lol.

Fox's frailty makes no matter how much we outfox outmaneuver you and how much we combo you still scary to play against as a fart will kill us at 30% or something. Fox is pretty challenging to hit with it though due to his excessive speed. My limited experience in this matchup has tested my ability to play with Fox's in-out shenanigans; being highly aggressive once Fox gets in, then pulling away and camping once I think I'm in any danger (even if it's only a minor chance).

Overall I think Fox has a lot going for him in this matchup, but certain tools Wario has makes this matchup even or close to even. His command grab punishes us easily for going for anything not guaranteed, and fart kills us stupid early. You gimp us but who doesn't seriously.

I'm thinking either 50:50 or 55:45 Fox, but I have not fought any particularly outstanding Wario mains, so it's quite plausible that I may be missing something.

 

[C4-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q07xX0ALaI
just thought i would throw this vid out there. I actually played rice (the fox) a few rounds before jeepy and he destroyed me. I was glad i got to see jeepy do so well against him, i learned a lot from seeing how he played the neutral and dealt with rices pressure which I wasn't able to handle. Maybe yall can learn something too! first match seems likes its going bad but just watch round 2 and 3

 

[Rhus]

It's a good set overall. It moreso just cements in my mind that Fox has to in-out Wario as much as possible to not eat a heavy punish. Both players are really talented, but I saw Rice miss some ideal kill opportunities like using the wrong aerial etc. and he seemed to get a little flustered later where he was missing kill confirms and didn't exploit Fox's ability to disengage/re-engage so quickly.

He was doing this before but once Jeepy got momentum Rice was making bad decisions like recovering poorly (Like his first stock in game 3). The furthest I think this matchup could go would be 55:45 Wario, but I still think it's fairly even.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't think Rice used F-air a single time against Jeepy in that set, even when he should've gone for it he used another aerial. Seemed unusual to me when he tried going for U-air at 2:47 instead of F-air, Rice ended up getting punished by Jeepy's F-air. He also got read at the end of that second game, the waft was perfect to punish that baited air-dodge.

Rice did show some punishes on Jeepy when he was using bike, like in the first game at 0:12, 0:36, and the last game with that dash attack at 5:52.

I agree with the above too, Rice also didn't choose very smart recovery at some key moments which really costs you with Fox, particularly at 6:10 when he got F-smashed and Jeepy had already thrown that bike up in the air.

 

[Axel311]

I've always felt comfortable in this matchup. Fox is super light and can die stupid early from waft. I killed a fox on for glory at 33% at center stage with a waft last week, video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3lsKcF2f3E

I was super hyped when that happened. Fox is easily nair to waft combo'ed since you can do it at such a low percent.

Fox has pretty short range, and laser is pretty darn punishable with bike because of its end lag. He can combo us well though. Still I've always had a lot of success bobbing and weaving against fox. His short range means he can't really wall us out. Not gonna put a rating on this but I would guess it's even or slightly in wario's favor because waft is so dangerous for fox.

 

[Ikes]

I think it's even or maybe slightly villager's favor but I havent played the MU before. Wario cant use his bike much sure but he still does well against campies regardless.

sorry, wanted to weigh in on villager but i wont any more

 

[Zionaze]

I once accidentaly pressed down-b while fox was utilt chaining me and it murdered him

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I don't know this matchup very well tbh, save for a few friendlies here and there. I can't really go into depth, but I think Fox wins this matchup. Nair beats a lot of Wario's attacks, utilt chains are more effective, and in general he's just...fast. But Fox is also lighter, making it easier for Wario to kill him(which is great since our lack of kill potential is an inherent weakness).

 

[ChefKef]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, I don't have anything to contribute right now, but could we put Mario for the next matchup? I'm having trouble getting close to Wario in anyway, especially dealing with chomp.
Sorry if this is in the wrong spot. With the mods it seems like if it isn't a guide it's against the rules, or in the wrong spot ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Dynomite]

I'm going to have to agree with what Cozy said about the matchup, and side with the favor being with Fox. I believe Fox has the tools to shut down a campy Wario using lasers and his in-n-out game is devastating to Wario. When it comes to the neutral, I believe Fox has the advantage. When it comes down to keeping momentum of the match, we both have good tools in doing so, but if we lose momentum its harder to gain it back. That's actually the way I see the matchup should be played. No/less camp and keep control.

A lot of what I would say has already been said, but I didnt see much discussion about stages so I'll add my opinion on the topic.

BF: I can see Battlefield being in favor of Wario as we can circle camp pretty well against fox. It takes out a good majority of his laser game, and when Fox jumps he basically has to commit to one airial choice, land back below the platform, or land on the platform (not likely since its a disadvantage) or land on the stage (these are obv options, but just illustrating that Fox doesnt have as many options as other characters like weaving around, command grabs, multi jumps, etc..) Fox can camp under a platform which makes it a challenge for Wario to get in, but if Wario gets in it is hard for Fox to get away due to platforms. We have stronger tools to juggle, and if Fox chooses to land on a platform and shield, there's that neutral B thing we tend to do. Omm Nom

FD: Well.. Depends on the play-style of the two players for this one. I can see it benefiting Fox more than Wario as we dont have platforms to "run away" or juggle on. Fox can force the approach with lasers, but Wario can run. It is EXTREMELY annoying to run after a Fox on this stage and I would ban it 100% of the time. I dont like playing on FD in general so i'm not going to say much at the risk of being bias.

SV: This would be my pick for starter and mostly everyone as it is king neutral. It is small enough to where whoever has control, or momentum, can keep it more effectively than a large FD or T&C. Less space to run means more in your face action. The moving platform above is a good get away if needed, but can also help Fox recover as it adds an extra option (assuming the platform is on that side)

Could talk about more stages, but this novel is long enough as it is.

I guess you are all expecting a number so I'll add that too. 60:40 Fox or 55:45 Fox. I've been seeing a lot of people get discouraged in a matchup just because it has been voted as "disadvantage" so I want to end on a note: knowing your options, the tools you have, setups and practicing the matchup will put YOU in the advantage when in a match. If your opponent doesnt know the little things about the matchup (followups, setups, option coverage, etc..), it is not in their favor. This might be obvious to a lot of people, but I see it happen rather often.

 

[Ikes]

Should our next MU discussion be Shulk? or have we done that already?

I'm going to have to agree with what Cozy said about the matchup, and side with the favor being with Fox. I believe Fox has the tools to shut down a campy Wario using lasers and his in-n-out game is devastating to Wario. When it comes to the neutral, I believe Fox has the advantage. When it comes down to keeping momentum of the match, we both have good tools in doing so, but if we lose momentum its harder to gain it back. That's actually the way I see the matchup should be played. No/less camp and keep control.

A lot of what I would say has already been said, but I didnt see much discussion about stages so I'll add my opinion on the topic.

BF: I can see Battlefield being in favor of Wario as we can circle camp pretty well against fox. It takes out a good majority of his laser game, and when Fox jumps he basically has to commit to one airial choice, land back below the platform, or land on the platform (not likely since its a disadvantage) or land on the stage (these are obv options, but just illustrating that Fox doesnt have as many options as other characters like weaving around, command grabs, multi jumps, etc..) Fox can camp under a platform which makes it a challenge for Wario to get in, but if Wario gets in it is hard for Fox to get away due to platforms. We have stronger tools to juggle, and if Fox chooses to land on a platform and shield, there's that neutral B thing we tend to do. Omm Nom

FD: Well.. Depends on the play-style of the two players for this one. I can see it benefiting Fox more than Wario as we dont have platforms to "run away" or juggle on. Fox can force the approach with lasers, but Wario can run. It is EXTREMELY annoying to run after a Fox on this stage and I would ban it 100% of the time. I dont like playing on FD in general so i'm not going to say much at the risk of being bias.

SV: This would be my pick for starter and mostly everyone as it is king neutral. It is small enough to where whoever has control, or momentum, can keep it more effectively than a large FD or T&C. Less space to run means more in your face action. The moving platform above is a good get away if needed, but can also help Fox recover as it adds an extra option (assuming the platform is on that side)

Could talk about more stages, but this novel is long enough as it is.

I guess you are all expecting a number so I'll add that too. 60:40 Fox or 55:45 Fox. I've been seeing a lot of people get discouraged in a matchup just because it has been voted as "disadvantage" so I want to end on a note: knowing your options, the tools you have, setups and practicing the matchup will put YOU in the advantage when in a match. If your opponent doesnt know the little things about the matchup (followups, setups, option coverage, etc..), it is not in their favor. This might be obvious to a lot of people, but I see it happen rather often.

I think dreamland is hugely beneficial for Wario but that may just be me.

It's got taller platforms than BF and the wind prevents camping on both sides, but due to the platforms, Wario can circle camp easier on this map despite the wind.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think dreamland is hugely beneficial for Wario but that may just be me.

It's got taller platforms than BF and the wind prevents camping on both sides, but due to the platforms, Wario can circle camp easier on this map despite the wind.

Dreamland is one of Fox's best stages because of the low ceiling letting him kill earlier. I wouldn't take a Fox there.

I also don't like going there when I play Wario either, I find I don't live as long.

 

[Steeler]

Dreamland is one of Fox's best stages because of the low ceiling letting him kill earlier. I wouldn't take a Fox there.

I also don't like going there when I play Wario either, I find I don't live as long.

Dreamland having a low ceiling is a myth, the main platform's ceiling is the same as FD/Smashville/Duck Hunt/main Delfino.

 

[Rhus]

Dreamland having a low ceiling is a myth, the main platform's ceiling is the same as FD/Smashville/Duck Hunt/main Delfino.

This video says it has a lower ceiling than Battlefield and Miiverse:

Also one thing to keep in mind when taking Fox to BF and Miiverse (I'll check tonight whether it works on Dreamland or not) is he can autocancel Bair, Dair and Uair from a full hop beneath the platforms, which makes hit platform coverage pretty solid.

 

[Steeler]

This video says it has a lower ceiling than Battlefield and Miiverse

That is correct. Not sure if you are implying all those other stages have "low" ceilings.

 

[Rhus]

That is correct. Not sure if you are implying all those other stages have "low" ceilings.

Whoops, sorry about that, I actually misread your post. That's what I get for reading through responses too quickly.

There is the fact that Dreamland's platforms are closer to the ceiling though, so Uair and Usmash will kill noticeably earlier there.

 

[Waymas]

Last week and we moving to Mario ;3

 

[Axel311]

Last week and we moving to Mario ;3

Any chance we could do multiple matchups at once like some of the other character forums do? There's lots of matchups to cover and it's going to take a long time at the current pace. Just a suggestion.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, its taking too long to just discuss one character, so we should at least be discussing multiple characters at a time.

 

[Ikes]

oh this is cool, my brother mains mario and he's a damn good one at that so I can definitely input my experience

 

[Waymas]

Allright then, let's move to Mario and Pikachu.. and gooooo!

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Now here's a historical matchup dating back to Super Mario Land 2...

I feel like Mario is a character that can challenge us aerially. He also has better combo potential no matter what percent we're at and his frame data is slightly faster. At the very least, Corkscrew makes it so we don't have to worry too much about UTilt combos from Mario at lower percents. Aerial fireballs are more risky to challenge since grounded ones just get run over. Mario can't exactly gimp us. We can always recover really high or to the other end of the stage, so we don't really have too much to worry about in terms of FLUDD, FAir and Cape offstage. Mario's invincible, lagless head (USmash) MIGHT make things tricky approaching aerially, but don't quote me on that. Mario can't stop us from camping any more than any other character, as far as I can see, though.

My opinion is that it's 45:55, Mario's favor. I might need more experience on this though.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

is a matchup I know well, but I'm not consistent with. Mario has a great combo game on us, lots of good anti-airs, and better kill options. Fireball is great at harassing us at mid-range and for closing distance. He also has very little moves that are noticeably laggy, so playing a bait and punish style is more difficult since he can just throw out stuff constantly. Wario generally wants to try and space with fairs and bairs, wait for a hit, and try to get in. Mario also has a very linear recovery, and if you hit him out of it once, he's probably dead. Another advantage Wario has is that Mario can't really edgeguard him, since Mario can't really challenge Wario's bike unless you are braindead with it. I don't really struggle with this matchup that much, but I think at a high enough level it is 45-55 in 's favor.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

is a matchup I absolutely hate, and I personally think it is one of Wario's worst matchups in the game.

In Pika's favor:

• Pikachu is super mobile. He can close the distance on Wario very fast,
• Pikachu's airgame, i find, outright beats Wario's. Quick, hard to challenge, and they set up combos.
• Pikachu gets a lot out of his combos thanks to Wario being heavy.
• Pikachu can keep constant pressure on Wario, making it hard to camp and build waft or reset the situation.
• Pikachu knocks Wario off his bike very easily with Nair and Fair.
• Pikachu is virtually impossible to edgeguard, which sucks since Wario relies very heavily on kills by gimping.
• Wario pretty much has no answer to Quick Attack offensively.
• The ***** is so damn short that a lot of my moves go over his damn head.

In Wario's favor:

• Waft kills Pikachu stupid early. I have killed a Pikachu as early as 30% with rage.
• Pikachu struggles to challenge Dair
• Pray to god that their controller breaks mid-match.

Wario wants to play stupidly safe. I know that's how Wario generally plays, but I mean stupid safe. Space with fairs until you land one, close the distance to get a grab or chomp or something idk, and then run the hell away before he retaliates. You want to play on stages that give Wario room to run around like Town and City or Duck Hunt. Pikachu likes Battlefield and FD more than you.

I think it's 40-60 or even 30-70 in 's favor. This matchup is awful

 

[Sari]

For I also agree that Mario has the advantage. He can jump and use fireballs to easily get close to Wario (you can use the bike to plow through them but it isn't help much when the fireballs are coming from above). Mario has a great combo game with attacks such as u-tilt, u-air, d-air, and up-B as a finisher. This can be tough to deal with since Wario isn't exactly the best character for getting out of combos, and by the time he gets out he'll have a lot of damage. Plus unlike Luigi (who also has some good aerial combos/similar moveset), Mario isn't slippery and he has good air speed, meaning that he can get close to Wario and not be juggled in the air as badly as his brother. Mario's recovery is nothing special but he can still be hard to edgeguard because of his air speed and how quick his up-B snaps onto the ledge (not sure if farting on the bike near the ledge can stop this though). On top of this if Wario's bike is caped while thrown, it'll do damage to Wario which makes bike tossing shenanigans very risky. When it comes to approaching each other normally, Mario can use b-airs to create good spacing and at high percents he can easily KO Wario thanks to his quick smash attacks. Overall I also think it's 55:45 in Mario's favor.

I don't have much experience with but like ZeGlasses said it's probably in Pikachu's favor due to how quick Pikachu is and how hard he is to punish. Can't give an exact number though.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

I always get timeout'd by every I played.

 

[miniada]

Mario main here I would like to share some input about mario 55:45 mario can combo wario pretty well and can punish wario laggier moves wario can also get edgeguarded as well his fireballs and airspeed make it easy for mario to approach however wario is heavy and hard to kill and he has good, kill power

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Mario main here I would like to share some input about mario 55:45 mario can combo wario pretty well and can punish wario laggier moves wario can also get edgeguarded as well his fireballs and airspeed make it easy for mario to approach however wario is heavy and hard to kill and he has good, kill power

How does Wario get edgeguarded by Mario as long as he has the bike? We could recover to the other end of the stage either above or below it unless Mario can get high or low enough to hit us out of it.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yeah, Mario can't really do much against a Wario recovering high, except maybe tack some damage on him as he lands.

 

[miniada]

How does Wario get edgeguarded by Mario as long as he has the bike? We could recover to the other end of the stage either above or below it unless Mario can get high or low enough to hit us out of it.

Huh? Guess I forgot about that sorry about that

 

[Hyper]

Just throwing a fun fact out there but Mario can cape us on the bike in the air so we'll fly in the other direction.

Not like it matters if you just instantly jump off.

 

[Axel311]

Mario -

I think Mario wins this. Fireballs are a real pain, and I feel like Wario can struggle alot against a campy Mario is he's behind. Mario has excellent shorthop options to get Wario off bike, and can of course combo Wario really well. I got knocked out by a good Mario last tourney. I don't think this is too bad because you can counter camp Mario but if you get behind you'll have issues.

55:45

Pika -

HATE this matchup. Pika can deal with bike really well, and Pika's hitbox is so small so she's so fast, that's she's tough to bite and fart on. It's hard for Wario to play his passive campy style, PIka can just get to him so well. On the plus side fart kills really early if we land, as does upsmash. Pika has excellent answers to bike and her upsmash is a huge threat when we get to above 100%. Not an impossible matchup, but difficult.

60:40

I don't see how it could possibly be worse than that though. Pika is really good, but there's nothing I feel he does that completely shuts down Wario's game. Wario still has a very useable fair, bike, bite and fart combos which he can always do work with. And bike beats Pika's projectile which is big.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Mario -

I think Mario wins this. Fireballs are a real pain, and I feel like Wario can struggle alot against a campy Mario is he's behind. Mario has excellent shorthop options to get Wario off bike, and can of course combo Wario really well. I got knocked out by a good Mario last tourney. I don't think this is too bad because you can counter camp Mario but if you get behind you'll have issues.

55:45

Pika -

HATE this matchup. Pika can deal with bike really well, and Pika's hitbox is so small so she's fast, that's she's tough to bite and fart on. It's hard for Wario to play his passive campy style, PIka can just get to him so well. On the plus side fart kills really early if we land, as does upsmash. Pika has excellent answers to bike and her upsmash is a huge threat when we get to above 100%. Not an impossible matchup, but difficult.

60:40

I don't see how it could possibly be worse than that though. Pika is really good, but there's nothing I feel he does that completely shuts down Wario's game. Wario still has a very useable fair, bike, bite and fart combos which he can always do work with.

This has nothing to do with anything, but I just have to tell you that Pikachu is a guy.

 

[Axel311]

This has nothing to do with anything, but I just have to tell you that Pikachu is a guy.

Really? Well I learned something today.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Really? Well I learned something today.

Ya. You can tell by looking at his tail. Girl Pikachu's have a slightly different design.

 

[Little Z]

I have a friend who mains Pikachu who I play against all the time, so I can probably deal with this match up better than most. I find myself having to adjust my playstyle as there are some things that just do not work against Pikachu.

• Approaching from the air is hard if they space fair well, as the hitbox is slightly disjointed and the multiple hits will beat out Wario's fair and nair. Bair is probably your best spacing tool as it has more range, but can still be outprioritized.
• Whenever Pikachu lands a combo on you, you will usually take a fair amount of damage from it due to Wario's weight and susceptibility to getting juggled.
• Make sure to shield quick attack to avoid uptilt strings, I find that trying to punish it with a move wont work very often because Wario has no moves that stay out for a long time. Try to predict where they will land instead, but they can still always mix it up.
• You should almost always be able to avoid pikachus gimps and thunder offstage by mixing up your recovery, which limits one of pikachus main kill options, so remember this.
• Use Waft. Especially good for punishing a misinput skull bash when they tried to quick attack. Half waft also kills earlier on pikachu so if you get a chance to punish, use it.

I agree with 60:40 The matchup is difficult for Wario but if you play correctly by being safe and landing wafts you can definitely win this match up.