Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[Little Z]

As for Mario, I can see 55:45
Mario can combo you a lot and generally has better tools but Wario lives for a long time so you can chip away and maybe even get a rage waft. Avoid trying to land on him with bite, dair, nair etc. because the invincibility on up smash will beat all of these options.

 

[ElDood]

Just a little side note, if you're on your bike and Pikachu decides to Skull Bash, he won't break through your wheelie on a normal bike. He'll hit the bike (if it's in wheelie position) and stick there for a little bit. He's basically giving you the bike smash.

But yeah, Pikachu is a nightmare matchup for Wario.

 

[Rakurai]

Is Wario able to bite Quick Attack reliably, or does the hitbox stuff it?

 

[Waymas]

It can work but it's really difficult, you can give a try

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...yxklAybEWtvybaF2w&sig2=nR2wQ5tjygokp1WQcmm0Uw were discussing wario and would love your input

 

[Waymas]

IMO This MU is 50 50, Mario can't do much about your camping and you can recover easily, but he can combo you at early percents like there's no tomorrow, nair will get you out of the bike, try using utilt a lot it will help you with those pesky nairs. Bair is really good on this MU amd don't waste those wafts!

 

[Dynomite]

If you hold up while using the bike, would nair still knock you off?

 

[WispBae]

Hey there... you uhh... guys...

(GOD IT SMELLS HORRIBLE IN HERE, I CAN ALMOST TASTE THE FARTS... GAAHHH) *gag, wheeze*

The Doggy forums are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click this picture of the (oddly) cutest OTP in Diamond City to go straight to the thread!

 

[ElDood]

If you hold up while using the bike, would nair still knock you off?

Need more information than that. I'd need to know which character is using the nair, and when they're using it. When you say you're holding up, do you mean in order to hit with the front wheel and knock the opponent with the bike, or is the opponent coming at you with the wheel already up? Are they using nair from in front of you, above you or behind you? This all factors into whether or not you get knocked off, or they eat bike, or you both miss.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Hey there... you uhh... guys...

(GOD IT SMELLS HORRIBLE IN HERE, I CAN ALMOST TASTE THE FARTS... GAAHHH) *gag, wheeze*

The Doggy forums are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click this picture of the (oddly) cutest OTP in Diamond City to go straight to the thread!

Maybe I know something about this matchup. PS: I'll fart on your doggies.

 

[DrunkWario]

Since I didn't see this mentioned yet (unless this is fairly obvious), using Wario's up-B handily can allow him to escape some of Mario's early % combos, like the incredibly advanced down throw to utilt to utilt to utilt, etc..

I've been able to interrupt this combo as early as when the down throw finishes, but usually it happens after one utilt happens. Either of which can actually give Wario a small percent lead once this exchange ends, given both started at equal damage. However, I don't know the specific frame data for when either character is allowed to act out of the throw / being thrown.

 

[Roots]

Since I didn't see this mentioned yet (unless this is fairly obvious), using Wario's up-B handily can allow him to escape some of Mario's early % combos, like the incredibly advanced down throw to utilt to utilt to utilt, etc..

Really? I remember his up-b comes out at frame 6. Why would it be good for escaping combos when nair is faster?

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Really? I remember his up-b comes out at frame 6. Why would it be good for escaping combos when nair is faster?

I mostly prefer the Fair depends where Mario is spacing while combo'ing and Fair will more likely hit Mario then Nair.

 

[shrooby]

Little late, but if any ya'll got some time we're discussing the Wario MU in the DDD forum

http://smashboards.com/threads/read...-currently-discussing-wario-9-18-9-22.395045/

Input from your guys' side would be appreciated~

 

[Routa]

Nair's hitbox comes out on frame 4 while Up-B's hitbox comes out on frame 6-7. But Nair's hitbox isn't big enough to interrupt combos. But anyways I do agree that MU is 50:50.

Edit: So... What about xXxWarioSlayerxXx (Shulk)?

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Edit: So... What about xXxWarioSlayerxXx (Shulk)?

I don't think I can call him Wario Slayer anymore. Of course he has sick range and stuff, but if Wario is quick enough, it won't be any problem at all.

 

[Waymas]

Ready for the next matchups?

Let's move to Falcon and Ness ;3

 

[Revax]

Ness
Good disjointed attacks
Pk-fire can knock Wario off the bike at mid+ percents
Good U-Air
Better ground frame data
Good throw combos and kill throw

Wario
Can gimp Ness somewhat easily
Bike can remove grab opportunities for Ness
Also has a good U-AIr
Better aerial frame data
Guaranteed high percent kill option (Platform cancelled D-Air to U-Smash)

Patch 1.10 was good to Wario for this match-up, by giving him his old dash attack, the sour spot of which always works on Ness when they try to recover using PK-Thunder 2.

Neutral
This is not a match-up that Wario can be aggressive with, as getting hit by PK-fire can result in a nasty grab combo, and aerial approaches can be walled out with F-Air. However, Wario can control the ground by sending bikes at Ness, and the worst thing Ness can do in the air is a landing aerial with little way to change when they will land so Wario can poke Ness as he lands. Ness has greater disjoints so he can play a bit safer.

Combos/Punishes
Ness has nasty low percent combo strings from grabs, however Wario can avoid this better than most characters with landing Bike/Chomp.
Wario relies more on reading what Ness is going to do. At low percents a lot of Wario's options are unsafe. Compared to most characters, I find wafting Ness difficult due to his disjoints and not having too much endlag on things.

KOing
Both characters don't struggle to kill in this match-up, however if both characters are at similar high percents, Ness can arguably land the kill easier with more overall fast kill options.

Overall I'd say this match-up is 50-50, maybe slightly in Ness' favor. I can see a lot of reasons for it going for either character though. Some of what I've said could be mistaken.

 

[miniada]

I secondary falcon I think it's 50:50
warios bite is extremely useful. It can eat his side, netural, and down b. He can also edgeguard falcon pretty good. But falcon has faster mobility and frame data. He also has better punish game. And can combo wario hard.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Also, Wario can combo Falcon really well while Falcon can to the same to him, but Wario can gimp Falcon pretty easily. I kinda give this matchup 55:45 for Wario

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I think Falcon is nowhere close to 50:50 with Wario and I believe it's more like 40:60 in Falcon's favor or worse. I don't have any experience in fighting good falcons and only used to have problems with him. There are no good falcons in my area.

Ness I think is bad but my opinion shouldn't matter too much on ness. Wario loses neutral to ness in almost every way as far as I've seen.

I don't know why people posted Rosalina and Luma and Sonic being 50/50 Match-ups. I think they're doable, but at a high level of play they're most likely bad for Wario.

From my experience in melee, I notice people who tend to play a character ranked lower on the tier list tend to often blow up match-up considerations when their matchups against characters ranked higher on the tier list are doable or not bad.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Honestly though, I think it's useless trying to theorize the match-ups for wario in terms of solely how good or bad they are and why, as opposed to finding solutions to the problems Wario faces. How do you even consider a match-up for Wario? He outright loses neutral to many characters in the game (if you get away with chomp too much, the other person doesn't know what they're doing). How do you even consider Waft when considering a match-up. If you get the Waft, the match becomes so much more in your favor, but if not then you should be losing to characters with better neutral games and edge-guarding tools. Secondly, we are only getting one side of the story as most of you all are Wario mains, or secondary him. These probably aren't accurate and are just opinions of people at a low or intermediate level of play which doesn't say much.

 

[Axel311]

Honestly though, I think it's useless trying to theorize the match-ups for wario in terms of solely how good or bad they are and why, as opposed to finding solutions to the problems Wario faces. How do you even consider a match-up for Wario? He outright loses neutral to many characters in the game (if you get away with chomp too much, the other person doesn't know what they're doing). How do you even consider Waft when considering a match-up. If you get the Waft, the match becomes so much more in your favor, but if not then you should be losing to characters with better neutral games and edge-guarding tools. Secondly, we are only getting one side of the story as most of you all are Wario mains, or secondary him. These probably aren't accurate and are just opinions of people at a low or intermediate level of play which doesn't say much.

I don't think the goal is to necessarily get the rating "perfect". The discussion is what's most important, it's more of a learning thing. After all, nobody knows for sure and the meta is always changing. The goal is more to discuss the matchup, learn, share our thoughts, tactics and work through it together. No we aren't all top level players but that doesn't mean we can't try our best to figure out the matchups. Atleast that's how I've always thought about these matchup threads anyways. When considering waft I go with the assumption that I'll hit it an "average" number of times during any one set.

 

[lbrasz44]

In addressing the past few posts about considering waft in Wario's matchup, I think I have an idea as to how we can incorporate it in theorising a matchup. I am absolutely by no means a top level player that has merit stating this as essential to Wario's meta but for the sake of getting the theory out of my head while I have it I'm gonna put it out there. I believe that the waft should be a central point when concerning any of Wario's matchups since it really is utilised in most if not every single person's playstyle of the character in some form. Instead of analyzing a matchup with having the waft as merely another tool, I have a feeling that we should theorise Wario's matchups (at least from the perspective of the character) around the waft in general. Quite frankly, worrying about hitting the opponent with it isn't necessary as simply having it can potentially challenge an opponent's gameplay psychologically, no matter how slight. How I'd personally break down the framework of Wario's matchups surrounding the waft would be like this:

1. Our tools in the neutral within the first 110 seconds of the match (ie How should we approach the opponent, should we play defensively until then? How are they able to approach us? Should we even consider using the earlier levels of waft?).

2. Our tools as we hit the 110 mark in having full waft (ie how does this affect the opponents strategy against us? How can we approach the opponent with this and when we should use the waft? Does anything even change at all?)

3. Our tools afterwards (ie can we play more aggressively or defensively? How does the opponent account for this potential of being hit by it? Should we use it to get that first stock off the opponent we're having trouble taking or saving it for later? What do we do after hitting/missing? Do we revert back to the first part?)

As the waft is clearly our trump card that everyone and their mom knows about, we can divide a Wario matchup into various parts that can be analyzed in different ways around our style with this move, while considering more variables within such as our current stage control, whether we're already leading or not etc.





Of course feel free to tell me that the waft isn't that significant in Wario's playstyle whatsoever and I'm overthinking all of this haha.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I don't think the goal is to necessarily get the rating "perfect". The discussion is what's most important, it's more of a learning thing. After all, nobody knows for sure and the meta is always changing. The goal is more to discuss the matchup, learn, share our thoughts, tactics and work through it together. No we aren't all top level players but that doesn't mean we can't try our best to figure out the matchups. Atleast that's how I've always thought about these matchup threads anyways. When considering waft I go with the assumption that I'll hit it an "average" number of times during any one set.

I think rating matchups as 50:50, 40:60, or whatever is a waste of time is my point. I didn't complain about you guys trying to figure out match-ups. Quite honestly that's what I feel this thread should be entirely about. Not a place to express your feelings about solely whether Wario wins or loses a matchup. If anyone is to decide Wario's matchup results, it'll be by the top Wario players playing the best of the other characters in the game, not Waftboi420 saying he thinks Falcon v. Wario is 50:50 because his little bro who plays falcon goes even with him.

You need to reread my statement and see what I'm actually saying and not reply in a way that assumes I'm saying people shouldn't try to figure out matchups because they're not top Warios, because I never said that. If you guys want to do a rating system I'm not going to get in the way of that, but I personally believe it's going to be misleading, and top player results offer better qualitative data than this opinion thread which is completely half-sided. If your methodology is bad, the result will be bad as well. As you said, the meta is changing, so why not work on just that, the actual meta?

 

[Adrian Marin]

You know, your point would be a lot more valid if we were talking about other characters, but with such limited high-level Wario players in Smashboards, we would barely have any content at all. Plus, I know some of us are already participating in tournaments already and are striving to play at a higher level. I think we should just change the format for rating matchups to something more feasible and leave it at that, I say. To me, a vague wall of text-analysis of a matchup is probably a lot more accurate than what we're doing here. Arbitrarily jumping to conclusions only leads to inaccurate claims that many Wario players are blindly using as reference.

 

[Tayman]

i feel like falcon and wario trade alot of hits, but falcon comes out on top with his better combo games and killing easier. Landing the waft is needed in this match up bc if you don't the damage differences will get out of hand. 55:45 falcon

 

[Axel311]

I think rating matchups as 50:50, 40:60, or whatever is a waste of time is my point. I didn't complain about you guys trying to figure out match-ups. Quite honestly that's what I feel this thread should be entirely about. Not a place to express your feelings about solely whether Wario wins or loses a matchup. If anyone is to decide Wario's matchup results, it'll be by the top Wario players playing the best of the other characters in the game, not Waftboi420 saying he thinks Falcon v. Wario is 50:50 because his little bro who plays falcon goes even with him.

You need to reread my statement and see what I'm actually saying and not reply in a way that assumes I'm saying people shouldn't try to figure out matchups because they're not top Warios, because I never said that. If you guys want to do a rating system I'm not going to get in the way of that, but I personally believe it's going to be misleading, and top player results offer better qualitative data than this opinion thread which is completely half-sided. If your methodology is bad, the result will be bad as well. As you said, the meta is changing, so why not work on just that, the actual meta?

Even though we aren't top players, I think we need to attempt to lay down a number rating of some sort so that we can have an idea of where the character stands in each of them, even if they aren't 100% accurate. It's not like the ratings are set in stone as 100% for sure accurate. They're just theories that help you get an idea. And each player should think for themselves and be skeptical of everything, not take everything they read on here as truth (I think most players are smart enough to realize that). The ratings are only misleading if you're foolish enough to not think for yourself. There are definitely ratings I disgree with, and that's fine. Obviously the ratings set are done by a handful of anonymous players and shouldn't be given that much credibility. But I again do think it's important to have them, just so we can record the community's opinion. While they won't always be right, I do think the ratings are in the ballpark often enough to warrant them existing.

Also, being a top player doesn't always mean you are the most knowledgeable, and being an average player doesn't automatically mean you aren't knowledgeable. There's a lot more than knowledge that goes into being a top player.

I agree that it would be much better if we could get lots of top players active here but that's not going to happen so us average joe types just have to do the best we can.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I'd rather have no content than misleading content. Asking for opinions of low level or mid level players will only produce inaccurate results. A ranking system outside of consistent top player results I feel is a bad idea. The reason why top player results make a huge difference is that there might be many "Falcon vs. Marth" match-ups for Wario in smash 4. It may seem impossible at a low-mid level for Wario but it could get better at a higher level of play. Yes, there aren't a ton of top Wario players, but I don't see why being patient is so hard.

Also, I strongly believe knowledge separates the best from the worst. It's sort of why I wish we as a whole could just focus on actually playing the match-ups one at a time rather than say, "Eh, Mario has the better neutral, but uh Wario has waft, so I think Mario is slightly better, maybe 55-45." I'd like to know how many opinions go into these "match-up" decisions, 5? 10? 20? A community match-up list should probably be no less than 20 and should clearly have a disclaimer stating that it isn't representative of high level play as you just said there aren't many top Warios active here. That's my opinion and I know it doesn't sound great, but that's what I think is best.

 

[Axel311]

Back to the topic at hand...



Falcon probably wins, but I don't think it's that bad.

Bite is super annoying for falcon. It beats his arguably best approach option, dash grab. Bite also beats all his specials I believe. And also bike does as well I believe? Need to double check that later.

Wario can also gimp falcon well with dash attack at edge and dair off stage.

Falcon though can mess you up with upairs, bairs and any grabs. He'll combo the heck out of wario. And he's SOOO fast, he can definitely catch you if you're playing a cat and mouse game. And even though I feel wario has better neutral options, falcon makes up for it with his speed. He can bait and punish really well. He can fake a dash grab to bait us into performing a bite and then punish the endlag, for example.

I'm thinking this is slightly in falcon's favor even though bite is awesome in neutral against falcon. I feel like falcon's ability to more consistently KO us with multiple and safer options puts the matchup in his favor.

I think getting the kill with Wario is just more difficult even though we might be on par with falcon as far as our ability to rack up damage. We have to rely on gimps, laggy upsmashes or a clutch waft whereas he can kill us in multiple safer and more consistent ways on stage and off stage. Other than waft, I feel like retreating bair may be our only safe, reliable kill option on stage. Edgeguarding falcon to get a gimp I feel is super critical for us, whereas he can kill us anywhere.

55:45
Very possibly 60:40 but I don't think it's worse than that. I'll not comment on for now but it's probably in Ness's favor though.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Honestly though, I think it's useless trying to theorize the match-ups for wario in terms of solely how good or bad they are and why, as opposed to finding solutions to the problems Wario faces. How do you even consider a match-up for Wario? He outright loses neutral to many characters in the game (if you get away with chomp too much, the other person doesn't know what they're doing). How do you even consider Waft when considering a match-up. If you get the Waft, the match becomes so much more in your favor, but if not then you should be losing to characters with better neutral games and edge-guarding tools.

Well that's the thing with Waft: it's Wario's ace in the (arse)hole

He has massive comeback potential because of it. I'd say some of his matchups are significantly better than they should be simply because the existence of waft gives him a KO option at low %, and all it takes is one punish to get that KO. Furthermore, what was mentioned by lbrasz44 , how Waft can be used to pressure, is spot on: you don't even have to use it just because you have it, simply having it pressures the opponent. Players suddenly start playing more safely, they get more nervous, etc: no one wants to lose a lead at 50%, especially not in 2-stock.

Wario's bike somewhat complements his neutral game being bad against certain characters, since it gives them something to avoid and gives Wario a quick acceleration attack forward. Other than that, Wario wants opponents to run into his moves, which involves "playing gay," as Melee babies would say.

Secondly, we are only getting one side of the story as most of you all are Wario mains, or secondary him. These probably aren't accurate and are just opinions of people at a low or intermediate level of play which doesn't say much.

What can I say? I can tell you right now that the case is the same in the Fox boards, I see it be the same in nearly every other matchup board: most people who weight in with matchups (and in this forum) are not top players, very few are high-level. And honestly, it's unrealistic to expect these players to post all the time because they're always in the spotlight, or they get ridiculed / challenged by these low- / mid- levels you speak of.

--------------------

Some quick notes:

vs

- Wario's Bike can tank through the multi-hits of PK-fire when there is no rage involved. Wario himself can SDi out of PK fire fairly well because of his mobility. Ness might chase with a Dash attack instead of go for a grab after the PK fire.

- You can eat his thunder and fire, but it doesn't heal you, and it's generally not worth trying.

- If Ness goes for the ledge with PK-thunder2, you can hit him with Wario's Dash-attack before he snaps to the ledge. If you hit him with the late hitbox (the trip one), the kb will send Ness below the stage. If he has his double jump, you should watch out for any rising U-airs. If he lost it, you can B-air stage spike him if he tries to recover again with PK-thunder, or just get hit by it if you notice he's too low to shorten his recovery distance.

- Wario can air-dodge PK-thunders should he find himself offstage, and he can also tank them with the bike's front.

I'll be back with more on Ness as well as some matches with Falcon.[/QUOTE]

 

[Adrian Marin]

In my experience, Wario's Dtilt is a very safe spacing option against Captain Falcon, if not the safest. It is impossible to play it safe against Captain Falcon purely through mixups of Nair, Fair, Bite, etc. The frame advantage of Wario's Dtilt is enough to keep Captain Falcon at bay in my experience, but watch out for buffered jabs and the like; going for the followup after Dtilt every single time unless it's guaranteed is inadvisable. I may not be the highest level level Wario player yet, since I probably lack credibility, but here's a match against an aggressive Captain Falcon (at the last match.) At the very least, you'll see Captain Falcon having difficulty in approaching. I had a lot of tournament nerves because it was my second tour, so I wasted 2 or so wafts.

Dtilt is a safe spacing option and should condition the opponent to use different tools, such as faking approaches with Dash Dance to try and approach Wario. I don't think this is a bad matchup for Wario at all in the long run, as it isn't that difficult to get a waft against Captain Falcon in my experience, not to mention it's easy to gimp him as well. Wario probably shouldn't lose the neutral badly.

Just take my word with a grain of salt, as I lack necessary experience to perform an accurate assessment of this matchup.

 

[ElDood]

Just a note. 0-49%: You can bike through PK Fire.

50>% You can't.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Falcon probably wins, but I don't think it's that bad.

Bite is super annoying for falcon. It beats his arguably best approach option, dash grab. Bite also beats all his specials I believe. And also bike does as well I believe? Need to double check that later.

Wario can also gimp falcon well with dash attack at edge and dair off stage.

Falcon though can mess you up with upairs, bairs and any grabs. He'll combo the heck out of wario. And he's SOOO fast, he can definitely catch you if you're playing a cat and mouse game. And even though I feel wario has better neutral options, falcon makes up for it with his speed. He can bait and punish really well. He can fake a dash grab to bait us into performing a bite and then punish the endlag, for example.

I'm thinking this is slightly in falcon's favor even though bite is awesome in neutral against falcon. I feel like falcon's ability to more consistently KO us with multiple and safer options puts the matchup in his favor.

I think getting the kill with Wario is just more difficult even though we might be on par with falcon as far as our ability to rack up damage. We have to rely on gimps, laggy upsmashes or a clutch waft whereas he can kill us in multiple safer and more consistent ways on stage and off stage. Other than waft, I feel like retreating bair may be our only safe, reliable kill option on stage. Edgeguarding falcon to get a gimp I feel is super critical for us, whereas he can kill us anywhere.

This completely proves my point. But if the majority wants content like this, I won't try to reason against them any longer. I'll just focus on what actually matters. :D

 

[Axel311]

This completely proves my point. But if the majority wants content like this, I won't try to reason against them any longer. I'll just focus on what actually matters. :D

Then please tell me where I'm wrong. I welcome people proving to me that I am wrong since that helps me get better. I don't claim to know everything. I have no forum ego, I post here only to learn and get better. But just posting a message like this implying that I am wrong without explaining why doesn't help anyone.

But if you don't have anything to add and don't think these discussions are helpful to you then just stop reading this thread. I don't understand why you are still here if you don't find these discussions helpful.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I'm sorry if I offended.

I don't want to debate anything and these comments are brief as I have an essay to write. I will say I disagree with Wario having better tools for neutral against Falcon, up-smash is not good against Falcon, and I personally disagree with the philosophy of using chomp with the idea of them running into me, because I've tried it and it doesn't work on good players. Yeah bite beats a lot of Falcon's specials and dash grab, but if you shield his specials you'll get a better punish due to wario's low traction, and if you try falling with a chomp on anything but a shielding Falcon, and he dash attacks you or just waits you could get hard punished. There's a lot more I could say, but this obviously isn't the thread for me, and that's ok. I'm not trying to prove anything, but it seems atm there is no thread truly dedicated to finding solutions to match-ups and I was hoping this could be that thread if everyone was on board with that. So many people think "bite" beats everything therefore it's part of Wario's neutral against so many characters, and I highly disagree with that.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

I recently found a vid of me against a Falcon. Hope you'll enjoy it much as I do!

By the way Ssbm_Jag I don't think this thread is something for you man.

 

[Adrian Marin]

The bite is probably more useful when Wario is losing the neutral. A b-reverse Bite punishes those that attempt to abuse landing lag really well. The bite should be used almost exclusively for this purpose, as well as mixups in this matchup. Stages like Battlefield are definitely great in this matchup for abolishing Captain Falcon's great stage control. I don't recommend picking Final Destination, Duck Hunt, or any stage that gives Captain Falcon more utility. Platforms also have the added effect of making Wario's bike safer; as a result, Wario's neutral game gets a little better. Using the bike for edgeguarding and the like makes Wario's edgeguarding game more potent, especially since it's easy to set his bike against Captain Falcon. Wario may not win the neutral, but he doesn't do badly. At least he outright murders Captain Falcon's predictable recovery.

I'm sorry if I offended.

I don't want to debate anything and these comments are brief as I have an essay to write. I will say I disagree with Wario having better tools for neutral against Falcon, up-smash is not good against Falcon, and I personally disagree with the philosophy of using chomp with the idea of them running into me, because I've tried it and it doesn't work on good players. Yeah bite beats a lot of Falcon's specials and dash grab, but if you shield his specials you'll get a better punish due to wario's low traction, and if you try falling with a chomp on anything but a shielding Falcon, and he dash attacks you or just waits you could get hard punished. There's a lot more I could say, but this obviously isn't the thread for me, and that's ok. I'm not trying to prove anything, but it seems atm there is no thread truly dedicated to finding solutions to match-ups and I was hoping this could be that thread if everyone was on board with that. So many people think "bite" beats everything therefore it's part of Wario's neutral against so many characters, and I highly disagree with that.

I'd assume it's common sense to avoid randomly using the bite in the middle of the match, that'd be just too predictable, who even does that? You're making the assumption that the bite is detrimentally being used, even though its obvious utilities does not have to be elaborated on. Secondly, you seem really experienced and level-headed, but is this thread all about you? You should know that these things take some times to nurture and change. How could all of us average joes possibly adapt to a higher level of matchup analysis right now? Just because a point isn't expressed in a feasible and orderly way doesn't mean it completely lacks merit. Most of us can't even bring our imagination to words optimally. As Axel311 said, we don't have to take every post to heart anyway. Giving everyone a free voice is much better for metagame development because it encourages aspiring Wario mains to engage in intellectual discussion. While this isn't a valid reason for accepting us average joes to post here, at the very least, have a little faith in the Wario boards, we're all here to learn from each other.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I feel there are some misunderstandings. Firstly, I am not putting anyone down by saying we are not top Wario players, this is the truth. I'm not saying you guys cannot discuss how to overcome a match-up or that your ideas are useless, you guys are just saying I am. I also never said top players need to physically make the match-up chart here, I just said their matches are the best thing we have to discovering the closest rating possible, they create the materials. I never attacked the way anyone worded their ideas or advice, so I don’t know why you’re accusing me of that either.

“I'd assume it's common sense to avoid randomly using the bite in the middle of the match, that'd be just too predictable, who even does that?” Axel311 seemed to have been implying doing this by stating how it beats Falcon’s dash grab and specials. The only way you can stuff an approach like this is by literally reading your opponent and throwing it out mid-match. The alternative is using it on a shielding opponent or covering ledge. If a newcomer reads, “Bite beats Falcon’s best approach option” they might think it’s a good idea to abuse it in matches as an approach trap. Don’t say new players wouldn’t do this, because they would. I’ll admit it was bad of me to make fun of Axel’s advice, but I was upset he started turning my words in my original comment. Maybe Axel311 didn’t mean to imply throwing bite out mid-match? But the way he says “Bite really annoys Falcon” makes me think he did, simply because if you just used chomp on shield and on ledge like you would against anyone else, chomp really wouldn’t annoy Falcon more than it does anyone else in the cast.


In the end, these things are all subject to change, I'm saying it, you're saying, and Axel311 said it too, in fact he even said that most of the people shouldn’t be given much credibility. The only point I made was that I felt it would be more productive to discuss the actual match-ups, maybe even find things like % combos, edge-guarding options, or maybe test Wario's disjoints against the rest of the cast's, rather than focus on an arbitrary factor like a x:y rating. I wouldn't have encourage you guys to help lab out the match-ups if I didn't think you could do it.

Giving everyone a free voice is much better for metagame development because it encourages aspiring Wario mains to engage in intellectual discussion. While this isn't a valid reason for accepting us average joes to post here, at the very least, have a little faith in the Wario boards, we're all here to learn from each other.

Look, I didn't say people could not express their voice or engage in the discussion ( even if their opinion happens to be terrible), and it's not ok for you to say that I did just to make yourself come off as righteous. I just said that I personally feel opinions on positive or negative match-ups should not be considered from random opinions when we could wait for results, and that there are multiple factors that could lead to error. I'm completely fine if this thread is ok with the idea of accepting a wrong rating list; however, I never once said people should not be able to post ways they think Wario can win a match-up.

If I could just ask, how did the rating for Wario vs. Luigi come about? Reading the thread most people agreed it was in Luigi's favor but the rating says otherwise. I could completely believe that Wario wins, goes even, or loses, but how did it get to where Wario wins? Who makes the final call? I'll be honest, I'm just afraid someone might see that Wario loses to a lot of characters and may not want to play him, or maybe they see Wario beats luigi and when they lose they think Wario's not right for them.

 

[Axel311]

I wasn't attempting to give any kind of opinion as to how often you should use bite in the matchup. What I was trying to get across in my post is that bite beats most of falcon's specials. I think that's good info to know.

But to give my opinion, obviously you shouldn't use it randomly without cause because it can get you punished. I do agree that it's just a mix up. However, I do think generally we more often encounter situations in this matchup where bite can be useful compared to other matchups since it has priority over so many of falcon's approach options and specials. But you only use it as often as your opponent lets you get away with it. And the better the player the less you'll be using it from my local tourney and anther's ladder experiences.